Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Yes! They are supposed to be a supplementary allied force.

Oh, but if you want to field anyone you NEED to have:

Exactly 3 troupes
Exactly 1 unit of Voidweavers
Exactly 2 units of Starweavers

Bare minimum with DTs for each troupe, (since you aren't footslogging 3 min troupes across the board) is around 800 points. You want special weapons in the troupes? 850. You want units of 3 Skyweavers with haywire? Almost 1000. You want a Solitaire, any elite attachments?

To even play Harlequins, you need to dedicate nearly half your army to them. They can't run CAD or Allied detachments-they can't bring an HQ because they don't have one. Harlequins are shaping up to be awful because Harlequins are insanely inflexible.

Is a unit of harlies chock-full of special weaponry good? Probably. Are they points efficient? At 19 points a model, T3 5++, even if they did manage to totally wipe some unit before getting wasted by the nearest 10 man squad of lasgun guardsmen, you've lost points. They have lots of options but no matter how you equip them there's a different unit in the DE or Eldar codex who does it better for fewer points.

The tired old 40k argument of "these units are for FLUFF gaming, these units are for COMPETITIVE gaming" is a lazy excuse for allowing a lazy company to get away with lazy balance. I can pick up Malifaux, create a fluffy flavorful army with a theme and a personality and make it all my own, and be able to play it against most any other army and stand a chance. If GW wants Superheavies and Death Stars and flyers and crazy psychic powers to be part of their game, they need to keep them in mind when creating new armies. You can't just write an army that would have worked in 5th but is woefully unprepared for 7th and wonder why your opponents aren't carefully not choosing any of the options they have that you can't deal with.

 Vash108 wrote:
Isn't really meant to be more of a Ally than a stand alone?

You can use it either way.
I played the Harlie codex made by Gav Thorpe several times a few years ago.
All my Marine opponents lost.
Today, the game is different with overwatch, flyers, and whatnot.
A stand alone Harlie army will have a hard time at the comp level.
However, I think particularly Marine players should try Harlies or DE.
It will give them a different feeling and experience playing 40k.

I do think they're rather... underwhelming.

I mean, they don't have to be as well-rounded and competitive as a full-fledged faction codex. But they should at least "plug the gaps" in the Eldar and DE codex. Everything they can do, you can do with the regular codex - the Solitaire is the only thing that stands out to me. This is dataslate material.

Pure Harlies will always win against pure LotD...

 Kanluwen wrote:

 SilverDevilfish wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 SilverDevilfish wrote:
You're missing the point of the Harlie dex. It's not to make a competent force, it's to force Eldar players to buy the Harlie dex if they want to field Harlequins in their army when the new Eldar codex hits.

They didn't do it with Tempestus, I would be VERY surprised if they did it with Eldar/Harlequin.

Yes but they did do it with Inquisition and Assassins. Also notice the lack of Harlequins in the new DE codex?

Notice the inclusion of Tempestus in the Guard codex?

And really, Assassins and Inquisition shouldn't have been part of Codex: Grey Knights to begin with. They should have been parted out long before.

Nice, now explain why Harlies weren't in DE, I notice you glossed over that. I don't see why you brought up Tempestus again either, I already answered with an affirmative.

the_scotsman wrote:
Yes! They are supposed to be a supplementary allied force.

Oh, but if you want to field anyone you NEED to have:

Exactly 3 troupes
Exactly 1 unit of Voidweavers
Exactly 2 units of Starweavers

Bare minimum with DTs for each troupe, (since you aren't footslogging 3 min troupes across the board) is around 800 points. You want special weapons in the troupes? 850. You want units of 3 Skyweavers with haywire? Almost 1000. You want a Solitaire, any elite attachments?

To even play Harlequins, you need to dedicate nearly half your army to them. They can't run CAD or Allied detachments-they can't bring an HQ because they don't have one. Harlequins are shaping up to be awful because Harlequins are insanely inflexible.

Is a unit of harlies chock-full of special weaponry good? Probably. Are they points efficient? At 19 points a model, T3 5++, even if they did manage to totally wipe some unit before getting wasted by the nearest 10 man squad of lasgun guardsmen, you've lost points. They have lots of options but no matter how you equip them there's a different unit in the DE or Eldar codex who does it better for fewer points.

The tired old 40k argument of "these units are for FLUFF gaming, these units are for COMPETITIVE gaming" is a lazy excuse for allowing a lazy company to get away with lazy balance. I can pick up Malifaux, create a fluffy flavorful army with a theme and a personality and make it all my own, and be able to play it against most any other army and stand a chance. If GW wants Superheavies and Death Stars and flyers and crazy psychic powers to be part of their game, they need to keep them in mind when creating new armies. You can't just write an army that would have worked in 5th but is woefully unprepared for 7th and wonder why your opponents aren't carefully not choosing any of the options they have that you can't deal with.

