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As mentioned in my previous list, I'm happy with how it all worked. It's not the end all be all in terms of competitiveness, but it gets the job done.

I would be fine facing flyrants the more I think about it. Deploying further back, staying in the starweavers, and 2+ jink skyweavers+seers means the flyrants can kill 1-2 unit a turn, but not more than that.

The big thing I find is paying for durability from the Eldar codex, something I'm quite happy to do. The list as a whole is incredibly mobile. I only wish I could fit it as a Revenge formation instead for rerolling 1's on the Solitaire & Warlord, but it's not that big of an issue.

Bharring wrote:
Do you find that the list's rather diverse durability causes any problems? When mixing in Harlequins, are hard targets overpaying for survivability when you have so many more fragile targets around? Or are powers and other shenanigans keeping your otherwise-fragile units from being reasonable targets?

It depends on how you play it. If you make a static gunline w/Harlies rushing forwards, then your opponent is going to just kill the expensive Harlies first and then deal with guns. The whole point of having durable units mixed in with Harlies (or the theory anyway) is to overplay their durability in order to shift pressure off the Harlies. By being overaggressive with a durable unit (WG, Grotesques, w/e) and standoffish with your Harlies, you can force your opponents attention onto the durable unit for one turn. And really, that's all you need is one turn. After that a mask/revenge detachment should be in charge range, and at that point it's to late to deal with them.

Harlies are very much a finess codex, and you have to have a plan for your army when you build it. Run/Charge + ignoring cover is your bread and butter and it will determine if you get wiped out or win. If you can't use those rules well, you won't do well with Harlies. If you can figure out how to keep your vulnerable space clowns behind/in cover till a charge opens up you'll muderlate whatever you hit. One or two overaggressive units with the durability to take the heat can help to that end by being slightly easier targets than the Clowns on turn one. I think WG are great in this role, as even 1 WG is still a huge AT threat that needs to be dealt with, and it's likely you'll get 1-2 in even min sized squads to survive a turn.

It's far from the only way to deal get Harlies there though. You could always go the opposite route and DS in a bunch of cheapo wyches with them and just overload your opponents ability to deal with all the CC threats. Either way is a valid strat.

So, I have a 1200 point game against ultramarines on Saturday. I am running path of heroes formation alongside the masque detachment.
Troupe one: storied sword, one each caress and embrace and 2x kiss
Troupe two: caress and crescendo on the master, one each caress and embrace, two kiss
Troupe three: neuro disruptor on the master
Star weavers with zephyrglaive and haywire cannon on both
Star weaver
Void weaver with prism cannon
Shadowseer (phantasmancy)
Shadowseer ml2 (phantasmancy)
2x death jesters

Way of heroes: solitaire with haywire grenades, death jester, and shadowseer with mask of secrets(telepathy)

The death jesters and the ml2 seer go with troupe 3
Other shadowseer runs with troupe one with the warlord the void weaver lurks nearby to give support should the opponent try and gang up on them
Troupe 2 goes in the starweaver
The skyweavers run interference for the heroes, help clean up whatever the solitaire takes on. With three haywire shots between them, most vehicles are popped and if they combat squad I don't have to worry about one of them gunning me down after I kill the other in melee.

With the shadowseers spread out I should be pinning things all over the place, and my opponent likes to run terminators and scouts in addition to his tactical. The death jesters should be able to take the latter down easily. The rest of the troupe is there to be ablative wounds for the shooters and the shadowseer.

What do you think?

I'm not a fan of the Solitaire with haywire grenades. He already has a caress and will do more damage with that than a grenade, statistically. Against weaker vehicles (AV10 - 12), his Kiss and possibly his normal strength 4 attacks can also glance them out without sacrificing all of his attacks for a single grenade that still could miss.

With the Heroes' Path formation, you give up Rising Crescendo, which is a huge boon to all harlequin based detachments. I personally am fine with this, but I have Eldar in my lists instead of pure quins. With all the units you are taking already, it wouldn't be much of a stretch to make the whole troupe a Revenge formation, would it? You'll gain Rising Crescendo on the DJ/SS/Solitaire as well as the durability boost from rerolling 1's for invulnerable saves. You might have to play with points to get the single star weaver back, as you'll need an extra skyweaver unit, but they're solid for their points.

It sounds like each Shadowseer is being attached to a squad in your previous list. Heroes' Path shadowseer can't join a squad, nor can the Death jester. The mask of secrets is a waste on her, as you'll lose the fearless benefit it also gives the unit (typically, stick her in the warlord's unit).

Lastly, I'm not a fan of kitting out all of the units with max weapons. Why not have one or two naked players to soak up the inevitable wounds from shooting or overwatch? It won't hurt as bad to lose a 15 point model instead of a 20 or 23 point one and it won't diminish the damage output of the squad as badly as losing an embrace or kiss would.

