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Thought I would start this off as no one else has.

Codex has leaked almost in it's entirety; you can piece it together from

This thread shouldn't really be to argue whether or not they an stand alone in a competitive environment (they probably can't).
It's to record the theory crafting and actual anecdotal experiences of playing the units and thoughts on making the most competitive list possible.

I'll put a set of peoples thoughts in the first post as a sort of guide to the units after a couple of weeks.

HOWEVER,

I've got a question to start off. Can you see yourself using a Troupe of 10 on foot with a Shadowseer or Farseer for protection?

I could see using a full Troupe with Shadowseer and/or DJ if I could somehow be certain of Infiltrating/DSing them (such as by using an attached WWP Archon) or could put them in a transport that would still allow them to Assault (for example, a Raider).

Actually, I might just get them a Raider. I'm likely to be playing them Unbound anyway, and it could be a cool conversion opportunity.

I am liking the look of the Lonely Path formation (Sol, DJ, SS, Infiltrate, Stealth+Shrouding on each) as a plug-in set of Allies. The DJ parks in Ruins or other terrain for a 2+ Cover save, and does his thing, while the Solitaire becomes a missile pointed at the best target. The Shadowseer will either go for an early brain-melt power on something that warrants it (Riptides, Termies, other expensive models with poor/no ++ saves) or hangs back a bit, depending on what powers he rolls.

Last week (before we knew the rules for the SS, DJ, and formations), I used a harlequin primary with an eldar CAD. I was seriously impressed with the Solitaire, both in resiliency and destruction. He only took 1 wound the entire game and was able to lock up a seer council for three turns, then hit & run away to contest the relic.

I second the idea that the company of heroes formation (1 of each elite) is a nice benefit to getting the models on the table, especially if you want a more traditional army.

I'm testing out the main formation with everything, seeing as how I already have 90% of the models and good proxies/conversions for the rest. The biggest boon of it is re-rolling 1's, especially when combined with the starmist raiment on the warlord or the solitaire in general. Pressing crescendo is also amazing for them, considering the aforementioned raiment.

I am playing harlies in an escalation campaign, starting at 750 and moving up. Since I don't have any transports yet due to the models not being a thing, I'm going with two squads of three haywire skyweavers, a Solitaire, and a squad of fusion-centric harlies with a wwp archon and shadowseer. We'll see how this goes.

I think the army that's going to benefit the most are the Dark Eldar, simply for the fact that you can do this

Dark Eldar Real Space Raider Detachment allows the 6 fast attack options for Raiders and the Archon can take a Dedicated venom which the Harlequin squads can join or you can take full squads and purchase raiders for them with the fast attack.

So you can

HQ
Archon w/ Venom
Retinue w/ Venoms
Troops
5x Kabalit Warriors w/ Blaster and Venom
5x Kabalite Warriors w/ Blaster and Venom

Fast Attack
1 Raider
1 Raider
Razor Wing
Razor Wing

Harlequins

9 Harlequins
9 Harlequins
5 Harlequins
Death Jester (to go with the Warriors in the Venoms
Death Jester ( to go with the Warriors in the Venoms )
Shadowseer
Shadowseer
Solitaire

I agree, Raiders should help a lot. Being able to take more than a minimum Troupe and Character per Transport is nice, and it you can use Voidweavers for Fire Support with 2 Shuricannons and a Prismatic or Haywire Cannon each.

Not to mention sticking Death Jesters in a Squad of 5 Warriors in a Venom.

12 Poison Shots
3 or 4? ST6 Shots

Where can I find a leak of the codex that has the rules compiled and I can fully show the firepower the army can put out. It's kind of ridiculous because you can combine Ravagers for High ST shots and then the Voidweavers for the Haywire.

I mean it's just nuts the amount of firepower and assault with haywire and blasts you can do each turn.

