Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

"With T8 and 6W it can last an incredibly long time"

Not if you shoot it with the right weapons. That's my problem with the Riptide. There ARE no right weapons other than Tiggystar grav cents I guess.

"A wraithknight out of cover will usually take at least 12 krak missiles to kill, double that if your board has any sizable ruins. "

That's incredibly fast compared to a Riptide or Dreadknight. I'm saying the Wraithknight goes down fast compared to 2+ save MCs, not compared to chumpo infantry. But that's what we're comparing in this thread.

"I don't see how those two units and Taudar in general can survive their 7e codices without a nerf"

Well the Dreadknight got better in their 7th edition codex... But then again, they are IoM so they do have to be 'the best'.

SGTPozy wrote:
"I don't see how those two units and Taudar in general can survive their 7e codices without a nerf"

Well the Dreadknight got better in their 7th edition codex... But then again, they are IoM so they do have to be 'the best'.

It's also debatable whether Necrons as a whole got worse or actually better in 7th edition as well, so surprises might happen.

That's incredibly fast compared to a Riptide or Dreadknight.

You yourself stated "if you use the right weapons", the exact same thing can be said of any of the riptide.

Once ap2 weapons get involved, especially lower strength ones, the wraithknight becomes much tougher than the other 2 options.

Tau plasma for example. It would take 18 str 6 plasma hits to bring down a riptide using its 5+ invulnerable save. The wraith knight needs 54 of the same shots, even without a cover or invulnerable save.
It is not until str 9 ap 2 weapons that the wraithknight starts to take more wounds per shot than the riptide, but even then it still has 2 more wounds so the received comparative damage is overall fairly even.

Against non AP1-3 weapons, the riptide and the wraithknight perform equally well vs str 7, the riptide is better vs str 8+, and the wraith knight is better vs str 6 or less.
Again, the wraithknight has 2 more wounds to consider.

So, saying there are no good weapons against the riptide, but that there are good weapons against the wraithknight, is a strange thing to say.

They both have counters, but some of them are different.

"So, saying there are no good weapons against the riptide, but that there are good weapons against the wraithknight, is a strange thing to say. "

I can list several weapons that are good against the Wraithknight: Lascannon, krak missiles, anything poison, bright lances, dark lances. Can you list some that are actually GOOD against the riptide? Generating wounds means very little if it saving 89% or 78% of them.

We can go back and look at our drop Sternguard vs the Wraithknight.

20 shots * .66666 * .33333 = 4.4 wounds delivered

Against a Wraithknight with the 5++ invuln, this is still 2.9 wounds, which is greater than the weighted average for Ritpides. The worst part is that the plasma gun is not a particularly good anti-Wraithknight weapon.

Look at Sternguard poison ammo:

20 shots *.666666* .833333 * .333333 = 3.7 wounds vs Wraithknight

20 shots *.6666 *. 83333 *.166666 *.66666 = 1.2 wounds vs Ritpide


So only if I'm foolish enough to fire S6 and below weapons at the Wraithknight does is suddenly become super durable. That's an easy fix: don't do that. I'm still searching for an effective anti-Riptide weapon. I can shoot the Riptide with poison, it doesn't care. High STR, it doesn't care. Medium STR lots of shots with AP 2 is better, but still is sadly lacking as my sternguard analysis showed.

SGTPozy wrote:
"I don't see how those two units and Taudar in general can survive their 7e codices without a nerf"

Well the Dreadknight got better in their 7th edition codex... But then again, they are IoM so they do have to be 'the best'.

You need to get the chip off your shoulder about IoM. It does NOT make for a good conversation when you are dismissing and diminishing the opposition in such a way.

The point is, if the Dreadknight is OP then the Riptide most certainly is and the idea is to bring all things into line with one another. If you think the Dreadknight is OP then support your position rather than trying to deflect criticism of the Riptide. I am no huge fan of the Dreadknight and I am sure you could make some good arguments as to why you think it is OP, but you haven't. Instead you keep on defending the Riptide with broad empty statements.

There was no intention of a real comparison in this topic anyway so I guess it really doesn't matter, this topic was made to instigate both sides into an argument.