Otherwise, your tactics seem quite solid. Best of luck!

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
So, I have a 1200 point game against ultramarines on Saturday. I am running path of heroes formation alongside the masque detachment.
Troupe one: storied sword, one each caress and embrace and 2x kiss
Troupe two: caress and crescendo on the master, one each caress and embrace, two kiss
Troupe three: neuro disruptor on the master
Star weavers with zephyrglaive and haywire cannon on both
Star weaver
Void weaver with prism cannon
Shadowseer (phantasmancy)
Shadowseer ml2 (phantasmancy)
2x death jesters

Way of heroes: solitaire with haywire grenades, death jester, and shadowseer with mask of secrets(telepathy)

The death jesters and the ml2 seer go with troupe 3
Other shadowseer runs with troupe one with the warlord the void weaver lurks nearby to give support should the opponent try and gang up on them
Troupe 2 goes in the starweaver
The skyweavers run interference for the heroes, help clean up whatever the solitaire takes on. With three haywire shots between them, most vehicles are popped and if they combat squad I don't have to worry about one of them gunning me down after I kill the other in melee.

With the shadowseers spread out I should be pinning things all over the place, and my opponent likes to run terminators and scouts in addition to his tactical. The death jesters should be able to take the latter down easily. The rest of the troupe is there to be ablative wounds for the shooters and the shadowseer.

What do you think?

No need to run Haywire on solitaires honestly. Unless you really feel you need to throw the grenade before charging to get that extra HP. Solitaire come stock with a caress and given his high # of attacks he'll do a minimum of one HP in CC already, 2 on blitz.

Storied sword is pretty overpriced for what it does. I'd much rather give the warlord TM a kiss and starmist rainment. Also, Harlies don't really have ablative wounds. 15 ppm is WAY to high a price to be paying for a meat shield, your harlies gotta earn their keep. Skyweavers are pretty over priced for what they do. 2 models are eating up 10% of your list.

One or two large troupes on foot aren't bad ideas, as veil is pretty reliable especially with all the warp charges you have. I'd put Mask on one of the Shadowseers in the troupes though, gives you a bit better use out of fearless. Also, I might be doing my math wrong but I think you're a bit over 1200.

Alt list for your consideration:
Mask
Troupe- 5 x 5 kisses
Troupe- 5 x 5 kisses
Troupe- 9 x 8 caresses x1 kiss TM w/Starmist Rainment

Starweaver
Starweaver

DJ
Shadowseers ML2 w/Mask + Haywire
Shadowseer

Voidweaver

Heroes
Solitaire
DJ
Shadowseer

total: 1199

2 kiss squads in Starweavers zoom up flanks, Large caress squad walks up center escorted by Shadowseers. Lone DJ can go with a squad in a starweaver to give you an extra wound when it blows up, then force a failed morale to make the second turn charge easy. Voidweaver.....probably blows up w/out doing much, but what you gonna do. That Caress squad can also reliably take out a IK, so your AT should be well covered. Starmist > Storied sword by a mile. S5 Ap3 is pretty weak, even master crafted. 3++ to soak up overwatch on the charge? Yes, please.

*Edit* Mostly ninjad by Rypher. He and I disagree about unit kits (all kisses all the time baby), but otherwise pretty much same suggestions. I almost suggested Revenge as well, but barebones it only leaves 130 points for kisses/mask/ML2 etc, and that's with no Starweavers for transport. 1200 is just to small a points value to make it work I think. 1300+ is about as low as I'd go for Revenge.

I know they can't join, they are there for msu purposes, the haywire grenade on the solitaire iz there to give him a ranged attack to take advantage of bs9 and help mitigate the loss of rising crescendo. I know I am wasting the mask on the infiltrating seer, but running telepathy for shriek combined with the infiltrated death jester will punish him if he tries to keep backfield missile launcher tactical/ or devastators. Killing one shouldn't be that hard, so they'll flee and I'll pin more efectivly with the halucinagen grenades from the seer. I use the heroes to draw fire, and 2+ cover on the solitary most of the time is about the same as 3+ reroll ones.

I am running what I have built and WYSIWYG is important to me. If I dropped things from the troupes, I would maybe get two extra bodies. I'd rather give my players more killing potential, personally.

And thanks! He's one of my tougher opponents, and a really good dude to play with. Should be a blast!

Edit: I am hoping to not lose anyone on the way in, but the 15 point bodies are the cheapest bodies I have. Also, o was 14 points over, so power sword and dropping the haywire grenades. I want to be WYSIWYG, and don't have most of the options you listed yet.

