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Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
kind of fast moving, impossible to shoot, melee destructiveness

The first one I can agree with, but can you explain those last two?

Did you mean easily shootable and mediocre-to-poor melee? I can't think of any other way to describe Harlequins.

 Swastakowey wrote:

 lambsandlions wrote:
I was as shocked as you where when I found out they didn't have it. I felt like that was the last nail in the coffin. Oh the bright side, I love the kits, those masks that they come with sure are fun to put on other models.

They also have heaps of heads to add on onto other vehicle pilots as well.

They arent totally bad, but in any competitive environment they are certainly not worth their 50+ points cost.

between these and the weaver dual kits I have waited to put all my troupes together. With all the torso, head, mask and weapon choices just about every harly will be unique.

I have a long weekend after work Wednesday, plus I will finally get my copy of the dex so I will be busy assembling the masque!



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dash2021 wrote:
Marines, probably the most prevalent bike force atm, have grenades- b/c marines.

DE Reavers don't get grenades, because apparently that technology is coveted in the Dark City being as no one but characters have access........But reavers get rending HoW attacks, and Caltrops on them get D6 S6 Rending HoW (at I10). So grenades become less of an issue.

Seer Council didn't, but it's seer council so first/last didn't matter you weren't going to lose anyone anyway.

Spawn are beasts.

Beast packs are.....beasts.

Shining Spears don't. See below.

The rest don't, but they don't need it either. Most bike units are shooting platforms, the ones above are the exception. All of them have some sort of durability boost (T5, Armor 3, Skilled rider etc.) Shining Spears and skyweavers have the same problem: they're incredibly expensive, have moderate durability, and perform a high risk roll. CC is high risk, it requires exposing yourself to a lot of risk. Every good CC unit in the game has some way of mitigating this, either through cheap bodies (Reavers) or high durability (Council, Marines). Just hitting hard in CC isn't enough, as most of us follow the maxim "Shoot the choppy things, chop the shooty things". And there's the problem: the one thing these two CC units have going for them (hard hitting in CC) is completely nullified by an opponent who knows how to keep their toes in cover.

Skyweaver would make a decent shooting platform, except the freakin haywire is blast. I'm sure one day GW will realize that blast weapons on skimmers don't work, but they obviously didn't put that together before the Harlie Codex was released. If that thing had been Heavy 2, I'd have been all over it like a fat kid on cake. But an AV10 gun platform that doesn't jink = KP. It's actually kind of insulting that they acknowledge this via mirage launchers, but did it anyway.

Good points. It seems a lot of cc units don't have grenades. When I played necrons I was annoyed that praetorians and lychguard did not get them. Being new to nids last year when I started a nid army I was wondering why hormos did not get them.

A buddy wanted to house rule shining spears had grenades, I voted no way that any unit would love to scoot across the board, shoot and charge into cover with ease.

I used the necron and nid examples and he eventually agreed. Maybe gaunts are a bad example but surely there are others.

without trying to steer this off course could it be a form of balance? They are pricey and in addition seem to be getting good reviews in what battle reports I have seen or read about here.

do they really need them?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Rereading some recent posts apparently so, lol.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
kind of fast moving, impossible to shoot, melee destructiveness

The first one I can agree with, but can you explain those last two?

Did you mean easily shootable and mediocre-to-poor melee? I can't think of any other way to describe Harlequins.

With a shadowseer using veil of tears, they literally cannot be shot beyond 24" extreme long range armies are at a serious disadvantage. Most of the assault based armies rely on superior toughness and good armor saves to win the day, as well as a high ap value to carry their destructive capability. Harlequin troupes have no save to negate, and will be hitting before anything that isn't a daemon of slaanesh/ some dark eldar units. Our damage is dealt first, and (with the caress, kiss, or embrace) can devastate most anything on the charge. We can even drop an imperial knight before he swings with a 10 man unit with the caress. That kind of damage per model is rare. And the fact that that unit has as much chance of surviving the subsequent explosion as chain fist terminators can't really be ignored.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:

With a shadowseer using veil of tears, they literally cannot be shot beyond 24"

By what means are you guaranteeing having that power active when you get shot?

I posted this in the DE thread and wanted to know what you guys thought.

