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That harlequin list is illegal or at the very least unbound - as its written there anyway.

I assume some of the starweavers are actually FA choices?

How many points is the list?

mercury14 wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

You said he stole on you, meaning he had two shooting phases to destroy only 3 of your transports? That's some miserable luck.

It count have been much worse. Turn one I lost two transports, my Shadowseer, and had a Troupe get shot up a bit. The Scatbikes rolled poorly (and one moved flat out to grab an objective), it was the Reapers that were killing stuff. He deployed his Spiders on the map but held them back.

Turn two half his scatbike units were dead, the other two were snap firing, and since my army had already arrived, he chose to have his spiders shoot Troupes on foot. He also made the decision to shoot some stuff at the solitaire but to no effect.

That doesn't make any sense. Nothing in your army was capable of killing anything in your turn 1 by your previous description of how your turn transpired.

 Massaen wrote:
That harlequin list is illegal or at the very least unbound - as its written there anyway.

I assume some of the starweavers are actually FA choices?

How many points is the list?

It says it is 2 Masques (one with 3xTroop, 1x FA and 1x HS and another with 3xTroop and 1x HS) and Heroes.
It looks legal.
There is no HQ option needed in the Masque version of the CAD.
I get points to 1859, so I assume a 1875 with a couple of grenades forgotten.

The Masque requires 2 FA choices each

I missed that bit.
Take 2 of the Starweavers of the first Masque as FA not DT, and the Skyweavers in the other list.
So you are right. As written, it is not legal.

I assumed he had bought the starweavers as DT and just listed them wrong

New tactics I have not seen discussed yet with Freakshow lists and Harlequins but I have a found a way to bypass ATSKNF and wipe entire deathstars with a well coordinated strike.

Requirement:
Death Jesters
A squad of Harlies with a Shadowseer with a Mask of Secrets.
Add an Archon with Armor of misery for extra safety.

Opposing Deathstar must not be fearless. (It happens, people rely on ATSKNF alot).

By now I can see you rolling your eyes at what this guy is thinking and it's allright but I ran it by two other guys and one TO who after reading the same thing came to the same conclusion. I am fairly sure of myself with this.

Step 1: Inflict a casualty on a unit with a Death Jester.
This will cause an LD test at -2 and possibly -4 or -6 depending on the proximity of the other squad members.

Step 2: Cause the Deathstar to flee towards the squad during the shooting phase.

Step 3: Assault the fleeing deathstar.
A fleeing unit has no overwatch.
A fleeing unit being charged must make an LD Test (At -4 because of the Shadowseer and Archon).

If it succeeds, fight as normal.
If it fails, the unit is destroyed.

Now...ATSKNF mentions the unit cannot be sweeped at the END of the assault phase but the LD test for the unit's destruction happens BEFORE any blows are struck.

ATSKNF specifically mentions Sweeping Advance and staying locked in combat but DOES NOT MENTION ANYTHING ELSE.

ATSKNF means you rally automatically at the beginning of the Marine's turn not during your turn so the unit is considered as fleeing just like fleeing SM within 3" of an objective cannot claim or contest while they flee.

This is just one more trick up the Laughing God's sleeve against the servants of the Emperor and honestly against anyone else. Want to to wipe a unit and bypass the assault phase? Time yourself right, positioning is the key.

Conclusion:

- I know it is not a reliable tactic to build an army around BUT many Harlequin armies use the Mask of secrets, have Death Jesters and just throwing an Archon in there is not a stretch. It is nice if you can pull it off or bait the other deathstar in a trap but fight as you usually do but remember the trick.

- I do not caution using this for a friendly game. It's a dick move.

- If you pull that during a tournament, you will probably need to call the judge over so make sure to bookmark the page for ATSKNF and charging a fleeing unit.

Thoughts?

ATSKNF states the unit automatically passes Regroup tests. When assaulting a unit that is Falling Back, the unit must always test to Regroup as soon as the enemy charges.

ATSKNF will kick in immediately and then you've just given the deathstar free movement not only towards you, but also munching through a unit you've invested a lot of LD debuffs into, then consolidating a futher d6" closer, not counting any pile ins.

it would be better to use that -4 LD to shriek them a couple times

 Massaen wrote:
That harlequin list is illegal or at the very least unbound - as its written there anyway.

I assume some of the starweavers are actually FA choices?

How many points is the list?

It's legal, I just listed the Weavers under Troupes for organizational sake. Technically they're listed wrong, however it's much easier to read this way. In the Army Builder handout I give to my opponents they're listed the correct way or course.

