Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Vashones wrote:

 Dash2021 wrote:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Found a glitch for those wanting to run far seers with skyweavers, a unit has to be composed entirely of models with the mirage launchers to be able to activate them. That kinda limits who you may want to attach to them...

One more nail in the coffin for a unit that already was overpriced and under powered.

Ugh, I'm getting the codex today, that is terrible news. The only way I can see them working is with a Farseer or two with a Shard of Anaris providing fearless, and even then that is not a very efficient use of points.

Oh well, the models look awesome and I have 6 already, so I'll use them for fun.

Ouch... 6 of them... minimum 300 point investment there.

I was lucky to only buy 4...

I plan on getting another 4. My meta is rhino heavy and has a severe surplus of guardsmen and fire warriors. Str4 ap4 blast with haywire or super mobile shuriken cannons answer those questions easily! Also, I don't think they are as easy to kill as you say. They should spend most of my opponents turn out if sight and they don't guarantee lose their shooting capability if something fires an ap4 weapon their way. I think people are expecting every bike to be super hard to kill, and in this glass cannon army, it would be out of place.

I have found 3 to be a good number, but I face lots of necrons and eldar. Im the only player with squishy stuff. Also I dont think I said they are easy to kill... but they arent great at surviving anything that wants to kill them.

But even against guard, thats 50 points a model. Thats a bare bones Guardsmen unit. Any upgrades you add increase the cost more so.

Volume of attacks ruin these guys, so I end up using them to chase doen units who are similar (tomb blades, jetbikes etc) or go vehicle hunting.

I think spending 500 points minimum on 10 bikes before upgrades is really gonna make it tough. Your model count will be very, very small.

But you know your meta more than I do.

I usually run groups of wind riders for shuriken cannons, so for the same amount of cannon shots, I actually save 22 points on them. If I am using my corsairs, I actually save about 70 points. If my opponent is shooting me with blast masters, the skyweavers have a chance to survive, my other jetbikes leave the table. They are not as all around utilitarian as the wind riders, but they do fill certain niches that other jetbikes simply cannot.

Edit: I currently only have 4 bikes, I'm going to max out at 8.

I think, what makes the Windriders better is the fact you dont need to spend heaps of points for a squad of 3. Also if you wanted to, they can be supported by other jetbike characters.


At the very least, the models look great. I just think that 3 is an ok number, anything more and you are making it harder to play.

Capping out at 8 would be better.

I plan on using two units of two to hop around haywiring things and picking on little Maelstrom capping units.

Also just got the codex, why does the fluff page of the Starweaver talk about it having multiple Shuriken or Haywire weapons?

I got all excited that I could load it up with Haywire but when I got to it's entry there are no options for that.

 Eldarain wrote:
I plan on using two units of two to hop around haywiring things and picking on little Maelstrom capping units.

Also just got the codex, why does the fluff page of the Starweaver talk about it having multiple Shuriken or Haywire weapons?

I got all excited that I could load it up with Haywire but when I got to it's entry there are no options for that.

Maybe they got mixed up with the other vehicle?

Or the didnt want to change the fluff after changing the rules?

Imagine how good the transports would be if they could take haywire

Am I the only one out there that thinks that skyweavers in Faolchu's Blade may be worthwhile? a 4+ rerollable jink seems nice for something that is probably going to be eating alot of overwatch.

 Asmodas wrote:

Oddly enough, Skyweavers are generally no safer in cover than they are in the open. With a 4+ save, ability to jink and/or fire mirage launchers, and no wargear allowing them to auto-pass dangerous terrain checks or ability to improve on a 4+ ruin cover save, they are actually safer out in the open (where they at least don't have to take dangerous terrain checks). BLOS terrain is a different story, of course.

I don't disagree that they're just as safe out in the open. I'm disagreeing that such a level of safety will keep them alive past even a trivial amount of offense.

When you have to shoot an army at something that's a huge amount of points, it doesn't matter that it dies. When you have to shoot 2 units at it, it does.

 Swabby wrote:
Am I the only one out there that thinks that skyweavers in Faolchu's Blade may be worthwhile? a 4+ rerollable jink seems nice for something that is probably going to be eating alot of overwatch.