I have been looking at the phantasmancy spells and one that really popped out at me is dance of shadows, which gives a friendly unit withing 18" stealth and shroud. Now I know you can not always guarantee it but does that spell increase the viability of some DE units. I am looking at khymera in particular, because they are fast and can move through cover, giving them stealth and shroud increases their survivability by a ton and they can make good screens to eat overwatch for harlequins. If you are running 3 lvl2 spirit seers the odds of getting dance of shadows is pretty good. With reavers you can cast dance of shadows on t1, turbo boost to assault range, jink for a 2+ cover save and then assault t2. There are a lot of units in our codex that beg the question "how am I going to cross the board" and I feel shadowseers may be the answer to a lot of them. Even a shadowseer in a beast pack might be good, sure it will slow down the unit a little but if you have 12 large bases you can easily chain them together so the front base is moving 12" a turn and getting into assaults where the shadowseer can slingshot in.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:

With a shadowseer using veil of tears, they literally cannot be shot beyond 24"

By what means are you guaranteeing having that power active when you get shot?

It's a WC 1 primaris power that targets the shadowseer and his unit. Aside from top of first turn going second, it shouldn't be at all difficult to keep up.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:

With a shadowseer using veil of tears, they literally cannot be shot beyond 24"

By what means are you guaranteeing having that power active when you get shot?

there are no guarantees, this is a dice game. However, is it really that difficult to get a warp charge one primaris power off? How many armies and death stars are considered viable due to prescience? How could this ability be any harder to utilize?

 lambsandlions wrote:
I posted this in the DE thread and wanted to know what you guys thought.

I have been looking at the phantasmancy spells and one that really popped out at me is dance of shadows, which gives a friendly unit withing 18" stealth and shroud. Now I know you can not always guarantee it but does that spell increase the viability of some DE units. I am looking at khymera in particular, because they are fast and can move through cover, giving them stealth and shroud increases their survivability by a ton and they can make good screens to eat overwatch for harlequins. If you are running 3 lvl2 spirit seers the odds of getting dance of shadows is pretty good. With reavers you can cast dance of shadows on t1, turbo boost to assault range, jink for a 2+ cover save and then assault t2. There are a lot of units in our codex that beg the question "how am I going to cross the board" and I feel shadowseers may be the answer to a lot of them. Even a shadowseer in a beast pack might be good, sure it will slow down the unit a little but if you have 12 large bases you can easily chain them together so the front base is moving 12" a turn and getting into assaults where the shadowseer can slingshot in.

To the bolded: this sounds familiar.

Shadowseers are far and away the stars of the codex. I'm almost glad the formations/detachment are so restrictive, or you'd see 2 troupes 6 shadowseers in every CWE/DE list. They're like mini farseers you can spam, and both codexes have units that go from good to amazing with just a small bump in power. WG, reavers, wyches (actually from terrible to good here), etc.

As to the beast pack: shadowseer spam + beastpack spam is definitely a decent option. Even w/out stealth/shrouded, just Veil to save you a turn of shooting and HnR is plenty to make it viable. Shadows is just bonus when you get it. I used to run Seer Council with baron who was faster than a ignore terrain + Fleet run shadowseer but had to keep up with small based models and it was never much of an issue.

Speaking of Seer Council losing HnR since baron..........

I was just thinking, allied in farseer with divination, harlequin squad filled with Harlequin's caress, should be able to take on centurionstar. If they are invisible, I need 6's to hit, I get to reroll all failed misses so 25 attacks on the charge, equals 4 hits, rerolls give another ~3. That is 7 automatic wounds at ap2. If you chalenge out Draigo, you could actually deal a significant amount of damage with a 120 point unit to one of the hardest to kill death stars in the game. Considering how expensive that star is(especially with Draigo, Tigurius, and the ml3 librarian in there) that exchange should be well worth it!

Edit for over excitement. I mathed wrong, would be about 6 hits.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
[ However, is it really that difficult to get a warp charge one primaris power off?

Yes. Even activating it once will be nothing to count on.

But you're factoring in it being activated for every unit in your army, which is just implausible.

