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Hey everyone,

I recently read a game report which used Bolt Action figures and since then i have been eager to get my hands on them. I bought the Bolt Action D-Day Firefight for 55 euros (including shipping) and the vallejo Waffen SS color set for 20 euros. Really look forward to painting the german models. Not sure how to approach the US miniatures, but i rather not have to spend any more money on paints.

If i enjoy the models and see if i can get a game going what should i consider grabbing next?
2x 500pts armies? or for each force a platoon squad and 1or2 special units (mg, mortar, transport, sniper..)

 hjfkuiper wrote:
Hey everyone,

I recently read a game report which used Bolt Action figures and since then i have been eager to get my hands on them. I bought the Bolt Action D-Day Firefight for 55 euros (including shipping) and the vallejo Waffen SS color set for 20 euros. Really look forward to painting the german models. Not sure how to approach the US miniatures, but i rather not have to spend any more money on paints.

If i enjoy the models and see if i can get a game going what should i consider grabbing next?
2x 500pts armies? or for each force a platoon squad and 1or2 special units (mg, mortar, transport, sniper..)

Nice price on the starter set!

Well you've got a good base of US Infantry, from which you can easily make an LT + aide, a Sniper team, and a Bazooka Team, and maybe an Air Force observer + aide... leaving you about 12 models to make two small squads... from there I'd try to get another squad as I've found I always need at least three infantry squads in my platoons (maybe order one or two sprues from Warlord direct, or a box of US Infantry if you want to add more infantry, or a box of US Rangers which are the plastics with some metal bits). I love mortars, too, so a blister pack of a medium mortar, and maybe an anti-tank gun team. And the ubiquitous Sherman tank, which Warlord has in plastic, and if you're feeling saucy, the plastic Halftrack. You'd be close to 1000 points right there!

For the Germans, if you'd like to expand into Waffen-SS, the Waffen-SS boxed set is a great deal (http://store.warlordgames.com/products/waffen-ss-boxed-set/) - comes with SS command, a radio team for Artillery observer, a medic, a medium mortar team, and a whole mess of SS infantry (including some with assault rifles), enough to do two five or six-man Veteran squads. If you aim to do that, I'd assemble the plastic Germans you already have as a panzergrenadier squad of eight men with a couple assault rifles and panzerfausts, and make the remaining two a Sniper team. Add a plastic Panzer IV (ausf H with schurzen for that late war effect) or plastic Puma 234/2 and that'd be close to 1000 as well!

Thanks Judgedoug! Happy to hear i got a good deal. I really like the suggestions you put forward. Do the sprues contain enough bits to turn models in LTs, Medic, and a sniper or will i need to get some green stuff? I will know once i get the box, but quite excited so please share!

I like to keep my miniature force infantry based, so for the germans a puma would be cool. Also the SS box looks like a great deal! I would still like a MG42 though. For the US rangers would be cool, but i don't like allied tanks too much. Will see what is available. Before i expand i first want to get everything painted. I will keep checks on my countries version of ebay to snipe deals. Not sure if ebay works for me, but i will have a look.
Edit: for the US i would go for a steward or halftrack (m3A1 or M16)

Alternatively, do you think anyone is interested in trading these US forces for Brits?

 hjfkuiper wrote:
Thanks Judgedoug! Happy to hear i got a good deal. I really like the suggestions you put forward. Do the sprues contain enough bits to turn models in LTs, Medic, and a sniper or will i need to get some green stuff? I will know once i get the box, but quite excited so please share!

I like to keep my miniature force infantry based, so for the germans a puma would be cool. Also the SS box looks like a great deal! I would still like a MG42 though. For the US rangers would be cool, but i don't like allied tanks too much. Will see what is available. Before i expand i first want to get everything painted. I will keep checks on my countries version of ebay to snipe deals. Not sure if ebay works for me, but i will have a look.
Edit: for the US i would go for a steward or halftrack (m3A1 or M16)

Alternatively, do you think anyone is interested in trading these US forces for Brits?