 Skinnereal wrote:

I get points to 1859, so I assume a 1875 with a couple of grenades forgotten.

No, you're right. I didn't have my list in front of me when I was posting (and still don't), the +9 pts is from a couple minor difference in the troupes, probably in Troupe #3 in the second masque. But you get the gist of the list I take it.

 Erik_Morkai wrote:
New tactics I have not seen discussed yet with Freakshow lists and Harlequins but I have a found a way to bypass ATSKNF and wipe entire deathstars with a well coordinated strike.

Awesome.

 Rypher wrote:
ATSKNF states the unit automatically passes Regroup tests. When assaulting a unit that is Falling Back, the unit must always test to Regroup as soon as the enemy charges.

ATSKNF will kick in immediately and then you've just given the deathstar free movement not only towards you, but also munching through a unit you've invested a lot of LD debuffs into, then consolidating a futher d6" closer, not counting any pile ins.

I see the part about the regrouping in the charging a fleeing unit, my confusion came from the wording used that the unit charged performs a normal LD test (Characteristics check) not a morale/regroup check which are two different things.

 Rypher wrote:
ATSKNF states the unit automatically passes Regroup tests. When assaulting a unit that is Falling Back, the unit must always test to Regroup as soon as the enemy charges.

ATSKNF will kick in immediately and then you've just given the deathstar free movement not only towards you, but also munching through a unit you've invested a lot of LD debuffs into, then consolidating a futher d6" closer, not counting any pile ins.

This is unfortunately totally right and also...kinda obvious. It's right after the section called "regrouping" and it's a section called "regrouping when assaulted"

And They Shall Obey No Rules says "automatically passes regroup tests." So they auto pass it unfortunately.

Agreed re: ATSKNF allowing the unit to auto-regroup before you charge. Experienced this myself when going up against Long Fangs I managed to succeed with a failed Morale Check from DJ fire.

But here's a different tactic with Harlequins I was able to execute against Space Wolves. I field a Masque as my Primary Detachment with one DJ (could have more but based on what I put together had room for only one). I include an Eldar Shadow Spectre Shrine formation that has the one Exarch in it. With DS I get the Exarch's unit to arrive close to a primary target of interest, usually those pesky Dev Squads, Long Fangs and the like. If they don't arrive close enough a good Battle Focus roll usually gets them in 12" range of my desired target. The Exarch has a built-in rule that forces all Morale and Pinning checks to be made with 3d6 and keeping the highest two values. Coupled with the DJ's -2Ld penalty you improve your chances of a failure without having to orient too many other Ld bomb units in proximity of the targeted unit, especially since the Exarch's power works at a range of 12" to the unit, not to models within 12" (unlike Mask of Secrets). As mentioned above, I was able to make the Long Fangs fail Morale and run towards my Warlord Troupe, enabling that unit to get out from the middle of the board, charge the Long Fangs in a ruin terrain, wipe them out with Embrace HoW damage and consolidate safely within the ruin.

Besides granting the alternative Ld bomb option, the Shadow Spectres did a tremendous job singling out mech targets with combinations of Haywire fire (cannon and solo grenade lobs) and Prismatic Rifle Lance fire, then Thrust Moving away on 3d6-keep-highest-two to safer positions on the board. They really freed up my Masque to focus on non-vehicle targets and really screw with the opponent's target prioritization.

Sorry to go a bit off topic but how have you found Shadow Spectres?

so I'm getting some DEldar to be allies for my Harlequins and I have a question
Is there any reason to ever run Lelith when a Solitaire is available?

Even without the solitaire there is no reason to run her!

Here's my tournament report over on FLG.

https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2016/03/11/playing-an-all-harlequin-list-in-a-gt-reflections-on-the-laughing-gods-place-in-competitive-play/

pm713 wrote:
Sorry to go a bit off topic but how have you found Shadow Spectres?

With only one game under my belt I found them to be very strong, particularly in the formation. Their mobility is incredible and is an excellent complement to a Harlequin force's quickness. I had two three-man squads and the Exarch's squad with four. I will definitely field them as a larger unit in an Eldar force, but as the only way to do that with Harlequins is to field two other aspects in an Aspect Host formation the Shadow Spectre Shrine was a better option for me. They only took up 280pts in my list, leaving plenty of room for a substantial Harlequin contingent.