I'm going to be giving it a shot, hopefully tomorrow, in a 500 point game. I'm just going to keep them stock so I can snap shoot shuriken cannons after jinking, and try to use them to lock down enemy units in combat so my Troupe can catch up and finish them off without taking overwatch fire. Assuming I get the game in, I'll let you know how it goes.

Ugh, there was another "competitive harlequins" article on BoLS. Apparently the only thing this army is good at is giving str6 shooting to dark eldar. Also, we aren't going to affect the meta at all. Damn but I wish I had the time to go to tournaments and plop down 1850 of Harlis to see what they can really do!

Edit: never mind.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Ugh, there was another "competitive harlequins" article on BoLS. Apparently the only thing this army is good at is giving str6 shooting to dark eldar. Also, we aren't going to affect the meta at all. Damn but I wish I had the time to go to tournaments and plop down 1850 of Harlis to see what they can really do!

I will hopefully be getting in 2 games this week back to back, as spring break is finally here. I'm thinking about doing a write up despite my army being completely unpainted (being as I decided to strip them and repaint them right before graduate school started, and only got the stripping part done....). I've got one list in particular I'm eager to try out that is extremely anti-meta, and I think can work very well. I'm a big believer in finding innovative solutions to problems, which is something the net-hive mind isn't keen on- until your list wins a GT it's crap. Once it has, it's OP and everyone knew it always was.

 Dash2021 wrote:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Ugh, there was another "competitive harlequins" article on BoLS. Apparently the only thing this army is good at is giving str6 shooting to dark eldar. Also, we aren't going to affect the meta at all. Damn but I wish I had the time to go to tournaments and plop down 1850 of Harlis to see what they can really do!

I will hopefully be getting in 2 games this week back to back, as spring break is finally here. I'm thinking about doing a write up despite my army being completely unpainted (being as I decided to strip them and repaint them right before graduate school started, and only got the stripping part done....). I've got one list in particular I'm eager to try out that is extremely anti-meta, and I think can work very well. I'm a big believer in finding innovative solutions to problems, which is something the net-hive mind isn't keen on- until your list wins a GT it's crap. Once it has, it's OP and everyone knew it always was.

Please do give a write up, I think we would love to hear what you came up with.

I did read that article and found it extremely lame. If all you are doing is shooting with Harlequins, you are doing it wrong. It seems to me that they need to be in assault and they need to take advantage of leadership shenanigans and they need to sweep units rather than go toe-to-toe with them round after round. I also listened to the latest Jaded Gamer podcast (which I normally love) and they missed a ton of things and generally bashed the codex.

Personally, I have gotten more out of this thread than any of the articles I have read so far.

Vashones wrote:
Personally, I have gotten more out of this thread than any of the articles I have read so far.

Very much agree with this. It's been a great resource and discussion. Reminds me of the Tyranid thread which I also found really helpful.

Agreed. The article was trash, just like the last one. BoLS articles on strategy pretty much always revolve around spamming units, never on using your head, and this one was no exception. And Theoryhammer only gets you so far - you've got to play some games to find out what really works. I have also really enjoyed this thread, and found it to be a great place to share discoveries and community knowledge.

I wish the internet would let the whole "melee is dead" thing die. The Harlequin codex, the blood angel codex, tyranids, Orks, dark eldar all of these need melee and the threat of melee to accomplish most of their mission goals. The last three only have difficulty getting to top tables without spamming crutch units because of the huge pile of waveserpents they have to wade through to get to the top. Once those take a hit, the meta is going to flip on its head!

About to start work on my Jetbikes, still not sure which Eldar Character supplements Harlequins the most.

Torn between Autarch, Spirit Seer or Farseer.

 Swastakowey wrote:
About to start work on my Jetbikes, still not sure which Eldar Character supplements Harlequins the most.

Torn between Autarch, Spirit Seer or Farseer.

If you are set on adding one, I would go with the farseer. Divination for prescience will allow more 6's to hit for some units. And with solitaires, death jesters, and anyone with a caress those extra hits will make a world of difference. It is also a way to generate more warp charges easily so you can get veil of tears off on more units.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
About to start work on my Jetbikes, still not sure which Eldar Character supplements Harlequins the most.