Yes, both the US and Late War German sprues each contain five bodies, arms, and a bunch of heads, the German sprue has officer heads w/ officer caps, and the US infantry sprue even has a Hollywood American NCO chomping on a cigar! The weapon sprues are separate. The US weapons sprue contains Garand and Springfield rifles, scoped sniper rifle, Thompson and Grease Gun SMGs, pistols, Bazookas, carbines, grenades, binoculars, knife, BAR and shotgun. The German weapons sprue contains rifles, MG34, MG42, stg44, panzerfaust, potato mashers, scoped rifle, SMGs, binoculars, etc. So you really do get a lot of variety in bits to make whatever you'd like. Since Germans can have MG's in squads you can equip the plastic German squad with an MG42.

that Waffen-SS set is all metal though, FYI. Though it does come with the classic SS soldier bracing MG42 on his buddy's shoulder and firing while standing.

If you want to tone down, with no tanks, then a Puma for the Germans is a great idea. For the US, how about an M8 Greyhound armored car? Got a 37mm gun and .30 LMG and an optional .50 cal HMG! That way you have a recon armored car for each side but they both pack a little punch.

The US Rangers set is definitely a good investment, you get 25 more plastic infantry plus a bunch of metal bits including a flamethrower!

Yeah, depends on how big you want to go. If you just want a small demo force to get other people to play your Germans, I found 750 to be a pretty good go to point. The demo list is the D-Day Americans, an M8 Greyhound, a medium mortar, a heavy machine gun, a sniper and bazooka team(both from the D-Day set) and the HQ blister. It gives the US a good mix of all the various weapons types, and under a hundred bucks to build.

Start small and see if you like the game first...


Though the beauty of historicals is taht even if you dont, your figures will work perfectly well for many other systems.

Very true Big P -- with historicals, you never really waste your money on miniatures (except from a wifely point of view maybe).

 Manchu wrote:
Very true Big P -- with historicals, you never really waste your money on miniatures (except from a wifely point of view maybe).

And possibly that unpainted lead mountain hidden in the basement.
Unless you hop between scales a lot, your Bolt Action figures could be used for Disposable Heroes, Arc of Fire, Battleground WWII, or others.

Finally i will be able to pickup my box at the post office. Customer stores should start opening at 11.00 and remain open until 20.00 so people with work can actually stop by. I am still not sure how i want to expand the lists. Perhaps i can find someone locally who wants to split another starter box letting me keep the germans. Nothings says blitzkrieg like mechanized units! Anyone have tips on which box sets are value for money and best places to order (to The Netherlands)?

Anyway, as snurl mentioned, i dont want any unpainted/unopened boxes so first need to finish what i have, which also includes a bunch of old SM models i have been painting (http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/625358.page#7397050)

 hjfkuiper wrote:
Finally i will be able to pickup my box at the post office. Customer stores should start opening at 11.00 and remain open until 20.00 so people with work can actually stop by. I am still not sure how i want to expand the lists. Perhaps i can find someone locally who wants to split another starter box letting me keep the germans. Nothings says blitzkrieg like mechanized units! Anyone have tips on which box sets are value for money and best places to order (to The Netherlands)?

Anyway, as snurl mentioned, i dont want any unpainted/unopened boxes so first need to finish what i have, which also includes a bunch of old SM models i have been painting (http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/625358.page#7397050)

Direct from Warlord does free shipping at a certain threshold. They are also running the Buy A D-Day Firefight and Get A Free Sherman or Panzer IV deal. Additionally they have "buy three of any vehicle and get 10% off", and a few other deals (Box of Pioniers, Pionier Half Track, and get free Kradschutzen)
Wayland Games also does about 10% off and free shipping over £40 - http://www.waylandgames.co.uk/warlord-games/bolt-action/cat_391.html

Except that with Wayland you wont even know if its in stock and even if it says it is, it probably isnt.

If you want to do W-SS you can use the regular German plastics just fine. If you want the smexy Camo you can convert the models to 44dot by cutting off the shoulder boards.

Yeah. Don't buy from Wayland. Use Firestorm or Troll Trader for the same 10% and free post, except they have actual trustworthy stock levels and will ship anything in stock on the same day.

Arcane has free shipping with a lower threshold than Warlord direct, though no 10% off.

Hah, I just noticed bolt action put out some pill style bases for those prone guys they always put on sprues.