You want my opinion? They are all to powerful if not over powered. Riptides can erase entire elite units in one shot every turn, they can quickly reduce the enemy army to ash BY THEM SELVES. If you are up against two of them then you might as well accept that you will have to squeeze a victory out through Maelstrom, if you are playing Maelstrom. This is of course only if you are playing a MEQ or TEQ based army, which just happen to be half of the armies in the game. I don't mind the Riptide AS much when I am playing my Tyranids, but sadly for me the rest of the Tau codex is pretty apt at killing my hordes or plasmaing my TMCs. No I don't spam Flyrants because I actually like to play a game, not just beat a puppy and even if I did that is not what is being talked about. Tau are probably one of the few if not only armies left in the game that can truely build a TAC list because their codex has a decent internal balance and play extremely well to the strengths of the current edition. Tau play in one phase in reality, the shooting phase, they can ignore movement, psychic, and assault phases. The Riptide doesn't have to subject itself to anything it doesn't want to, you can bubble wrap if to protect it from Deepstrike, you can blast anything on the table that could be a potential threat from almost anywhere on the board, you can move fast enough to flee from assault units for the most part, even if it only buys you ONE turn that is enough to do some serious damage. Riptides can be killed, I don't think anyone is arguing they are invincible, what is being said is that they can take to much damage, deal out to much damage, and can easily control the flow of battle from anywhere on the board WHILE being apart of an army that already dominates the most prominent phase of 7th edition. Riptides aren't so expensive that you are required to sacrifice a great deal in order to field them.

Dreadknights are an alpha striking beast that are going to kill almost anything you point them at, their major downside is that they have to put themselves into dangers way in order to do so. They are decent at shooting, decent survivability, and great melee potential. They can shunt to any location on the board and put down some punishing fire power on any enemy unit the choose, BUT they have to put themselves within 24" of the enemies line in order to do so which leaves them vulnerable to counter attacks. They are in an extremely elite army that struggles with hordes of enemy units and can be drowned out by weight of fire, Dreadknight included. They aren't an exceptionally fast army so I can more or less control the battle or at least force their hand in a couple of situations. They have to carefully plan out their movement phase to make sure that they don't get left chasing after fleeing enemies that they can't catch, they have to pick their shots because they have precious few even if they hit hard, they dominate any psychich phase they participate in and have access to the straight up broken invisibility. In assault they have army wide force, what on earth is going to stand up to that crap? Their major down side is being so elite and relatively slow that it is fairly easy as the enemy to avoid their deadlier units and piece out their army into manageable chunks.

I want to write a big ol' rant about the Wraithknight but you know what it doesn't get a great deal of hate? Because the WS is a MUCH more pressing issue than the possibility of the Wraithknight being a little to powerful.

"Riptides can be killed, I don't think anyone is arguing they are invincible, what is being said is that they can take to much damage, deal out to much damage, and can easily control the flow of battle from anywhere on the board WHILE being apart of an army that already dominates the most prominent phase of 7th edition"

That's exactly what I'm saying. My own math shows a point at which the Ritpide takes 5 wounds. It's just getting to that point in a game is kinda crazy. I have no problem with the Riptide being powerful, but it's just too much as it stands.

As a side note, why do we kerp conparing Riptides with FnP ti Wraithknights without Scattershields?

SGTPozy wrote:
"I don't see how those two units and Taudar in general can survive their 7e codices without a nerf"

Well the Dreadknight got better in their 7th edition codex... But then again, they are IoM so they do have to be 'the best'.

What does the Dreadknight do that's so unmanageable? It causes some shooting damage and then may or may not get to assault. Even if you don't quite kill it, you can choose which unit gets assaulted.

Martel732 wrote:"So, saying there are no good weapons against the riptide, but that there are good weapons against the wraithknight, is a strange thing to say. "

I can list several weapons that are good against the Wraithknight: Lascannon, krak missiles, anything poison, bright lances, dark lances. Can you list some that are actually GOOD against the riptide? Generating wounds means very little if it saving 89% or 78% of them.

Big Blind Bill wrote:

That's incredibly fast compared to a Riptide or Dreadknight.

You yourself stated "if you use the right weapons", the exact same thing can be said of any of the riptide.

Once ap2 weapons get involved, especially lower strength ones, the wraithknight becomes much tougher than the other 2 options.

