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Standard for old Whip Coils was 3 to a unit, which let you kill a few members of a unit before they could strike back, and was very handy for slowing down single targets such as monstrous creatures.
New Whip Coils are given to the whole unit as standard, and let them strike before 90% of things, at the same time as a few things and behind... Some Eldar and Daemons, I guess?
I'd say the situations where it's an improvement outweigh the handful of situations where it isn't.
The reduced cost is entirely offset by the fact that everyone needs one now, instead of one in three though.
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
Necrons had all of the cheese removed, and the Las Vegas Open 2015 results show this now that the first two day results are out. The highest ranking Necron player came in at 26th place...no where near the top 8.
Durability is great but it does not win games on its own. A poster upthread mentioned that Necrons will be really strong in casual games, but due to the lack of spammable cheese and real teeth will not dominate on the competitive scene, and I agree with this sentiment.
I actually love the new codex. Now there is mostly good internal balance so I can bring much more of my toys to the battlefield than before. A great thematic army that is very forgiving, but hardly OP.
the_hanged_man wrote: Necrons had all of the cheese removed, and the Las Vegas Open 2015 results show this now that the first two day results are out. The highest ranking Necron player came in at 26th place...no where near the top 8.
Durability is great but it does not win games on its own. A poster upthread mentioned that Necrons will be really strong in casual games, but due to the lack of spammable cheese and real teeth will not dominate on the competitive scene, and I agree with this sentiment.
I actually love the new codex. Now there is mostly good internal balance so I can bring much more of my toys to the battlefield than before. A great thematic army that is very forgiving, but hardly OP.
Indeed. The Necron units are some of the best in the game, point by point, but if you look at the LVO top10 armies, almost every army is either 'carried' by FMCs, Knights or Wave Serpents. That said, if an army with 50 Space Marine Scouts or Orks Green Tide can get top10, Necrons certainly should be able to. In this case I'd go as far as saying the best players weren't playing Necrons at the LVO, and if they had, there'd be multiple Necron armies in the top10.
In my opinion the only really noticeable absence in the results is that there's just one Tau army in the top33, and even that is piloted by a guy who always does really well.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/02/22 14:08:42
the_hanged_man wrote: Necrons had all of the cheese removed, and the Las Vegas Open 2015 results show this now that the first two day results are out. The highest ranking Necron player came in at 26th place...no where near the top 8.
Ugh... I knew it was gonna happen. I wanted to think people on here were smarter than this, but I KNEW in my soul it would happen.
That because some guy didn't put together, paint, and practice with a new necron army and then travel to Las Vegas with it mere weeks after the book came out and then go on to win flawlessly round after round against other extremely competitive lists, that there would be people that would take it as gospel proof that they are perfectly fine.
I'm gonna put everything that's wrong with that line of thought here and just come back to quote it when I need to.
First up: do you even know if anyone played 7crons? Are you sure they didn't play wardcrons, since that was allowed? Do you have their lists? Do you know those players to be amazing generals? Do you know what dice rolls went against the odds in their games? Do you know if they got tossed into a bad matchup for their list?
Maybe some cron players came up with good 7cron lists and didn't want to travel across the country, or didn't have that weekend free, or couldn't finish painting/modeling/buying their list in time so they brought something else? Maybe they weren't sure how good the army was and decided to go with a "safer" choice, possibly due to not enough time to both make the army AND practice with it sufficiently. Maybe they went with lists they thought were good, but haven't done enough testing to really optimize them yet?
Also 26th out of several hundred isn't bad, and in Swiss style tournies means he may have been just a win or a draw away from top 8. It means he was at least 4-2 or 4-1-1, or maybe even 4-0-2. Hardly a scrub out. In most mtg Swiss tournies of that size, that's close enough to get prize support. That's not too shabby when you consider the competition up near the top tables. Do you know what opponents the cron players faced? Maybe their losses are against some of the top armies.
With all these variables, and a sample size of ONE tournament as evidence, making any kind of claim one way or the other based on it is ludicrous and wholly unscientific!
I'm not sure why I'm bothering with this post. I'm just going to have another severe case of face palming the next time someone says "hey look they didn't win that one tournament, that shows for a fact that they aren't good!"
I hate seeing 10 mile logical leaps. So yes I mad!
