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 Ignatius wrote:
This is getting sad at this point. Just because there are a greater number of posters disagreeing with Martel doesn't mean he is wrong. In fact, I agree with pretty much everything he's posted so far.

I've seen him post a statistical argument, which was waived away and as a result mostly makes any opinion based arguments largely irrelevant. gmaleron I'd like to see you refute the numbers that, contrary to what you assert, actually do have a large amount of impact on the game and theoreticals.

I'm also confused as to why the OP didn't make this a poll thread... Smacks of being afraid of what the answer might be to me.

Indeed. Martel might come off as a downer (probably due to horrid Riptide/Wave Serpent trauma in the past), but he is not actually wrong.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:
This is getting sad at this point. Just because there are a greater number of posters disagreeing with Martel doesn't mean he is wrong. In fact, I agree with pretty much everything he's posted so far.

I've seen him post a statistical argument, which was waived away and as a result mostly makes any opinion based arguments largely irrelevant. gmaleron I'd like to see you refute the numbers that, contrary to what you assert, actually do have a large amount of impact on the game and theoreticals.

I'm also confused as to why the OP didn't make this a poll thread... Smacks of being afraid of what the answer might be to me.

Indeed. Martel might come off as a downer (probably due to horrid Riptide/Wave Serpent trauma in the past), but he is not actually wrong.

Pretty much, he said everything I wanted to say... so I wouldn't really be adding to the conversation repeating the point.

The real best lists to deal with Riptides are the ones with vehicles with decent AVs and infantry models not worth very many points. It then becomes difficult for Riptides to have a large impact on the game. These lists can basically ignore them and so don't care how hard they are to kill.

But as soon as power armor or any other elite infantry enters the scene, they can pie plate 100-250 pts at a pop depending on the target. Losing 100-300 pts a shot is not sustainable, and so the Riptides must be silenced. And boy are they hard to silence. Especially for the very lists that they excel at blowing apart. That's why they run away with this comparison, imo.




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 gmaleron wrote:
Not ignoring statistics at all but I have played this game long enough and have NEVER seen a game, mine or other peoples where the statistical average was perfect for the entire game. I take it into account but don't rely heavily on it, and I only am arguing his points because the changes he is proposing are way to drastic and if you agree with that then so are you. If the Riptide got nerfed that badly then all other MC's including those from the "Mighty Imperium of Man" should to without question.

I've never given a specific numerical suggestion for the Riptide. So you don't know how bad or good any such proposition from me would be. I would support buffing the HBC to make it a more viable option. But the base chasis is just too good for its points, independent of weapon. The weapon issue is a separate issue to me. I like slots and options to be competitive, not for there to be a no-brainer pick like there is now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 gmaleron wrote:

Taffy17 wrote:
The riptide is very strong against most targets, but send it up against any other monstrous creature and it will get killed.

If it was to pick on something it's own size it would get owned.

Swarm armies can give a Riptide heavy army fits to, especially Demon puppy spam as there are so many points tied up in x3 MC's it really effects the armies shot output. Where the Dreadknight in particular excels with it being so cheap in points cost, and where both the Dread and Wraithknight excel thanks to being dual purpose. Why I have them ranked Dreadknight-Wraithiknight then Riptide based on overall performance and capabilities.

Trying to fulfill their "dual purpose" is what gets the Dreadknight and Wraithknight shot to pieces. Not mention the armor on the Wraithknight is a joke. Poison totally owns them. Poison weapons don't scratch a Riptide.

" unwilling to change up your tactics or strategy"

I already showed you how your solution is a total failure. It's a waste of 355 pts, and it is not a solid TAC option. In fact, you have given zero usable advice on what can actually silence a Riptide in a timely manner. Timely is important, because a few pie plates cripples an meq list.

" Tactica threads on how to beat them with Blood Angels "

I don't think anyone there knows, either. Yeah, there's the turn 1 assault formation, but that formation completely fails against other lists with HTH capability. Here's the fundamental problem: you can adjust your list deployment to compensate for drop pods, but I can't adjust my list to compensate for drawing a Tau opponent. If I could, I'd probably just use that formation every game against Tau.

"where the statistical average was perfect for the entire game"

It doesn't have to be for individual games. In fact, I've even used the phrase "over many games" a couple of times. My computations are true across many, many games played by many, many players. The local results you and I experience mean nothing. For every time you see a Riptide die to the plasma Sternguard, there are six or seven times they don't kill it, and probably one time where they do no wounds at all. That's what statistics tell you, not things about individual games.