So I keep going back and forth on weapon options. If you are taking three troupes should you do one kiss, one embrace and one caress? I believe you should always take at least one unit of caresses for dealing with anti-tank. As for kisses vs embraces I am on the fence. d3 automatic hits is a lot. Assuming the average is 2 HoW hits per player 5 harlequins on the charge will kill 2.77 marines with HoW and 2.22 marines with regular attacks, for a total of about 5 marines dead. The kiss troupe with kill 2.77 marines with kisses but only 1.66 marines with regular attacks, for a total of about 4.5 marines killed. So the embraces should actually be better against marines. Embraces do even better as armor saves get worst. Kisses only seem to be better against sv2+ units and multiple wound units if you get the instance death. However, if you for some reason do not get that charge with your embrace troupe, they are pretty dead in the water, they also do significantly worst in subsequent rounds of combat.

Second question, if you are taking the masque detachment and want to take a solitaire is it worth adding the heros path formation for steal, shroud, and infiltrate or are the lone shadow seer and death jester too much of a tax?

I posted this in the Battle Reports section but thought it would be relevant here -

1750 Pure Harlequins vs Serpent Spam Eldar!

The goal – how do harlequins go as a standalone force against a very solid tournament list…

Eldar - CAD
Farseer, Jet Bike, Singing Spear, Mantle of the Laughing God, Spirit Stone of Anath’lan (Warlord Trait – stealth for 1 turn to units within 12”) – Powers – Prescience, Guide, Summoning
4x5 Dire Avengers, Wave Serpent w TL Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon
Crimson Hunter
2 Wraith Knights, heavy wraith cannons

Officio Assassinorium
1 Vindicare Assassin

1745 total

I know the vindicare is less than perfect but he was on my shelf and my opponent went – what the hell, I will use him! The rest of the list is essentially a very solid serpent spam build. The vindicare would have been better served as a unit of warp spiders I think but in the end – this is still very solid for a take all comers list.

VS

Harlequin Formation - Cegorach's Revenge

Solitaire
3 Death Jesters
3 Shadow Seers, all lvl 2, 1 mask of secrets (1 Telepathy, 1 Sanctic, 1 Phantasm) – (Mental Fortitude, Shrouding, Psychic Shriek / Banishment, Purge Soul, Vortex of Doom / Peal of Discord, Laugh of Sorrows, Veil of Tears) – all join the large troupe
Troupe – 5 Players (3 Kiss, 1 caress, 1 embrace), troupe master with power sword, haywire grenades, Sky weaver Transport
Troupe – 5 Players (3 Kiss, 1 caress, 1 embrace), troupe master with power sword, haywire grenades, Sky weaver Transport
Troupe – 8 Players (4 Kiss, 2 caress, 2 embrace), troupe master with power sword, haywire grenades, Sky weaver Transport (warlord trait – Twisted Encore from DARK)
2x2 Sky Weavers with Haywire Cannon, Zephyr glaive
2 Void Weavers, Haywire Cannons

1747 total

I was really interested to see if the reroll 1’s was worth the cost of the formation tax – see the final thoughts at the bottom of this to see what I think!

Hammer and Anvil, Big Guns Never Tire (3 Objectives)

Harlequins choose table edge first, deploy first, go first (eldar fail to seize)

Turn 1
The harlequins are lined up across the very front of their deployment zone. The 3 Death Jesters advance into a ruin as a single unit – this would come to haunt me in a moment... The whole battle line moves up, runs or turbo boosts. All the eldar are set back in their deployment zone and out of range for the harlequin support weapons. The shadow seers manage shrouding and veil but only had 7 dice to work with.

The eldar surge forwards. The psychic phase starts and a unit of 10 blood letters is summoned near my large troupe. With that over – they start shooting. The vindicare fails to wound with his shield breaker on one of my shadow seers and the 2 wraith knights fluff their attacks thanks to mirage launchers. The 4 serpents however are much worse… I loose 1 jet bike to the first serpent (again hooray mirage launchers plus reroll 1’s!) but then loose a star weaver (carrying a troupe of 6) which is then wiped out by the third serpent. The last targets my unit of 3 DJ in the ruins and promptly ID’s them all with the serpent shield! Fail! One of the WK charges my solitaire while the other fails a 6” charge into the other starweaver carrying another troupe. The solitaire wounds the WK once with his caress and then H&R away to close the distance to the farseer.

Eldar KP – First Blood, 5 KP (3 DJ, Star Weaver, Troupe)
Harlequin KP – Nothing!

