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 Dash2021 wrote:

Vashones wrote:
I'm going to start off with the Cast of Players formation to go with my Wraith unit (with a Farseer and Spiritseer) and I'm trying to figure out the best configuration.
Here is what I have so far:

Death Jester
Shadow Seer (LM2 plus Mask)
Troupe Master with caress (because he has he most attacks, it seems logical to use the caress with him)
3 Players with embrace (to get into base contact, any more and it could be difficult)
5 Players with kiss

Total points is 363 will 11 members to possibly fit in a Wave Serpent.

The idea is that this formation will buff the wraiths with Crusader, act as a counter assault unit, and still be able to peel off and take on a small elite units, monstrous creatures, or even 10 man tac squads.

I am thinking with Veil of Tears the formation is relatively safe up from 12 to 16 inches out. At 18 inches, I can use the Hallucinogenic grenades. At 12 inches, the mask comes into effect, so shots with the Death Jester are at -4 leadership and I can push/pull units if I wound. Also, I can cast psychic powers that benefit from leadership debuffs.

There is this "no-mans" land though at 12-15 inches. Its too long for a good charge range without the run/charge benefit, but you are in rapid fire range at that point from Necrons, Marines, and Fire Warriors. Should I add in Neuro Disruptors to an already expensive unit and make it more shooty, or should I just try to close with enemy units, hope that VOT keeps me safe, and try to pin them to mitigate overwatch?

Having never played with a glass cannon melee unit before, I find it awkward to get them into position for an effective charge.

Cast of players does have a kind of "dead man" range, being as it doesn't get run/charge. With the detachment/formation you can pretty reliably move 10" before the charge for an average 18" threat range, but cast has to be tricksey about it. You definitely don't need pistols. Nothing they can do the WG you're escorting can't do too.

Things I'd consider: adding another Spirit Seer or two, using the WG to give you cover. You're already bringing the SS's to make the wraiths troops, so go ahead and capitalize on the other thing that they have going for them- you get multiples. You already need to take Iyanden to get battle focus for the WG, so why not? Gives you opportunities to roll for invis/shrouding, and either one would be gravy. Invis is self explanatory, shrouding allows you to use those WG as a mobile screen for 2+ cover saves (and give the WG cover saves).

WG backed up by a players formation is very synergistic, in that the best way to counter foot wraiths is in combat. A blob of troupes running behind them ready to counter attack makes that a very poor option, and the WG should keep most anything far enough out that getting close enough to see through veil isn't likely.

I will definitely modify the list to include another SS, if nothing else than having a roll on the Telepathy table.

I like the synergy of the two units as well, you just need to keep them close. But, with a unit of Wraiths plus a Wraithknight, there are more pressing threat options for most opponents, so the Harlies can hide behind them for a while. it just limits your options to break off and tackle a unit sitting on an objective, unless they are weak and/or you can find cover. But you are right, with Wraiths they have their own 12" of no mans land!

I'm going to try it out this Friday at a local tourney, I'll let everyone know how it goes.

Speaking of Telepathy has anyone had a chance to use Hammer Hand with a squad?

Hammer hand on a squad armed w Kisses would be great with the standard attack.

 Skerr wrote:
Speaking of Telepathy has anyone had a chance to use Hammer Hand with a squad?

Hammer hand on a squad armed w Kisses would be great with the standard attack.

I agree, but I think it is overkill.

You want things that save them from shooting, not stuff that makes them even better in attack to the point they are left standing in the open.

I like the idea of giving hammer hand to grotesques.

The trick is, you want them to crush whatever they are fighting(they won't survive the counterpunch) but need them far enough away to not be shot. The death jesters and the serpents brood are the best ways I've seen to get this accomplished. Every death is really felt with Harlequins. You don't want the enemy to have any chance to attack, period.

 Skerr wrote:
Speaking of Telepathy has anyone had a chance to use Hammer Hand with a squad?

Hammer hand on a squad armed w Kisses would be great with the standard attack.

No but on a related note I managed to hammer hand a group of Striking Scorpions last weekend and slaughter a bunch of Tyrannid Warriors, a load of gaunts, and Venomthrope. It was a lot of fun

Good points by all.

Sanctuary? 4 plus invuln. Rerolls have better chance of success.