Why every unit even though you never said that? If it's not active on every unit, then it doesn't matter that it's active on some. The ones uncovered are dead.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
[ However, is it really that difficult to get a warp charge one primaris power off?

Yes. Even activating it once will be nothing to count on.

But you're factoring in it being activated for every unit in your army, which is just implausible.

Why every unit even though you never said that? If it's not active on every unit, then it doesn't matter that it's active on some. The ones uncovered are dead.

You mean all 3 units in your army that can benefit? With only 6 slots for ML2 psychers?

In my army, any of them that aren't having it activated will be in a transport with a 4+ invuln save, behind cover, waiting to rush out. My list includes 4 shadowseer, 3 are mastery level two. That's between 8 and 13 warp charges. If I NEED it to go off, I can. And if by some chance it still doesn't, I can run in the shooting phase to limit your shots against them anyway.

Also, this army is completely ignorant of terrain, hiding behind ruins and whatnot isntngoing to inhibit me in the slightest. My troupers can run and assault after turn two, and nothing in the game besides the occasional strength D weapon, and one assassin can ignore my saves. That means I can bank on 1/3 of my wounds are going to be saved. It may not seem like much, but I don't ever have to worry about the ap of my opponents weapons that are targeting my infantry, anything above las guns is wasting points trying to punch through armor I don't have, and anything above str 5 is wasting strength on them due to it all wounding on2+.

This army is very contrary to the meta, and I feel that once some people with serious skill throw it into a major tournament their opponents will have a hard time dealing with them.
My$.02

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
In my army, any of them that aren't having it activated will be in a transport with a 4+ invuln save, behind cover, waiting to rush out. My list includes 4 shadowseer, 3 are mastery level two. That's between 8 and 13 warp charges. If I NEED it to go off, I can. And if by some chance it still doesn't, I can run in the shooting phase to limit your shots against them anyway.

Also, this army is completely ignorant of terrain, hiding behind ruins and whatnot isntngoing to inhibit me in the slightest. My troupers can run and assault after turn two, and nothing in the game besides the occasional strength D weapon, and one assassin can ignore my saves. That means I can bank on 1/3 of my wounds are going to be saved. It may not seem like much, but I don't ever have to worry about the ap of my opponents weapons that are targeting my infantry, anything above las guns is wasting points trying to punch through armor I don't have, and anything above str 5 is wasting strength on them due to it all wounding on2+.

This army is very contrary to the meta, and I feel that once some people with serious skill throw it into a major tournament their opponents will have a hard time dealing with them.
My$.02

Speaking of ignoring terrain, don't forget to launch your assault with the lead in cover. No reason to not get that 4+ save from overwatch, or 2+ if you get Shadows

Ok - so help me think my way out of the predicament I'm in. I know that the leadership bomb build is super situational, expensive, random, and bad. I know. I get it. I still want to see how far I can go with it.

The first hurdle I'm facing is of course which Harli formation to run with - and just to keep things manageable I think it has to be the Players. Anything else is just way too many points in a list that is already ridiculously concentrated. I'd be open to another formation, but I'm just not sure it's workable.

Still, with that decided we start to see the shape of my fear bomb. A 5 man unit of harlies, with shadowseer, death jester, archon, and farseer. Maybe two farseers if I really want to go crazy. Tack on a raider, and you're looking at more than five or six hundred points with both the mask on the ss and armor and wwp on the archon, and you haven't even bought weapons for your troupe. It's a lot of points. And it's pretty fragile. But I think it has potential. Look at what those 600 points buy you. Pinpoint deepstrike with two shrieks (or three if you shoot for 2 farseers), at a -4 or -5 leadership modifier. On average, that's two dead riptides. Or hive tyrants. Or a squad of centurions, or broadsides, or terminators, or whatever. You get the idea. God help them if you role dominate. But terrify will also do the trick as well. And there's the death jester's shenanigans. In short, this unit drops and aims to destroy/neuter 2-4 units.

There are several challenges of course- which I hope to resolve with the rest of the list. The first is simply those durn metal bawkses. A mechanized list really rains on this concept's parade. The second challenge is a reserve or mobile list that's able to counter-strike your rather fragile deathstar - or table you before it comes in. The third challenge is the traditional bane of deathstar lists - either MSU or Tarpits.