A friend and I have just started playing Chain of Command while I'm waiting for Bolt Action 2nd edition. It's a drastically different game, but actually fun to play something less rigid and less based on old 40k rules.

So yeah, a historical army is really a long term investment in wargaming, WWII especially. You have a combination of both stability, but also endless variety since there's always new ways to play coming out.

 Vertrucio wrote:
but actually fun to play something less rigid and less based on old 40k rules

So you are unfamiliar with both 40k and Bolt Action, unless you have some convoluted explanation for your thinly veiled attack?

It's okay, Doug. Just accept that all the fun that you've had with older editions of 40k and BA itself wasn't real fun because you were Doing It Wrong.

Have you noticed that when you play a new game designed by Jake Thornton, or Alessio Calvatore, or Neil Fawcett, that a lot of the design elements and rule mechanics ideas are similar? A lot of designers have particular ideas about a mechanic should function and carry this through multiple systems, as a way of achieving the same thing, and it becomes a signature for that designer.

I think it's as simple as that - Rick Priestly was a big part of designing 40k, now he has been involved with designing Bolt Action, and so it stands to reason you are going to have some similarities. Although, I would say the experience of playing BA is certainly different to 40k, with the random activation (and smaller miniature count than later editions of 40k) it is far faster and more flowing.

 Pacific wrote:


I think it's as simple as that - Rick Priestly was a big part of designing 40k, now he has been involved with designing Bolt Action,

Less involvement than you would imagine, according to Rick anyway.

Source? He and Alessio are the ones credited on the book.

The source is me talking to him when I played him at BA at one of our tournaments*
He said that Alessio did most of the heavy lifting (though if I recall he said he came up with the order dice thing) and they basically just plonked his name on there for increased credability/potential to increase sales.

*I know thats a case of "you'll just have to take my word for it." I don't expect anyone to do so. Its just a thing that happened.

Edited for terrible spelling

 Pete Melvin wrote:
The source is me talking to him when I played him at BA at one of our tournaments*
He said that Alessio did most of the heavy lifting (though if I recall he said he came up with the order dice thing) and they basically just plonked his name on there for increased credability/potential to increase sales.

*I know thats a case of "you'll just have to take my word for it." I don't expect anyone to do so. Its just a thing that happened.

Edited for terrible spelling

Yup, pretty much what I heard from those involved...

Vertrucio wrote:A friend and I have just started playing Chain of Command while I'm waiting for Bolt Action 2nd edition. It's a drastically different game, but actually fun to play something less rigid and less based on old 40k rules.

They definitely give different gaming experiences. As well, 40k's core rules are based on common miniature gaming conventions from the 60s and 70s. "Roll dice for each figure, figure how many hit, figure how bad the hits were, check to see if something got in the way" is standard fare for lots of early miniature wargames. Why did WFB and 40k keep those conventions? Because they work. Bolt Action is probably better described as "how old 40k should have been" as it adds interactive turns, a morale element and is generally awesome.

I play BA and Chain of Command pretty much equally. For the average person starting out (see the thread title), I'd recommend BA as the Chain of Command system of building armies really only shines once you have a larger collection and can make meaningful choices right before the battle. A "rigid" game like BA is definitely better for someone just getting started as they can build their army and that's that. It's entirely possible in Chain of Command that you paint up a new unit or tank and then the dice for reinforcement don't go your way and you don't get to put your newly painted figures on the table as part of your army. I think two games went by after I painted my KV-1 before it was included in my forces on the table top in the third. Chain of Command really starts to shine after you have a solid half or more of your possible available options. When I host a Chain of Command game, I pull out almost twice the number of miniatures and vehicles than for Bolt Action so everyone can make meaningful choices about what is reinforcing their platoon.

So yeah, a historical army is really a long term investment in wargaming, WWII especially. You have a combination of both stability, but also endless variety since there's always new ways to play coming out.

Definitely.

Azazelx wrote:Yeah. Don't buy from Wayland. Use Firestorm or Troll Trader for the same 10% and free post, except they have actual trustworthy stock levels and will ship anything in stock on the same day.