Tau plasma for example. It would take 18 str 6 plasma hits to bring down a riptide using its 5+ invulnerable save. The wraith knight needs 54 of the same shots, even without a cover or invulnerable save.
It is not until str 9 ap 2 weapons that the wraithknight starts to take more wounds per shot than the riptide, but even then it still has 2 more wounds so the received comparative damage is overall fairly even.

Against non AP1-3 weapons, the riptide and the wraithknight perform equally well vs str 7, the riptide is better vs str 8+, and the wraith knight is better vs str 6 or less.
Again, the wraithknight has 2 more wounds to consider.

So, saying there are no good weapons against the riptide, but that there are good weapons against the wraithknight, is a strange thing to say.

They both have counters, but some of them are different.

He answers your question before you asked it. You're refusing to see it.

I would also mention that Riptides are torn apart in close combat esp. with a few powerfists. However, from the luck you claim to have, all of your Death Company jump troops get blasted from the table before the game even starts, so I don't know.

As for Riptides being 'too' powerful - I again point to the tournament scene of 2014, where Triptide Tau lists weren't rolling face as you seem to believe would happen.

LordBlades wrote:
As a side note, why do we kerp conparing Riptides with FnP ti Wraithknights without Scattershields?

Because I see very few Riptides w/o FNP and I see tons of Wraithknights without the scattershield. The gun downgrade forced with the scattershield makes it rare I think. The Eldar need more S6 shooting like a hole in the head.

"He answers your question before you asked it. You're refusing to see it. "

Those weapons are not what I'd consider "good".

What about a Dreadknight with a 4++ due to sanct

How does that compare with durability?

Martel732 wrote:
Those weapons are not what I'd consider "good".

Perhaps you should redefine your definition of 'good', as what's 'good' for you is clearly not working.

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
What about a Dreadknight with a 4++ due to sanct

How does that compare with durability?

Like crap, I bet.

So let's send in the token suicide STernguard plasma guys again.

20 shots * .66666 * .666666 *.5 = 4.4 wounds.

The 4++ is not standard on the Dreadknight, and I don't know if there is a way to guarantee it or not. AGainst the regular save:

20 shots *.6666. * .66666 * .666666 = 5.9 wounds.

Compared to our other two contenders, the Dreadknight is kind of a piece of junk in terms of durability against AP 2 weapons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

andbreak wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Those weapons are not what I'd consider "good".

Perhaps you should redefine your definition of 'good', as what's 'good' for you is clearly not working.

So what would you specifically recommend? I'll take that under advisement and run the numbers.

Martel732 wrote:

LordBlades wrote:
As a side note, why do we kerp conparing Riptides with FnP ti Wraithknights without Scattershields?

Because I see very few Riptides w/o FNP and I see tons of Wraithknights without the scattershield. The gun downgrade forced with the scattershield makes it rare I think.

"He answers your question before you asked it. You're refusing to see it. "

Those weapons are not what I'd consider "good".

Then how come I never see any Riptides with FnP,not on the table and certainly not in most recent top tier tournament lists?

What majes yourpersonal experience more valid than anyone else's?

Edit: The 3+ on Riptide isn't standard either, nor is there any way to guarantee it.

LordBlades wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

LordBlades wrote:
As a side note, why do we kerp conparing Riptides with FnP ti Wraithknights without Scattershields?

Because I see very few Riptides w/o FNP and I see tons of Wraithknights without the scattershield. The gun downgrade forced with the scattershield makes it rare I think.

"He answers your question before you asked it. You're refusing to see it. "

Those weapons are not what I'd consider "good".

Then how come I never see any Riptides with FnP,not on the table and certainly not in most recent top tier tournament lists?

What majes yourpersonal experience more valid than anyone else's?

Why would they leave off FNP? I guess maybe if they can squeeze in another whole Riptide by taking FNP off the others. Adding the scattershield does nothing in the poison ammo case anyway, which is my go-to weapon against Wraithknights. If Wraithknights had a 2+ save, this tactic would go right down the tubes.

"Edit: The 3+ on Riptide isn't standard either, nor is there any way to guarantee it."

I took that into account in my calculations. Go back and look.