"your continued crying about Riptides is annoying "

Riptides are annoying. I'd call it even, but I have to stare at them for hours at a time sometimes. You can ignore me. I can't ignore them.

Martel you seem to wish for a Tau gunline/Riptide that's weak enough so you can get enough Plasma armed dudes in Rapid Fire range (12 inches) to kill the Riptide.

If that were the case, how do you think such a list would fare if instead of your merry Plasmagun marines riding in ther Rhinos it was facing a bunch (10-12) of TWC or Necron Wraiths, which are faster, more resilient and more deadly once they get inside those 12 inches?

Also, you seem fixated on the Riptide with FnP who novas every round for 3+ inv. save, despite a singificant number of Tau players (AFAIK), especially at top level not running FnP and/or not nova-ing every round due to the risks involved. I however agree there is a problem with the IA Riptide that it doesn't need to use the Nova for offense (HBC Riptide hits like a wet rag without Nova).

I also think you're greatly exagerrating the impact a Riptide has on the game, unless your list is foot marines. Most marines that aren't using Drop Pods should be in Rhinos. An IA Riptide cannot pop a Rhino at range in a round unless you have very good rolls (either it explodes or you hit all your 3 shots and roll 4+ for pen). HYMP Broadsides only have 36" range , and using Railsides or Railheads means the Tau player already is handicapping himself.

Also, have you tried going for the markerlights? A riptide without Markerlights has just a BS3 S8/9 AP2 pie plate, non-cover ignoring.

LordBlades wrote:
Martel you seem to wish for a Tau gunline/Riptide that's weak enough so you can get enough Plasma armed dudes in Rapid Fire range (12 inches) to kill the Riptide.

If that were the case, how do you think such a list would fare if instead of your merry Plasmagun marines riding in ther Rhinos it was facing a bunch (10-12) of TWC or Necron Wraiths, which are faster, more resilient and more deadly once they get inside those 12 inches?

Also, you seem fixated on the Riptide with FnP who novas every round for 3+ inv. save, despite a singificant number of Tau players (AFAIK), especially at top level not running FnP and/or not nova-ing every round due to the risks involved. I however agree there is a problem with the IA Riptide that it doesn't need to use the Nova for offense (HBC Riptide hits like a wet rag without Nova).

I also think you're greatly exagerrating the impact a Riptide has on the game, unless your list is foot marines. Most marines that aren't using Drop Pods should be in Rhinos. An IA Riptide cannot pop a Rhino at range in a round unless you have very good rolls (either it explodes or you hit all your 3 shots and roll 4+ for pen). HYMP Broadsides only have 36" range , and using Railsides or Railheads means the Tau player already is handicapping himself.

Also, have you tried going for the markerlights? A riptide without Markerlights has just a BS3 S8/9 AP2 pie plate, non-cover ignoring.

JUST a S8/9 AP2 pie plate? SERIOUSLY?! JUST?! Are we really at a point where that is considered not very good in this game? BS3 doesn't seem to hurt IG all that much with all of their pie plates.

Martel is right, he presented the math and I don't think there is much more to say on the matter.

I could shoot 5 lasguns at a Riptide and kill it potentially. That does not mean that I am going to expect, plan, or rely on that EVER happening. 40k IS a dice game but to say that averages have no bearing on balancing units is just idiocy plain and simple, THAT mindset is why we have a game that is currently so unbalanced that the game can easily be over in the list building. 7th was looking like a step in the right direction with balance betweens codices, it wasn't PERFECT because perfect is impossible but we should strive for better all the time in everything.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Riptide could do to lose a wound. The most telling point to me is that in almost two years, no matter what the points level, every single Tau army I've seen, from pickup game to top tournament, 750pt games to 2000pt games, includes at least one. It might as well be a "1+" selection.

In defense of the Riptide, it does have the single coolest model in the game. Why wouldn't you want to play with it?


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 Sidstyler wrote:



Which is a problem with 6th/7th more than Tau, Ignores Cover is way too prevalent. That said, as long as it's in the game then Tau should have access to it, being the only dedicated shooting army.

Fixed. As I understand it, the Tau are the only Codex with 0 effective melee units. Given that we're the only army guaranteed to fold in CC no matter what we're fighting, we have to be able to kill things in cover to win games. Period.

Arbiter_Shade wrote:

LordBlades wrote:
Martel you seem to wish for a Tau gunline/Riptide that's weak enough so you can get enough Plasma armed dudes in Rapid Fire range (12 inches) to kill the Riptide.

If that were the case, how do you think such a list would fare if instead of your merry Plasmagun marines riding in ther Rhinos it was facing a bunch (10-12) of TWC or Necron Wraiths, which are faster, more resilient and more deadly once they get inside those 12 inches?