Turn 2
The harlequins line up multiple options this turn. The 6 model troupe disembarks and lines up a charge on 1 wraith knight. The large troupe moves up to threaten the second WK and the summoned blood letters. The 3 sky weavers and void weavers move to all get shots on 2 of the wave serpents who have been left almost touching side by side. The remaining to star weavers line up on the wraith knight near the large troupe but have range and LOS to the daemons as well. The solitaire blitz attacks, rolls an 8” followed by a 6” run in the shooting phase to be 1 inch away from the farseer. In the psychic phase, I again got VoT on the big troupe. I also managed shriek on the WK closest (at -2 LD thanks to the mask) but he rolls a 7 on 3d6 and lives. I have 5 dice left pop peal of discord which does nothing. 3 dice left and I get off laugh of sorrows. He fails the first test by 1 and then the second by 3! Its on 1 wound! In the shooting phase, the 2 star weavers finish the WK off and kill a blood letter as well. The 5 haywire templates manage a single hull point on 1 WS after 4 scatters in excess of 5 inches each time! The 5th scattered as well, he failed to jink and I rolled a 2… The small troupe charges into the WK and promptly roll a 6 for one of the kiss of death to wound rolls, slaying it outright. The large troupe charges the 9 strong blood letters and between the troupe master and 3 shadow seers, wipe out the unit for no loss. The Solitaire charges into the farseer and reduces him to a fine red paste smeared across his jet bike.

The eldar retaliation is brutal. 2 of the serpents move up to within 8 inches of the large troupe while the other 2 serpents move to engage the small troupe and void weavers. The Crimson hunter does not arrive. The large troupe takes a hammering – I loose the entire unit to the 2 serpents save for the 3 shadow seers in the back of the unit after the consolidation move. I also loose the other troupe to the other 2 serpents despite some very lucky reroll 1 situations. The vindicare strips a hull point from a void weaver – shaking it.

Eldar KP – First Blood, slay the warlord, 7 KP (3 DJ, Star Weaver, 3x Troupe)
Harlequin KP – slay the warlord, 4KP (farseer, 2 WK, blood letters)

Turn 3
The harlequins are all but spent. The solitaire bounds out to get a charge on 1 of the serpents while the 3 shadow seers (now apart enough to be 3 units) line up on the other. The 2 star weavers stay central to the table with the aim to kill the vindicare. The void weavers and sky weavers line up at the other 2 serpents. In the psychic phase I managed to get off shrouding but fail vortex. Shooting sees me kill the vindicare and the 2 serpents engaged with 4 haywire cannons both damaged to 1 and 2 HP respectively – thanks to some ludicrous scatters again. The solitaire charges into the first serpent and wrecks it hard with 2 auto glance and then a 6 from his other hits. The 3 shadow seers absolutely destroy the other with a mass of S6 attacks. The avengers pile out.

The Eldar move the avengers around their wrecks to draw LOS on the seers. The 2 remaining serpents move, 1 to drop avengers out to target the bikes while the other moves and then goes flat out towards the objective in my deployment zone. The crimson hunter turns up and lines up on the void weavers. The 2 avenger units closest to the shadow seers kill 1 each leaving me with just the telepath alive. The bikes survive the other 5 avengers. The sole remaining serpent who can fire kills 2 of the sky weavers with ease. The crimson hunter does nothing but make the void weavers jink.

Eldar KP – First Blood, slay the warlord, 10 KP (3 DJ, 2 SS, 1 sky weavers, 1 Star Weaver, 3x Troupe)
Harlequin KP – slay the warlord, 7KP (1 farseer, 2 WK, 1 blood letters, 1 vindicare, 2 wave serpents)

Turn 4
The solitaire moves across the board looking to kill the next wave serpent while the 2 void weavers get a rare treat of being able to fire on the crimson hunter in the air and the rear gun firing at the rear armour of the fleeing serpent. The 2 star weavers move to the centre of the board in an effort to deny the CH space to move. The remaining sky weaver lines up a shot on the fleeing serpent. The remaining shadow seer casts psychic shriek and wipes out an avenger unit. He also fires his grenade launcher at the other unit but fails to do anything. The 2 star weavers miss the CH. The remaining sky weaver again scatters off the serpent and the 2 void weavers fail to do anything thanks to snap shots from jinking. The only solid part of the turn is again the solitaire manages a charge on a serpent but he fails this turn and leaves it on 1 HP. The seer charges the avengers and we both fail to do anything.