Arcane [Scenery] has free shipping with a lower threshold than Warlord direct, though no 10% off.

This. I use Arcane Scenery regularly because they're good for smaller orders and those get through Canadian Customs better, but if I'm making anything like a larger order, Troll Trader is probably my favorite. Arcane Scenery also has a different subset of products as they are more a historical model shop than a wargaming store.

Alessio Cavatore is pretty much the rules man behind Bolt Action, which is why he continually updates it and talks to the community and tournament organizers and has groups playtest potential errata. Rick Priestley was involved in heavy playtesting and refinement.

If game designers continually made games based on the same concepts, then wouldn't Bolt Action play like Lord of the Rings Strategy Battle Game or Mordheim?

So, again, I dispute entirely this weird assertion that Bolt Action is somehow based on 40k - usually made by people unfamiliar with either system and specifically to denigrate Bolt Action somehow. Nearly every aspect about the two systems is entirely different, with perhaps the shared experience of using models and rolling dice and measuring ranges.

I suspect JD, its partly due to the use of army books, points and a tournament suitable mechanic.

I supposse it could be seen as similar to 40k, but then so could many other games, where do you draw the line? Its a difficult to make a direct comparison between 40k and BA as so much is different once past the basic similarities I mentioned above.

They dont seem similar to me unless its the use of 'codex' army books etc. And I say that as someone who doesnt use the game as its not really to my taste.

One thing I have noticed though, and you kinda touch on it JD, is both the negative attitude to BA and the often aggresive defence of the same by players. It kinda reminds me of 40k in that way!

Though I aint seen it on this forum, I have seen some very aggresive BA players who resort to rather unpleasent personal attacks on those passing comment on the game. I hope its not an undercurrent that will grow as it really did put me off trying any further with the system. I also would be worried that it will do more harm to the system than grow its popularity. I also dont understand the directed negativity towards BA, generally from people who seem to have no intention of ever trying the system. Perhaps that negativity has fostered the aggresive attitude in some? I dunno.

Just dont get it... Why not let people play what they like and leave it at that. Its only toy soldiers...

Big P wrote:
One thing I have noticed though, and you kinda touch on it JD, is both the negative attitude to BA and the often aggresive defence of the same by players. It kinda reminds me of 40k in that way!

Maybe it's because Bolt Action's designers were at GW? A lot of people on the internet really are that childish.

Big P - good call on the army books - but the recent scenario books have been pretty system-agnostic. My buddy (who loves Battlegroup) has been poring over Battleground Europe and Ostfront and devising Battlegroup scenarios based on them. I do like the Army Book aspect, though, as it's very apparent that a lot of gamers buy Bolt Action within little knowledge of specifics of WW2 and then read their army book with background of real battles and events and all of a sudden are verrry interested in the history. (It's happened to me, too, I've become a lot more interested in WW2 gaming specifically from reading more historical sources from playing Bolt Action over the past year or so)

In regards to attacking people, interestingly, the comment in my sig by the author of Chain of Command was directed at me after I said that I like Bolt Action not because it's the best, but because I can find players and be able to get in games versus waiting to play once every six months at musty old conventions with old grognards that take five hours to play a small skirmish
I thought it was a good contrast of professionalism with the Alessio quote about me versus TooFatLardies' quote about me

Tailgunner, perhaps, but ol' Battlegroup's Warwick Kinrade also basically worked for GW...

The underlying attitude has always seemed to me that "popularity=bad" in the historical gaming community.

Well anyways we are way off topic from the OP!!

The hostility toward BA is a great example of elitism in historicals, which is why I stayed away from historicals for so long. IME, folks who play sci fi and fantasy games don't put on airs like the historicals crowd. Maybe it is harder to take onself so seriously pushing around toy goblins instead of toy Nazis.

judgedoug wrote:So, again, I dispute entirely this weird assertion that Bolt Action is somehow based on 40k - usually made by people unfamiliar with either system and specifically to denigrate Bolt Action somehow. Nearly every aspect about the two systems is entirely different, with perhaps the shared experience of using models and rolling dice and measuring ranges.