I'm not sure how they'll be received against a force with less mechanized units in it such as Daemons. They aren't Fearless, though, so the Exarch's power works on them, something that can pay off huge dividends when resolving Daemonic Instability rolls. Forcing the opponent to roll 3d6 and keep the highest two dice after getting smacked around in close combat by our deadly Troupes can certainly improve the chances of Blinking Out at best and losing 4-6 models on average. Tau have very little in the way of mechanized units in typical lists I've seen--at least compared to other armies--but are extremely susceptible to Ld bombs in the Psychic, Shooting and Assault. Shadowseer Pinning checks, DJ shenanigans, Psychic Shriek if you so desire, and Fear tests would all come into play against them. Same goes for Eldar, though they have some units that auto-pass these tests (Warp Spiders, Wraith constructs) and others that get to reroll failed tests (Aspect Host, Dire Avenger Shrine), so it's not as effective as one would like. In this situation I don't see the true efficacy of Shadow Spectres coming into play.

Thank you that's quite helpful.

Thought I might brainstorm here to see what people can suggest...

I have a 1500 point event in about 4 weeks time. Max 3 detachments and max 1 LoW. I want to run harlequins as at least 1 of those detachments. I can also run pretty much whatever I feel like for allies from Eldar/Dark Eldar since I have more than enough of a collection to field what ever might be suggested.

The Harlequins available are as follows...

Solitaire
3 Shadow Seers (could stretch to 6 if need be thanks to RT models)
3 Death jesters (could stretch to 6 if need be thanks to RT models)
3 Star Weavers
4 Sky Weavers with glaive and haywire
1 void weaver (either gun available)
2 troupes of the following - master with caress, 1 caress, 1 embrace, 3 kiss (current plastics)
1 troupe of the following - master with sword, 2 kiss/fusion, 3 kiss, 2 naked (metal troupe from 4th ed)

Obviously I could run a revenge or Masque or a couple of the formations (Heroes Path plus Jest for example) but I am thinking since the event is going to see knights, deathstars and so on, I need to add some helpers for the clowns...

Advice from my fellow webway wanderers?

In a larger event with little to no playtesting time, run with the Heroes. It's a quick slot and fills your harlequin needs.

If you do have time to play more, why not try a masque + eldar? An inferno knight will help a lot in terms of vehicle killing, flyer defense (6-10 str8 ap1 melta shots will hurt any flyer, especially when guided).
I'm a fan of 2 caress units and an embrace unit, for lots of wounds to be spread around to "safe" assault units.

Lastly, I'm still trying a skyweaver unit with a few farseers (3-4). Not sure how well it will hold up, but it seems decent especially in nova formats.

My harlequin troupes are run with one 5 man unit with all caresses, warlord is the troupe master here witht he Starmist relic
two 8 man troupes with 3 embraces and 4 kisses, one master with a caress the other with storied sword/power sword

 Rypher wrote:

Lastly, I'm still trying a skyweaver unit with a few farseers (3-4). Not sure how well it will hold up, but it seems decent especially in nova formats.

It is really funny you mentioned that. I am building up my harlequins now for a painting project and to allie with my Eldar.

The 1850 list that Came up with is.. interesting, but mainly I was trying to run a farseer, skyweaver star.

(2) CADS:
4x Farseer Windriders
4x3 Scat bikes

Masque:
3x6 Troupe, Skyweaver
x6 Skyweavers, zephyr glaives
Voidweaver


Doing some maths... If i can get hammerhand on the skyweavers, against a 5++ WK, they will deal 4 wounds. So if I get prescience off or doom, or any other partial reroll, they can averagely down a WK on the charge, which i feel is important.

The main thing that I am negatively thinking is I only have a base 12 psychic dice. Most successful seer stars have ~20 base. So That makes me a little unsure how it will do... what do you think?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Otherwise, what I have been doing which has been fairly successful, is running a more complete Eldar list with 2 Farseers, and allying in Falchiu's Blade. Having a Seer per skyweaver squad. Gives me two hard hitting melee units. and the benefit of they already get a reroll jink save from the formation which is great with "shrouded".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

mercury14 wrote:
Here's my tournament report over on FLG.

https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2016/03/11/playing-an-all-harlequin-list-in-a-gt-reflections-on-the-laughing-gods-place-in-competitive-play/

Awesome report mate! That actually brought back my fire to build up my harlequins =D Finished my solataire yesterday finally, after like a year

mercury14 wrote:
Here's my tournament report over on FLG.

https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2016/03/11/playing-an-all-harlequin-list-in-a-gt-reflections-on-the-laughing-gods-place-in-competitive-play/

Very nice!

Any thoughts on possible changes after the tournament?

After some testing, I'm not happy with the skyweavers damage output. Yes, they are a good melee unit, but nothing to write home about.

