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SGTPozy wrote:
Martel... You're still on your own.

No, no he isn't. Again, just because the Riptide defenders are being louder doesn't mean they are right. Look up at this thread, numerous people agree with what Martel is saying even if he comes off a little hostile against the Riptide.

Taking the tournament scene and using that as justification for what the Riptide can do is silly when you consider most people do not play such cut throat list with as much min/maxing as possible in order to win. In many situations there is no good answer to a Riptide. You can make anecdotal claims all day about how you never see a Riptide with FNP and how they aren't going to have the 3++ when you drop in your Sternguard but the fact of the matter is that FNP is on the table against Martel when he plays, when I play against the two Tau players our club has they both field FNP, many other people have that same experience. When I run my SM against Riptides my opponents are smart enough to realize that I have those Sternguard in a Drop Pod coming in so they go for the 3++ as often as they can, I can get lucky and have them fail that role but then, chances are, I only kill one of their two Riptides each. Killing a Riptide takes a HUGE investment in points for how expensive they really aren't. They take so much damage compared to how much they cost on top of being able to dish out a suitable amount of damage. They have the best of all worlds except assault, but even in assault they are a T6 5W MC with a 2+/5++/5+++, that does not crumble in assault like so many people claim unless they are against TH/SH terminators which happen to be a super easy target for Riptides.

Umm I didn't make those claims, you must have me mixed up with someone else.

SGTPozy wrote:
Don't worry, it doesn't bother me (I hope that I haven't bothered you) I was just discussing that yes, the Riptide is powerful, but the others are also powerful and they are even better than Riptides against non-marines.

Maybe. I expect the Dreadknight to be on the table for a much shorter time than a Riptide. Maybe that makes the difference. Maybe not.

I don't see why kill it when by leaving it alone and getting rid of its support (easy) it just doesn't perform.. it's so easy to beat them. Not kill them.. beat them

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
I don't see why kill it when by leaving it alone and getting rid of its support (easy) it just doesn't perform.. it's so easy to beat them. Not kill them.. beat them

Because my lists can't absorb 18 AP 2 pie plates over the course of the game. I'll nothing left to win with. Basically, your plan is for me to pray they miss. I guess that is a logical conclusion given how hard they are to kill. It's just very lame and disempowering to me.

Idk how you're opponents roll so well on the scatter die. But oh well again I guess you're honestly the worst 40k player. You put a threat in its face. Take objectives with the rest. Combat squad. Know what that means. That rams for each pod on an objective he has to remove THREE units. He is screwed.

Arbiter_Shade wrote:
Killing a Riptide takes a HUGE investment in points for how expensive they really aren't. They take so much damage compared to how much they cost on top of being able to dish out a suitable amount of damage.

Well, this is pretty much it. What's available on the Grey Knights codex that has at least even odds against a Riptide, for around 220 points? And yes, assume that both sides have reasonable supporting units.

OMG Wraithknight is sooooo fethin OP, S4 can't hurt it, it has 6 wounds and puts down 3 twin linked ap2 blasts every turn and moves 12"! It can even be your warlord! Its sooooooo stupid! its gotta be nurfed! lol

When this thread first started I was tempted to put a post about fishing for an argument or something but to my surprise the first page wasn't to hatey so I decided not to. Clearly I was mistaken after all.

Taffy17 wrote:
OMG Wraithknight is sooooo fethin OP, S4 can't hurt it, it has 6 wounds and puts down 3 twin linked ap2 blasts every turn and moves 12"! It can even be your warlord! Its sooooooo stupid! its gotta be nurfed! lol

When this thread first started I was tempted to put a post about fishing for an argument or something but to my surprise the first page wasn't to hatey so I decided not to. Clearly I was mistaken after all.

S4 also can't hurt AV 11. That's not a metric of power at all.

Martel732 wrote:

Taffy17 wrote:
OMG Wraithknight is sooooo fethin OP, S4 can't hurt it, it has 6 wounds and puts down 3 twin linked ap2 blasts every turn and moves 12"! It can even be your warlord! Its sooooooo stupid! its gotta be nurfed! lol

When this thread first started I was tempted to put a post about fishing for an argument or something but to my surprise the first page wasn't to hatey so I decided not to. Clearly I was mistaken after all.

S4 also can't hurt AV 11. That's not a metric of power at all.

ermmm... how can S4 hurt AV11?

edit: sorry, misread

Martel732 said S4 can't (cannot) hurt AV 11.

Talys wrote:
Martel732 said S4 can't (cannot) hurt AV 11.

Yeah, check my edit, my mistake

It also really hurts the sun cannon(?) that the Eldar already have S6 shooting coming out their ears.

Martel732 wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:

Boniface wrote:
Riptide kills all. Mwhahahah

No, I mean how easily the armies KILL them, not how easily they are killed by them.

E.g. Orks would kill the Riptide easiest since it lacks volume of shots (so worse than the Dreadknight) and will die in combat (whilst the Wraithknight will only be hurt by Nob's PKs).