I have some ideas of my own on how to best put things together, but I was curious if anyone else has worked out a list. I'm currently thinking a Covens Grotesquerie formation to get the leadership modifier to -5, and some warp spiders to potentially help with de-mechanizing or force more pinning checks. If you add those ingredients in as well, (two 5 man spider squads and a Haemonculous with two units of grots in raiders) you've only spent about 1100-1200 points. I know that relying on morale tricks seems unreliable, but when they're trying to roll under a 3 or 4 it's pretty darn reliable. Or at least it seems that way to me. It's a pity that snipers don't cause pinning checks anymore.

That's a valid point shadows! I used it with the solitaire in the way of heroes formation. Brutal because its just a free upgrade

Belac Ynnead wrote:
Ok - so help me think my way out of the predicament I'm in. I know that the leadership bomb build is super situational, expensive, random, and bad. I know. I get it. I still want to see how far I can go with it.

The first hurdle I'm facing is of course which Harli formation to run with - and just to keep things manageable I think it has to be the Players. Anything else is just way too many points in a list that is already ridiculously concentrated. I'd be open to another formation, but I'm just not sure it's workable.

Still, with that decided we start to see the shape of my fear bomb. A 5 man unit of harlies, with shadowseer, death jester, archon, and farseer. Maybe two farseers if I really want to go crazy. Tack on a raider, and you're looking at more than five or six hundred points with both the mask on the ss and armor and wwp on the archon, and you haven't even bought weapons for your troupe. It's a lot of points. And it's pretty fragile. But I think it has potential. Look at what those 600 points buy you. Pinpoint deepstrike with two shrieks (or three if you shoot for 2 farseers), at a -4 or -5 leadership modifier. On average, that's two dead riptides. Or hive tyrants. Or a squad of centurions, or broadsides, or terminators, or whatever. You get the idea. God help them if you role dominate. But terrify will also do the trick as well. And there's the death jester's shenanigans. In short, this unit drops and aims to destroy/neuter 2-4 units.

There are several challenges of course- which I hope to resolve with the rest of the list. The first is simply those durn metal bawkses. A mechanized list really rains on this concept's parade. The second challenge is a reserve or mobile list that's able to counter-strike your rather fragile deathstar - or table you before it comes in. The third challenge is the traditional bane of deathstar lists - either MSU or Tarpits.

I have some ideas of my own on how to best put things together, but I was curious if anyone else has worked out a list. I'm currently thinking a Covens Grotesquerie formation to get the leadership modifier to -5, and some warp spiders to potentially help with de-mechanizing or force more pinning checks. If you add those ingredients in as well, (two 5 man spider squads and a Haemonculous with two units of grots in raiders) you've only spent about 1100-1200 points. I know that relying on morale tricks seems unreliable, but when they're trying to roll under a 3 or 4 it's pretty darn reliable. Or at least it seems that way to me. It's a pity that snipers don't cause pinning checks anymore.

First, is # of sources an issue? Cause atm you're talking about 3-4, and most settings that isn't allowed.

Second, the conservative interpretation of the psycher rules says you can't cast more than one of the same power from a unit, no matter how many psychers have it. So even if you get 3 Psychic Shrieks, as long as the psychers are in the same squad you can only cast it once. I think it's a pretty ignorant way to interpret the rule from a RAI standpoint, but that's neither here nor there.

Third, the fear bomb is pretty gimicky tbh. For all the reasons you listed (APCs, MSU, etc.) it isn't something you should build a list around. If you have a unit that you're already DS'ng w/a Armor of misery, and want to add a Shadowseer - go for it. As is you'd have to also take shadowfield, since your unit is going to have to disembark to cast powers which means you need someone to tank for your paper warriors. So add on another 40pts to your total. Even then all your opponent needs to do is move around the tank, and you're picking up 20pt models from lasgun fire. Just not worth it.

If I was going to do something along these lines I'd just run a wraithbomb. Farseer, 5 Spirit seers, shadowseer or 2. Unit is Obsec, has AP2 shooting, T6 majority, HnR. Spirit seers can get Horrify from RoBattle at -3 LD, for a total of -5LD after mask. Gate of infinity to keep from getting out-maneuvered and this thing is a monster on wheels.