Martel732 wrote:

LordBlades wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

LordBlades wrote:
As a side note, why do we kerp conparing Riptides with FnP ti Wraithknights without Scattershields?

Because I see very few Riptides w/o FNP and I see tons of Wraithknights without the scattershield. The gun downgrade forced with the scattershield makes it rare I think.

"He answers your question before you asked it. You're refusing to see it. "

Those weapons are not what I'd consider "good".

Then how come I never see any Riptides with FnP,not on the table and certainly not in most recent top tier tournament lists?

What majes yourpersonal experience more valid than anyone else's?

Why would they leave off FNP? I guess maybe if they can squeeze in another whole Riptide by taking FNP off the others.

Points are at a premium. 35 points is another Tetra or 3 Pathfinders. Also, most of the time people would go for the juicuer parts of the Tau army first.

FnP is worth it if:
- People are focusing your Riptide
- The game is still tight enough so those roughly 2 extra HP make a difference.

More markerlights are useful in every circumstance, every game.

SGTPozy wrote:
"I don't see how those two units and Taudar in general can survive their 7e codices without a nerf"

Well the Dreadknight got better in their 7th edition codex... But then again, they are IoM so they do have to be 'the best'.

Dreadknights are good -- great, even -- but they are not feared. I don't recall a Tau or Eldar player who quaked in fear of a bunch of Dreadknights. Whatever faction, if you see a few Dreadknights, you're unlikely to go, "Oh no, should I just pack up and go home". OTOH, you see a line of Riptides or Wave Serpents, and that's exactly what some players think.

That is also a reflection of the codex -- anyone who thinks 7e GK are overpowered is nuts

Without FNP, the Riptide gets somewhat more manageable, I'm sure. Without FNP, forcing nova charges becomes more viable, even you end up not shooting at them. That's something. It still feels like not enough, but it's something.

But there is still the overriding issue of the Wraithknight and Dreadknight running TOWARDS the enemy gunline and the Riptide staying far in the back. Plus I've shown how poorly the Dreadknight fares against standard Imperial plasma weapons.

Martel732 wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
What about a Dreadknight with a 4++ due to sanct

How does that compare with durability?

Like crap, I bet.

So let's send in the token suicide STernguard plasma guys again.

20 shots * .66666 * .666666 *.5 = 4.4 wounds.

The 4++ is not standard on the Dreadknight, and I don't know if there is a way to guarantee it or not. AGainst the regular save:

20 shots *.6666. * .66666 * .666666 = 5.9 wounds.

Compared to our other two contenders, the Dreadknight is kind of a piece of junk in terms of durability against AP 2 weapons.

[

its a Psyker power that comes stock on the DK, 1 warp charge cost, on pass increases invuln by 1. So its more reliable the more dice you throw at it, 1 dice its a 50/50

Talys wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
"I don't see how those two units and Taudar in general can survive their 7e codices without a nerf"

Well the Dreadknight got better in their 7th edition codex... But then again, they are IoM so they do have to be 'the best'.

Dreadknights are good -- great, even -- but they are not feared. I don't recall a Tau or Eldar player who quaked in fear of a bunch of Dreadknights. Whatever faction, if you see a few Dreadknights, you're unlikely to go, "Oh no, should I just pack up and go home". OTOH, you see a line of Riptides or Wave Serpents, and that's exactly what some players think.

That is also a reflection of the codex -- anyone who thinks 7e GK are overpowered is nuts

Having to get close automatically steps the GK down a power level, imo.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
What about a Dreadknight with a 4++ due to sanct

How does that compare with durability?

Like crap, I bet.

So let's send in the token suicide STernguard plasma guys again.

20 shots * .66666 * .666666 *.5 = 4.4 wounds.

The 4++ is not standard on the Dreadknight, and I don't know if there is a way to guarantee it or not. AGainst the regular save:

20 shots *.6666. * .66666 * .666666 = 5.9 wounds.

Compared to our other two contenders, the Dreadknight is kind of a piece of junk in terms of durability against AP 2 weapons.

[

its a Psyker power that comes stock on the DK, 1 warp charge cost, on pass increases invuln by 1. So its more reliable the more dice you throw at it, 1 dice its a 50/50

That's pretty solid, so they can easy throw two dice and get it 75% of the time. But plasma still does a number on the thing.