Got my game in today, but just one (second game canceled) and I flubbed my list. We have a group heading to adepticon this weekend, so I was trying to help the people who are going prep.

Cast of players:
7 Harlies w/kisses x 1 TM w/kiss and Haywire
Death Jester w/haywire
Shadowseer- ML2+ Haywire + mask


CWE:
Farseer- Jetbike + Shard
Farseer- Jetbike + Stone of anath
Warlock

DA x 5 in WS w/SL + holofields
DA x 5 in Ws w/SL + holofields
20 x Guardians + 2BLs

WK
Dark Reapers x 4 w/starshot+ Exarch w/starshot +nightvision +fast shot
in WS w/SL + holofields

So anyway, I flubbed bringing in the WK. Got back home and realized he wasn't in the list, and was subbed for some Warp Spiders and jet bikes. I've been underwhelmed by my WK pretty consistently anyway, and my Warp Spiders always bring the heat. Plus, the idea behind the list is to be very anti-meta with a heavy infantry presence and the WK just doesn't fit.

Opponents list (roughly from memory)
3 Tzeench heralds
Fateweaver

4 x 11 pink horrors

Tzeench demon prince

~8 Screamers

I was pretty jazzed to see a psuedo scremerstar/demon factory. It's a bad matchup for this list, so a good test of exactly how it can perform in sub-optimal situations.

I'll highlight the important parts:
WK tar-pitted the Screamer star turn 1. Harlies charged in first turn, since they had turbod right in-front of the Harlies and I figured it'd give me free HnR movement into the backfield. Harlies charged again second turn, because I am rusty and decided to keep pounding away at an invincible unit that I had successfully locked down with the WK for no reason.

Third turn Harlies charged in again, but by this time I'd pulled my head out of my sphincter and declared a multi-assault with the plague bearers that had been summoned right beside them. Only the DJ went into the Screamers (to tie them into the bigger combat), everyone else into the plagues who lose all but 2. After combat resolution and mask, both units take massive losses to instability. Plagues are wiped out, screamers take 8 wounds.

Dark Reapers do ~ 5 wounds a turn to FMCs, quite nearly killing a Flying demon a turn. Unfortunately, 3 WS's and the guardians barely managed to eek out a single wound to mop up, and even then not consistently.

Takeaways: DRs are solid anti-air. S8 Ap3 skyfire is no joke. Had I brought my WSpiders, and gotten them a guide or two, the FMC's wouldn't have been as big an issue. Late game switched over to Heavy2 shots to clear pink horrors off an objective. Verdict: I really feel like DRs as an anti-meta spoiler are a great option. High Strength, low AP skyfire shooting that ignores jink is huge in the current meta. Bikes, Flyrants, WS's all are hard countered by the ignoring jink. Krak missles and 2xS5 Ap3 shots make them versatile enough to be useful against everything else as well. Unit of 6 in a starweaver is a good option to go with the foot presence feel of Harlies, or better yet sitting in back w/a shadowseer immune to ranged shooting while they clear high pt targets all game.

Cast of Players: Hard as tacks. Even after my moronic T2 charge back into the Screamers that saw ~half the troupers dead, 3 + Shadowseer/DJ/Farseer ravaged a unit a turn. Part of the dmg was due to winning combat + -2LD from mask eating up demons, but they had to win combat and survive long enough to get to the next combat for that to work. The high WS went quite a way in helping them survive in combat, ensuring that no more than half the attacks ever landed in the first place. Invis would have made them virtually indestructible, but when you're rolling against 20+ dice...

That said, it's not my first option for Harlies. While Crusader is nice, it doesn't begin to make up for run/charge. Run/Charge takes them from being standard foot slogging infantry that can be outmaneuvered, to a fast and deadly hammer.

Guardian blob- Meh. They didn't really do much of anything, but that was more my problem than theirs. The large blob of OS troops beg for bunched up objectives, and instead I spread them out as I'm used to with my Jet bike lists. Part of the strategy for this list is to force the opponent to focus on the 8pt guardians, and I let my opponent ignore them all game. Will need to get more games in before I pass judgement on their worthiness.

All in all, I was impressed how the list worked. Even in maybe the most sub-optimal setting the list held its own, even considering the psychic powers I was relying on to keep me safe were consistently shut down.

Not harlequin related but - how did you have sky fire on the reapers?