Here's a list I posted in the list forum yesterday, but I got no feedback, so I figure I'll post it again here. I will be giving a go in a few weeks once I get the models for it (I really just need the two Starweavers and one Voidweaver):

Masque Detachment:

Light Troupe
- 5x CCW
- 2x Fusion Pistol, 3x Shuriken Pistol
- Haywire Grenade on Troupe Master

Twilight Troupe
- 4x Kiss
- 1x Caress on Troupe Master
- 1x Neuro Disruptor on Troupe Master/4x Shuriken Pistol

Dark Troupe
- 5x Embrace
- 5x Shuriken Pistol
- Haywire Grenade on the Troupe Master

Skyweaver Jetbikes x4
- Haywire Cannons

Shadowseer
- ML2

Shadowseer
- ML2

Death Jester
- Haywire Grenades

Solitaire

2x Starweaver (1 is a Dedicated Transport, 1 is Fast Attack)

1x Void Weaver
-Prismatic Cannon

Eldar Allies:

Spiritseer

10x Guardians
- Scatter Laser Platform
- Wave Serpent as dedicated transport (Scatter Lasers, Holo-Fields, Shuriken Cannon)

5x Fire Dragons
- Wave Serpent as dedicated transport (same loadout)

Crimson Hunter w/Dual Bright Lance

1848 points.

The idea is to have a very fast, hard-hitting Harlequin force backed up with Eldar firepower to cover the gaps in the Harlequin Codex (specifically, long-range firepower and anti-air).

1 Troupe (the one with Harlequin's kisses) footslogs it with a Shadowseer casting Veil of Tears to protect them early on, while the other two move up in Star Weavers to aggressively control the center. Wave Serpents and the Doomweaver move up behind, focusing on enemy flyers and transports. The Fusion Pistol/CCW troupe is a disposable unit that is meant to be dropped off early by a Starweaver, blast something with two FPs and a Haywire Grenade, charge the vehicle and grenade it if it's still there (or charge the contents if they popped a transport) and then promptly be shot to death. I am not in love with this unit, but I have about 10 Harlequins in finecast and metal with CCWs and Fusion Pistols, so I think it's worth giving them a go. If they suck, they will probably get booted from the list (requiring me to buy MORE HARLEQUINS).

The bikes are there as a harassment unit (plus, rule of cool). My thought is that you probably burn the Mirage Launchers early so that you don't need to jink with the bikes when you take the first volley to the face. The idea would be to set up a turn two charge with the Harlequin troupes while the bikes try to pop the enemy's transports with their Haywire Cannons. The chances of getting two haywire hits with the bikes is pretty good at BS4. I kept the stock bolas to save points, as the bikes are already expensive and the lack of grenades mean they will often be attacking at I1, so I don't see the 40 points needed to upgrade to glaives as a good investment. (As an aside, if I planned on running the formation where your bikes can re-roll failed jink saves, I would probably swap the loadout to Shuriken Cannons and Glaives, but I think the haywire will be more all-around useful). I am toying with the idea of giving 1 bike a glaive, but points are short and I don't know that it's worth it.

The Dark Troupe (with Embraces) likely has the warlord, and will have an attached Shadowseer. 5D3 S6 Hammer of War attacks from the Embraces make this unit pretty dangerous to just about everything short of AV13+ (and they can even hit invisible units and rear facings on walkers with the HoW attacks) [EDIT: this doesn't work any more according to the recent FAQs. Thank you, GW, for making Knights even harder to kill!]. I would like to find the points to put the Ld nuking mask (can't remember the name) on the Shadowseer, too, but haven't decided what to cut to get it (suggestions welcome - maybe drop the Shuriken Cannons on the Wave Serpents? They seem a little redundant.).

The Guardians and Fire Dragons fit with the overall theme, as well as providing respectable anti-infantry/anti-tank potential, but they are really there so you can field two Serpents. I considered DAs, but what I really want from this unit is a durable objective grabber, and thus I prefer the 5 extra wounds the Guardians get, and they have the same save if I park them in a ruin. They will hopefully sit in cover near an objective and plink away with the Scatter Laser (I am considering changing this to a Starcannon. Any thoughts?). Spiritseer goes with the Guardians.

