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Ah slayer darts.

"So they're unbreakable?" -- yup
"So each one is a "character" --yup
"So I can only ever allocate attacks to one of them" --yup
"So at minimum it will take me as many round of combat as there are models in the unit" --yup
"So my 1k point deathstar is being held up for 5 combats by literally 5 dwarfs?" --yup
"I hate slayer darts" --yup

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 Haight wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 streamdragon wrote:

 Haight wrote:
Thanquol was not kind to the dwarfs.

Current prevailing opinion is that they're going to get rolled into the human armies somehow. This is largely conjecture and wishful thinking (including mine!) because there's no proof of it at all.

The only thing remotely approaching proof would be the picture of a skaven army ready to battle a combined Empire, Ogres and Dwarves force. Of course, that could just be an allied armies force or something.

Well, Grimgor's Locus buffs Ogre units in the same army.

Last i checked, Grimgor's an orc, right ? Unless the old world has the racial equivalent of gender reassignment. All kidding aside, given what i was responding to in my quote, i don't get the context of your statement given what you quoted of mine.

Grimgor's incarnate buff points to OnG and Ogres being rolled up.

.... i know. ... nevermind. We're saying the same thing but not understanding how the other is saying it i think. Ogres are almost assuredly going to O&G, unless they do some weird ass hybrid of Ogres can go with O&G or Empire, or some kind of unbound thing (of which there is currently zero evidence).

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Good point actually, haven't thought about this yet...by Dwarf logic, all of them would suddenly be Slayers...

...does someone else remember the hilarious Slayer Konga Lines?

Do you remember the absolute joy of the storm of chaos slayer army?

d3 S4 wounds per rank with a 36''?48''? range? Hahaha. And those goddamn Doomboxes. I mean, come on.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Good point actually, haven't thought about this yet...by Dwarf logic, all of them would suddenly be Slayers...

...does someone else remember the hilarious Slayer Konga Lines?

Do you remember the absolute joy of the storm of chaos slayer army?

d3 S4 wounds per rank with a 36''?48''? range? Hahaha. And those goddamn Doomboxes. I mean, come on.

Even back then, dwarfs allowed all the fun. And by that, I mean none of the fun.

Aye. Dwarfs have always been the most terribly balanced army in the game. If an army has an insane winrate just by litereally stuffing as many war machines as they can in the corner of the board, up to a point where it's banned to do at tournaments, then you have to question yourself as a rules author. The introduction of the rune amboss made it even worse...more static shooting, awesome.

don't forget move and fire handguns

 Formosa wrote:
don't forget move and fire handguns

If a dwarf player is moving, he's a bad dwarf player.

Moving dwarfs? Haven't seen that in a while. Can they actually move?

 Formosa wrote:
don't forget move and fire handguns

Dwarfs have legs

Lies. Their buttocks connect directly to their ankles.

Dwarves will all be killed off and removed from the game. Give up now and sell all your dwarf stuff.

Until this stuff is actually confirmed, stop spouting it off as fact.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Until this stuff is actually confirmed, stop spouting it off as fact.

That's true. Everyone knows that all Dorfs will actually become a real army!

According to BOLS they are rolled into empire along with ogres and brets.

So what if BoLS says it.

The simple fact is that as of right now, we have NO concrete evidence that such is being done "post-End Times" and completely removing Dwarfs as a faction.

So please, stop discussing this stuff as if it is fact, and acting as though it is a hundred percent done.

 Kanluwen wrote:
So what if BoLS says it.

The simple fact is that as of right now, we have NO concrete evidence that such is being done "post-End Times" and completely removing Dwarfs as a faction.

So please, stop discussing this stuff as if it is fact, and acting as though it is a hundred percent done.

I just said they said it. And so what? It's more than nothing. BOLS has been right about the majority of end times releases. Sure some has been wrong but the jist has been correct.

I'm not saying it is fact, but it is something to think on.

Assuming dwarfs die out is the rest of warhammer thinking wishfully.

This and Goblins finally getting their own army book.

Dwarfs are as iconic to fantasy as elves and orcs IMO...to remove dwarfs entirely would be foolhardy.
Here's my theory of the new lineup

Order
1. Humanity (Empire/Bretonnia)
2. Seelie 'Light' Elves (High/Wood elves)
3. Dwarfs
4. Lizardmen
5. Nekeharan Undead (TK)


Destruction
1. Chaos (Beasts/Mortals/Daemons)
2. Unseelie 'Dark' Elves (Dark/Wood elves)
3. Orcs and Goblins (and maybe Ogres)
4. Skaven
5. Nagashi Undead (VC)

Further cut down list would look like this

Order
1. Humanity (Empire/Brets)
2. Elves (combined)
3. Dwarfs
4. Lizardmen

Destruction
1. Undead (VC/TK)
2. Chaos (Beasts/Mortals/Daemons)
3. Orcs and Goblins (and Ogres?)
4. Skaven


If there were 6 armies total, leaving us with three good and three evil armies, then I would guess...