 Dash2021 wrote:

Belac Ynnead wrote:
Ok - so help me think my way out of the predicament I'm in. I know that the leadership bomb build is super situational, expensive, random, and bad. I know. I get it. I still want to see how far I can go with it.

The first hurdle I'm facing is of course which Harli formation to run with - and just to keep things manageable I think it has to be the Players. Anything else is just way too many points in a list that is already ridiculously concentrated. I'd be open to another formation, but I'm just not sure it's workable.

Still, with that decided we start to see the shape of my fear bomb. A 5 man unit of harlies, with shadowseer, death jester, archon, and farseer. Maybe two farseers if I really want to go crazy. Tack on a raider, and you're looking at more than five or six hundred points with both the mask on the ss and armor and wwp on the archon, and you haven't even bought weapons for your troupe. It's a lot of points. And it's pretty fragile. But I think it has potential. Look at what those 600 points buy you. Pinpoint deepstrike with two shrieks (or three if you shoot for 2 farseers), at a -4 or -5 leadership modifier. On average, that's two dead riptides. Or hive tyrants. Or a squad of centurions, or broadsides, or terminators, or whatever. You get the idea. God help them if you role dominate. But terrify will also do the trick as well. And there's the death jester's shenanigans. In short, this unit drops and aims to destroy/neuter 2-4 units.

There are several challenges of course- which I hope to resolve with the rest of the list. The first is simply those durn metal bawkses. A mechanized list really rains on this concept's parade. The second challenge is a reserve or mobile list that's able to counter-strike your rather fragile deathstar - or table you before it comes in. The third challenge is the traditional bane of deathstar lists - either MSU or Tarpits.

I have some ideas of my own on how to best put things together, but I was curious if anyone else has worked out a list. I'm currently thinking a Covens Grotesquerie formation to get the leadership modifier to -5, and some warp spiders to potentially help with de-mechanizing or force more pinning checks. If you add those ingredients in as well, (two 5 man spider squads and a Haemonculous with two units of grots in raiders) you've only spent about 1100-1200 points. I know that relying on morale tricks seems unreliable, but when they're trying to roll under a 3 or 4 it's pretty darn reliable. Or at least it seems that way to me. It's a pity that snipers don't cause pinning checks anymore.

First, is # of sources an issue? Cause atm you're talking about 3-4, and most settings that isn't allowed.

Second, the conservative interpretation of the psycher rules says you can't cast more than one of the same power from a unit, no matter how many psychers have it. So even if you get 3 Psychic Shrieks, as long as the psychers are in the same squad you can only cast it once. I think it's a pretty ignorant way to interpret the rule from a RAI standpoint, but that's neither here nor there.

Third, the fear bomb is pretty gimicky tbh. For all the reasons you listed (APCs, MSU, etc.) it isn't something you should build a list around. If you have a unit that you're already DS'ng w/a Armor of misery, and want to add a Shadowseer - go for it. As is you'd have to also take shadowfield, since your unit is going to have to disembark to cast powers which means you need someone to tank for your paper warriors. So add on another 40pts to your total. Even then all your opponent needs to do is move around the tank, and you're picking up 20pt models from lasgun fire. Just not worth it.

If I was going to do something along these lines I'd just run a wraithbomb. Farseer, 5 Spirit seers, shadowseer or 2. Unit is Obsec, has AP2 shooting, T6 majority, HnR. Spirit seers can get Horrify from RoBattle at -3 LD, for a total of -5LD after mask. Gate of infinity to keep from getting out-maneuvered and this thing is a monster on wheels.

Interesting idea. I've been considering running Wraithblades alongside Cast of Players to give the Wraiths Crusader, which really helps them a lot as they are too slow for a melee unit otherwise. Attaching a Shadowseer and Spiritseer(s) for Shriek, Horrify, Hit and Run and Runes of Battle buffs could be interesting too.

 Asmodas wrote:

Interesting idea. I've been considering running Wraithblades alongside Cast of Players to give the Wraiths Crusader, which really helps them a lot as they are too slow for a melee unit otherwise. Attaching a Shadowseer and Spiritseer(s) for Shriek, Horrify, Hit and Run and Runes of Battle buffs could be interesting too.