Martel732 wrote:
"So, saying there are no good weapons against the riptide, but that there are good weapons against the wraithknight, is a strange thing to say. "

I can list several weapons that are good against the Wraithknight: Lascannon, krak missiles, anything poison, bright lances, dark lances. Can you list some that are actually GOOD against the riptide? Generating wounds means very little if it saving 89% or 78% of them.

The numbers I stated included armour saves. From the weapons you listed, lascannons and eldar lances are just as effective against riptides as wraithknights

20 shots * .66666 * .33333 = 4.4 wounds delivered

Against a Wraithknight with the 5++ invuln, this is still 2.9 wounds, which is greater than the weighted average for Ritpides. The worst part is that the plasma gun is not a particularly good anti-Wraithknight weapon.

You need to check your maths I'm afraid. The riptide without FNP is taking 5.926 wounds from this. With FNP included the riptide is still taking 3.95 wounds, but has 1 wounds less. Therefore, plasma is still more effective against riptides than wraithknights.

EDIT: Just to make it really clear, it would take 18 plasma hits on a wraithknight with no save to take it out. It would take 15 hits against a riptide with FNP.

Against most shooting weapons they are of the same durability. Poison stuff is more dangerous to the wraithknight, but other stuff is more dangerous to the riptide.

In cc though it is a whole different story. Ever had powerfist equipped units in cc with a riptide? The riptide does't last long. Try the same thing with a wraithknight and you could be there all game. Same thing with meltabombs too.

You keep shrugging off T8 like it means nothing. The difference between T8 and T6 is pretty huge when it comes to wounding a target.

Another unmentioned factor: the wraithknight is fearless. Riptides I find are best to terrify or beat in cc and sweep. Easy and clean. Wraithknights are totally immune to this.

Martel732 wrote:


Having to get close automatically steps the GK down a power level, imo.

That's exactly it. If there were good long range options, then GK would be great. But there aren't, stepping the whole faction down a notch, and making DK a great unit for a faction that will have trouble getting it where it needs to be to fight.

Of course, we could all just play on 2' x 2' tables. See, I'm a problem solver

Talys wrote:


That is also a reflection of the codex -- anyone who thinks 7e GK are overpowered is nuts

Same goes for Tau. Since 7th edition nullified some of their more powerful tricks (buffmander on Riptides, Eldar psychic buffs) Tau has fallen quite a bit behind Eldar, Daemons and probably SM and Nids too (if Skyblight is as good on the table as it seems on paper).

LordBlades wrote:

Talys wrote:


That is also a reflection of the codex -- anyone who thinks 7e GK are overpowered is nuts

Same goes for Tau. Since 7th edition nullified some of their more powerful tricks (buffmander on Riptides, Eldar psychic buffs) Tau has fallen quite a bit behind Eldar, Daemons and probably SM and Nids too (if Skyblight is as good on the table as it seems on paper).

Skyblight is a thing of the past now multiple CADs have opened up the cheese that is penta-flyrant lists.

Going off recent tournament results SM and Eldar seem the most dominant, with IK allies all over the place. I'd rate primary daemons, nid and necrons above tau too, although tau allies for anti air is still a very popular choice.

"You need to get the chip off your shoulder about IoM. It does NOT make for a good conversation when you are dismissing and diminishing the opposition in such a way."

Is it okay for people to hate Tau though? Why is it so preposterous that I might hate the IoM's shenanigans?

I do not defend the Riptide; did you not read my suggested nerf? Clearly not. However, I do defend the unfair view that the Riptide is the most broken thing ever and that the Dreadknight sucks.

The Dreadknights is highly maneuvable, puts out a tonne of shots, is a psyker and is a close-combat beast!
What about the Riptide? Unpredictable maneuvability, great shooting, no psychic ability and is mediocre at best in close-combat.

Tau do not ignore phases just because they can play gunline. By the same logic I can say SM don't use any phase because in my experience they do not move, do not use psykers, do not shoot and do not assault (because they're too busy whining like little IoM pansies).

I do feel Martel is making some biased points in general.

I never run my riptide with FnP ever. 35 points isn't worth it.
I also don't nova too often because of the issues it can cause.

So can we just use the standard riptide for this suicide squad.