Order
1. Humanity (Empire/Brets)
2. Elves
3. Dwarfs

Destruction
1. Undead (VC/TK)
2. Chaos (and Skaven? they might fit under 'beasts' of chaos)
3. Orcs n Goblins (and Ogres?)


Each army is a counter point to the other in respect of playstyle, lore and 'look and feel'. There is a common theme of post-apocalyptic chaos

I think due to the recent lore changes, the elven society will split again, those seeking to foster alliances to survive in the post-End Times world, and those who will take by force to survive. Both elven societies will devolve to more semi-nomadic, reclusive societies akin to wood elves, and will absorb wood elven elements into their respective cultures. Nature can both nurture and cull, so reflecting this in life and death, light and shadow, good and evil fits.

End times for humanity will have broken the existing political institutions - a common religious and civic culture will emerge, and I would guess that bretonnian lords and imperial counts will form some grand union of humanity to lead the remnants to a new combined human realm under KFA/Sigmar and the Lady of the Lake.

The lore has been fairly savage to the existing dwarven society, and some fear they will be wiped out completely. I guess they wanted to radically change their culture and society to move them away from defensive, static lore (and thus playstyle) to a more nomadic, perhaps steampunkesque direction. I hope to see faster dwarves (perhaps not cav), with golems, airships, runes and berserkers. Whilst I don't think they will remove dwarven ranged elements entirely, they may be 'wiping the slate clean' to redesign the dwarf playstyle away from castling.
After all, dwarfs should be running *towards* a melee eagerly, brandishing weapons and swearing profusely, not standing there shooting then begrudgingly drawing weapons (it just doesn't seem in line with the dwarven spirit of things). Folding them into the empire doesn't seem right - unless they are relegated to war machine crew status only as 'specialist' units.

Undead reunification has been covered off fairly well by ET - there is room for rebellion against Nagash. I'm unsure if that room will allow a feasible excuse for two undead armies of the same faction to fight, or for a second fully fledged army to exist. Seems like a fitting place to trim back the armies and reunite them as one undead faction...although they could really get the TK 'rebel' element going as a force of order, that is to say, they wish a return to the status quo, not the overturning of existing world order. GW may take the route of combining TK army into one and offering opposing TK/VC special characters as a means to fluff out your list as a rebel or loyalist.

Orcs and Goblins are such a staple of fantasy, that the fantasy setting without them would seem incomplete. Their chaotic rabble fits the raging barbarian hordes niche so well, and their comical and yet so deadly serious threat is a perfect. Ogres might be rolled into them. Yes I know ogres have a past history of mercenary duties to the Empire...but that was when the empire was stable, whole and wealthy enough to bribe them to fight others. in the post end-times world, the Empire is shattered...so I would suspect Ogres will become far more predatory and opportunistic as their insatiable curse of hunger takes hold. Orcs like to fight, goblins like to steal, Ogres love to eat - a perfect synergy and would give OnG an alternative to trolls for MI units. I can see this working quite naturally.

That just leaves us with Chaos and Skaven.
As per a reunified undead, I can see Chaos being a natural fit for reunification, allowing options for beasts/mortals and daemons to fight in the same army. Perhaps offering a choice of each for infantry, chaff, MI, cav and monsters would be a good way to let people field either a mix or a mono army, and would give Chaos a chance for more varied tactics. Chaos is another solid staple of WH, and won't disappear.

Skaven...depending on how desperate GW is to trim armies, it *could* be argued for them to join Chaos. They are, after all, a Chaos influenced and inspired society, and could fit in amongst the 'beasts' element of chaos. However...I feel Skaven has evolved down a different route to Chaos, to the point of exerting independence from and opposition to Chaos itself. Yes, Chaos may have 'birthed' the Skaven and they have a close affinity to Nurgle especially (why not Tzneetch too, given the Conspiracy of Silence?), but I cannot forsee the Skaven desiring to be pulled back into the ranks of the daemons. Rather, they are an offshoot of them, and would fight against attempts by Chaos to subvert them. Why...I could even imagine Skaven warlocks attempting to enslave daemons to 'feed' off their fel energies!