I personally love wraithblades, they are a great "sticky" unit because they can take a charge and stay in combat. Quicken is another great Runes of Battle power (+3" run) that can really get them up the board if you don't go for Gate. I love the idea of a tough melee unit followed by a troupe backing them up and bailing them out when they get locked in combat. It can be tricky to position everything "just so," but that is what makes it an interesting challenge.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually, having said all that and re-reading your post, attaching a Shadowseer to a Wraithblade unit and giving it hit and run would allow them to bounce from combat to combat of course so they don't get locked. The only problem is you can't detatch a Shadowseer from Cast of Players, (I don't think), so that means a Masque detachment which is expensive points wise.

As mentioned earlier, the Shadowseer is going to be friends with a LOT of Eldar and DE units, its probably a good thing you can't take them separately as part of a bound army without the heavy tax of the formations.

Correct, the Shadowseer cannot detach.

The only formations that will allow a Shadowseer to join anything but a Troupe require 3 Troupes, among other things.

Vashones wrote:

 Asmodas wrote:

Interesting idea. I've been considering running Wraithblades alongside Cast of Players to give the Wraiths Crusader, which really helps them a lot as they are too slow for a melee unit otherwise. Attaching a Shadowseer and Spiritseer(s) for Shriek, Horrify, Hit and Run and Runes of Battle buffs could be interesting too.

I personally love wraithblades, they are a great "sticky" unit because they can take a charge and stay in combat. Quicken is another great Runes of Battle power (+3" run) that can really get them up the board if you don't go for Gate. I love the idea of a tough melee unit followed by a troupe backing them up and bailing them out when they get locked in combat. It can be tricky to position everything "just so," but that is what makes it an interesting challenge.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually, having said all that and re-reading your post, attaching a Shadowseer to a Wraithblade unit and giving it hit and run would allow them to bounce from combat to combat of course so they don't get locked. The only problem is you can't detatch a Shadowseer from Cast of Players, (I don't think), so that means a Masque detachment which is expensive points wise.

As mentioned earlier, the Shadowseer is going to be friends with a LOT of Eldar and DE units, its probably a good thing you can't take them separately as part of a bound army without the heavy tax of the formations.

Yeah, I know the Shadowseer can't detach. Those were kind of two separate ideas for buffing Wraithblades that got rolled into 1 post.

Vashones wrote:

 Asmodas wrote:

Interesting idea. I've been considering running Wraithblades alongside Cast of Players to give the Wraiths Crusader, which really helps them a lot as they are too slow for a melee unit otherwise. Attaching a Shadowseer and Spiritseer(s) for Shriek, Horrify, Hit and Run and Runes of Battle buffs could be interesting too.

I personally love wraithblades, they are a great "sticky" unit because they can take a charge and stay in combat. Quicken is another great Runes of Battle power (+3" run) that can really get them up the board if you don't go for Gate. I love the idea of a tough melee unit followed by a troupe backing them up and bailing them out when they get locked in combat. It can be tricky to position everything "just so," but that is what makes it an interesting challenge.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually, having said all that and re-reading your post, attaching a Shadowseer to a Wraithblade unit and giving it hit and run would allow them to bounce from combat to combat of course so they don't get locked. The only problem is you can't detatch a Shadowseer from Cast of Players, (I don't think), so that means a Masque detachment which is expensive points wise.

As mentioned earlier, the Shadowseer is going to be friends with a LOT of Eldar and DE units, its probably a good thing you can't take them separately as part of a bound army without the heavy tax of the formations.

True, but it'd not be as big a tax as you'd think. Sample Wraithguard list:

3 x 5 Troupes x kisses= 360
2 x Starweavers = 140
Voidweaver- 80
ML2 Shadow Seer w/mask = 100
Total = 680

Farseer- jetbike Spirt stone of anath- 130
Spirit Seer x 3- 210

Wraithguard x 9 - 288
WG WS- SL and holofields - 135

2x DAVU w/ WS (SL, holofields)- 400
Total = 1163

Army total=1843

3 WS's, the Wraith bomb and 2 Starweavers of Harlies. One Harlie unit is on foot which isn't ideal, but is manageable. Could go embark in the empty WS turn one and play free safety for CC threats to the WS line. Be clever with deployment and either reserve or hide the Harlies so they don't give up FB, and the rest of your list is pretty durable and can stand up to most anything. I like WG better than blades simply because of ID shooting. In a meta of knights and Flyrants, high S low AP shooting is a pretty hard counter. Against MSU they suffer some, but the rest of the list is pretty MSU itself, so balances that weakness out. And w/HnR on a T6 unit, you can use them as a multicharge tarpit at 0 loss of output.