How hard was it to get your powers off against the demons? Were they able to shut down your who psychic phase or could they only stop one or two powers?

 Massaen wrote:
Not harlequin related but - how did you have sky fire on the reapers?

A Mysterious Objective?

[edit: or the AA upgrade per-model]

Dont have my eldar dex in front of me but I think they get a skyfire upgrade option in their wargear.

nice report, thanks for sharing.

I too am interested if your psycks were shut down or held their own.

Had to be mysterious objective. Only the exarch can get Flakk missiles, sadly.

Looks like a good game. Eldar can hold their own against Daemons, but Harlequins definitely need their craftworld support.
Charging the screamers turn 1 sounds amazing! If only all daemon players would misplay like that...
Glad to see the quins doing work though.

 Rypher wrote:
Had to be mysterious objective. Only the exarch can get Flakk missiles, sadly.

Looks like a good game. Eldar can hold their own against Daemons, but Harlequins definitely need their craftworld support.
Charging the screamers turn 1 sounds amazing! If only all daemon players would misplay like that...
Glad to see the quins doing work though.

*Edit* Mis read. Yes, Exarch only gets Skyfire. But Heavy 2 Starswarm twin linked = gravy.vs FMCs. Reason you don't see them often is because a 40+pt T3 1 wound model is begging to be killed. But as I said w/Harlies and other psychic support to protect them I think the ignoring jink mechanic makes them a great anti-meta spoiler. Honestly, I'd consider running 3 min squads of them to max out Exarchs. While the rest of the reapers are exorbitantly expensive, the Exarch w/fast shot is a steal. Maybe even just 3 in an imperial bunker w/a quad gun.

This was my opponents first time vs. Harlies, so he was basically looking to tie them up and keep them out of his backfield. Didn't realize they had HnR. I misplayed equally though: I didn't realize in the Adepticon FAQ you can't move over units w/HnR, so just sat where I was and charged instead of moving to his side/behind him to get a better HnR lane. It was one of the reasons I charged back in T2, w/the circuitous route I had to take to HnR out of combat I wasn't sure I could reach another unit.

Psychic powers weren't a huge issue tbh. I had rolled invis, so I used that to my advantage. I saved it for last and cast everything else first, so that he'd have to either blow all his dice on the smaller powers or let my Harlies be invulnerable for a turn. So while I only got of Invis once, the rest of my powers he had a hard time denying (if I got them off in the first place). As I alluded to earlier, my dice kinda took a crap on me during the game. Case in point: I failed a 3" charge with the Harlies, after fleet....

In the end, it's still grasping for straws in order to find an answer to FMCs for both Harlies and CWE though. They're a huge weakness, and with both flyrant spam and Flying circus being top tier lists you need an answer. Unfortunately CWE have anti-flyer options ranging from bad to horrid. It's one of the reasons I jumped so hard on DE as the optimal Harlie choice early on. Razorwings are amazing for the points, and being able to take up to 6 is just plain good. I like my CWE and I like having a psycher heavy army that is flexible to all comers, but the AA options in the book are ludicrously over priced.

Great write up Dash, thanks for the report. You mentioned that you were underwhelmed by WKs, did you change your opinion after this battle? They just seem like such a great compliment to Harlies because they definitely eat overwatch and can tarpit units for a turn while the harlies pile in to assault.

I never have much luck with Brightlance platforms with Guardians. Its one or two shots that never seem to do anything. I'm so used to volume of shooting with Eldar that they seem to let me down more than anything.

Vashones wrote:
Great write up Dash, thanks for the report. You mentioned that you were underwhelmed by WKs, did you change your opinion after this battle? They just seem like such a great compliment to Harlies because they definitely eat overwatch and can tarpit units for a turn while the harlies pile in to assault.

I never have much luck with Brightlance platforms with Guardians. Its one or two shots that never seem to do anything. I'm so used to volume of shooting with Eldar that they seem to let me down more than anything.

Actually, even with the WK tying up the screamer-star all game I was still un-impressed. He got to shoot once all game, and missed with that as he normally does. The Screamers didn't even need the 2+ most of the time, as the WK rarely connected w/more than 2 attacks per turn. Same number of points in Warp Spiders would have given me hyper mobile S6 shooting that would have been removing whole pink horror squads a turn. In order to tie up the Screamer star I'd have switched tactics to just throw all my dice at Invis (saving one for perils) and used the harlies to tie them up. Might have even been able to use HnR to get him to expose the grimore herald to get a few harlies in btb w/him.