The Crimson Hunter is really just there for anti-air, but it provides extra long-ranged anti-tank in the event I come up against something like a Knight or other AV13 walkers that my Harlequins don't really want to tangle with. I will probably proxy the Hunter as a Hemlock Wraithfighter at some point to see how it works. When combined with the Death Jester and the Shadowseer's Leadership attacks, it could be pretty nasty, but using a Hemlock means giving up on anti-air (since the D-Scythes can't hit flyers). It might still be worth it, I will have to see.

There are a lot of different ways this could be switched around. War Walkers are another option I have considered, as is the third Starweaver, but something else will have to go.

Looks like a solid list to me, both thematic and fun to play. Personally, I`d make room for another Death Jester (those guys just look awesome on paper) for a bit of extra reliability, but I'm not sure what you'd want to drop. I do like the way you've done the Light, Dark and Twilight Troupes as well, very cool!

Basically the D. Eldar Real Space Raider w/ this detachment

Formations

1) 3 Troups, 3 DJ, 3 SS, 1 Solitaire, 2 units of Skyweavers, 1 unit of Voidweavers
Restriction: none
Special rules:
– outstanding performace (you may reroll inv saves of 1 for all the models of the formation)
– emissary of Cegorach (if the troup master is your warlord, you can reroll his harlequin’s warlord trait)
– pressing Crescendo (from the beginning of turn 2, all units in this formation with the Fleet special rule can Run and Charge in the same turn) <– this is huge!



Is all you need. Stick the Shadowseers with a unit of Grotesques, congratulations your grotesque units have hit and run , LD 10. The combos possible with the Harlequins and Dark Eldar are disgusting.

 Paradigm wrote:
Looks like a solid list to me, both thematic and fun to play. Personally, I`d make room for another Death Jester (those guys just look awesome on paper) for a bit of extra reliability, but I'm not sure what you'd want to drop. I do like the way you've done the Light, Dark and Twilight Troupes as well, very cool!

Thanks! I would like to have another Death Jester as well. The easiest way to fit him in would be to turn the Guardians into Dire Avengers, but then I still need to find another 20 or so points. Cutting haywire grenades here and there could do the trick, as I already have quite a bit of anti-vehicle in the list. But, I may just roll with this for now and see if I feel the need for another DJ.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hollismason wrote:
Basically the D. Eldar Real Space Raider w/ this detachment

Stick the Shadowseers with a unit of Grotesques, congratulations your grotesque units have hit and run , LD 10. The combos possible with the Harlequins and Dark Eldar are disgusting.

Yeah, that's a pretty nasty* idea.

*aka awesome

Yeah the formation has everything you'd want in it for a Dark Eldar army, access to Telepathy, Access to crazy gak like the Death Jesters.

Like this

Shadow Seer w/ Masque , 3 Grotesques , Raider

Archon w/ Armour of Misery, WWP with 5 Harlequins in a Venom

4 Court of the Archon Lhaemen w/ Death Jester , Venom

1 Unit of 5 Warriors w/ 2 Venom Cannons Death Jester

1 Unit of 5 Warriros w/ 2 Venom Cannons Death Jester


Deep Strike with Archon w/ Web Way Portal Give all units near him -2, add in the Masque for another -2 , Add in the 3 Death jesters

Enjoy units that are not fearless taking moral tests on -6.

Oh and the whole , 48 Poisoned Shots from the Venoms and the -4 Psychic Shrieks.

You could also just WWP in 3 Seers w/ the Archon and fire off 3 Psychic Shrieks at -4 each, then fire at another 3 units with the Death Jester.

Where can I find the base costs for the Harlequins and their upgrades along with the Spirit Seer and Death Jester costs? Cause then I could actually flesh the army out.

Without going crazy, im thinking of just getting:

1 of each character (3 all together)
3 Transports
3 troupes
1 Heavy Support version
A full unit of jetbikes.

Simply put a troupe and a character in each transport and fly around hoping that the many saves I have keep them alive in time for combat.

The list also keeps them in the battleforged zone.

Not competitive, nor well thought out, but doesnt seem terrible either. Any tips?