About the "fear bomb" yes, it is far too gimmicky to rely on. However, if you already have a DE HQ with a WWP, why not just add a shadowseer with the mask? You can use the mask and armor and psychic shriek, just don't sink all your points into it.

 lambsandlions wrote:
About the "fear bomb" yes, it is far too gimmicky to rely on. However, if you already have a DE HQ with a WWP, why not just add a shadowseer with the mask? You can use the mask and armor and psychic shriek, just don't sink all your points into it.

Because of the limitations in the harlequin formations. I'd like nothing more than a simple 1 "hq" one troop formation style thing, but alas...alas...

 Dash2021 wrote:


First, is # of sources an issue? Cause atm you're talking about 3-4, and most settings that isn't allowed.

Second, the conservative interpretation of the psycher rules says you can't cast more than one of the same power from a unit, no matter how many psychers have it. So even if you get 3 Psychic Shrieks, as long as the psychers are in the same squad you can only cast it once. I think it's a pretty ignorant way to interpret the rule from a RAI standpoint, but that's neither here nor there.

Third, the fear bomb is pretty gimicky tbh. For all the reasons you listed (APCs, MSU, etc.) it isn't something you should build a list around. If you have a unit that you're already DS'ng w/a Armor of misery, and want to add a Shadowseer - go for it. As is you'd have to also take shadowfield, since your unit is going to have to disembark to cast powers which means you need someone to tank for your paper warriors. So add on another 40pts to your total. Even then all your opponent needs to do is move around the tank, and you're picking up 20pt models from lasgun fire. Just not worth it.

If I was going to do something along these lines I'd just run a wraithbomb. Farseer, 5 Spirit seers, shadowseer or 2. Unit is Obsec, has AP2 shooting, T6 majority, HnR. Spirit seers can get Horrify from RoBattle at -3 LD, for a total of -5LD after mask. Gate of infinity to keep from getting out-maneuvered and this thing is a monster on wheels.

I'm not really restricted on sources as I'm just trying to work this out for fun. And I agree with you on your reading of the RAI psyker rules. In my group we read that rule as restricting a model from recasting, not other models in the unit.

I really like your Wraithguard interpretation - it's just the rest of the requirements that are killing me. I absolutely agree that the wraithguards' durability makes for a much better deathstar. I just wish that I could run it and have the other 580 points of the harlequin detatchment to properly support them. At this point I should probably just go unbound and stop stressing about it, but hey - I think unbound is lazy.

 Dash2021 wrote:

Vashones wrote:

 Asmodas wrote:

Interesting idea. I've been considering running Wraithblades alongside Cast of Players to give the Wraiths Crusader, which really helps them a lot as they are too slow for a melee unit otherwise. Attaching a Shadowseer and Spiritseer(s) for Shriek, Horrify, Hit and Run and Runes of Battle buffs could be interesting too.

I personally love wraithblades, they are a great "sticky" unit because they can take a charge and stay in combat. Quicken is another great Runes of Battle power (+3" run) that can really get them up the board if you don't go for Gate. I love the idea of a tough melee unit followed by a troupe backing them up and bailing them out when they get locked in combat. It can be tricky to position everything "just so," but that is what makes it an interesting challenge.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually, having said all that and re-reading your post, attaching a Shadowseer to a Wraithblade unit and giving it hit and run would allow them to bounce from combat to combat of course so they don't get locked. The only problem is you can't detatch a Shadowseer from Cast of Players, (I don't think), so that means a Masque detachment which is expensive points wise.

As mentioned earlier, the Shadowseer is going to be friends with a LOT of Eldar and DE units, its probably a good thing you can't take them separately as part of a bound army without the heavy tax of the formations.