You are assuming the Orks can ever catch it. I seriously doubt the Orks are the best list at killing Riptides.

Yeah SGTPozy , didn't you get the memo? Nothing can kill a riptide. Ever!

So tell me specifically what I should try, then.

Fast, hard hitting, and durable assault units make a riptides life very difficult.

For IoM a chapter master on a bike with a hammer comes to mind. The dreadknight is a good option too. The imperial knights are also great in this role.

For xenos there are things like seekers of slaanesh or flesh hounds, or ork warbike boss with powerklaw.

Psychic powers are good too, and telepathy is the best tree for the job. Psychic shriek and terrify can both work wonder vs a riptide. If you take the markerlights out first then the shrouded really reduces the incoming damage, and we all know how good invisibility is.

@SGTPozy: I'm sorry please forgive me!

Riptide looks the most badass, but 1v1, it requires much more support then the other two (Markerlights etc) and is basically a big punching bag in melee (A tough one granted).

Dreadknight is also pretty badass looking, can be fitted with the Greatsword, Teleporter and both Heavy Incin and Heavy Psycannon, so it can really deal out the dakka and mulch stuff in CQC (bloody expensive though)

I'm not a fan of the Eldar Aesthetic, but the Wraithknight is pretty cool. Never played one, or faced one, but generally speaking it seems alot of people fear it more then a Dreadknight, but fear Riptides more.

I think all 3 are equally awesome, and each one supports a different playstyle imo. I play a fast-attack happy, quick striking force, and the Dreadknight with its shunt would be invaluable to me, really putting the killing blow on a flank. The Riptide and Knight don't give me that type of playstyle.

SGTPozy wrote:

Backfire wrote:

Minimum change to Riptide would be T7 3+ W4. Better change would be making it to AV13 walker with 4 HP.

Or the most suitable nerf which would be to prevent it from buying a FNP save and change the 3++ to a 4++. That would make it more like the (apparently) balanced Dreadknight.

I think the biggest problem is Sv2+. This makes it invulnerable to far too many commons weapons - Krak Missile and Autocannon equivalents, small arms etc.

Monstrous Creatures should not have 2+ armour save. Ever, period. It creates too large differential compared to vehicles, which are easily destroyed by Ap3/4 weapons. It does not make sense that Hammerhead can be easily destroyed by Krak Missiles, but Riptide is nearly invulnerable against them.

Backfire wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:

Backfire wrote:

Minimum change to Riptide would be T7 3+ W4. Better change would be making it to AV13 walker with 4 HP.

Or the most suitable nerf which would be to prevent it from buying a FNP save and change the 3++ to a 4++. That would make it more like the (apparently) balanced Dreadknight.

I think the biggest problem is Sv2+. This makes it invulnerable to far too many commons weapons - Krak Missile and Autocannon equivalents, small arms etc.

Monstrous Creatures should not have 2+ armour save. Ever, period. It creates too large differential compared to vehicles, which are easily destroyed by Ap3/4 weapons. It does not make sense that Hammerhead can be easily destroyed by Krak Missiles, but Riptide is nearly invulnerable against them.

I do partially agree about the 2+ save but GW sees the Dreadkbight's 2+ save as okay so I will be really annoyed if the Riptide goes down to a 3+ save.

Can't CSM get a 2+ T6 burgle biker lord using the Crimson Slaughter? '

If you asking who is going to win in a fight between the 3 I would say the Dreadknight. Force give it a pretty huge advantage. You basicly have to kill it before it gets into melee and that can be.... difficult.

Now which has the most use in an army. I would say the rip-tide. It has the most versatility and survival-ability.

However I think pretty much all of them lose to the new wraiths formation from the Necron codex.

Any of these vs an equal number points wise of wraiths is a losing scenario.

Also I'm curious what everyone will say when tau's OTHER 2 riptide variants finally get the seal of approval.

Riptide > dreadknight > wraithknight >(wraithlord)

T8 does protect against small arms fire but no FNP, or invulnerable without massive overpriced points option, and a 3+ save kill the wraith for me.\

Dreadknight can pown anything in cc, a big shunt and just as fast as the wraithknight.
It is really deadly but doesn't have as much utility as the next option.

Riptide, murders things from long range, can be equiped to deal with anything and is also half decent in cc. Can get a 3++ if needed. Offers anti air which most codex are lacking and is included in almost every tau list i have ever seen.

(of course wraithlords another mc not mentioned in the eldar codex is so bad it isn't even worth considering)

Also another form did the math a while ago and the wraithlord is worst than a landraider minus being able to assault.

 Silverthorne wrote:
Riptide is the most bent, if you are considering an Ion Accelerator. If not then it's a tossup between the knights.

Well that and give it Interceptor. Seriously, that upgrade is way too cheap. Yeah, it loses some shooting for it, but I have rarely seen one without some kind of extra weapon that, along with the Shielded Missile Drones, can still shoot the next turn.