Edit: the win %'s are up, and despite no necrons actually making it to top 8, their overall win % is fantastically good, better than eldar, in fact. So there's that, too. Again, we don't know if those are 7cron lists or wardcrons, among other variables.
Also looked at the two cron records in the high 20 ranks. Looks like they were probably both 4-1-1.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/02/22 14:56:44
Sigvatr wrote: I don't think there's much point in comparing an army's balance / strength in a game that still has stuff like IK or WS flying around.
Not quite how I'd put it, but yes: In a format where spam is king, you're going to get a really warped view as to whether an army is overpowered or not. Instead, you'll get a view on whether an army contains a number of absurdly overpowered units or not.
Honestly though, the Necron overpowered list is pretty much as follows:
Wraiths,
Tomb Blades,
Ever Living.
Canotek formation? Yes, but that's because it buffs wraiths, not because of the specific buffs.
You hit the nail on the head changemod. Case in point - Nick Nanavti may very well win the LVO because he has found two ridiculous units in the Daemons book (screamers and blight drones) and maximized them with supporting elements that cover for their (few) weaknesses.
As for the NewCrons, I think they have a strong and synergistic codex. Is this better than it was before? Absolutely. May they show up to tournaments and do well in the future because of the very strong units they have? In time, I think they will. That being said, it's hard to complain with all of the diversity at the top of the LVO standings. Even Orks, CSM and DA apparently have a chance! Go figure!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/22 15:46:14
vipoid wrote: What I6+ units do you think will be slaughtering Wraiths left, right and centre? I'm honestly intrigued because they're bloody durable at the best of times, and most units with I6 or higher have traded power for speed.
Not so much units, but lots of big scarey things Avatar of Khaine, Greater Daemons, Daemon Princes(?), Space Marine Personalities, Harlequin HQs, etc...
I'm not bitching about the nerf, but those big scarey close combat monsters that wraiths used to gang up on and attack first, now don't give a crap about whip coils.
To be honest I'm all in favor of the new whip coils because of the points reduction and simpler rules.
the_hanged_man wrote: Necrons had all of the cheese removed, and the Las Vegas Open 2015 results show this now that the first two day results are out. The highest ranking Necron player came in at 26th place...no where near the top 8.
Durability is great but it does not win games on its own. A poster upthread mentioned that Necrons will be really strong in casual games, but due to the lack of spammable cheese and real teeth will not dominate on the competitive scene, and I agree with this sentiment.
I actually love the new codex. Now there is mostly good internal balance so I can bring much more of my toys to the battlefield than before. A great thematic army that is very forgiving, but hardly OP.
Proves something I've said many times before nicely. They're durable but you need a strong player behind that to make the most of it.
the_hanged_man wrote: Necrons had all of the cheese removed, and the Las Vegas Open 2015 results show this now that the first two day results are out. The highest ranking Necron player came in at 26th place...no where near the top 8.
Ugh... I knew it was gonna happen. I wanted to think people on here were smarter than this, but I KNEW in my soul it would happen.
That because some guy didn't put together, paint, and practice with a new necron army and then travel to Las Vegas with it mere weeks after the book came out and then go on to win flawlessly round after round against other extremely competitive lists, that there would be people that would take it as gospel proof that they are perfectly fine.
I'm gonna put everything that's wrong with that line of thought here and just come back to quote it when I need to.
First up: do you even know if anyone played 7crons? Are you sure they didn't play wardcrons, since that was allowed? Do you have their lists? Do you know those players to be amazing generals? Do you know what dice rolls went against the odds in their games? Do you know if they got tossed into a bad matchup for their list?
Maybe some cron players came up with good 7cron lists and didn't want to travel across the country, or didn't have that weekend free, or couldn't finish painting/modeling/buying their list in time so they brought something else? Maybe they weren't sure how good the army was and decided to go with a "safer" choice, possibly due to not enough time to both make the army AND practice with it sufficiently. Maybe they went with lists they thought were good, but haven't done enough testing to really optimize them yet?
Also 26th out of several hundred isn't bad, and in Swiss style tournies means he may have been just a win or a draw away from top 8. It means he was at least 4-2 or 4-1-1, or maybe even 4-0-2. Hardly a scrub out. In most mtg Swiss tournies of that size, that's close enough to get prize support. That's not too shabby when you consider the competition up near the top tables. Do you know what opponents the cron players faced? Maybe their losses are against some of the top armies.