True, but it'd not be as big a tax as you'd think. Sample Wraithguard list:

3 x 5 Troupes x kisses= 360
2 x Starweavers = 140
Voidweaver- 80
ML2 Shadow Seer w/mask = 100
Total = 680

Farseer- jetbike Spirt stone of anath- 130
Spirit Seer x 3- 210

Wraithguard x 9 - 288
WG WS- SL and holofields - 135

2x DAVU w/ WS (SL, holofields)- 400
Total = 1163

Army total=1843

3 WS's, the Wraith bomb and 2 Starweavers of Harlies. One Harlie unit is on foot which isn't ideal, but is manageable. Could go embark in the empty WS turn one and play free safety for CC threats to the WS line. Be clever with deployment and either reserve or hide the Harlies so they don't give up FB, and the rest of your list is pretty durable and can stand up to most anything. I like WG better than blades simply because of ID shooting. In a meta of knights and Flyrants, high S low AP shooting is a pretty hard counter. Against MSU they suffer some, but the rest of the list is pretty MSU itself, so balances that weakness out. And w/HnR on a T6 unit, you can use them as a multicharge tarpit at 0 loss of output.

Nice list, seems to cover a lot of bases and its very clever to have an empty WS to stuff in the extra harlequins. I am going to add this as another list to try out, along with a modified Jet Seer list, a wraithblade list, a DE list with Razorwings and Scourges, and a pinning list with Nightspinners and Serpents.

Found a glitch for those wanting to run far seers with skyweavers, a unit has to be composed entirely of models with the mirage launchers to be able to activate them. That kinda limits who you may want to attach to them...

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Found a glitch for those wanting to run far seers with skyweavers, a unit has to be composed entirely of models with the mirage launchers to be able to activate them. That kinda limits who you may want to attach to them...

One more nail in the coffin for a unit that already was overpriced and under powered.

I'm using mine to cattle drive my opponents infantry to the edges. I have them equipped with the haywire cannons, and with a 36" threat range I'm hoping to utilize them for early game center of the board control. Strangely enough I use a symilar strategy to most MMA fighters when I play. Be the aggressor, take the center early to control opposing positioning, and force them to make a mistake by playing a style of list that they don't expect when they enter the competition.

I win more than I lose, but I don't have the time to try it out in big tournament environments. :/

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
I'm using mine to cattle drive my opponents infantry to the edges. I have them equipped with the haywire cannons, and with a 36" threat range I'm hoping to utilize them for early game center of the board control. Strangely enough I use a symilar strategy to most MMA fighters when I play. Be the aggressor, take the center early to control opposing positioning, and force them to make a mistake by playing a style of list that they don't expect when they enter the competition.

Why wouldn't people want your fragile, non-dangerous unit right where they can be easily killed?

 DarknessEternal wrote:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
I'm using mine to cattle drive my opponents infantry to the edges. I have them equipped with the haywire cannons, and with a 36" threat range I'm hoping to utilize them for early game center of the board control. Strangely enough I use a symilar strategy to most MMA fighters when I play. Be the aggressor, take the center early to control opposing positioning, and force them to make a mistake by playing a style of list that they don't expect when they enter the competition.

Why wouldn't people want your fragile, non-dangerous unit right where they can be easily killed?

Oddly enough, Skyweavers are generally no safer in cover than they are in the open. With a 4+ save, ability to jink and/or fire mirage launchers, and no wargear allowing them to auto-pass dangerous terrain checks or ability to improve on a 4+ ruin cover save, they are actually safer out in the open (where they at least don't have to take dangerous terrain checks). BLOS terrain is a different story, of course.

 Dash2021 wrote:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Found a glitch for those wanting to run far seers with skyweavers, a unit has to be composed entirely of models with the mirage launchers to be able to activate them. That kinda limits who you may want to attach to them...

One more nail in the coffin for a unit that already was overpriced and under powered.

Ugh, I'm getting the codex today, that is terrible news. The only way I can see them working is with a Farseer or two with a Shard of Anaris providing fearless, and even then that is not a very efficient use of points.

Oh well, the models look awesome and I have 6 already, so I'll use them for fun.