Guardian blob is mostly just to be a fearless block of objective secured. If the BL does something it's nice, but you really just want them hopping on objectives in your backfield and holding them. Their best function is forcing your opponent to either come after them w/a CC unit (allowing you to counter attack) or forcing your opponent to use long range shooting to take care of them (which will almost certainly be overkill). Either way, you win. Throw in shrouded on them from the Warlock and make sure you're in cover, and they become annoyingly resistant to ranged dmg. As I mentioned, I misplayed pretty badly in this game by spreading out objectives instead of clumping them where I could take advantage of the guardians. I'm used to playing a much more mobile jetbike army, and that habit came back and bit me pretty hard.

I'll be trying out this list for a while as I buy transports and such to run a mask, so hopefully I'll learn to use it a bit better. I think it's got some potential, but the Players formation is really limited w/out run/charge. I was a bit surprised just how often I really needed those extra 4 or so inches.

 Dash2021 wrote:

Guardian blob is mostly just to be a fearless block of objective secured.

The only thing with Fearless in your list was the Wraith Knight.

Farseer w/Shard is, too.

I'm still quite impressed with the wraithknight. It compliments the harlequins very well. I don't mind him not shooting at all if I can get him into combat with something that doesn't want to be there, such as screamers. Hitting on 3's against them is icing on the cake.

I had a fun game against a CSM list last night. Used Masque detachment plus an Eldar CAD. He conceded turn 3 when he only had 1 obliterator and a heldrake left, while only managing to kill a fire dragon, 3 harlequins, and the solitaire (who only had to make 4 saves the whole game, but rolled a 1,1,2,3 :wink: )

List
Masque
3x5 Troupes
2 kisses, 1 kiss on each Master. Warlord - Starmist raiment
2x dedicated Starweavers

Shadowseer - Lvl 1
Shadowseer - Lvl 2, Mask of Secrets
Solitaire

Starweaver
1x4 Skyweavers - 2x glaives

1x Void weaver

Eldar
Farseer - Jetbike, Spear
Spiritseer - Falochu's Wing

2x3 Windrider jetbikes

1x5 Fire dragons - Exarch

Wraithknight


Revised the list after the game to ditch the level 1 seer and the exarch upgrade for another dedicated starweaver. I was quite happy with how it all performed. Dragons and the knight added the anti-tank I needed. Farseer and spiritseer made the skyweavers hilarious, especially being able to go 48" to put them where I needed them turns 1 & 2. I did get invisibility, but was more than happy with just having conceal on the unit.

DarknessEternal wrote:

 Dash2021 wrote:

Guardian blob is mostly just to be a fearless block of objective secured.

The only thing with Fearless in your list was the Wraith Knight.

Farseer w/Shard

Shadowseer w/Mask

Rypher wrote:I'm still quite impressed with the wraithknight. It compliments the harlequins very well. I don't mind him not shooting at all if I can get him into combat with something that doesn't want to be there, such as screamers. Hitting on 3's against them is icing on the cake.

I had a fun game against a CSM list last night. Used Masque detachment plus an Eldar CAD. He conceded turn 3 when he only had 1 obliterator and a heldrake left, while only managing to kill a fire dragon, 3 harlequins, and the solitaire (who only had to make 4 saves the whole game, but rolled a 1,1,2,3 :wink: )

List
Masque
3x5 Troupes
2 kisses, 1 kiss on each Master. Warlord - Starmist raiment
2x dedicated Starweavers

Shadowseer - Lvl 1
Shadowseer - Lvl 2, Mask of Secrets
Solitaire

Starweaver
1x4 Skyweavers - 2x glaives

1x Void weaver

Eldar
Farseer - Jetbike, Spear
Spiritseer - Falochu's Wing

2x3 Windrider jetbikes

1x5 Fire dragons - Exarch

Wraithknight


Revised the list after the game to ditch the level 1 seer and the exarch upgrade for another dedicated starweaver. I was quite happy with how it all performed. Dragons and the knight added the anti-tank I needed. Farseer and spiritseer made the skyweavers hilarious, especially being able to go 48" to put them where I needed them turns 1 & 2. I did get invisibility, but was more than happy with just having conceal on the unit.