 Swastakowey wrote:
Without going crazy, im thinking of just getting:

1 of each character (3 all together)
3 Transports
3 troupes
1 Heavy Support version
A full unit of jetbikes.

Simply put a troupe and a character in each transport and fly around hoping that the many saves I have keep them alive in time for combat.

The list also keeps them in the battleforged zone.

Not competitive, nor well thought out, but doesnt seem terrible either. Any tips?

It's not a bad list, but I think the full unit of bikes is not the best. The reason why is that the bikes aren't particularly hardy, and thus need to rely on hiding and the assault move to get out of trouble. Bigger units will have a harder time hiding since the models are pretty good sized (longer than a Vyper but not as tall). Also, I think with 8 bikes shooting haywire, you are likely to be overkilling most vehicles short of Knights. I assume (based on some mental math) that about half of the haywire blasts will hit a larger target most of the time (i.e. 1/3 of the time you roll a "hit," then you will probably get a few that scatter only a short distance and still clip the target with Harlies' decent BS4). Against, say, a Leman Russ, anything more than 3 hits will be wasted (barring that occasional "1" on the haywire chart). Against jinking skimmers, excess hits are of course more valuable. On the other hand, the above theoryhammer suggests that 2 bikes is not enough to do anything of value, as you are not even getting to the point where you can "expect" 1 haywire hit. The magic number is probably somewhere in between. I'm going to try 4 as that is the number that's in two boxes, but the sweet spot might be as high as 5 or 6. I also hesitate to put so many points into a single squad of T4 models, as it just makes them a really big, efficient target to shoot at.

Also, I don't think the Solitaire can join the Troupe in the Starweaver. I could be wrong about that - I know he can't join any other unit, but I'm not sure whether he could use the spare seat in a Starweaver that is already in use by a Troupe.

As an aside, I think the hardest thing about this whole Harlequin army is going to be figuring out what weapons the troupes should have. I am leaning toward the Embrace, as it is the best weapon against Necron Wraiths by a long mile, and I think those things are going to be everywhere. But, I could definitely see the other weapons being all-stars based on your meta (instant-deathing Riptides with Kisses sounds fun, for example, as does beating down Knights with Caresses).

Good point with the jetbikes. Ill try having 4 on the field and then I can always add another squad of them later.

Yea with only 6 seats I thought I would have to only have 5 Harlequins per squad to fit them. If thats legal.

For weapons I have no idea yet. I will wait for the codex so I can have a good look without sifting through rumours.

 Swastakowey wrote:

Yea with only 6 seats I thought I would have to only have 5 Harlequins per squad to fit them. If thats legal.

It's definitely legal with the Death Jester and Shadowseer if you're taking min squads. The Solitaire is the odd man out because he can't join another unit, and I don't know if jumping in a vehicle currently inhabited with another squad counts as joining it.

Yeah, the Solitare either has to have a Transport of his own or run solo (as the name implies). Still, he's fast enough on his own, and in T3+ can use his Blitz move if he really needs to shift.

Hmmm, this makes the solitaire interesting for sure. I guess thats alright though. Just have one transport with 6 Harlequins in it and have the solitaire do whatever it does alone.

Yeah I don't see the point of having the transport with the Solitaire at all.

Here are the Harlequin weapons:

They come stock with Shuriken Pistols and CCWs. 15 points a pop. The base cost of a Troupe averages out to higher than 15 b/c you are paying for the Troupe Master as well.

5 pence to upgrade to the Kiss
5 pence to upgrade to the Embrace
8 pence to upgrade to the Caress

The Kiss turns one die (which is rolled separately during the attack roll) into a Kiss of Death attack: S6 AP2, instant death on a 6 on the to wound roll. All of the other attacks made by that Harlequin (i.e. 3/4 of them on the charge) are unaffected by the Kiss.

The Embrace gives the Harlequin D3 S6 Hammer of War attacks on the charge. No AP value, and no effect on regular attacks (and, of course, no effect on subsequent rounds of combat. But, hit and run).