The eldar are now running out of steam as well but still in the fight. The 5 avengers near my shadow seer move up onto the closest objective and fire on him but only manage 1 wound after rerolls to my saves. The CH moves across the board thanks to vector dancer and shakes one of the star weavers. The almost dead wave serpent moves up to the back objective in my deployment zone, disembarks the 5 avengers then lines up on the void weavers. He kills one of them and the other is on 1 HP and snap shots only. The wounded serpent near the solitaire moves, disembarks the avengers close to the centre objective. They fail to harm the sky weavers but will be close enough next turn to contest the objective. The solitaire survives the serpents shooting with ease

Eldar KP – First Blood, slay the warlord, 10 KP (3 DJ, 2 SS, 1 sky weavers, 1 Star Weaver, 3x Troupe)
Harlequin KP – slay the warlord, 8KP (1 farseer, 2 WK, 1 blood letters, 1 vindicare, 2 wave serpents, 1 dire avengers)

Turn 5
The solitaire moves to finish off the serpent. The sole remaining void weaver manages a lucky 6 on the remaining serpent which is failed to jink and see’s it wrecked. The 2 star weavers target the CH and manage a pen which stuns it. The sole remaining sky weaver is left out of position as I had it lined up to support the void weaver. In the assault phase I forget to move the sky weaver (BOO!) while the solitaire kills the last serpent on 1 HP. The shadow seer fails in a massive way after failing to get any powers off he dies to over watch from the avengers he declares he will charge!

The eldar move to control objectives – he only had 3 avenger units left on the table and they move onto all 3 objectives with onl the central one being contested by my star weavers but even they he is ObSec and I am not. His crimson hunter, now stunned, moves 18” forward and is wrecked as he ends his move on my star weavers! The scatter does not harm anything as the plane crashes. On a whim, he fires just 3 dire avengers (all that is in range) at the solitaire. He hits with 4 of his 6 shots and wounds with all 4. 3++, rerolling 1’s – easy I think… I literally roll 2 on all 4 dice and the solitaire dies.

Eldar KP – First Blood, slay the warlord, 11 KP (3 DJ, 2 SS, 1 sky weavers, 1 Star Weaver, 3x Troupe, 1 solitaire)
Harlequin KP – slay the warlord, 11KP (1 farseer, 2 WK, 1 blood letters, 1 vindicare, 4 wave serpents, 1 dire avengers, 1 crimson hunter)

We roll to see if the game goes on. If It does, I think I have a good shot at pushing it to a draw at the least. I can target the avengers in my deployment zone with the void weaver and sky weaver (who is close enough to charge in turn 6) while the 2 star weavers (along with the rear gun on the void weaver) can kill at least 1 unit of avengers which should give me a 2-1 on objectives, deny him line breaker (I cant get line breaker myself as I would be out of position on objectives) and give me the win. Even going on to turn 7 at that point would see me win it.

Re roll for the game to end… a 2. Game over. Eldar win.

FINAL SCORE
Eldar – Line Breaker, First Blood, slay the warlord, 11 KP (3 DJ, 2 SS, 1 sky weavers, 1 Star Weaver, 3x Troupe, 1 solitaire), 3 Objectives
Harlequin KP – slay the warlord, 11KP (1 farseer, 2 WK, 1 blood letters, 1 vindicare, 4 wave serpents, 1 dire avengers, 1 crimson hunter)

Thoughts…

This was A LOT closer than I first expected. We joked at deployment he would table me by turn 3 and after turn 1 it looked possible. I had used my mirage launchers but almost everything those serpents pointed at died. Killing the 2 WK in 1 turn came as a shock to him – he expected to lose one to the large troupe on the charge but when it all but died to the psychic powers he knew he had ever extended his attack. The death of the other was a nice surprise and while it could not be done reliably, even not killing it would potentially have seen me kill it in his turn and then free to engage the serpents nearby. I actually hurt myself by killing it outright! The massive brain fart I had with the DJ just highlights how much you have to think with this army – losing all 3 to a single serpent shield was just bad play on my part. The solitaire was a machine, killing his way through anything I put in front of him. Losing him on the last turn to a poor dice roll sucked but could not be helped. The shadow seers are amazing – I deliberately went with all 3 using different disciplines to see what I would combo. Had I gotten sanctuary, hammer hand, invisibility or any of the other very solid powers available – that unit could have been all but unkillable. As it was, I got mediocre powers and saw average returns. They are amazing in combat though and they will be very useful against low AV targets like the rear armour on transports! The sky weavers never saw combat so the zephyr glaives were wasted and the haywire scatters were just awful. I think I would run them with just the haywire in future. The sky weavers are fantastic – everything I love about running venoms with the ability to engage light armour. The void weavers – they did ok. I always looked at the haywire cannon as opportunity and treated them as sky weavers with unusual fire arcs and that seemed to be ok. I would not bother wasting points on upgrading them as I think (barring my terrible scatters) the haywire is more reliable.

Re Roll 1’s – is it worth it? I am not sure… I did get good use out of it and it did save me a bunch – especially when I used the mirage launchers turn 1. The solitaire is also a machine – he shrugged off a wave serpent worth of fire like it was nothing! Without it he would have been dead!