With all these variables, and a sample size of ONE tournament as evidence, making any kind of claim one way or the other based on it is ludicrous and wholly unscientific!
I'm not sure why I'm bothering with this post. I'm just going to have another severe case of face palming the next time someone says "hey look they didn't win that one tournament, that shows for a fact that they aren't good!"
I hate seeing 10 mile logical leaps. So yes I mad!
Edit: the win %'s are up, and despite no necrons actually making it to top 8, their overall win % is fantastically good, better than eldar, in fact. So there's that, too. Again, we don't know if those are 7cron lists or wardcrons, among other variables.
Also looked at the two cron records in the high 20 ranks. Looks like they were probably both 4-1-1.
I had people telling me the first big tournament like this would prove how "broken" the codex was, so I'd say you should have been making this argument ages ago, not when the tournament results prove you wrong.
And I won't say that there are some valid points there, but since you can't prove them either way we have to wait and see what comes from later tournaments instead.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/02/22 16:12:41
What about the tournament proves anyone wrong? Did someone actually say crons were going to win? If anything, I'd say the win % is a better factor to look at, given that it's a more broad statistic rather than "did a necron list go 5-1 or 6-0 y/n?"
And that statistic says necrons were doing fantastic on average at this one tournament.
And again we don't know the ratio of lists that were 7crons or 5crons, and the numbers get twisted around by mirror matches, bad matchups, and such.
I have a lot of play evidence to suggest decurion crons are flat out top tier good. I don't see anything about the lvo results disputing that.
the_hanged_man wrote: Necrons had all of the cheese removed, and the Las Vegas Open 2015 results show this now that the first two day results are out. The highest ranking Necron player came in at 26th place...no where near the top 8.
Ugh... I knew it was gonna happen. I wanted to think people on here were smarter than this, but I KNEW in my soul it would happen.
That because some guy didn't put together, paint, and practice with a new necron army and then travel to Las Vegas with it mere weeks after the book came out and then go on to win flawlessly round after round against other extremely competitive lists, that there would be people that would take it as gospel proof that they are perfectly fine.
I'm gonna put everything that's wrong with that line of thought here and just come back to quote it when I need to.
First up: do you even know if anyone played 7crons? Are you sure they didn't play wardcrons, since that was allowed? Do you have their lists? Do you know those players to be amazing generals? Do you know what dice rolls went against the odds in their games? Do you know if they got tossed into a bad matchup for their list?
Maybe some cron players came up with good 7cron lists and didn't want to travel across the country, or didn't have that weekend free, or couldn't finish painting/modeling/buying their list in time so they brought something else? Maybe they weren't sure how good the army was and decided to go with a "safer" choice, possibly due to not enough time to both make the army AND practice with it sufficiently. Maybe they went with lists they thought were good, but haven't done enough testing to really optimize them yet?
Also 26th out of several hundred isn't bad, and in Swiss style tournies means he may have been just a win or a draw away from top 8. It means he was at least 4-2 or 4-1-1, or maybe even 4-0-2. Hardly a scrub out. In most mtg Swiss tournies of that size, that's close enough to get prize support. That's not too shabby when you consider the competition up near the top tables. Do you know what opponents the cron players faced? Maybe their losses are against some of the top armies.
With all these variables, and a sample size of ONE tournament as evidence, making any kind of claim one way or the other based on it is ludicrous and wholly unscientific!
I'm not sure why I'm bothering with this post. I'm just going to have another severe case of face palming the next time someone says "hey look they didn't win that one tournament, that shows for a fact that they aren't good!"
I hate seeing 10 mile logical leaps. So yes I mad!
Edit: the win %'s are up, and despite no necrons actually making it to top 8, their overall win % is fantastically good, better than eldar, in fact. So there's that, too. Again, we don't know if those are 7cron lists or wardcrons, among other variables.
Also looked at the two cron records in the high 20 ranks. Looks like they were probably both 4-1-1.
Well said. The short sightedness of some is amazing. You mean a couple of weeks to get a national level army assembled, painted, and game tested isn't enough?
niv-mizzet wrote: What about the tournament proves anyone wrong? Did someone actually say crons were going to win?