Also, you seem fixated on the Riptide with FnP who novas every round for 3+ inv. save, despite a singificant number of Tau players (AFAIK), especially at top level not running FnP and/or not nova-ing every round due to the risks involved. I however agree there is a problem with the IA Riptide that it doesn't need to use the Nova for offense (HBC Riptide hits like a wet rag without Nova).

I also think you're greatly exagerrating the impact a Riptide has on the game, unless your list is foot marines. Most marines that aren't using Drop Pods should be in Rhinos. An IA Riptide cannot pop a Rhino at range in a round unless you have very good rolls (either it explodes or you hit all your 3 shots and roll 4+ for pen). HYMP Broadsides only have 36" range , and using Railsides or Railheads means the Tau player already is handicapping himself.

Also, have you tried going for the markerlights? A riptide without Markerlights has just a BS3 S8/9 AP2 pie plate, non-cover ignoring.

JUST a S8/9 AP2 pie plate? SERIOUSLY?! JUST?! Are we really at a point where that is considered not very good in this game? BS3 doesn't seem to hurt IG all that much with all of their pie plates.

Martel is right, he presented the math and I don't think there is much more to say on the matter.

I could shoot 5 lasguns at a Riptide and kill it potentially. That does not mean that I am going to expect, plan, or rely on that EVER happening. 40k IS a dice game but to say that averages have no bearing on balancing units is just idiocy plain and simple, THAT mindset is why we have a game that is currently so unbalanced that the game can easily be over in the list building. 7th was looking like a step in the right direction with balance betweens codices, it wasn't PERFECT because perfect is impossible but we should strive for better all the time in everything.

It's good, but not amazing. A Leman Russ has a S8 AP3 with Ordnance and no Gets Hot at 72" for 150 points. A Knight Paladin (which is a unit any IoM army can field) has 2 such blasts at bs 4 for 375 points in addition to being arguably more survivable to shooting and having way better melee potential than 2 Riptides. Now, Riptide blast is AP2, but I can't really think of many units with a 2+ save that are worth fielding and are not multi-wound MCs (only Tau Broadsides off the top of my head). So yeah, in my book a 200+ point unit that only brings a bs3 s8 pie crust lateto the table (and that's all a Ripide without Markerlights does) is decent, but in no way great.
The root of my problem with Martel's stance as a Tau player: he wants arguably one of the 2 best units in the Tau codex brought down to the level where it can be handled without much trouble by an average list from an IMO below average codex. If that were to happen though, what is Tau to do vs. good lists from good codexes?

Now I can empathize with feeling the codex you want to play falls short of the enemy codex, but.one has to remember BA is IoM. If you want a more competitive list you can ally in any of the good stuff: cent stars, grav bikes, knights, you name it. Tau on the other hand has to stand mostly on its own.

So compared to an av 14/13/11, bs3 box, that doesn't have a jet pack, doesn't remain at full operational capacity as it loses 'wounds', or we can compare it to the super heavy walker that costs even more and has a str D attack in melee.

After thinking about it, I can see why the Riptide is only decent when compared to them.

Also, why shouldn't a tac army from any codex not be able to handle any unit, and why should you have to ally in things that aren't the army you want to play just to deal with one unit?

 Mozzyfuzzy wrote:
So compared to an av 14/13/11, bs3 box, that doesn't have a jet pack, doesn't remain at full operational capacity as it loses 'wounds', or we can compare it to the super heavy walker that costs even more and has a str D attack in melee.

After thinking about it, I can see why the Riptide is only decent when compared to them.

Also, why shouldn't a tac army from any codex not be able to handle any unit, and why should you have to ally in things that aren't the army you want to play just to deal with one unit?

When judging the balance of a codex, do you not take into account alk the rules the respective army has? One of the rules for IoM armies is that they are Battle Brothers with any other IoM army. Why do you think that specific rule should be ignored whwn discussing the balance of an IoM codex vs. a xeno codex with no Battle Brothers.

Also, as a personal opinion, which I've een echoed by quite a few people, TAC is dead.

Yes and you're taking that too far saying IoM is one Codex. People didn't buy models to play SPACE WOLVES AND BLOOD ANGELS W/ IMPERIAL GUARD!

They paid for one faction they liked.

 Quickjager wrote:
Yes and you're taking that too far saying IoM is one Codex. People didn't buy models to play SPACE WOLVES AND BLOOD ANGELS W/ IMPERIAL GUARD!

They paid for one faction they liked.