I need to get more games with the harlequins before I make up my mind on the best config but I think the army can have legs as a standalone. It’s even more unforgiving than the dark eldar and even more surgical in its application on the table than them as well. I have some pics of the game (unfortunately using my dark eldar as stand ins for the vehicles and bikes) if anyone is interested.

Interested to hear how people have felt the DeathJesters have paid off. Would the equivalent amount of points in Shadowers have had more impact?

I think the best place for the DJ is actually with a cheap SS using veil of tears as a single unit. The VoT is the best range for the DJ to operate at and mitigates a lot of the issues they will have - as they want to hang back while the troupes charge.

The witch fires the SS has access too also synergise well with the range.

In my game they did nothing as I stuffed up big time...

So I have been running my Harlequins as a masque for an escalation league I've been in, and a couple days ago I tried ditching the Ceggy's Revenge formation for 2x CoP formations and 1x Falchu. I took the CoPs with 8x clowns plus characters and put them in raiders along with 2 venoms full of kabalites.

The numbers made a HUGE difference IMO for the troupes and the Skyweavers and even the Crapweaver was 100% better with the rerollable Jink just because my opponent didn't want to shoot it after the first time they evaded 6 wounds without a scratch.

Great report. This really highlights two points, 1) solitaire is a beast and 2) death jesters are an expensive easy to obtain kill point. When I first say the solitaire I was not impressed and thought there was no way he would ever be worth taking. But being only one model with lots of movement means he can easily hide behind walls or statues or pillars or whatever. When he touches a unit in close combat that unit disappears. He killed a farseer on a bike, making back most of his 145 points, then he goes on to kill two wave serpents. The death jesters were played wrong this game, no doubt about that. But even if they were played perfectly, what would they have done? They may have put one or two glances on a wave serpent. They might have done a wound to the WK, but he is fearless so no running. They would not have been able to touch the farseer. Really the game went no different with them as it would without which is a lot to say about 60pt models. Against other armies they are still not that great. 3 24'' s6 shots for 60pts is just pathetic. You are lucky to actually score a wound against most units and even if you do kill a model you have to cross your fingers they will fail the moral test. I would much rather take more shadow seers.

 lambsandlions wrote:
The death jesters were played wrong this game, no doubt about that. But even if they were played perfectly, what would they have done? They may have put one or two glances on a wave serpent. They might have done a wound to the WK, but he is fearless so no running. They would not have been able to touch the farseer. Really the game went no different with them as it would without which is a lot to say about 60pt models. Against other armies they are still not that great. 3 24'' s6 shots for 60pts is just pathetic. You are lucky to actually score a wound against most units and even if you do kill a model you have to cross your fingers they will fail the moral test. I would much rather take more shadow seers.

While I haven't played a game, this is my perspective after reading the codex.

Alluding to my previous question... What does everyone else think?

The death jesters have done SIGNIFICANT work for me. Against anything with a 4+ save, you will almost certainly cause a wound. Even shooting marines with two of them you will be causing an unsaved wound more than likely. A leadership 6 test is a pretty hard one to pass, and if you have other leadership debuff abilities scattered around those units will never want to be within 2 feet of the jesters, or 8 inches of ANY board edge. The death jester is best used as a board control piece against basic troops and he is good at that.

Last game I ran him in, he was infiltrated, killed one Necron immortal, and got me first blood. Losing 5 immortals because you lost one immortal due to shooting is not something you can really prepare for.

The only time I would take death jesters is in path of heros or cast of player where you are forced to take them. The revenge formation and the masque detachment are so similar that I would always take the masque detachment as 3 death jesters and skyweavers are just too large of a tax.

As an example to what I said. If he had singled out the 3 jesters, either the opponent would have wasted shots killing them all, or ignored them. If he had ignored them, then only one more waveserpent would have fired at something else. What lost him the match was objective secured, toughness 3 4+ save bodies on objectives/ scoring line breaker. Death jesters would have pushed them all over the map, they would have averaged a wound on the knights a turn, and could have put more rounds into the flyer if the need arose. That is a lot of options for 180 points, and anything besides the min squads of avengers would have been wasting points.

My $.02

I disagree on both Cegrevenge and the DJ. It is extremely easy to fail a morale test on a 6 or lower and the proper positioning of the Mask of Secrets will enable you to lower even LD10 infantry down into the danger zone. Despite people's apparent disdain for the skyweavers I've had nothing but success with shuriken and bola squads of three ( I've always brought blaster scourges for anti-heavy tank so haywire hasn't been a concern for me)

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
The death jesters have done SIGNIFICANT work for me. Against anything with a 4+ save, you will almost certainly cause a wound. Even shooting marines with two of them you will be causing an unsaved wound more than likely. A leadership 6 test is a pretty hard one to pass, and if you have other leadership debuff abilities scattered around those units will never want to be within 2 feet of the jesters, or 8 inches of ANY board edge. The death jester is best used as a board control piece against basic troops and he is good at that.