The Caress auto-wounds at AP2 on a 6 on the TO HIT roll. If a 6 is rolled against a vehicle in CC, it auto-glances. It has not effect on attacks where you don't roll a 6. At 8 pence, the Caress increases the cost of each Harlie by >50%.

All the weapons have preferred targets, as you can probably see. Caress is best against walkers and tough MCs like Wraithknights, where those auto-wounds/glances are a godsend. Kiss is best against MEQ, TEQ and any kind of multi-wound model EXCEPT T7+. Embrace works best against hordes (since they usually have crap armor and thus the AP- doesn't matter) and models that rely on invuln saves (like Wraiths) where you really need to cause a lot of wounds or you're going to get thrashed on the counter-attack.

I like the embrace. If six of them charge, thats 6-18 S6 hits on the charge not counting their standard attacks.

The kiss would be my other choice.

I think the caress is a bit much.

Probably best to have each unit all upgraded the same and just have each one a job to do before the battle starts.

Do the harlequins come with grenades or anything?

Worth mentioning that the Troupe Master can also take a Power Sword, which with his significant number of attacks could well be pretty handy. Unlike the other options, it doesn't require anything beyond the normal hit/wound rolls to 'work', affects all his attacks and persists through combat. There is also a Relic one which grants +1 Strength and AP3, which is quite expensive but could be very decent at racking up kills on T4 3+ units.

I'm thinking Power Sword on the Master, Embrace on the rest for Anti-Horde, and Power Sword and Kiss on the rest for anti-Elite. The Caress is good, and I can see taking one or two per 5 minis, but never outfitting a full squad with them as it catapults the cost a bit too high considering they are still fairly fragile.

 Paradigm wrote:
Worth mentioning that the Troupe Master can also take a Power Sword, which with his significant number of attacks could well be pretty handy. Unlike the other options, it doesn't require anything beyond the normal hit/wound rolls to 'work', affects all his attacks and persists through combat. There is also a Relic one which grants +1 Strength and AP3, which is quite expensive but could be very decent at racking up kills on T4 3+ units.

I'm thinking Power Sword on the Master, Embrace on the rest for Anti-Horde, and Power Sword and Kiss on the rest for anti-Elite. The Caress is good, and I can see taking one or two per 5 minis, but never outfitting a full squad with them as it catapults the cost a bit too high considering they are still fairly fragile.

I like the sound of that sort of set up too.

How decent are these guys statistically in melee? Could 6 of them reliably take on 10-20 Necron warriors in combat for example?

 Paradigm wrote:
Worth mentioning that the Troupe Master can also take a Power Sword, which with his significant number of attacks could well be pretty handy. Unlike the other options, it doesn't require anything beyond the normal hit/wound rolls to 'work', affects all his attacks and persists through combat. There is also a Relic one which grants +1 Strength and AP3, which is quite expensive but could be very decent at racking up kills on T4 3+ units.

I'm thinking Power Sword on the Master, Embrace on the rest for Anti-Horde, and Power Sword and Kiss on the rest for anti-Elite. The Caress is good, and I can see taking one or two per 5 minis, but never outfitting a full squad with them as it catapults the cost a bit too high considering they are still fairly fragile.

I agree - I think the power sword might be worth trying. It's kind of expensive, but it is very reliable. If I knew I was fighting PA marines, I would definitely consider one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Swastakowey wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:
Worth mentioning that the Troupe Master can also take a Power Sword, which with his significant number of attacks could well be pretty handy. Unlike the other options, it doesn't require anything beyond the normal hit/wound rolls to 'work', affects all his attacks and persists through combat. There is also a Relic one which grants +1 Strength and AP3, which is quite expensive but could be very decent at racking up kills on T4 3+ units.

I'm thinking Power Sword on the Master, Embrace on the rest for Anti-Horde, and Power Sword and Kiss on the rest for anti-Elite. The Caress is good, and I can see taking one or two per 5 minis, but never outfitting a full squad with them as it catapults the cost a bit too high considering they are still fairly fragile.

I like the sound of that sort of set up too.