Then if you balance Space Marineds, Grey Knights and Imperial Guard to each hold their own vs xeno codices and then people start showing up with units cherry picked fir synergy from all 3 codexes how well do you think that works for the xenos? For mechanical purposes IoM is 80% one big codex.

Like it or not, the number and quality of allies is a factor in how good an army is.

Yea and they already addressed that in competitive play, so who cares? What you're talking about hurts two people

1. New Players: Your codex is weak? But you already got the models? Shell out another $150 for models you don't like.
2. Fluffy Players: Your list is themed? You like the lore? But you want to have a fighting chance? Nope.

Your attitude is horrible to the people who play for fun, you know how many tournies I've been in? One local; ten people tops. I'm not the competitive player, but I'm forced to play people who are more often than not. Yea I can ask them to turn down their game, they do! But I feel bad for limiting them from playing the mindset they want to. The Competitve scene has already shown it will address issues that "ruin" the game, they limit sources, no Unbound, Invisibility nerfs, they all happen anyway whether its EN DA RULEZ or not.

As expected the thread has dissolved into Riptide hate.

Anyway...

Some thoughts on the Riptide in combinations with Tau in general.

Tau are the only army in the game (period) that plays correctly.
40k is, for all intents and purposes, medieval warfare in a sci-fi setting with some bits added on.
In a medieval war setting archers were one of the best units because they forced the enemy to approach them and could move away.
In this analogy replace archers with Tau,
A gun-line army might be no fun to play against but it will always be the best strategy on an open map.

That being said the table should be more a kin to a city setting. This forces the Tau player to move into other positions.

I would like to point out this is a fault of the game, it wants to be medieval war in space and therefore Tau will always have the best strategy to fight, unless the game changes (we seem to generally accept this as way of playing the game because the rules somewhat dictate that)

Moving on.

The Riptide.

I appreciate all the hate aimed at them, they are hardy and have range.

My opinion for Martel (not to single you out but you made a fair few comments) would be, 'If you cant kill the Riptide effectively, then concentrate on the other parts of the army.'

This will, regardless of the Riptide, have a dramatic impact on the Tau army.

A possible suggestion here would be to use cheaper squads in a semi-suicidal fashion.

For example, a SM command Squad with 5 flamers in a drop-pod is 160 points. This will wipe out most squads Tau have access too, through sheer number of wounds.
For 180 you can have the same with meltaguns and ruin any tank or T4 multiwound model.
In both cases it's on your terms.

I wouldn't honestly recommend sternguard with combi-plasmas as Riptide hunters, use their hellfire ammo.

As for BA specifically.
I saw their rules recently and can say they're not shy in good stuff.

Assault squads with meltas
Command Squads with specials and Jump-packs

Use those jump-packing specials to their fullest.

Not saying the Riptide will necessarily go down, but definitely take this advice and stop fixating on it.

On it's own the riptide wont be as much of a threat.

Guys, is anyone going to talk about the Dreadknight or Wraithknight? I get that there are many Tau haters in this thread but discuss the other aspects too.

LordBlades wrote:

It's good, but not amazing. A Leman Russ has a S8 AP3 with Ordnance and no Gets Hot at 72" for 150 points. A Knight Paladin (which is a unit any IoM army can field) has 2 such blasts at bs 4 for 375 points in addition to being arguably more survivable to shooting and having way better melee potential than 2 Riptides. Now, Riptide blast is AP2, but I can't really think of many units with a 2+ save that are worth fielding and are not multi-wound MCs (only Tau Broadsides off the top of my head). So yeah, in my book a 200+ point unit that only brings a bs3 s8 pie crust lateto the table (and that's all a Ripide without Markerlights does) is decent, but in no way great.

I find this preposterous. How many threads you ever see anywhere complaining how LRBT is overpowered? None, because almost any list has the tools to deal with a Leman Russ.

Also, AP2 is pretty big deal. Sure enough, Terminators aren't worth fielding (in large part because AP2 blast units like Riptide), and bonus damage to vehicles is not that relevant since vehicles tend to suck (again, in large part because units like Riptide are so superior to vehicles), however, many IC's rely on 2+ armour save and AP2 blast can insta-gib many of them.

LordBlades wrote:

The root of my problem with Martel's stance as a Tau player: he wants arguably one of the 2 best units in the Tau codex brought down to the level where it can be handled without much trouble by an average list from an IMO below average codex. If that were to happen though, what is Tau to do vs. good lists from good codexes?

Here's a crazy suggestion: maybe the rest of the Tau codex should be brought to the level where they're not dependent on one or two units?