You don't need to take 5 Starweavers "minimum" to run Harlequins. You can take 2 as Fast Attack and then put two of your squads in them. Maybe the third squad will go in another Starweaver, or maybe it will deep strike in with a Webway Portal - we don't know yet whether they will have access to that piece of wargear. The minimum investment to run a Masque is 500 points on the nose. Also, it is reasonably safe to assume the Codex will have formations that will not require you to take a full Masque. I will be running them alongside CWE, and will have 2 Wave Serpents and a Crimson Hunter for anti-air. Also, Harlies are 15 ppm, not 19. I assume you just divided the cost of Troupe by 5, but keep in mind the Troupe Master has two wounds and an extra attack, so you are paying a bit more than 15 for him.

"They're just meant to be a supplement Dex, not supposed to be a full competitive codex!"

So...why am I paying for a full 50$ codex instead of a supplement? Why is there a two HUNDRED DOLLAR special edition for 7 units? I think GW will have to include a coloring book at the end to be able to bind it in hardcover.

 Sir Arun wrote:
- Dont the Kisses have rending?

- I'm pretty sure there's a lot of fusion pistols the Harlies can pack.

- true

- I'm pretty sure the flip belts give inv. saves, though crappy ones.

- invisibility is at most cast on 1 deathstar unit every 1500+ points army in general.

IMO harlies are no worse off than Codex: LotD or Codex: Militarum Tempestus

Those things are supplement. They are meant to be terrible if you use them alone. Which is why you normally play Legion of the Damn with Space Marines and Tempestus with Astra Militarum.

the_scotsman wrote:
"They're just meant to be a supplement Dex, not supposed to be a full competitive codex!"

So...why am I paying for a full 50$ codex instead of a supplement? Why is there a two HUNDRED DOLLAR special edition for 7 units? I think GW will have to include a coloring book at the end to be able to bind it in hardcover.

Then dont buy it? Or are you physically being forced to spend money by GW representatives?

Bharring wrote:
Pure Harlies will always win against pure LotD...

Enjoy that exalt, sir. You earned it

the_scotsman wrote:
Unless the rules for the Shadowseer, Death Jester, Masque and Enigmas turn out to be some level of absolutely absurd, that is.

If you bring Harlequins, you need your opponent to have:

-No high toughness Death Star units (wraith guards, spawn, Bikers, Grotesques, whatever) and no Monstrous creatures (wraithknights, Riptides, Dreadknights) because everything's gotta be REALLY scared of S3/4 AP - melee attacks.

-NO Superheavies, because harlies rely on some incredibly piddly anti tank options in terms of volume of fire. A IK would probably take three turns to shoot down with a full 2000pt harlequin army

-No flyers, because anti-air options don't exist. Or flying MCs for that matter. That's okay those aren't common.

-No ignores cover. Because all the vehicles foot infantry and bikes rely pretty heavily on cover saves.

-No invisibility, because it makes your uber high WS pointless. But nobody takes that power anyway.

They just seem like an army of everything that is the absolute worst stuff to take in the game right now. I get that you're supposed to make up their weaknesses with Eldar and DE, but in what situation would I not just want Dire Avengers in a WS or Kabalites in a Raider over harlequins? The only armies I can think of that wouldn't have to specifically try to construct a list for the harlies to stand a chance against are guard and sisters.

Sometimes I wonder, when they come out with the Necron rules and the Harlequin rules back to back, does anyone at GW play test anything? Or even talk to each other?

It's almost as if you've never heard of the Scion codex or the Legion of the Damned codex.

the_scotsman wrote:
Yes! They are supposed to be a supplementary allied force.

Oh, but if you want to field anyone you NEED to have:

Exactly 3 troupes
Exactly 1 unit of Voidweavers
Exactly 2 units of Starweavers

Bare minimum with DTs for each troupe, (since you aren't footslogging 3 min troupes across the board) is around 800 points. You want special weapons in the troupes? 850. You want units of 3 Skyweavers with haywire? Almost 1000. You want a Solitaire, any elite attachments?

This is untrue. The Codex will have 6 formations:

Rules for fielding your collection of Harlequins in games of Warhammer 40,000 including army special rules and 6 formations
http://www.games-workshop.com/en-CA/Codex-Harlequins-English-NAS

At least wait for the Codex to come out bash the Harlequins :\

I have a feeling OP will regret "bopping" the clowns.
These clowns "bop" back.

If they were the worst army, who could blame them? They're a bunch of interstellar space elf murder clowns who DANCE stories to entertain a stiff crowd Eldar craftworld (which have probably heard the story a million times) first, and are ultra freak out psychedelic breakdance karate clown ninjas when they feel like stepping in and serving game.

They're not an army, they're an ally book. It's like the GK, you don't field them alone, you field them to get stuff for Eldar/DE.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
They're not an army, they're an ally book. It's like the GK, you don't field them alone, you field them to get stuff for Eldar/DE.

