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I personally will be having 6 per transport but the 12 on foot were highly effective as they could get buffs from turn one inwards by psykers

I'm thinking, and this could be complicatd but typically Harlequin, that if you give everyone haywire grenades who can have them and have a few haywire cannons and the odd fusion pistol (not many) then you can take out the enemy armour piecemeal. If your starweavers are criss crossing around th board, grenadine and shooting a tank then assaulting something else, it would be complicated but effective. Also the enemy has to worry about each and every one of your units as an anti armour threat.

As long as you put haywire or a caress in every unit, you are covered for AT in a limited capacity

My idea so far is to have utilize the Masque detachment from the Harlequins and a CAD of Dark Eldar to include one nasty Grotesque bomb with a -4 leadership bubble from Mask of Secrets and Armor of Misery. Here's my current list (local meta doesn't run fliers very often).

Troupe w/ Kiss and Starweaver
Troupe w/ Kiss and Starweaver
Troupe w/ Embrace and Starweaver

Shadowseer, ML 2, Mask of Secrets

Starweaver x2

Voidweaver x2

Succubus w/ Armor of Misery, Archite Glaive, Webway Portal

Kabalite Warrior x5 w/ Venom
Kabalite Warrior x5 w/ Venom

Blasterborn (these go in the empty Starweavers)
Blasterborn (these go in the empty Starweavers)
Grotesque x5

Ravager w/ Lances
Ravager w/ Lances

Succubus and Shadowseer Deep Strike with the Grotesques for a -4 leadership bubble in the back field. Blasterborn and Ravagers will make sure that I have no problems with vehicles.

My only fear with Harlequins is surviving Overwatch. We need to find a way to Pin units on a regular basis.

Swap Dark Eldar CAD for RSR. Sure you have to fit in a fast attack, but you're much safer for it. Ravagers kinda suck, unfortunately so do Blasterborn due to being far to expensive for how unreliable Blasters are.

Take Scourges instead of Ravagers, Harlequins lack reliable AT which Haywire Scourges can give. 2 units should suffice and even leave points over. It is perfectly acceptable to use Starweavers empty, they are not very durable, so your first though to stick 4 expensive T3 guys in there is arguably not a good one.

Instead, swap them out for Razorwings. Harlequins struggle with hordes, as you've already stated, Overwatch will rip them apart. Now, wouldn't that horde of 30 Shoota Boyz look much more manageable after you threw 4 Str 6 Large Blasts into them? Thought so. They don't even cost much more then Blasterborn, i think the points saved on Ravagers balances it out.

Just something to think about.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Swap Dark Eldar CAD for RSR. Sure you have to fit in a fast attack, but you're much safer for it. Ravagers kinda suck, unfortunately so do Blasterborn due to being far to expensive for how unreliable Blasters are.

Take Scourges instead of Ravagers, Harlequins lack reliable AT which Haywire Scourges can give. 2 units should suffice and even leave points over. It is perfectly acceptable to use Starweavers empty, they are not very durable, so your first though to stick 4 expensive T3 guys in there is arguably not a good one.

Instead, swap them out for Razorwings. Harlequins struggle with hordes, as you've already stated, Overwatch will rip them apart. Now, wouldn't that horde of 30 Shoota Boyz look much more manageable after you threw 4 Str 6 Large Blasts into them? Thought so. They don't even cost much more then Blasterborn, i think the points saved on Ravagers balances it out.

Just something to think about.

^^This. Agree with just about every point here. Razorwings >>>> Ravagers and Haywire Scourges >>>> Blasterborn. I like the Starweavers, as they are basically Veonms with more target options, and I already like venoms. As you don't need the Starweavers for the blasterborn, dropping one DT Starweaver will get you another unit of Wyches/Warriors in a Starweaver. Wouldn't normally bring up wyches, but as the Harlies will be taking all the heat a unit of wyches may actually get close enough to wreck face/haywire something.

I can't stress enough how well Razorwings and scourges cover the Harlies deficiencies. Harlies/DE really are bread/butter.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Swap Dark Eldar CAD for RSR. Sure you have to fit in a fast attack, but you're much safer for it. Ravagers kinda suck, unfortunately so do Blasterborn due to being far to expensive for how unreliable Blasters are.

Take Scourges instead of Ravagers, Harlequins lack reliable AT which Haywire Scourges can give. 2 units should suffice and even leave points over. It is perfectly acceptable to use Starweavers empty, they are not very durable, so your first though to stick 4 expensive T3 guys in there is arguably not a good one.