LordBlades wrote:

Now I can empathize with feeling the codex you want to play falls short of the enemy codex, but.one has to remember BA is IoM. If you want a more competitive list you can ally in any of the good stuff: cent stars, grav bikes, knights, you name it. Tau on the other hand has to stand mostly on its own.

See, this is a problem with unit like Riptide. You have to list-tailor against it. You don't have to list-tailor to defeat Terminators, Leman Russes, Carnifexes or anything else pro-Riptide crowd always whips out in ill-fitting comparisons with Riptide.

"Here's a crazy suggestion: maybe the rest of the Tau codex should be brought to the level where they're not dependent on one or two units?"

Are you suggesting a buff to Tau? IoM players will not be happy with that

Dreadknight excels at close range, where does that put it? In front of all your guns.

Wraithknight excels at close range, where does that put it? In front of all your guns.

Riptide excels at long range, where does that put it? Out of range all your guns (other than 48"+ weapons).

All are built around a durable chassis, 2 have options to improve durability, 1 of which can remove it from play, the other will lose a single wound.

Which one sends high strength-low ap large blast templates down field?

Can you see where this is going?

SGTPozy wrote:
Guys, is anyone going to talk about the Dreadknight or Wraithknight? I get that there are many Tau haters in this thread but discuss the other aspects too.

I've already talked about them. They show up and die. If BA can kill these units, I'm SURE that more potent codices can as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mozzyfuzzy wrote:
Dreadknight excels at close range, where does that put it? In front of all your guns.

Wraithknight excels at close range, where does that put it? In front of all your guns.

Riptide excels at long range, where does that put it? Out of range all your guns (other than 48"+ weapons).

All are built around a durable chassis, 2 have options to improve durability, 1 of which can remove it from play, the other will lose a single wound.

Which one sends high strength-low ap large blast templates down field?

Can you see where this is going?

This. So much this. If Tau players can't understand why this is maddening, I'm sorry.

"'If you cant kill the Riptide effectively, then concentrate on the other parts of the army.'"

With all due respect, I've tried this, but I just can't let these things run around and nuke me every turn. I take a lot of losses even getting into assault with Tau, who fold in one turn of combat, which is the perfect time to drop yet ANOTHER template on top of my unit. It's a lose/lose/lose proposition. Tau are weak in HTH, but they are so weak that they can game out the outcome perfectly and capitalize on it. I honestly wish tac marines were just as bad in HTH as fire warriors so they would also reliably lose just like them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SGTPozy wrote:

"Here's a crazy suggestion: maybe the rest of the Tau codex should be brought to the level where they're not dependent on one or two units?"

Are you suggesting a buff to Tau? IoM players will not be happy with that

I already suggested a buff to the HBC. I suspect other units in the Tau codex could use something since I never see them. Ever.

Martel, there's something that you need to understand; not everything is about you!

SGTPozy wrote:

"Here's a crazy suggestion: maybe the rest of the Tau codex should be brought to the level where they're not dependent on one or two units?"

Are you suggesting a buff to Tau? IoM players will not be happy with that

No, I am suggesting balancing the Tau. Obviously, that would include nerffing currently too powerful units, like Riptide.

Minimum change to Riptide would be T7 3+ W4. Better change would be making it to AV13 walker with 4 HP.

Backfire wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:

"Here's a crazy suggestion: maybe the rest of the Tau codex should be brought to the level where they're not dependent on one or two units?"

Are you suggesting a buff to Tau? IoM players will not be happy with that

No, I am suggesting balancing the Tau. Obviously, that would include nerffing currently too powerful units, like Riptide.

Minimum change to Riptide would be T7 3+ W4. Better change would be making it to AV13 walker with 4 HP.

Or the most suitable nerf which would be to prevent it from buying a FNP save and change the 3++ to a 4++. That would make it more like the (apparently) balanced Dreadknight.

SGTPozy wrote:

Backfire wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:

"Here's a crazy suggestion: maybe the rest of the Tau codex should be brought to the level where they're not dependent on one or two units?"

Are you suggesting a buff to Tau? IoM players will not be happy with that

No, I am suggesting balancing the Tau. Obviously, that would include nerffing currently too powerful units, like Riptide.

Minimum change to Riptide would be T7 3+ W4. Better change would be making it to AV13 walker with 4 HP.

Or the most suitable nerf which would be to prevent it from buying a FNP save and change the 3++ to a 4++. That would make it more like the (apparently) balanced Dreadknight.