Well, there you have it. My fairly rough analysis of where I think WHFB is going. I don't know what to make of the rumours regarding a supposedly 'holy army' that has been circulating around - humans from Cathay or Ind? Only time will tell. I've been waiting a long time to rejoin WHFB, and if 9th goes off well enough, this may be the edition that I make the jump back in.

Gee, its as if they don't realize their in-house magazine is named White Dwarf.

Do we even know what happened to Malakai Makaisson (the crazy Slayer engineer)?

Man really hate where the End Tines is going..Uhhhh

Was super excited when it first started now

It will all turn out that WHFB is actually set at the very end of the age of strife and the end times are the reunification of terra. Karl Franz is actually the Emperor of Mankind.

I heard GW just could not come up with a design that they feel provided them with a strong IP, so the skaven eat them I mean kill them.

No playable dwarfs in 9th initially but they are mentioned in the human fluff as providing smiths and rune support so they may be hope if GW come up with a design they like.

 welshhoppo wrote:
It will all turn out that WHFB is actually set at the very end of the age of strife and the end times are the reunification of terra. Karl Franz is actually the Emperor of Mankind.

*cough* https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B-Y6JivIEAA1RLX.jpg:large *cough*

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
don't forget move and fire handguns

If a dwarf player is moving, he's a bad dwarf player.

Wrong. Although this was a few editions ago, I was one of the more succesful Dwarf players then, and I played aggressively.
TBH, 8th edition's completely busted ultimate spells magic is the only reason I know of why that stopped being a viable dwarf tactic.

Although I do agree with the Dwarfs having received the short end of the stick as far as rules writing is concerned since basically forever. As an army, they only have 2 of the unit types in the book, as well as being slow and having no offensive magic phase, with their defensive phase being toned down quite a bit over the years as well.

Bran Dawri wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
don't forget move and fire handguns

If a dwarf player is moving, he's a bad dwarf player.

Wrong. Although this was a few editions ago, I was one of the more succesful Dwarf players then, and I played aggressively.
TBH, 8th edition's completely busted ultimate spells magic is the only reason I know of why that stopped being a viable dwarf tactic.

Although I do agree with the Dwarfs having received the short end of the stick as far as rules writing is concerned since basically forever. As an army, they only have 2 of the unit types in the book, as well as being slow and having no offensive magic phase, with their defensive phase being toned down quite a bit over the years as well.

The balancing of the dwarfs goes as follows:

Movement based lists depend on 6 set pieces which are easily neutralisable.

Combat based lists depend on 6 set pieces which are easily neutralisable.

Gunline based lists work with anything in the books.

The If a dwarf combat list, by some miracle, gets the combats it wants, then it may be able to win, because WS5 with no rerolls is still dicey(Just ask any warriors player), but unless you've been blessed with making a tonne of parries, dwarfs lose most combats.


So, as a recap, dwarf lists are largely shooting based as it's the way that they win.

Mmmm, that's what people said in 6th edition as well, and yet I made it work.

But I agree that Dwarfs are a very poorly designed army. I love their background, their supposed style and their stubborn, unyielding nature, but I keep running up against how uniform the army list is.
But the army literally only has warmachines and infantry. Some of the infantry also shoots.
There is no magic, no cavalry, no chariots, no monsters, monstrous infantry or cavalry, even though there is plenty of room to add all of the above (except maybe magic and cavalry) in the background while keeping them infantry-based.

Personally I think the problem is that everyone else has had a good rummage in the lucky dip of magic, cavalry, chariots, monsters, monstrous infantry, etc. Dwarfs come the closest to that thing that GW gamers usually rave about: army character. Just a pity it does them little good in a game where all others have to get all the same toys.

Bran Dawri wrote:
Mmmm, that's what people said in 6th edition as well, and yet I made it work.

But I agree that Dwarfs are a very poorly designed army. I love their background, their supposed style and their stubborn, unyielding nature, but I keep running up against how uniform the army list is.
But the army literally only has warmachines and infantry. Some of the infantry also shoots.
There is no magic, no cavalry, no chariots, no monsters, monstrous infantry or cavalry, even though there is plenty of room to add all of the above (except maybe magic and cavalry) in the background while keeping them infantry-based.

It can work, but it's inferior to every other combat army under the sun.

Dwarf movement is so lackluster, it's practically not worth doing, and moving makes your army much more vulnerable. Hence, a dwarf player that moves is doing it wrong.