Instead, swap them out for Razorwings. Harlequins struggle with hordes, as you've already stated, Overwatch will rip them apart. Now, wouldn't that horde of 30 Shoota Boyz look much more manageable after you threw 4 Str 6 Large Blasts into them? Thought so. They don't even cost much more then Blasterborn, i think the points saved on Ravagers balances it out.

Just something to think about.

I felt the same way too after a few games with Ravagers, but then you have games like the one I just had where my Razorwing didn't come in until turn 4.... Pretty devastating to your overall game plan when your anti tank is off the board. However, you do bring up good points with the missiles, and they only cost 5 points more. I'll see what I can do.

I'm finding I start all my lists that have DE with 2x scourge, 2x reavers and 2x razorwings. Thankfully we get a detachment with 6 fast attack slots. Then add bare bones hq/troops, 10 point in a venom, and 2 gunboats of warriors.

I'm curious if that leaves enough left for harliquins.

DirtyDeeds wrote:

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Swap Dark Eldar CAD for RSR. Sure you have to fit in a fast attack, but you're much safer for it. Ravagers kinda suck, unfortunately so do Blasterborn due to being far to expensive for how unreliable Blasters are.

Take Scourges instead of Ravagers, Harlequins lack reliable AT which Haywire Scourges can give. 2 units should suffice and even leave points over. It is perfectly acceptable to use Starweavers empty, they are not very durable, so your first though to stick 4 expensive T3 guys in there is arguably not a good one.

Instead, swap them out for Razorwings. Harlequins struggle with hordes, as you've already stated, Overwatch will rip them apart. Now, wouldn't that horde of 30 Shoota Boyz look much more manageable after you threw 4 Str 6 Large Blasts into them? Thought so. They don't even cost much more then Blasterborn, i think the points saved on Ravagers balances it out.

Just something to think about.

I felt the same way too after a few games with Ravagers, but then you have games like the one I just had where my Razorwing didn't come in until turn 4.... Pretty devastating to your overall game plan when your anti tank is off the board. However, you do bring up good points with the missiles, and they only cost 5 points more. I'll see what I can do.

Especially when you're running a large number of units in reserve/DS as you would supporting a main Harlie army, you have to have some sort of reserve manipulation handy. A comms relay and/or rolling on strategic for reserve manipulation is a must when you're putting 3+ units in reserve, especially when those units are filling vital rolls. TBH, I've been giving a lot of thought to a Imperial bunker w/comms for this exact reason. AV14 sitting in a corner behind BOLS terrain w/ a warrior squad inside to man comms allows you to always go second and use old school null deploy shenanigans, which helps mitigate some of the Harlies glass-cannon-syndrome.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
I'm finding I start all my lists that have DE with 2x scourge, 2x reavers and 2x razorwings. Thankfully we get a detachment with 6 fast attack slots. Then add bare bones hq/troops, 10 point in a venom, and 2 gunboats of warriors.

I'm curious if that leaves enough left for harliquins.

Depends on the nuts and bolts of your lay out. A masque detachment runs in the 8-900 range depending on layout. 3 x 5 man Harlies w/kisses in Starweavers + Voidweaver (lance upgrade)= 635. That's the absolute bare minimum (I consider kisses minimum) Harlie detachment. Add in Elites as desired, w/ DJ's and Shadowseers starting out at 6 Haywire grenades a piece, Solitarie 29 HW grenades. Hard to come up with a reason to not run 1-2 shadowseers, and the DJ's go well in a gun boat with warriors surprisingly so bonus there.

You really need to build around harlies with your DE, but the elements you listed are exactly what Harlies want from a DE codex. 2 x RW, 2 x HW Scourge are should be the core of any DE force that pairs with Harlies. The rest of what you take depends on which force you want to spend the bulk of your points on.

Can you actually have a harlequin allied detachment since they can't take an HQ? (Like an allied detachment that gets obsec). Or for that matter can harlies get obsec at all?

 luke1705 wrote:
Can you actually have a harlequin allied detachment since they can't take an HQ? (Like an allied detachment that gets obsec). Or for that matter can harlies get obsec at all?

No and no. They come as a detachment or in formations, and no HQ means no allied option. And none of the harlie options offer obsc.

People often get confused between taking allies and the allied detachment. Allies are the rules you follow to find out how different codex work together.

The allied detachment is a specific force org chart with specific requirements and bonuses.

Harlequins can be allies for ANY codex just like anyone else. They can't use the allied detachment though as they can't meet the requirements

That's a fairly important distinction though. If any event bans codex-specific detachments, that means that you are unable to take harlequins unless you use them as their entire army, which although possible, I feel is a tough sell. They gain so much when you ally them with Eldar/dark Eldar, and vice versa. Of course, by allowing them, you also allow pentyrant builds categorically, since leviathan is a codex specific detachment. Oh to be a TO

So, a Battle-Forged list can have a Combined Arms Detachment, and still take a Harlequin Formation as allies...?
This will still be a valid Battle forged list?