Yeah, that would bring it much more in line with other MCs for sure. It would still be devastating, but actually be vulnerable. I'd also remove the wound from failing Nova charge and the silly gets hot shenanigans to compensate so Tau players only have worry about incoming damage.

Boniface wrote:
As expected the thread has dissolved into Riptide hate.

A gun-line army might be no fun to play against but it will always be the best strategy on an open map.

That being said the table should be more a kin to a city setting. This forces the Tau player to move into other positions.

I would like to point out this is a fault of the game, it wants to be medieval war in space and therefore Tau will always have the best strategy to fight, unless the game changes (we seem to generally accept this as way of playing the game because the rules somewhat dictate that)

Moving on.

Agree 100%.

The Riptide.

I appreciate all the hate aimed at them, they are hardy and have range.

My opinion for Martel (not to single you out but you made a fair few comments) would be, 'If you cant kill the Riptide effectively, then concentrate on the other parts of the army.'

This will, regardless of the Riptide, have a dramatic impact on the Tau army.

Here is were things get a bit off. If you ignore the Riptide and concentrate on the other parts of the army, you are allowing a highly, highly effective weapons system to drop pie plates of DOOooM!!! every turn on your army. To think that you will be able to effectively engage other parts of his army while ignoring this very capable weapon system is fool hardy at best.

A possible suggestion here would be to use cheaper squads in a semi-suicidal fashion.

For example, a SM command Squad with 5 flamers in a drop-pod is 160 points. This will wipe out most squads Tau have access too, through sheer number of wounds.
For 180 you can have the same with meltaguns and ruin any tank or T4 multiwound model.
In both cases it's on your terms.

This is making more then a few assumptions, and I'd point out that a 12 model Fire Warrior Squad is still cheaper then either of these options, and you can only shoot at one squad at a time. Perhaps you could kill a whole squad of Fire Warriors in one turn, but the rest of his army will kill that Command Squad. Trying this kind of tactic on Crisis Suits could work, but... well, they are pretty resilient. Or the Riptide will just drop a pie plate of DOOooom! on it and that will be that.

I wouldn't honestly recommend sternguard with combi-plasmas as Riptide hunters, use their hellfire ammo.

I have to chuckle at this one. Sure, you could do that, and hopefully get within double tap range. Wanna crunch numbers? 10 Sternguard with Hellfire Rounds double tapping at a Riptide: 20 shots, 13.3 hit, 11.08 wound, 9.23 are armor saved, leaving the Riptide with 1.85 wounds. You could round that up to 2 if you want. Tau player's turn: Pie Plate of DOOOooom! Your 275 point unit managed to get 2 wounds on a Riptide. Do you have three more units of Sternguard in Drop Pods to throw at it?

As for BA specifically.
I saw their rules recently and can say they're not shy in good stuff.

Assault squads with meltas
Command Squads with specials and Jump-packs

Use those jump-packing specials to their fullest.

Not saying the Riptide will necessarily go down, but definitely take this advice and stop fixating on it.

Jump packs? Really? It's like throwing good money after bad. I think the Drop Pod Suicide Squads have a better chance of doing something here then any unit with Jump Packs moving ACROSS THE BOARD where the ENTIRE TAU ARMY can shoot at them. Oh, you mean Deepstrike them close? So they can be in a nice, tightly grouped circle of hugging Power Armor for the Pie Plate of DOOOooom!? Also, they don't pack enough Melta or Fusion guns to even put a dent in the Riptide. I guess you also forgot how easy it is for the Tau to get Intercept on the guys that just Deepstrike'd onto the table...

On it's own the riptide wont be as much of a threat.

So your general strategy here is to ignore the Riptide while engaging the rest of the Tau army. In theory, and from an arm chair quarterback sort of way, this makes 100% sense. In actual game play, it doesn't work. You cannot ignore something that is throwing out 3 large blast template at S7 AP 2 anywhere on the board during every shooting phase. One well-placed template can remove an entire squad of MEQ, and he has three shots with it. In this case, a low BS actually works in his favor as it can scatter onto other units.

Martel732 speaks the truth of things when it comes to a Riptide. He has supported it with irrefutable math. There is no Silver Bullet that can be used against it as the problem can't be approached in a vacuum. That is, it's never "just a Riptide", it's a Riptide with another Riptide and some Crisis suits, along with a whole bunch of Fire Warriors. The other army has a lot of stuff too, but it's all about the effectiveness of the units, and point for point, a Riptide is one of the most effective units in the game. It usually takes something that costs x2 the points of a Riptide to destroy a Riptide. The fact that you can't reliably get that many points of anything close enough to a Riptide to be effective becomes another problem. Each meta is different, and maybe the Tau player in any particular meta is a poor or unlucky player, and the Drop Pod Suicide Squad works against him. A good Tau player? Will never let it happen.