How decent are these guys statistically in melee? Could 6 of them reliably take on 10-20 Necron warriors in combat for example?

6 Harlequins puts out 25 attacks at WS6, against Necrons they'd be hitting on 3s. So 16 hits on the charge at S4 (and that's just with close combat weapons). You'd do about 8 wounds, then they get their saves. They save half, then at least one will make its RP roll. ~3 Necrons die. Meh.

Obviously, the special weapons change the equation quite a bit. If they were running Embraces, and you can make base contact with everyone in the Troupe (not that unlikely if you can move-run-charge with Fleet using the detachment special rule), you'd be talking about ~35 attacks, with 10 of them auto hitting at S6. Now the Necrons are making 16-ish saves instead of 8. Similarly, with the Kisses/Caress/Power Sword, you would be denying them their regular armor saves altogether on the "special hits" (and on a 6 with the Kiss they just get a 6+ reanimation protocol roll, b/c instant death). In that scenario, you are probably winning combat and sweeping them.

Bear in mind that even +3 Casualties against Crons gives them a decent chance to Fall Back and be swept by your High-Initiative Troupe, even moreso if you have someone with the -2 Ld relic somewhere nearby. I don't think they guys are winning a war of attrittion, but with high initative, Hit and Run and gear that does most damage on the Charge, they aren't likely to find themselves in that kind of fight.

 Paradigm wrote:
Bear in mind that even +3 Casualties against Crons gives them a decent chance to Fall Back and be swept by your High-Initiative Troupe, even moreso if you have someone with the -2 Ld relic somewhere nearby. I don't think they guys are winning a war of attrittion, but with high initative, Hit and Run and gear that does most damage on the Charge, they aren't likely to find themselves in that kind of fight.

True, but if we are talking about 20 Necron Warriors, and you kill 3, you are still looking at 17 return attacks. That's probably 8-9 hits and about 5 wounds. You are probably losing most of your squad and potentially losing or tying combat - bad result.

Lesson: don't give your Harlequins CCWs!

Ok so the -2 to Ld relic sounds like a good idea to have.

But their Melee doesn't sound reliable. Probably will have to take a lot of prep to get them ready for any kind of combat. With characters, abilities and gear they get better, but that also costs a lot of points.

Asmodas wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:
Bear in mind that even +3 Casualties against Crons gives them a decent chance to Fall Back and be swept by your High-Initiative Troupe, even moreso if you have someone with the -2 Ld relic somewhere nearby. I don't think they guys are winning a war of attrittion, but with high initative, Hit and Run and gear that does most damage on the Charge, they aren't likely to find themselves in that kind of fight.

True, but if we are talking about 20 Necron Warriors, and you kill 3, you are still looking at 17 return attacks. That's probably 8-9 hits and about 5 wounds. You are probably losing most of your squad and potentially losing or tying combat - bad result.

Lesson: don't give your Harlequins CCWs!

Paradigm wrote:Bear in mind that even +3 Casualties against Crons gives them a decent chance to Fall Back and be swept by your High-Initiative Troupe, even moreso if you have someone with the -2 Ld relic somewhere nearby. I don't think they guys are winning a war of attrittion, but with high initative, Hit and Run and gear that does most damage on the Charge, they aren't likely to find themselves in that kind of fight.

Here is one of the big issues and one of the things I'd like to discuss:
- You need to kill enough to avoid huge casualties when the opponent retaliates.
- You can't rout them in the first turn otherwise you end up being stuck in the open ready to be rapid fired by nearby squads
How do you best avoid the first two problems and beat the opponent's squad in combat by the end of THIER turn, thus allowing you free to hit and run out of combat?

That's a tough question to theoryhammer, as the answer will depend greatly on what kind of unit you're facing. I agree that it is a real concern, though. For now, I think we should focus on the first question, as that is solvable. The second question is harder to figure out. Against 20 fearless gaunts, it's not really a problem. Against a 5 man tac squad, it could be really difficult to NOT kill them!

I think optimally you'd probably really only want like 20 to 25 points of upgrades really.