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the_scotsman wrote:


It's so inexcusable that...look! In your codex! GW must have FAQed them to BS5 while you slept! Amazing!

Huh?

'Twas a joke about BS5, I assume.

I'm running between 3-4 shadowseers in a full army, or at minimum 1 (mask) along with a farseer. More seers certainly adds to the punch of the troupe with 5 Str6 fleshbane attacks on the charge, which certainly helps versus light vehicles / rear av10 things.

With more seers, you're able to split them into squads as needed for 1) more VoT, 2) redundancy and effectiveness, and most importantly 3) more chances at getting Fog, Laugh, or Mirror to actually use.

I ran Heroes Path for a while in most of my eldar based armies. Switching up to masque detachments, I like the flexibility of more shadowseers and better control of the psychic phase, especially within a unit where I can actually use VoT.

 Rypher wrote:
'Twas a joke about BS5, I assume.

I was hoping my book showing them at BS4 was a typo. lol...

BS 2 psychers ftw.

Gonna be assembling some troupes tomorrow
I'm thinking having one squad with a troupe master with a power sword/storied sword and 4 kisses on the rest for one squad, for mulching MEQ and anything else thats tough nearby
a troupe of all caresses for dealing with whatever is the toughest target
a troupe of 4 embraces and a caress on the master for larger squads

For the mulch squad, if it isn't already on your Solitaire you might consider the somewhat expensive arrangement of a Starmist/Rose Troupe master.

Starmist let's you survive overwatch with your vital HoW units, and Cegorach's rose is the only mass-combat weapon the harlequins have that scales with number of attacks.

the_scotsman wrote:
For the mulch squad, if it isn't already on your Solitaire you might consider the somewhat expensive arrangement of a Starmist/Rose Troupe master.

Starmist let's you survive overwatch with your vital HoW units, and Cegorach's rose is the only mass-combat weapon the harlequins have that scales with number of attacks.

Couple of things here...

Starmist does nothing for the solitaire (implied by you but it could just be how you have written it)
Harlequin characters can only take a single relic each so you can't put both on a single model
The rose is rubbish compared to the caress on a troupe master and twice as expensive
The rose is rubbish on the solitaire since you are giving up the caress attacks (depending on how you play 2 CCW)

I'm not sure how the Rose scales with attacks.

It's definitely not rubbish on the solitaire though because it gives up only one caress attack.

I would never, ever give my Troupe Master a Caress. More often than not your troupe master is going to be caught in a challenge either by your design or your opponents. In this case, you don't want to be rolling your 4/5 dice looking for that 6 because if it doesn't arrive your attacks will more than likely bounce off the enemies power armour. But if you have the Rose you get one attack that hits on 3's with a re-roll that wounds on 2's with a re-roll. That to me sounds MUCH more reliable then preying for that 6.

For the record, I play that the Kiss works along side the Caress. It just seems to be the intention of the rule to me.

mercury14 wrote:I'm not sure how the Rose scales with attacks.

It's definitely not rubbish on the solitaire though because it gives up only one caress attack.

That depends on how you play it. You can read it 2 ways and one of those two gives up all the caress attacks for the rose attacks

ALEXisAWESOME wrote:I would never, ever give my Troupe Master a Caress. More often than not your troupe master is going to be caught in a challenge either by your design or your opponents. In this case, you don't want to be rolling your 4/5 dice looking for that 6 because if it doesn't arrive your attacks will more than likely bounce off the enemies power armour. But if you have the Rose you get one attack that hits on 3's with a re-roll that wounds on 2's with a re-roll. That to me sounds MUCH more reliable then preying for that 6.

For the record, I play that the Kiss works along side the Caress. It just seems to be the intention of the rule to me.

I have never had anyone want to be in a challenge with my troupe master unless they are sure they can win. A single wound is nice and all but his other attacks are limp at the target. With his volume of attacks, a single ap2 wound is very likely (maybe even on par with the KoD attack) but he is cheaper and potentially more effective against more targets.

So given you would never ever give one a caress - what do you think is best? 3 troupes as part of a masque - what do the masters get?

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
I would never, ever give my Troupe Master a Caress. More often than not your troupe master is going to be caught in a challenge either by your design or your opponents. In this case, you don't want to be rolling your 4/5 dice looking for that 6 because if it doesn't arrive your attacks will more than likely bounce off the enemies power armour. But if you have the Rose you get one attack that hits on 3's with a re-roll that wounds on 2's with a re-roll. That to me sounds MUCH more reliable then preying for that 6.

For the record, I play that the Kiss works along side the Caress. It just seems to be the intention of the rule to me.

The Caress is good in a challange I find. usually gets a 6 roll and kills the enemy. I also find that most sergeants don't have much melee capability, since most armies I face are kitted for ranged damage though, so YMMV

But rose doesn't give shred for your s6 attack - it's just shred for it's regular attacks.