If the Harlequins Formation was used as the main force, they could add on Alllied Detachments and other Formations (even other Harlequin ones), and still be Battle Forged?

But, since the Harlequins have no HQ choices, they cannot be used as an Allied detachment?

Just making sure, as the wording is the usual GW standard.

Kind of OT, but I just thought I'd pipe in here and say how amazing the new Shadowseer kit is. It's single pose (aside from a weapon swap), but it is incredibly intuitive to build, and cleverly designed. It looks amazing once put together, really putting the old sculpt to shame. GW hit it out of the park with this one.

I was also able to use the extra neuro disruptor for a converted Troupe Master. The Shadowseer carries her pistol in her right hand, which is different from all the other Harlequins and makes a conversion a little tricky. I realized, though, that the Harlie from the Starweaver carries its Glaive in its left hand, though, so I made a left-handed Troupe Master carrying a glaive (which I'll run as a power sword). It's nice to get some use out of that beautiful weapon. I'll post pics once it's painted up.

 Skinnereal wrote:
So, a Battle-Forged list can have a Combined Arms Detachment, and still take a Harlequin Formation as allies...?
This will still be a valid Battle forged list?

If the Harlequins Formation was used as the main force, they could add on Alllied Detachments and other Formations (even other Harlequin ones), and still be Battle Forged?

But, since the Harlequins have no HQ choices, they cannot be used as an Allied detachment?

Just making sure, as the wording is the usual GW standard.

Yes to all.

A battle forged list can have any number of detachments so long as you meet the requirements.

What do you guys think about converting harliquins out of wyches? I think I can make some decent death jesters out of unused shuriken cannons bits and dark eldar warriors with heavy weapons. Then I was thinking I could be cheap on the wallet and use my spare spare 40 wyches for all the harliquin core I would ever need.

-Matt

 Massaen wrote:

 Skinnereal wrote:
Stuff...

Yes to all.

A battle forged list can have any number of detachments so long as you meet the requirements.

Ta. Good to know.

It's time to make a table of what models can go into each Harlie formation.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
What do you guys think about converting harliquins out of wyches? I think I can make some decent death jesters out of unused shuriken cannons bits and dark eldar warriors with heavy weapons. Then I was thinking I could be cheap on the wallet and use my spare spare 40 wyches for all the harliquin core I would ever need.

-Matt

If you get one of each of the new kits, you should have all you need to make some nice conversions using whatever you've got. What you really need are the heads from the kit, and the Skyweaver jetbike kit has a couple great skull heads that would make excellent Death Jester faces. The Troupe box also contains many more heads than you actually need, and as has been mentioned a couple times the Starweaver kit includes extra Harlequin minis and bits that can be used for even more conversions. I am having a great time mixing and matching all the different kits right now. I've built about 20 minis without reusing a single mask.

i plan on getting one kit, to go along with my wyches box, my witch elves box and the rest of my bits. I think with some artistic license you could make sooooo many harle's with just one box. in fact i will be makin enough to fill out the 3 troupe requirements. And at a push you could take them as wyches if you were running pure DE imo, but then my force is harle themed.

But i love the fact they left ample masks, combined with the witch elves kit i have soo many masked heads, not to mention the witch elves with long hair i imagine are perrrrfect for the spare masks, can some one explain how they fit? please say they are like wrack masks? aka easy peeesie!

 Asmodas wrote:
Kind of OT, but I just thought I'd pipe in here and say how amazing the new Shadowseer kit is. It's single pose (aside from a weapon swap), but it is incredibly intuitive to build, and cleverly designed. It looks amazing once put together, really putting the old sculpt to shame. GW hit it out of the park with this one.

I was also able to use the extra neuro disruptor for a converted Troupe Master. The Shadowseer carries her pistol in her right hand, which is different from all the other Harlequins and makes a conversion a little tricky. I realized, though, that the Harlie from the Starweaver carries its Glaive in its left hand, though, so I made a left-handed Troupe Master carrying a glaive (which I'll run as a power sword). It's nice to get some use out of that beautiful weapon. I'll post pics once it's painted up.

I am hoping to use one of the female torsos with the weaver kit to make a Lady Shadow Seer. Without seeing the sprue in my hands I cant tell if the swap will be difficult.

Looks like I can swing it by trimming it right above the belt though concerned if I will lose the hooded trappings.

apologize for not being tactical related.

Any thoughts on how to best equip the Skyweavers?