Torn between Autarch, Spirit Seer or Farseer.

If you are set on adding one, I would go with the farseer. Divination for prescience will allow more 6's to hit for some units. And with solitaires, death jesters, and anyone with a caress those extra hits will make a world of difference. It is also a way to generate more warp charges easily so you can get veil of tears off on more units.

Pretty much this. The questions you need to ask picking Eldar HQs: Do you need something cheap, or need reserve manipulation for your list -> Autarch. Do you have a lot of points or need WG to be troops -> Spirit Seer. Otherwise Farseer is always the answer IMO. Cheapest 3 WC psycher in the game, and for 15 points gets a jetbike? You need a very convincing argument to not take them.

Unless you are running wraithgaurd I see almost zero reason to include a spirit seer when you have access to shadow seers. The shadow seer outclasses the spirit seer. If you want cheap warp charges farseers and warlocks are the best

I'm playing around with list ideas and one is with a, 8-10 man unit of wraithblades (maybe wraithguard). I'm thinking of taking a cast of players formation to give the wraith units crusader, which if you use Iyanden the spiritseers can cast Voice of Twilight and give battle focus/furious charge. or try for Quicken from Runes of Battle as a +3" run move. The wraiths are still kind of slow, but with crusader they get a lot faster, Quicken is icing on the cake.

My question; if I take an empty Wave Serpent and stuff the Harlies in the serpent, does the 6" crusader bonus apply from the distance from the hull of the serpent? The bonus is for the formation, not sure if they being in a transport will confer.

Vashones wrote:

My question; if I take an empty Wave Serpent and stuff the Harlies in the serpent, does the 6" crusader bonus apply from the distance from the hull of the serpent? The bonus is for the formation, not sure if they being in a transport will confer.

Hull. Also, pray for first turn, elsewise they may never get into a Wave Serpent.

So, after playing some games I realized a different angle for running deathjesters. Don't just use them as lures to draw people closer, use them to push support elements away from prime melee targets! I've used my jesters to good effect by simply ensuring that my opponents units don't have backup when my troupers hit home.
The last thing Harlequin troupes want is to multi assault. You don't get furious charge, you lose one attack, and the opponent may actually survive to strike back. Not good! Using multiple DJ's to push opponents around let's you chose who you are taking on from whatever angle you want.

Say you have a tau castle in the corner, 3 DJ's will drag one unit forward, push two units back, and allow you to not only hit what you want but also possibly keep them from using supporting fire!


The other benefit is that with a -2 laedership modifier, the tau, and astra militarum don't really want to be that close to the edge an way, already giving us an advantage in tactics.

 lambsandlions wrote:
Unless you are running wraithgaurd I see almost zero reason to include a spirit seer when you have access to shadow seers. The shadow seer outclasses the spirit seer. If you want cheap warp charges farseers and warlocks are the best

The Shadowseer gets shrouded for their primaris though and having a 3+ cover save is really nice for harlies. Veil of Tears isn't very reliable IMO, since people can just move and shoot your Harlies to hell without needing much of a 2D6 roll.

mercury14 wrote:

 lambsandlions wrote:
Unless you are running wraithgaurd I see almost zero reason to include a spirit seer when you have access to shadow seers. The shadow seer outclasses the spirit seer. If you want cheap warp charges farseers and warlocks are the best

The Shadowseer gets shrouded for their primaris though and having a 3+ cover save is really nice for harlies. Veil of Tears isn't very reliable IMO, since people can just move and shoot your Harlies to hell without needing much of a 2D6 roll.

Incorrect, Veil of Tears is the Primaris.

DirtyDeeds wrote:


Incorrect, Veil of Tears is the Primaris.

He meant spirit seer not shadowseer. That said I don't think shroud is worth the 70 points or the hq slot.

Also quick question, do harlequins get extra attacks when charging into cover against a unit with defensive grenades?

 lambsandlions wrote:

DirtyDeeds wrote:


Incorrect, Veil of Tears is the Primaris.

He meant spirit seer not shadowseer. That said I don't think shroud is worth the 70 points or the hq slot.