Your 4 farseers will do just fine. Hammerhand is great on the weavers, but like I said, they just don't have consistent damage output. They need too much investment into making them a strong star.

In order to do better against more threats, I'm opting for a single farseer, jetbikes, warp hunter, and an inferno wraithknight. They give me reliable tank killing power, super heavy killing, and threaten fliers. This is all backed up by a masque with 2 embrace troupes, caress troupe, and a solitaire.

 Rypher wrote:
After some testing, I'm not happy with the skyweavers damage output. Yes, they are a good melee unit, but nothing to write home about.

Your 4 farseers will do just fine. Hammerhand is great on the weavers, but like I said, they just don't have consistent damage output. They need too much investment into making them a strong star.

In order to do better against more threats, I'm opting for a single farseer, jetbikes, warp hunter, and an inferno wraithknight. They give me reliable tank killing power, super heavy killing, and threaten fliers. This is all backed up by a masque with 2 embrace troupes, caress troupe, and a solitaire.

How many bikes were you running in the squad? Can you expand on some of the fights that you expected better performance then what happened? Thanks

I had two lists using a 5 strong and 6 strong skyweaver unit. On the charge, they are devastating, taking down a riptide, necron warriors, TEQs, etc. The problem is that after their initial charge, they are left in the open and able to be counter charged.

With so many points invested in them, you have built your army to have them do the bulk of the lifting in terms of killing power and whatnot. Against the riptide wing + decurion necrons, I got counter charged by wraiths after killing and locking up the tides. Even with invisibility (which isn't guaranteed), I took casualties. I wound up failing hit & run, but that's anecdotal at best.

The main problem is that against things that don't care about Str5 ap2, the weavers fall flat. Hard. Yes, they will murder TEQ, riptides, etc. I would not send them after any gargantuans or iknights, as the losses from stomp will hurt too much. The second round of combat for them also just kills any hope. Going from 5/2 down to 3/3 and from 4 attacks to 3 attacks is just meh. Most of the time, they charge and kill something, then sit around for a turn. It's not like they are fleshbane and wound everything always. If they had an extra attack, it might help, but they still fall flat in terms of what they want to assault and what they actually can. So then we have to consider their shooting vs assault damage.

Their shuriken cannon damage is nice, but not spectacular. We're spoiled in the meta with scatter laser jetbikes. For comparison, a unit of 3 eldar jetbikes will shoot 12 shots at 36". A unit of 4 skyweavers will shoot 12 shots at 24". I can get 3 units of scatter bikes for the same price (+3 points) as a unit of 4 skyweavers. When you're already taking eldar allies, they shoot better than our quins.

Lastly, while they are 2 wounds with a 5++ (great!), they're only a 4+ normal save. I usually have to tank with the farseers, get shrouding, fortune, or invisibility up to even consider them living long enough, especially as a deathstar. If anything is able to get around their buffs, they fall over quite quickly. A 3+ save would make me reconsider them, as that is then much more resilient.


Overall, they are a great harassment unit. Send two of them with glaives to murder backfields, pick on over exposed units, or just be another fast unit that can overwhelm your opponent. But as a deathstar? Not really, sadly.

 Rypher wrote:

Going from 5/2 down to 3/3 and from 4 attacks to 3 attacks is just meh.

Great info thanks for writing that up! Just wanted to make sure here.. you were playing them as +1S from the glaives right? So they should be 6/2 and 4/3 respectively because of that plus furious charge? Maybe I am mistaken?

I have a couple games next week that hopefully I will have enough things built to try a few different combinations.

One of my lists instead is just a masque
3x Troupe + Starweaver (using 2 FA for the transports)
+
Seer Council
+
Eldar CAD

Glaives are only +1 strength when they charge. Base strength 3 + 1 for furious + 1 for glaives makes them 5/2 on a charge, 3/3 otherwise.

They're still a fun unit and gorgeous models, but again, not enough for a star. Regular seer council is better, sadly.

 Rypher wrote:
Glaives are only +1 strength when they charge. Base strength 3 + 1 for furious + 1 for glaives makes them 5/2 on a charge, 3/3 otherwise.

They're still a fun unit and gorgeous models, but again, not enough for a star. Regular seer council is better, sadly.

Oh my mistake.. I thought they were s4 base because of the bike upgrade. Interesting.. wow OK. Even that simple change would make them another animal!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So here is a question that I know has been debated for other things.

Rising crescendo. If I join an IC farseer to a troupe, that unit still has fleet, so would the seer also be able to run and charge with the rest of the unit?