Last game I ran him in, he was infiltrated, killed one Necron immortal, and got me first blood. Losing 5 immortals because you lost one immortal due to shooting is not something you can really prepare for.

The problem I have with death jesters is the inconsistency. When they work, they will wipe out whole units at a time and seem amazing. But in most cases I think their shooting is ineffective for their points. Going back the the immortals. 5 immortals are 85 points and have t4, ld10 and sv3+ reanimation, you have are looking at doing an average of .46 wounds to them in shooting, so about half the time you will get a wound. If you get that wound their ld drops to 8 giving you a 27% chance for them to fail their leadership. This results in about a 1 in 8 chance that your death jester will cause them to flee, which is not very good odds. Now most necron lists are running minimal troops and loading up on spyders, scarabs and wraiths. All of which are fearless.

My point is, that the death jester is far too niche and situational. Don't get me wrong, I think that they could be a load of fun to play in a friendly game and they make huge swings that are fun to retell but they are not going to pull their weight the majority of the time.

 lambsandlions wrote:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
The death jesters have done SIGNIFICANT work for me. Against anything with a 4+ save, you will almost certainly cause a wound. Even shooting marines with two of them you will be causing an unsaved wound more than likely. A leadership 6 test is a pretty hard one to pass, and if you have other leadership debuff abilities scattered around those units will never want to be within 2 feet of the jesters, or 8 inches of ANY board edge. The death jester is best used as a board control piece against basic troops and he is good at that.

Last game I ran him in, he was infiltrated, killed one Necron immortal, and got me first blood. Losing 5 immortals because you lost one immortal due to shooting is not something you can really prepare for.

The problem I have with death jesters is the inconsistency. When they work, they will wipe out whole units at a time and seem amazing. But in most cases I think their shooting is ineffective for their points. Going back the the immortals. 5 immortals are 85 points and have t4, ld10 and sv3+ reanimation, you have are looking at doing an average of .46 wounds to them in shooting, so about half the time you will get a wound. If you get that wound their ld drops to 8 giving you a 27% chance for them to fail their leadership. This results in about a 1 in 8 chance that your death jester will cause them to flee, which is not very good odds. Now most necron lists are running minimal troops and loading up on spyders, scarabs and wraiths. All of which are fearless.

My point is, that the death jester is far too niche and situational. Don't get me wrong, I think that they could be a load of fun to play in a friendly game and they make huge swings that are fun to retell but they are not going to pull their weight the majority of the time.

That's why, if I wanted that unit of immortals to flee, I'd position a Nask of Secrets and fire two DJs at it.

Also, the necrons are one of the worst possible matchups for us. For the reasons you stated. But, you hit marines with him, or astra militarum, you will see dividends paid. They are situational, but they are also only 60 points...

lambsandlions wrote:The only time I would take death jesters is in path of heros or cast of player where you are forced to take them. The revenge formation and the masque detachment are so similar that I would always take the masque detachment as 3 death jesters and skyweavers are just too large of a tax.

Q.
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DJ's just aren't consistent enough for my tastes. Shadowseers on the other hand bring a warpcharge, fleshbane S6 attacks, and guaranteed veil. If I've got a choice, it's Shadowseers every time. Since I've got a DJ as I've been running Cast of Players, I'll stick him in a shooty unit if I have one. But I won't be taking more than one.

The biggest benefit for DJ's is that their ability works no matter the size of their target! They can run a 20 man blob of Necron warriors with the same chance they would a 10 man.

The meta right now is beyond serpent spam, your biggest competitors are extreme msu. The death jester is going to be the one you use to push jetbikes off of objectives, make scouts snapshot their sniper rifles, and whittle down lictors.

We have, in my opinion, the best army at taking these threats out, and has been shown, we actually can compete with eldar netlist level power on the table top. Death jesters have a definite role to play in that (get it, it's a little pun, kind of lame, but it's there)

 Dash2021 wrote:


DJ's just aren't consistent enough for my tastes. Shadowseers on the other hand bring a warpcharge, fleshbane S6 attacks, and guaranteed veil. If I've got a choice, it's Shadowseers every time. Since I've got a DJ as I've been running Cast of Players, I'll stick him in a shooty unit if I have one. But I won't be taking more than one.

When I first saw the shadowseer figured he was a psycker and wouldn't be much help in combat. Then you start to realize he has 5 attacks on the charge, they are s6 for wrecking vehicles and they are flesh bane for ruining monstrous creatures. Concussive is a bit of a joke considering harlequins are already faster than 90% of unites, so it only effects things with I6. But shadowseers are the reason kiss harlequins can wreck transports.