Pretty much, suggested by anyone who said Necrons were broken good and had displace Eldar as the most broken.
What is the definition of broken good, other than to suggest that they will win almost all of the time ?
I have a lot of play evidence to suggest decurion crons are flat out top tier good. I don't see anything about the lvo results disputing that.
While I agree that Necrons are awesome, they didn't even place in the top 25 at LVO. Tournaments are "the" proving grounds for what is top tier.
40K is full of "Monkey See, Monkey Do" players who copy, or least get inspiration, from top tier tournament lists. There is no top tier tornament list for Necrons, yet.
Necron players will get better wielding the new options, and no doubt place better in future tournaments, but I still think this speaks that thier newfound durabilty alone doesn't win trounaments.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/22 16:43:49
I personally said they were broken among 7th codices and able to put up a fight against the top tier 6th books. Looking at the results, I'd say I was pretty accurate. Their win % is great, and a bunch of builds from 6th books litter the top ranks above them.
Even so, it's still just one data point, and a very unreliable one at that, given the timing of the codex release.
Even if a 7cron list DID get in top 8, I'd be saying the same thing the other direction. A few guys at a single tournament does not a satisfactory set of data points make.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/22 16:52:54
vipoid wrote: What I6+ units do you think will be slaughtering Wraiths left, right and centre? I'm honestly intrigued because they're bloody durable at the best of times, and most units with I6 or higher have traded power for speed.
Not so much units, but lots of big scarey things Avatar of Khaine, Greater Daemons, Daemon Princes(?), Space Marine Personalities, Harlequin HQs, etc...
I'm not bitching about the nerf, but those big scarey close combat monsters that wraiths used to gang up on and attack first, now don't give a crap about whip coils.
To be honest I'm all in favor of the new whip coils because of the points reduction and simpler rules.
A lot of those "big scary things" still have to get through T5 2W 3++/4+ RP. It's not a straight up win for the big scary things unless they are buffed/tooled out to hell.
A lot of those "big scary things" still have to get through T5 2W 3++/4+ RP. It's not a straight up win for the big scary things unless they are buffed/tooled out to hell.
That's pretty much the definition of big scarey things isn't it ?
I'm not saying it's auto win. My point was that the things that wraiths had the most trouble with, and therefore benefited the most from the old whip coils rules with, are now the same things that ignore the benefits of the new style whip coils.
Sigvatr wrote: I don't think there's much point in comparing an army's balance / strength in a game that still has stuff like IK or WS flying around.
Not quite how I'd put it, but yes: In a format where spam is king, you're going to get a really warped view as to whether an army is overpowered or not. Instead, you'll get a view on whether an army contains a number of absurdly overpowered units or not.
Honestly though, the Necron overpowered list is pretty much as follows:
Wraiths,
Tomb Blades,
Ever Living.
Canotek formation? Yes, but that's because it buffs wraiths, not because of the specific buffs.
A lot of those "big scary things" still have to get through T5 2W 3++/4+ RP. It's not a straight up win for the big scary things unless they are buffed/tooled out to hell.
That's pretty much the definition of big scarey things isn't it ?
I'm not saying it's auto win. My point was that the things that wraiths had the most trouble with, and therefore benefited the most from the old whip coils rules with, are now the same things that ignore the benefits of the new style whip coils.
Yes, but my point was I had a BT with 2 Greater Rewards, in this case a Blade of Blood for +1 Attack and 4+ FNP, and he still struggled against them. Even with ID, they have a 3++/5+ RP. Don't get me wrong, if I have to fight them, the first thing going at them is my Soul Grinder (because they can't hurt it now, I believe?) or my BT and my Biomancied DP.
Sigvatr wrote: I don't think there's much point in comparing an army's balance / strength in a game that still has stuff like IK or WS flying around.
Not quite how I'd put it, but yes: In a format where spam is king, you're going to get a really warped view as to whether an army is overpowered or not. Instead, you'll get a view on whether an army contains a number of absurdly overpowered units or not.
Honestly though, the Necron overpowered list is pretty much as follows:
Wraiths,
Tomb Blades,
Ever Living.
Canotek formation? Yes, but that's because it buffs wraiths, not because of the specific buffs.