I agree with the first statement (and would instead say they both share common ancestry) but disagree with the second. The core resolution mechanics of the games are very, very similar in terms of rolling X dice per figure based on weapon type. In the 60s and 70s, there were a lot of conventions/common practices for miniature wargaming rather than set rules. Games would some times even present a few different mechanics for a given subsystem for you to choose from. The popularity of count up figures, roll that X dice per figure depending on weapon type, pick up all the hits and roll to wound/save/cover is something that grew out of that period of people figuring out what conventions they wanted to adopt as rules. So when the first version of Warhammer came out in the 80s, it was a natural choice. And lots of games have gone with that same approach as well. It's not that BA is based on 40k, but that both are based on time tested and proven approaches that the designers know people often enjoy.

People see the common elements of both Warhammer and Bolt Action and the same name on the cover an natural assume some sort of connection. They just don't realize that the connection is to a third common ancestor (wargaming common practices from the 70s).

Manchu wrote:The hostility toward BA is a great example of elitism in historicals, which is why I stayed away from historicals for so long. IME, folks who play sci fi and fantasy games don't put on airs like the historicals crowd. Maybe it is harder to take onself so seriously pushing around toy goblins instead of toy Nazis.

I think this may also be an over-generalization of a few individuals onto the the group. The same arrogant individuals who take a dump on the hobby of others would do so from whatever height they can justify themselves being at. If they are WM/H players taking a dump on 40k players, they'll talk about things from a tighter rules perspective. If they are 40k players taking a dump on Mantic players, they'll make fun of the PVC plastic miniatures. The difference between them and arrogant historical players is that the historical players have a very easy thing to grab on to (historical accuracy).

However, there is also a defensiveness that is actually another form of arrogance. That we've somehow figured out the hobby is really about X and anyone who doesn't agree is "putting on airs" or the are "type of people who keep others out of the hobby." It's okay if a group of players doesn't like my favorite rules set for whatever reason and them expressing it doesn't necessarily make them someone trying to dump on me. It's okay that one set of rules has a different set of design goals than another and those preferences line up with real preferences held by others.

Someone pointing out that the set army lists and penchant for match ups between armies that never met in the field makes DBA (an ancients rules set) less historical (and thus they prefer some other set of rules) doesn't mean that person is "putting on airs." You say something like that about Bolt Action and just as there is always someone willing to come into a BA thread to talk about another rules set, there will be a true believer or two that freaks out. Not Bolt Action players in general, but a few overly defensive individuals who see the pointing out of any weaknesses in their game of choice as somehow reflecting on them.

Bolt Action is a fantastic and enjoyable game. The designers made some choices that prioritize game play and as a result the game is great fun, but if you want to re-fight a small action from the actual war, you may have to adjust it to fit BA rather than expect BA to be able to just offer a straight re-fight like some other rules can (which were designed for that purpose-- different design goals). I know there have been some WW2 scenarios based on actual actions as articles in magazines like Battle Games, Wargames Illustrated, Wargames Soldiers & Strategy that just won't work for BA because of the short weapon ranges. Pointing that out doesn't mean I'm putting on airs or being arrogant. It just means I'm saying you've got the wrong tool for the job, so adjust the scenario to fit your chosen rules and squish the map closer together when you're building your terrain and figuring out where troops deploy so the scenario will work (or choose another tool designed for this type of game from the ground up).

 frozenwastes wrote:
That we've somehow figured out the hobby is really about X and anyone who doesn't agree is "putting on airs" or the are "type of people who keep others out of the hobby."

What a ridiculous strawman you've stitched together, frozenwastes.

 frozenwastes wrote:
if you want to re-fight a small action from the actual war

The only battle you can "re-fight" with a game is an earlier instance of that game.

 Manchu wrote:

 frozenwastes wrote:
That we've somehow figured out the hobby is really about X and anyone who doesn't agree is "putting on airs" or the are "type of people who keep others out of the hobby."

What a ridiculous strawman you've stitched together, frozenwastes.

I see it all the time. Considering others so odious that they kept you out of the hobby sounds pretty damn elitist to me. It's just funny that it's elitism against elitists.

 frozenwastes wrote:
if you want to re-fight a small action from the actual war

The only battle you can "re-fight" with a game is an earlier instance of that game.