My thoughts are that the Glaive and Shuriken cannon combo works if you want to be in assault. The haywire cannon can used for Anti-armor and can use the star bolos (cheaper option) as it should be sitting back and firing templates. Or, maybe just use two haywire cannons with 1 glaive for a multipurpose unit?

The plan is for the rest of the army to have haywire grenades where possible and for the Void Weaver to use the Prismatic cannon.

Vashones wrote:
Any thoughts on how to best equip the Skyweavers?

My thoughts are that the Glaive and Shuriken cannon combo works if you want to be in assault. The haywire cannon can used for Anti-armor and can use the star bolos (cheaper option) as it should be sitting back and firing templates. Or, maybe just use two haywire cannons with 1 glaive for a multipurpose unit?

The plan is for the rest of the army to have haywire grenades where possible and for the Void Weaver to use the Prismatic cannon.

On the shelf, looking pretty No secret, I'm not a fan of em.

That said, if you are a fan and you're going to take them, I think haywire/bolas are the way to go IMO. TBH, your troupers are great in hth (and also apparently remembered their grenades) they don't really need the help in CC. What they do need, is to have the transports/high AV tanks dead so they can crack the nuggety-center once there. As an added bonus if there's some super nasty 2+ star running around and you deny Invis (of course it has invis) you can throw bolas to soften them up for the assault, while also tanking OW for your troupers. Glaives would have been great as a straight up trade, but a 20% increase on an already slightly over costed unit is just to much.

Ok so the more I read through this codex the more I think, "the shadow seer has some amazing versatility". If there was a bound way to field 2/3 of him (without 500 or more points of extra stuff) I would be all up in that business so fast.

What do you guys think? If you were building a battle forged list around 3 ML2 Shadowseers, how would you take advantage of them? I feel like it would probably have to be Eldar, but to what end? I feel like a wraithknight or two would be good, but I'm not familiar enough with Eldar to know how to put a list with good synergy together

The only way to run 3 independent shadow seers are the masque or the revenge formation. Either way it's a big investment.

You could run a couple of the cast of players formations along with the heroes but I suspect you want them independent...

Yeah also trying to stick to two source format. I'm aware that it's a big investment. Just wondering what kind of psychic synergies you guys think would work especially well (again, likely with Eldar)

 Dash2021 wrote:

Vashones wrote:
Any thoughts on how to best equip the Skyweavers?

My thoughts are that the Glaive and Shuriken cannon combo works if you want to be in assault. The haywire cannon can used for Anti-armor and can use the star bolos (cheaper option) as it should be sitting back and firing templates. Or, maybe just use two haywire cannons with 1 glaive for a multipurpose unit?

The plan is for the rest of the army to have haywire grenades where possible and for the Void Weaver to use the Prismatic cannon.

On the shelf, looking pretty No secret, I'm not a fan of em.

That said, if you are a fan and you're going to take them, I think haywire/bolas are the way to go IMO. TBH, your troupers are great in hth (and also apparently remembered their grenades) they don't really need the help in CC. What they do need, is to have the transports/high AV tanks dead so they can crack the nuggety-center once there. As an added bonus if there's some super nasty 2+ star running around and you deny Invis (of course it has invis) you can throw bolas to soften them up for the assault, while also tanking OW for your troupers. Glaives would have been great as a straight up trade, but a 20% increase on an already slightly over costed unit is just to much.

Yes, every time I build a list I find myself wondering what to do with them, which is a sure sign they are not particularly good. The only reason I would consider them is because they do look pretty and they are required for the full formation. My guess is they get off one volley of haywire before jinking and/or dying. Thanks Dash for your contributions to this thread BTW!

They would get 2 shots off, the one time 4++ instead of jink. Played right, they should have earned their points back by then. And if you do jink, turbo boost next turn somewhere safe, then sweep back in the next turn. If there isn't a lot of fire, they do have a stock 5+ invuln.

The main weakness I've noticed is cheap volume of fire. They should actually do really well in the current MSU meta!

Quick query about the Voidweaver, and the fire arc of the front shuriken cannon. Just Miniwargaming, in their Harlequin review, brought up a point that by flying backwards you can use the turret mounted haywire/ prismatic + make the most of the fairly limited fire arc of the aft mounted weapon.

So, just wondering what the actual firing arc of the front shuriken cannon was, and as such the validity of flying backwards.

 Jangus wrote:
Quick query about the Voidweaver, and the fire arc of the front shuriken cannon. Just Miniwargaming, in their Harlequin review, brought up a point that by flying backwards you can use the turret mounted haywire/ prismatic + make the most of the fairly limited fire arc of the aft mounted weapon.

So, just wondering what the actual firing arc of the front shuriken cannon was, and as such the validity of flying backwards.

YMDC discussion on the Voidweaver's firing arc.