How are Tomb Blades over powered?
i think the issues are bikes in general (Jink is very powerful, often with mitigated downside through TL'd weaponry or irrelevant on assault bikes, extra Toughness, insane speed), coupled with absurdly cheaply priced no-brainer upgrades that people are never *not* going to take.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
A lot of those "big scary things" still have to get through T5 2W 3++/4+ RP. It's not a straight up win for the big scary things unless they are buffed/tooled out to hell.
That's pretty much the definition of big scarey things isn't it ?
I'm not saying it's auto win. My point was that the things that wraiths had the most trouble with, and therefore benefited the most from the old whip coils rules with, are now the same things that ignore the benefits of the new style whip coils.
Yes, but my point was I had a BT with 2 Greater Rewards, in this case a Blade of Blood for +1 Attack and 4+ FNP, and he still struggled against them. Even with ID, they have a 3++/5+ RP. Don't get me wrong, if I have to fight them, the first thing going at them is my Soul Grinder (because they can't hurt it now, I believe?) or my BT and my Biomancied DP.
Sigvatr wrote: I don't think there's much point in comparing an army's balance / strength in a game that still has stuff like IK or WS flying around.
Not quite how I'd put it, but yes: In a format where spam is king, you're going to get a really warped view as to whether an army is overpowered or not. Instead, you'll get a view on whether an army contains a number of absurdly overpowered units or not.
Honestly though, the Necron overpowered list is pretty much as follows:
Wraiths,
Tomb Blades,
Ever Living.
Canotek formation? Yes, but that's because it buffs wraiths, not because of the specific buffs.
How are Tomb Blades over powered?
i think the issues are bikes in general (Jink is very powerful, often with mitigated downside through TL'd weaponry or irrelevant on assault bikes, extra Toughness, insane speed), coupled with absurdly cheaply priced no-brainer upgrades that people are never *not* going to take.
T5 dudes that can jink with a 3+ cover save (equipment upgrade) with the new Reanimation Protocols can be a very hard unit to shift. For peanuts they can be given an upgrade to give them the Ignores Cover rule, so they can kill fliers with a quad gun or rip apart light infantry (expecially with the blast weapon they can all take for really cheap, too). And, I think that is the real issue for Tomb Blades: they and all their upgrades are really inexpensive. They were stupidly expensive before to the point of uselessness, now the only real downside to taking lots of Tomb Blades is how much space they take up on the table.
"Through the darkness of future past, the magician longs to see.
One chants out between two worlds: Fire, walk with me." - Twin Peaks
"You listen to me. While I will admit to a certain cynicism, the fact is that I am a naysayer and hatchetman in the fight against violence. I pride myself in taking a punch and I'll gladly take another because I choose to live my life in the company of Gandhi and King. My concerns are global. I reject absolutely revenge, aggression, and retaliation. The foundation of such a method... is love. I love you Sheriff Truman." - Twin Peaks
Yeah, they're incredibly hard to put down, very cheap as an overall unit for what they offer, and the upgrade options are so cheap as to not even really be an option, they might as well have just built them and the cost into the base unit because they're never *not* going to be taken.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
A lot of those "big scary things" still have to get through T5 2W 3++/4+ RP. It's not a straight up win for the big scary things unless they are buffed/tooled out to hell.
That's pretty much the definition of big scarey things isn't it ?
I'm not saying it's auto win. My point was that the things that wraiths had the most trouble with, and therefore benefited the most from the old whip coils rules with, are now the same things that ignore the benefits of the new style whip coils.
Yes, but my point was I had a BT with 2 Greater Rewards, in this case a Blade of Blood for +1 Attack and 4+ FNP, and he still struggled against them. Even with ID, they have a 3++/5+ RP. Don't get me wrong, if I have to fight them, the first thing going at them is my Soul Grinder (because they can't hurt it now, I believe?) or my BT and my Biomancied DP.
I will say that I think a lot of it is because people haven't purchased Tomb Blades, because their obsessed with Wraiths. Seriously, Tomb Blades are crazy good and probably the best Point for Point model in the entire codex.
People will sing a different tune once players start using large units of Tomb Blades.
If I lose it is because I had bad luck, if you win it is because you cheated.
20000+ points
Well said. The short sightedness of some is amazing. You mean a couple of weeks to get a national level army assembled, painted, and game tested isn't enough?
~1.5k