Harlequins don't like being attacked back, so it makes sense to challenge their sergeant whenever possible to minimise return attacks as they usually have at least 1 attack more. 4/5 dice simply aren't enough to be assured of that 6 to hit on the other hand the rose is very, very reliable at getting that one wound, which in most cases is enough to kill a non-invul sv champ.

For troupe masters I'm a fan of kiss and starmist on warlord, power sword/storied sword on caress squad (some assured ap goes. Long way) and the rose in the third.

You have more chances to get a 6 on a hit with your 5 attacks rather than to hit on a 4+/3+ and than roll to-wound.

Just realized half my caresses look like their running over to give someone a hug. Friendly Space Clowns!

 Massaen wrote:


That depends on how you play it. You can read it 2 ways and one of those two gives up all the caress attacks for the rose attacks.

That's a terrible misreading of the rule. It clearly states that whenever a model is *equipped* with a kiss/rose then one of its attacks is a S6 AP2 ID/6 attack. The trigger is being equipped with it, not attacking with it.

If you want the Rose's rerolls you have to give up the Caress attacks, since toy are using some of the otger special rules. You could keep the S6 attack with the Caress atacks, but the Solitaire already has a Kiss for that.

 koooaei wrote:
You have more chances to get a 6 on a hit with your 5 attacks rather than to hit on a 4+/3+ and than roll to-wound.

Maybe with the normal Kiss, and I could understand an argument for a Caress over a Kiss. But the Rose is a very different animal. Your troupe master is Ws 6, he will be hitting on 3's in the vast majority of times. The Rose has Master-Crafted, so that crucial attack is re-rollable. It is str 6 so wounds on 2's most of the time with Shred. Also in following turns the Caress dips in power with the loss of the charge attack, a similar notion for Multi-charges.

The Rose scales with attacks because it grants Master Crafted and Shred.... So all your attacks reroll to wound and one can reroll to hit. Unless I'm interpreting the Kiss wrong, which is as a CCW that grants you one S6AP2 attack in addition to your other attacks.

Fair point on the Starmist though. I usually run Starmist/Power Sword because my Rose is on the Solitaire (so I can choose to either Caress or Shred with his normal attacks)

Keep in mind the suggestion was with mass combat in mind. Vs a light squad you want to be charging with embraces, usually you want to have the one, really reliable attack to whack the sarge, then the rest of the wounds can just roll over to the squad, and with Shred and MC you'll have more raw wounds and hopefully won't care about armor saves because you charged Guardsmen or Ork Boyz or something with your embraces.

If you have to give up Starmist though....things do get trickier. I think it might opt for Starmist/Kiss on the TM then. The kiss can reliably demolish a sergeant and Starmist keeps the squad alive thru overwatch.

the_scotsman wrote:
The Rose scales with attacks because it grants Master Crafted and Shred.... So all your attacks reroll to wound and one can reroll to hit. Unless I'm interpreting the Kiss wrong, which is as a CCW that grants you one S6AP2 attack in addition to your other attacks.

The S6 AP2 attack replaces one of your attacks, it's not in addition to what you already have. But I agree that Master Crafted and Shred confer to the Rose's Kiss of Death attack. Shred is over the entire weapon's attacks. In contrast, the ID on a 6 only applies to the Kiss of Death attack because ID is included in the write-up for Kiss of Death, not for the weapon in its entirety.

Yep. It's not the most points-efficient mass combat weapon ever but it's pretty solid for the specific use that a TM has when attached to an anti-GEQ type troupe.

The TM can either be defensive with the Starmist in which case either a kiss or embrace works just fine, or he can go duelist with a Psword, Rose, or Storied Sword. Id never take the storied sword, and I think the Rose edges out the Psword for this type of unit.

How you equip your Troupe Masters is dependent on what role you envision it playing and in what detachment/formation you have for it. If you're fielding any of the Harlequin formations that allow Run & Charge, or if you're doing a Masque Detachment, you are best served naming one of your Troupe Masters the Warlord and equipping him with the Starmist Raiment. Every turn that unit should be Running, and equipping it or the rest of its Troupe with anything beyond the default Shuriken Pistols is a waste of points. The exception to this is if you have your Troupes in transports. Only then would it be acceptable to equip your Warlord Troupe Master with something other than a Starmist Raiment from the Relic options.

As for the remainder of your Troupe Masters, the next best Relic is Cegorach's Rose. Shred on anything is huge, but especially so on a model that is S3. Any extra advantage you can get for the predominant T4+ you're going to face is one to take, and the price point for it is fantastic. The Storied Sword is pricey, a bit too pricey for the +1S and one reroll To Hit. Useful on the charge, though, as you'll cut through MEqs decently enough.

While there have been some complaints about Caresses on Troupe Masters, I find them to be worthwhile. Consider a default situation of a bare TM on the charge. Both TMs have five attacks on the charge. A bare TM needs to roll all of its successful Hits in order to generate Wounds. A Caress TM doesn't have to roll 1/4 of its Hits at all. What's more, that 1/4 count of Hits will glance a vehicle regardless the rear AV. Neither a bare TM nor a Kiss TM can get that (Kisses do nothing vs AV13+). While it's dependent on dice rolls, so too are any other attack you generate. You just skip a roll with a Caress you would otherwise need to make with other options (or no option at all).

mercury14 wrote:

 Massaen wrote:


That depends on how you play it. You can read it 2 ways and one of those two gives up all the caress attacks for the rose attacks.