I like the idea of the Spirit Seer with Falochu. Still not sure I'd go a SS over a Farseer, but it at least makes it a question worth asking. My biggest problem with Spirit Seers has always been no access to jetbikes, and Falochu at least takes care of the mobility issue. Guaranteed Conceal makes the Jetbikes fairly durable with 2 wounds and, S5 Ap2 wrecks backfield units. Good idea with the wings, I'd written that relic off a long time ago.

Do you find that the list's rather diverse durability causes any problems? When mixing in Harlequins, are hard targets overpaying for survivability when you have so many more fragile targets around? Or are powers and other shenanigans keeping your otherwise-fragile units from being reasonable targets?

 Rypher wrote:
I'm still quite impressed with the wraithknight. It compliments the harlequins very well. I don't mind him not shooting at all if I can get him into combat with something that doesn't want to be there, such as screamers. Hitting on 3's against them is icing on the cake.

I had a fun game against a CSM list last night. Used Masque detachment plus an Eldar CAD. He conceded turn 3 when he only had 1 obliterator and a heldrake left, while only managing to kill a fire dragon, 3 harlequins, and the solitaire (who only had to make 4 saves the whole game, but rolled a 1,1,2,3 :wink: )

List
Masque
3x5 Troupes
2 kisses, 1 kiss on each Master. Warlord - Starmist raiment
2x dedicated Starweavers

Shadowseer - Lvl 1
Shadowseer - Lvl 2, Mask of Secrets
Solitaire

Starweaver
1x4 Skyweavers - 2x glaives

1x Void weaver

Eldar
Farseer - Jetbike, Spear
Spiritseer - Falochu's Wing

2x3 Windrider jetbikes

1x5 Fire dragons - Exarch

Wraithknight


Revised the list after the game to ditch the level 1 seer and the exarch upgrade for another dedicated starweaver. I was quite happy with how it all performed. Dragons and the knight added the anti-tank I needed. Farseer and spiritseer made the skyweavers hilarious, especially being able to go 48" to put them where I needed them turns 1 & 2. I did get invisibility, but was more than happy with just having conceal on the unit.

I believe the Harlequins can only ever take one relic per army, so a mask or a starmist, but not both.

I had to look up Falochu's wing again, I don't think I have ever seen that used! Very clever way to get conceal on the bikes.

Pg 70 Harlequin codex
"A model may take one of the following"

It doesn't say only one relic per detachment/army...

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Pg 70 Harlequin codex
"A model may take one of the following"

It doesn't say only one relic per detachment/army...

On page 93 under the Enigmas of the Black Library, it states "Only one of each of the following relics may be chosen per army."

"Only one of each" reads like they are unique, but not a limit to how many relics you may take over all. IMHO.

 Swabby wrote:
"Only one of each" reads like they are unique, but not a limit to how many relics you may take over all. IMHO.

I would Agree, Only one of each, with a model only allowed one.
Whereas if it said one per army or something along those lines.

I must be suffering from rules reading incomprehension, I've read that thing like 20 times and thought it was one per army!

Never mind, nothing to see here folks...

Vashones wrote:
I must be suffering from rules reading incomprehension, I've read that thing like 20 times and thought it was one per army!

Never mind, nothing to see here folks...

Better to figure it out here than at a tournament.



I have been meaning to ask you guys, how are you using voidweavers? This unit is so awkward to me. Short range, and wants to be facing different units to maximize damage output. The best I can figure is to skim it center board and turn it into a shuriken sprinkler.

The interesting fire arcs get even more interesting in a squadron as the rear weapon has permission to fire at a different target - so a squadron of 3 can actually engage 4 targets assuming the fire arcs requirement is met

 Massaen wrote:
The interesting fire arcs get even more interesting in a squadron as the rear weapon has permission to fire at a different target - so a squadron of 3 can actually engage 4 targets assuming the fire arcs requirement is met

Hadn't thought of that, if they are all aiming at the same target (say a rhino) then the way they are pivoted would increase the odds of them having a rear arc facing another unit. Personally, I see it as a way to deal with deep strike units arriving behind them, even if I turn my main gun at them, I can still fire something at my original target.

Actually, that makes them more adept at dealing with outflankers and drop pod lists. Enemy units coming up behind them don't cause them to lose any efficiency. It actually makes them better at their job!