SGTPozy wrote:
Martel, there's something that you need to understand; not everything is about you!

At the same time, I am an IoM player and I have suggested buffs. Sorry if that is inconvenient for you. It's automatically about me when you start making blanket statements about IoM players.

Also another fun fact: invisibility is broken. We all know this. The same plasma Sternguard squad we are talking about inflicts 1.85 wounds on invisible centurions with no source of FNP. This is arguably a better outcome than the 2.7 W dealt to the Riptide, since 1.8 W has a solid chance of taking out a Centurion. It's also flabbergasting to me that the Riptide takes *less than 50%* more wounds from plasma Sternguard than INVISIBLE Centurions. Visible Centurions are getting massacred by this attack. Also note that invisible Centurions are a very expensive squad as well.

" Drop Pod Suicide Squad works against him. A good Tau player? Will never let it happen."

Drop pod suicide squads don't work that well against my BA; I can't imagine how they are owning Tau. Good job! You just nuked a Rhino! Maybe a predator on a good day. Now die.

"As for BA specifically.
I saw their rules recently and can say they're not shy in good stuff.

Assault squads with meltas
Command Squads with specials and Jump-packs

Use those jump-packing specials to their fullest. "

If I were actually gaming for Tau, I'd drop a ton of Frag cannon Furioso dreadnoughts in drop pods all over the place. Dreadnoughts have the privilege of being immune to pulse rifles and not being vulnerable to the pie plate of doom.

Not only do I not have the models for this, this is in no way a TAC list. We are back to hard core list tailoring. Jump pack units are just going to be massacred, as pointed out above. Yeah, I can ally in a Tiggystar and be like every other marine list. If I need a special character to counter something, that's a bad sign.

"A possible suggestion here would be to use cheaper squads in a semi-suicidal fashion. "

One day, Xeno generals will learn that suicide tactics for expensive Astartes models is not the path to victory. Well, at least not for the Astartes player. In some ways, the drop pod is available to lists that can make the least effective use of it. I'd much rather drop pod in guardsmen with special weapons. The cheaper the better. Because the way the game plays now, power armor might as well be flak armor.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/607894.page
Check out all Marine lists in the top 10 of BAO that use the TiggyStar (Spoiler alert: None that can be seen in the link). This isn't an isolated incident. A quick google check of the competitive scene of 2014 will show that the almighty Triptide battle list isn't that almighty, even when facing off against Space Marines.

Maybe your BA codex is sorely underpowered. Maybe you're doing it wrong. Who knows. But I would think if you spent half as much energy TheoryHammering how to kill a Riptide successfully as you do the opposite, you might have better results.

Would BA assault marines really be much better off vs wraith or dread knights?

Sure the riptide kills them better at range (it should still only manage 2-4 kills a turn realistically if you are expecting a pie plate), but the other two will quite handily beat their own points worth of assault marines and then some.

Although the knights have to expose themselves more to fulfill their role, this is not entirely a bad thing: weapons shot at the most durable units in your army are not shooting your other stuff. If all those heavy weapons are going at the wraithknight, then those waveserpents are going to have a good time.

Being further forward also lets them control the board much more than a riptide, and also potentially gives them the possibility of getting more objectives and linebreaker. Having a giant hovering MC in the middle of board who can jump 12 inches and punch out most targets can really limit the movement of the opposition, or tie up those scoring units if it is late in the game.

One point not yet mentioned is how 7th has promoted mech armies once again, and the impact it has on the three mentioned models.

An iontide is statistically not going to kill a rhino a turn. If presented with a heavy mech list its worth is greatly diminished. On the other hand the knights are a massive threat to all vehicles, and if they do take out a transport with their shooting, then they can make use of the assault phase too.

All 3 are powerful units, and their potential to be the best changes depending on the army opposing them.

I've heard enough about riptides though, and pretty much everything that can be said has been done so.

I'd rather hear people's thoughts between the wraith and dread knights as they are much more similar in nature.

I personally find the wraithknight to be the superior choice, however I face them a lot, whereas I rarely see dreadknights.
The T8 and 6 wounds really makes me favour the wraith though.

There's no denying the Wraithknight is more versatile, but it pays dearly for that with its vastly inferior save. The bottom line to me is that it's much easier to trump the Wraithknight's defenses than either Riptide or Dreadknight.

The role of the Dreadknight makes it the weakest of the three. It's basically a glorified furioso dreadnought that is an MC instead of a walker.