Also quick question, do harlequins get extra attacks when charging into cover against a unit with defensive grenades?

No, they have no rule stating as such. Still wouldn't want to multi assault though, you want that +1 str! Harlequin are the only melee army that absolutely does not want to stay tied down in a fight. We do not tarpit well

I'm going to start off with the Cast of Players formation to go with my Wraith unit (with a Farseer and Spiritseer) and I'm trying to figure out the best configuration.
Here is what I have so far:

Death Jester
Shadow Seer (LM2 plus Mask)
Troupe Master with caress (because he has he most attacks, it seems logical to use the caress with him)
3 Players with embrace (to get into base contact, any more and it could be difficult)
5 Players with kiss

Total points is 363 will 11 members to possibly fit in a Wave Serpent.

The idea is that this formation will buff the wraiths with Crusader, act as a counter assault unit, and still be able to peel off and take on a small elite units, monstrous creatures, or even 10 man tac squads.

I am thinking with Veil of Tears the formation is relatively safe up from 12 to 16 inches out. At 18 inches, I can use the Hallucinogenic grenades. At 12 inches, the mask comes into effect, so shots with the Death Jester are at -4 leadership and I can push/pull units if I wound. Also, I can cast psychic powers that benefit from leadership debuffs.

There is this "no-mans" land though at 12-15 inches. Its too long for a good charge range without the run/charge benefit, but you are in rapid fire range at that point from Necrons, Marines, and Fire Warriors. Should I add in Neuro Disruptors to an already expensive unit and make it more shooty, or should I just try to close with enemy units, hope that VOT keeps me safe, and try to pin them to mitigate overwatch?

Having never played with a glass cannon melee unit before, I find it awkward to get them into position for an effective charge.

Vashones wrote:
I'm going to start off with the Cast of Players formation to go with my Wraith unit (with a Farseer and Spiritseer) and I'm trying to figure out the best configuration.
Here is what I have so far:

Death Jester
Shadow Seer (LM2 plus Mask)
Troupe Master with caress (because he has he most attacks, it seems logical to use the caress with him)
3 Players with embrace (to get into base contact, any more and it could be difficult)
5 Players with kiss

Total points is 363 will 11 members to possibly fit in a Wave Serpent.

The idea is that this formation will buff the wraiths with Crusader, act as a counter assault unit, and still be able to peel off and take on a small elite units, monstrous creatures, or even 10 man tac squads.

I am thinking with Veil of Tears the formation is relatively safe up from 12 to 16 inches out. At 18 inches, I can use the Hallucinogenic grenades. At 12 inches, the mask comes into effect, so shots with the Death Jester are at -4 leadership and I can push/pull units if I wound. Also, I can cast psychic powers that benefit from leadership debuffs.

There is this "no-mans" land though at 12-15 inches. Its too long for a good charge range without the run/charge benefit, but you are in rapid fire range at that point from Necrons, Marines, and Fire Warriors. Should I add in Neuro Disruptors to an already expensive unit and make it more shooty, or should I just try to close with enemy units, hope that VOT keeps me safe, and try to pin them to mitigate overwatch?

Having never played with a glass cannon melee unit before, I find it awkward to get them into position for an effective charge.

Cast of players does have a kind of "dead man" range, being as it doesn't get run/charge. With the detachment/formation you can pretty reliably move 10" before the charge for an average 18" threat range, but cast has to be tricksey about it. You definitely don't need pistols. Nothing they can do the WG you're escorting can't do too.

Things I'd consider: adding another Spirit Seer or two, using the WG to give you cover. You're already bringing the SS's to make the wraiths troops, so go ahead and capitalize on the other thing that they have going for them- you get multiples. You already need to take Iyanden to get battle focus for the WG, so why not? Gives you opportunities to roll for invis/shrouding, and either one would be gravy. Invis is self explanatory, shrouding allows you to use those WG as a mobile screen for 2+ cover saves (and give the WG cover saves).

WG backed up by a players formation is very synergistic, in that the best way to counter foot wraiths is in combat. A blob of troupes running behind them ready to counter attack makes that a very poor option, and the WG should keep most anything far enough out that getting close enough to see through veil isn't likely.