That's a terrible misreading of the rule. It clearly states that whenever a model is *equipped* with a kiss/rose then one of its attacks is a S6 AP2 ID/6 attack. The trigger is being equipped with it, not attacking with it.

I agree with you that you can definitely read it that way. The problem is that equiped is never defined in the brb and as such, we rely on the 2 special CCW rules to see what we can do.

Clearly GW intended (at least IMO) for the weapon to be used alongside the caress as we have a solitaire armed this way - the problem with that argument is the succubus from the DE range has an architect glaive and agoniser on the model and you can't use them together.

With no FAQ on the matter, and no firm basis in RAW for using it as a pair or not, I tend to explain it to my opponent and then play it as discussed.

When you have to rely on an interpretation of a single word to make it happen the way you like, it feels like you are fishing for a loop hole.

There are also plenty of items that cease to work they way they are intended if you must use them rather than just being equipped (SW dread shields save, eldrads staff, yriels spear...)

My point is having an adult conversation about it rather than simply telling someone that they are terrible at reading leads to both parties satisfied

Wasn't the DE Dex faqed to allow the Succubus to take both those weapons?
With the recent faq "updates" I think I read that as a change in the de one. Could be wrong.

Had a game with my harlequins against a tau player practicing for a tournament
Rand Cegorachs Revenge despite it being less awesome than masque + another harlequins formation, but it was consolidated
Solitaire with Cegorachs Rose
3X death jeasters
2X shadow seers ML2
shadowseer with mask of secrets and ML2
troupe with 5Xcaresses and Starmist thingy on the master who was my warlord
troupe with storied sword on master and 4 kisses
troupe with 4 embraces and caress on master
2X 6 bike skyweaver squads with glaives and shuriken cannons
solo void weaver with prismatic cannon

I ran one SS in each troupe, with the Mask of Secrets SS with the warlord.

this game taught me how awesome the Death Jester/Mask of Secrets combo is, and how amazing the Mask of Secrets is for any morale checks overall. The warlord's unit was amazing, killing off a riptide and a bunch of firewarriors. The Skyweavers did ok, but didn't make their points back.

The greatest moment was the turn after his farsight deepstruck into my back lines and was immediately wiped by my warlords unit and some skyweavers. it was beautiful.

Sadly I lost from points, but it was fun and I found that Veil of Tears is the best power IN THE UNIVERSE. Any long range firepower? lolnope

 Massaen wrote:

I agree with you that you can definitely read it that way. The problem is that equiped is never defined in the brb and as such, we rely on the 2 special CCW rules to see what we can do.

The word 'equip' means to dress with or array. I don't see why GW would need to make a rule defining that word in this situation. It seems clear to me that a harlequin is dressed./arrayed/equipped with a kiss when it has a kiss.

StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds wrote:


Sadly I lost from points, but it was fun and I found that Veil of Tears is the best power IN THE UNIVERSE. Any long range firepower? lolnope

I seldom use Veil. It seems like whenever I make one unit un-shootable my opponent can just shoot another unit instead. There's no net gain...

I cannot think of any other weapon that works when not selected.
A model with two CCWs selects one, and only that weapon has any effect.
Anything that would work in a way you suggest would by an item, like the Wave Serpent's shield weapon. It is an item with a weapon stat-line, not a weapon that also has other effects.

But:
"A model equipped with a Harlequin’s Embrace has the Hammer of Wrath special rule ...".
This is very similar to:
"When a model equipped with a Harlequin’s Kiss makes its close combat attacks, ..."

If the veil can block LOS to the other target, it does more than just protect the Seer's unit.

I theory, the 3 examples I supplied earlier all have effects that are tied to the weapon rules and as such don't function unless they are used in combat.

Eldrads staff can't harness extra charges as its used in combat but the rule requires it to be the psychic phase

Yriels cursed rule only applies if he is using his spear (so not in shooting or if he uses his eye attack or haywire grenades)

The SW dreads shield only functions in combat if you use it to attack rather than the axe and at no other time

All of these items simply do not work as intended if you stick to the whole - have to be used to get the rules attached to the weapon

mercury14 wrote:

StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds wrote:


Sadly I lost from points, but it was fun and I found that Veil of Tears is the best power IN THE UNIVERSE. Any long range firepower? lolnope

I seldom use Veil. It seems like whenever I make one unit un-shootable my opponent can just shoot another unit instead. There's no net gain...

No net gain? It keeps one squad, potentially your most expensive, safe from any long range fire. That is really really good, even if they target something else

There is a previous euling from GW where the dreadknight greatsword could give rerolls to its hammer simply because it was equipped and had similar wording. Unfortunately, that FAQ is in the void.