Yeah, they sound like a solid add to break up serpent spam

I haven't seen anything g yet they couldn't take down. 2x5 man units with harlequins caress could drop an imlerial knight in one turn, without rolling an armor penetration check. Their primaris power won't let you hit them at all from more than 24" away, and I used the solitaire in a game against grey knights, he wipped out 5 terminators in two turns by himself. They have answers, and I am gladly fielding g them stand alone

I think they look like a complete blast to play. Looks like a finesse army with unique answers to many popular builds.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
I haven't seen anything g yet they couldn't take down. 2x5 man units with harlequins caress could drop an imlerial knight in one turn, without rolling an armor penetration check. Their primaris power won't let you hit them at all from more than 24" away, and I used the solitaire in a game against grey knights, he wipped out 5 terminators in two turns by himself. They have answers, and I am gladly fielding g them stand alone

The Solitaire looks like a rockin' beast on the field. The whole army looks phenomenal on terrain heavy, urban maps, especially versus high cost/low model count armies.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
They're not an army, they're an ally book. It's like the GK, you don't field them alone, you field them to get stuff for Eldar/DE.

Eldar or DE don't need Harlie allies.
There is nothing Harlies could give them in a world of shootyness.

Talys wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
They're not an army, they're an ally book. It's like the GK, you don't field them alone, you field them to get stuff for Eldar/DE.

Yeah, they sound like a solid add to break up serpent spam

I mean, the super-duper-ultra-special-edition-Codex-of-awesome comes with Sanctic cards. I'm bracing myself for people screaming when they realize there's going to be a rerollable 2+/3++ Wraithblade deathstar (Fortune, Sanctuary, and Protect, before you ask) Gating into their face.

 wuestenfux wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
They're not an army, they're an ally book. It's like the GK, you don't field them alone, you field them to get stuff for Eldar/DE.

Eldar or DE don't need Harlie allies.
There is nothing Harlies could give them in a world of shootyness.

They might not need them per say but that doesn't mean people won't want to play them. I think it's fairly obvious that the intent of the codex is to use Eldar or DE as the base list and ally the Harlequins, with the option to use them as a stand alone if you want to. Pretty much like Tempestus Scions but at least this time the units in the codex are unique and not literally in the main codex, exactly the same...

 wuestenfux wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
They're not an army, they're an ally book. It's like the GK, you don't field them alone, you field them to get stuff for Eldar/DE.

Eldar or DE don't need Harlie allies.
There is nothing Harlies could give them in a world of shootyness.

Sanctic for the deathstar and a decent melee unit to pop out of Raiders if you're playing casually enough that your Raider lasts longer than a kite made of tissue paper in a Dragonlance fight.

Aren't the Harlequins supposed to be, basically, librarians (and not in the Space Marine way)? A little soft-shoe, some acapella numbers and a bunch of interpretive dance routines in a library that almost no one ever gets to visit?

Why the hell would you expect them to be war-gods as well?

Well, they're Eldar, so they fight at least as well as any other Eldar (which is pretty damn good, quick, strong, insane reactions etc) and their dance is probably more like a martial art than a dance.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
They're not an army, they're an ally book. It's like the GK, you don't field them alone, you field them to get stuff for Eldar/DE.

Eldar or DE don't need Harlie allies.
There is nothing Harlies could give them in a world of shootyness.

Sanctic for the deathstar and a decent melee unit to pop out of Raiders if you're playing casually enough that your Raider lasts longer than a kite made of tissue paper in a Dragonlance fight.

Agreed, also overlooking the fact that they cover more niches than the base armies (Eldar/DE). The Jetbikes would be great in tandem with Reavers, the Solitaire is probably a better fighter than most of the DE HQ's, and Harlequins are basically Wyches that can actually do their damn job.

Like others have said, Harlies are likely intended to be allied with DE/CWE. If there was any doubt before, the new Harlie psychic powers seem to clear this up as they work incredibly well with DE and CWE leadership debuffing/Psychic Scream abilities. A Shadowseer with Mask/Armor of Misery wielding Succubus w/WWP in a Grotesquerie is a -5 to any enemy unit's Leadership. Combined with Harlie psychic powers 5 or 6, this combo can do some serious damage to a unit before they even charge in. It looks like the evil space clowns synergize really well with the evil space elves.

Arnais wrote:
It always has bugged me that the so called much more advanced technology of the eldar is never really show on table top. Armour is worse, fusion guns are worse, plasma weapons are worse, bright lance is 90% of the times worse than a las cannon, ccw are worse, flyesr are worse, and my personal favorite, SM can easily get 3++ inv and the best the "advanced" eldar are able to give to their wraith constructs is a 5++.

From a "realistic" point of view, eldar plasma weapons are much better, because they don't kill their user. Shurken weapons are much better than bolters. Armor is the same, actually, with eldar having equivalents for flak, carapace, and power armor. (Lumbering terminators are not really Eldar style.). The bright lance is paying for its superiority against AV14. (Arent't fusion guns identical to meltas?)

Bikes are much better. Las weapons are much much better. Jump troops that can teleport are much better. Pretty much everything seems to be much better.

8th Ed will see Pistols used as CCWs with their S and AP, not the models. This will be one of the fundamental changes to the game that encourages Assaults, making the new Harliquins viable. This new codex was written for 8th, not 7th.

Just say'n.

SJ

Intriguing. Is this based on any inside information or is this a guess?