I think the main problem with DJs are that their is no real unit that wants them. We don't play gunline nor do our light and dark brethren. The closest thing you will find is a unit of dark reapers to put him in but his range is half of theirs. He just doesn't have a home.

Now with pics of the game!

Deployment



Turn 1



Turn 2



Bottom of 2



Bottom of 5

Nice looking board you got there. Thanks for posting the batrep!

Thanks for the pix! The death jesters would have done some serious damage in the later rounds if you had hidden them out of sight, no doubt in my mind.

I'm actually debating on running them as single model units in my game against the ultramarines. You are correct in that they don't really have a home in most units, so why try and shoehorn them in!

When I start adding in the corsairs, the jesters will be added to their basic troop units ( they start with las blasters like swooping hawks, you can fit 6 in their dedicated transport falcons, and can equip their own shuriken cannon) so they will actually bring some synergy to those units.

 lambsandlions wrote:

 Dash2021 wrote:


DJ's just aren't consistent enough for my tastes. Shadowseers on the other hand bring a warpcharge, fleshbane S6 attacks, and guaranteed veil. If I've got a choice, it's Shadowseers every time. Since I've got a DJ as I've been running Cast of Players, I'll stick him in a shooty unit if I have one. But I won't be taking more than one.

When I first saw the shadowseer figured he was a psycker and wouldn't be much help in combat. Then you start to realize he has 5 attacks on the charge, they are s6 for wrecking vehicles and they are flesh bane for ruining monstrous creatures. Concussive is a bit of a joke considering harlequins are already faster than 90% of unites, so it only effects things with I6. But shadowseers are the reason kiss harlequins can wreck transports.

I think the main problem with DJs are that their is no real unit that wants them. We don't play gunline nor do our light and dark brethren. The closest thing you will find is a unit of dark reapers to put him in but his range is half of theirs. He just doesn't have a home.

I think DJs have a place in DE armies. Either run them in a raider w/warriors, beasts or wyches. Warriors is point-click additional shooting, with the added benefit of moving your enemy periodically. Wyches use them to make a long charge shorter. Beasts same usage as wyches.

One of the biggest boons to DE that Harlies bring is sprinkling in HnR, and DJs do it fairly cheaply while also helping make your charges shorter. Still though, Shadowseers bring HnR too on top of protection and do it for the same price point. Other than the warriors, SS goes with the units above just as well and possibly better. I'd be surprised if SS+beast star isn't more of a thing in the near future: 12" movement +Veil means they can't even be shot at til they're well w/in charge range. Only problem is that they compete w/Razorwings for a FA slot. But then again, you do have 6 of those

But...the beasts do not make the Shadowseer move 12" do they??

No, DJs are not optimal and the only reSon to take them is when they are required. The question is, is the reroll from Cegrevenge worth it when without it you could have up to 6 Shadowseers? I say yes it is, if they are used intelligently.


Remember a couple tools:

1) leaving one in a Starweaver after the troupe has exited. Allows him to continue doing his work and being mobile and once the troupe is midfield the Starweaver is more a risk than a benefit for them.

2) where is your mask of secrets? Positioning the MOS can lead to much better LD test results


3) don't forget precision shooting-especially against sergeants! Remove the guy giving that squad LD8 instead of 7.

4) DJs lacking a good target can hide out of LOS and wait until the later game turns when that will become more useful for clearing obsc infantry off objectives.

5) a DJ paired with a SS particularly one who rolled good on Phantasmancy is a potent combo since that gives them the threat to take out a unit he had caused to flee towards them in cc, SS can bolster their defenses with many of the powers, SS can pick off sergeant types with Mirror of Minds and SS can run in the shooting phase to bring up Starmist Raiment or position for Mask of Secrets.

Except for the reasons I mentioned taking them for, there is no reason to take death jesters. The game is full of min sized scoring units claiming maelstrom style objectives and three death jesters roaming free are the perfect answer to that you don't have to kill them to get them out of position, the death jester just need to kill one.

If three shoot their shrieker amo at a conscript blob let's say, that blast puts a world of hurt on them, if you happen to get a 6 to hit, there goes a priest, plus about 3 of his buddies. Dealing with min units, without putting your squishy troupes in danger is exactly what this army needs to compete.

I kinda view the Death Jester as somewhat useless. I only take him because I feel a show needs him to be performing. But ultimately he hasnt done too much.

I feel in a pure Harlequin force built around speed and assault (even with allies) there arent many places for him to be that is optimal unless you put him alone in a transport.

For 60 points, he doesnt bring much to the table reliably. On paper he sounded very cool, but after a few games, he kinda doesnt seem to merge too well into the force yet.