I don't expect BA ASM to beat any of these MCs in any way. Because I accept that ASM are terrible.

"Having a giant hovering MC in the middle of board"

How long do you expect it to stay there when it is a squishier target than WS to many units?

"But I would think if you spent half as much energy TheoryHammering how to kill a Riptide successfully as you do the opposite, you might have better results."

It's one and the same. As soon as I find a method that doesn't fail, I've found one that succeeds.

Boniface wrote:
As expected the thread has dissolved into Riptide hate.

Basically this, typical people who claim they cant beat something so it must be overpowerd, and as usual when shown examples from their own Codex that are on equal or even stronger footing they are ignored because god forbid if their stuff cant be overpowered. I can agree with that the Ion Accelerator needs a point raise but not anything else as when compared to other MC's who have equal to or even nastier abilities it is balanced. Not at all trying to derail this thread but its kind of sad that peoples only answer to the Riptide is to nerf it to the point it is useless. Also treating the IoM Codex's as one army is not out of the question as because they can all be Battle Brothers it is a logical and reasonable way to go about things especially since so many people use/abuse it.

Back to the other 2 the Dreadknight is not the weakest of the three based on one good reason, it is the CHEAPEST out of the three allowing you take more of them and to have more parts in your army to support them. In regards to the Wraithiknights taking x3 of them is dirty because they are the most durable and well rounded out of the three as not only are they as fast as a Dreadknight but combined with their high toughness, good firepower, durability in both shooting and CC, solid save and access to some of the best supporting units around is what makes them one of if not the nastiest out of the three.

"Having a giant hovering MC in the middle of board"

How long do you expect it to stay there when it is a squishier target than WS to many units?

First off, by simply being there it effects the opponents game and forces them to react. There is value in this.

Secondly, squishier is relative. With T8 and 6W it can last an incredibly long time, and makes for the perfect distraction carnifex, especially if you find a way to give it a cover or invulnerable save.
You seem to be implying that a wraithknight will go down quickly. I put it to you that very few armies can deal with a couple of wraithknights in a timely fashion. A wraithknight out of cover will usually take at least 12 krak missiles to kill, double that if your board has any sizable ruins.

Whilst you are trying to do this, they control the middle of the board, potentially limiting access to objectives, and give the serpents time to take out the heavy weapons/ enemy scoring potential.

vastly inferior save.

T8 counts for a lot with regards to survivability. Plasma for example is twice as likely to get a wound on a riptide or dreadknight.
Poison is bad news of course, but on the plus side gravguns hurt a little less.

 gmaleron wrote:

Boniface wrote:
As expected the thread has dissolved into Riptide hate.

Basically this, typical people who claim they cant beat something so it must be overpowerd, and as usual when shown examples from their own Codex that are on equal or even stronger footing they are ignored because god forbid if their stuff cant be overpowered. I can agree with that the Ion Accelerator needs a point raise but not anything else as when compared to other MC's who have equal to or even nastier abilities it is balanced. Not at all trying to derail this thread but its kind of sad that peoples only answer to the Riptide is to nerf it to the point it is useless. Also treating the IoM Codex's as one army is not out of the question as because they can all be Battle Brothers it is a logical and reasonable way to go about things especially since so many people use/abuse it.

Back to the other 2 the Dreadknight is not the weakest of the three based on one good reason, it is the CHEAPEST out of the three allowing you take more of them and to have more parts in your army to support them. In regards to the Wraithiknights taking x3 of them is dirty because they are the most durable and well rounded out of the three as not only are they as fast as a Dreadknight but combined with their high toughness, good firepower, durability in both shooting and CC, solid save and access to some of the best supporting units around is what makes them one of if not the nastiest out of the three.

40k 7e is a shooty game, especially in pickup games where it's rarely urban, and where terrain is lighter -- so superior shooty units are generally better than superior melee units. Riptides are one of the best shooty units in the game.

People hate all the MCs of all the factions other than their own that are highly damaging and/or very durable. And, people especially hate units or groups of models that are so good that they are must-takes. If you play against Tau, 95% of the time, there will be Riptides. That's not the Tau player's fault. I don't think it's possible to have a thread about Riptides or Wave Serpents where there isn't Riptide or Wave Serpent hate. If you don't like seeing criticism about your favorite, must-have model, avoid these threads

It's totally fair to say that one faction or another is better based on either allies or available armies (just like Riptides are much better with support). However, the topic wasn't Eldar vs GK vs Tau.

OTOH, I don't see how those two units and Taudar in general can survive their 7e codices without a nerf.