20 shots at 3+ hit is around 13-14 hits
13-14 hits at 3+ to wound is about 8-9 wounds
8-9 wounds on a 5++ is probably 5-6 unsaved wounds

Looks like a dead riptide to me, based on the base riptide stats.

The dread knight is the same.

Wraith night is
13-14 hits
5+ to wound is about 4 wounds with no saves

The wraith is still about, albeit massively injured.

Just pointing out this is how the riptide really is on base terms.
Still not denying both are hard to kill.

Yes the 3++ is a thing and yes it can cause up to 2 wounds to the riptide in a game.

The riptide is not as almight as has been made out all the way through this thread.

Yes if you buy the upgrades for a riptide it does gain some, but when isn't this true.

I apologize martel as I didn't know we only could consider things you liked. As well as I never knew you added fnp to the riptide which shouldn't count. If we do the other two stock should do Riptide stock. But I see you have a unfathomable love for the thing on borderline obsession. Please don't get made that I insult "your baby" but I seen yet again you said you can't ignore the tide? I remember telling you my drop pod army easily beat tau on multiple scenarios. It isn't that good if I can leave two alive and still win cause objectives and mission. I can't ignore the dreadknight or wraith if they come at me. I can the Riptide.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"So, saying there are no good weapons against the riptide, but that there are good weapons against the wraithknight, is a strange thing to say. "

I can list several weapons that are good against the Wraithknight: Lascannon, krak missiles, anything poison, bright lances, dark lances. Can you list some that are actually GOOD against the riptide? Generating wounds means very little if it saving 89% or 78% of them.

The numbers I stated included armour saves. From the weapons you listed, lascannons and eldar lances are just as effective against riptides as wraithknights

20 shots * .66666 * .33333 = 4.4 wounds delivered

Against a Wraithknight with the 5++ invuln, this is still 2.9 wounds, which is greater than the weighted average for Ritpides. The worst part is that the plasma gun is not a particularly good anti-Wraithknight weapon.

You need to check your maths I'm afraid. The riptide without FNP is taking 5.926 wounds from this. With FNP included the riptide is still taking 3.95 wounds, but has 1 wounds less. Therefore, plasma is still more effective against riptides than wraithknights.

EDIT: Just to make it really clear, it would take 18 plasma hits on a wraithknight with no save to take it out. It would take 15 hits against a riptide with FNP.

Against most shooting weapons they are of the same durability. Poison stuff is more dangerous to the wraithknight, but other stuff is more dangerous to the riptide.

In cc though it is a whole different story. Ever had powerfist equipped units in cc with a riptide? The riptide does't last long. Try the same thing with a wraithknight and you could be there all game. Same thing with meltabombs too.

You keep shrugging off T8 like it means nothing. The difference between T8 and T6 is pretty huge when it comes to wounding a target.

Another unmentioned factor: the wraithknight is fearless. Riptides I find are best to terrify or beat in cc and sweep. Easy and clean. Wraithknights are totally immune to this.

So we are going to drop this in and assume you get within 12". Because if you don't, you have no hope of killing the Riptide.

20 shots * .667 *. 667 = 8.9 wounds. That's a lot of AP 2 wounds, but this is the Riptide we are talking about here.

So, 66% of the time, the Riptide will have a 3++/FNP save. This brings cleared wounds down to 2.0 wounds.

The other 33% of the time, we have a 5++/FNP save. This clears 4.0 wounds.

Weighing these numbers, (.667*2.0)+(.333*4.0), we get 2.7 wounds averaged across many games.

That's how I computed it for the Riptide.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
I apologize martel as I didn't know we only could consider things you liked. As well as I never knew you added fnp to the riptide which shouldn't count. If we do the other two stock should do Riptide stock. But I see you have a unfathomable love for the thing on borderline obsession. Please don't get made that I insult "your baby" but I seen yet again you said you can't ignore the tide? I remember telling you my drop pod army easily beat tau on multiple scenarios. It isn't that good if I can leave two alive and still win cause objectives and mission. I can't ignore the dreadknight or wraith if they come at me. I can the Riptide.

I added 4++ to the Dreadknight and the scattershield for the Wraithknight. The FNP Riptide was still hands down the best.

Martel... You're still on your own.