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I've been playing exclusively WHFB for the past 6-7 months and finally coming back for some 40k at my FLGS. I'm going to play against BA but didn't read the new codex nor any review of it, so I'm not sure what to expect to face on the table.

I play CSM and was planning on going with what I remember I used last time, some nurgle bikes & sorcerer, Jugger lord with chaos spawns and some havocs/oblies on the back mainly. A few troops with dirge caster rhinos to help the bikes and spawns to get into combat.

Any surprise I should be expecting? Mass grav weapons? S10 Templates?

Get the charge. If you get assaulted, you die.

Seriously though, death company are what khorne berzerkers should be. 5 str5 init5 attacks on the charge from a 23 point model that moves 12in a turn. Sanguinary guard all pack master crafted power weapons and wear artificer armor, and when backed up by a priest have ws5.

Choose your movements carefully and play the mobility game.

There is a chance of S10 from Fast Vindicators and there's also HUGE chances of Drop Pod ASM with 3+ Melta shots on an Alpha Strike. If you see that be sure to bubble wrap anything you don't want to die.

Dirge Casters won't help too much. Blood Angels love the charge but Blight Grenades are devestating. Takes away so many attacks, and since you're nearly guaranteed to face Death Company (who have Jump Packs and Rage AND Relentless so have the means and desire to get in the Charge) they can make what was going to be a slaughter into a long and drawn out affair. But, DC are Fearless so no chance of breaking them to retreat. Plague Marines are good counters for tarpitting but don't expect much to happen outside of a Stalemate there.

Be really afraid about what he doesn't put on the table. Reserves are the Blood Angel playthings and they'll hit your Obliterators and Havocs hard.

You're even on mobility but the bikes have the leg up on Jump Packs. Plan two moves ahead and take board control as soon as possible. Hem them in at 20-24" range if you can.

If you have a Defiler, that would actually be a good idea. S8 AP3 insta kills Death Company. No Armor Save, no FNP allowed. But, protect it from the Melta and keep your butt to the table edge.

Basically you need to watch out for a fast army that wants the assault for the most case. I would say most likely you could face a Baal Strike Force which gives his units +1I on the charge, so he'll be striking before you. The whole army pretty much has furious charge as well so they are also S5 on the charge. Units you may encounter are:

Death Company - 5 Attacks each on the charge at S5 if equipped with CCW's. Could contain a Chaplain or Astorath for re-rolls. Chaplain obviously allows re-rolls to hit in first round of any combat but Astorath also allows re-rolls to wound when they charge. Death Company are also very versatile with lots of different weapon load outs e.g. Power weapons, Power Fists, pistols of various types.

Sanguinary Guard - Master Crafted Power Weapons and Jump Packs and also Artificer Armour. Enough Said really.

Sanguinary Priest - He gives +1 WS to the squad he joins, this is a big advantage against other Marine type armies since his unit will be hitting on 3's instead of 4's.

Dante - He is a beast now. 4 wounds, 2+ Armour, 4+ Invulnerable and Eternal Warrior, with an axe that strikes at initiative with +2S. On the charge he'll be S7 and will have a ridiculous initiative stat. Not to mention he is good with several other units. i.e. Sanguinary Guard or Death Company. His hit and run ability works well with Death Company

Bikes - If you're up against bikes then most likely they will have 2 grav guns and a combi-grav on the sarg. They will seek out your 2+ armour units and destroy them. i.e. Oblits

Assault Squad - 5 man strong, with 2 Melta Guns and a combi-melta on the sarg in a drop pod. It's a ridiculously cheap unit at 115pts and can take out a vehicle costing more than then the unit very easily.

Storm Raven - Mainly because it's the best anti-flyer support Blood Angels have and also it's a flyer itself. Personally I take a TL Lascannon, a TL Mulit-melta and also Hurricane Bolters.

Dreadnought - Either a Furioso Frag Dreadnought or a Death Company one. It's most likely to be a Furioso equpied with a frag cannon and heavy flamer given it 3 flamer templates when it comes down in a drop pod.

Tactical Squad - Troops choice fulfilment, not to mention they can be equipped with a Heavy Flamer, Flamer and a combi-flamer on the sarg. So you could face this 10 man squad in a drop pod. So watch out for you weak units i.e. Cultists when they drop in because they flame them all away. They may instead be 5 man strong with a melta and combi-melta on the sarg instead.

Fast Vehicles - Overcharged engines are an upgrade that some Blood Angel Vehicles can get. So watch out for fast vindicators moving 12" with their S10 pie plates. Also fast predators could be making an appearance.

Essentially I think that's about most of it. There are other options he could take but I'm sure you'll see at least some of the above of what I mentioned.

How about psykers? Will I see some invisibility? or are librarians not worth it on a BA army?

I'm thinking on leaving the jugger lord home and instead take a unit of nurgle spawns to tarpit their power weapon units, with WS5 or 4, the spawns would still be hit in 3+ and waste their AP

How much AP2 will I see? Aside from the grav weapons what else should I been looking at? I assume the power weapons will be swords/maces to make the most out of the +1 so Sv2+ should do fine in close combat

About dante, fielding kharn might help not sure about Dante's stats but are they the same Initiative? if they are I forsee a DKO

BA don't get telepathy. No invisibility.

My personal BA list packs a huge amount of AP2 and far less anti-horde tech. Hordes I can bunch up and punch in the face.

Blood Angel psykers are better suited as Challenge models. The Blood aNgel Primaris power adds D3 Attacks and Initiative so is often on a Librarian with a sword. Since you're Chaos, you have to accept Challenges meaning avoid a Librarian with a sword.

Powerfists are common and so is Melta, but other AP2 not so much. I haven't seen any Power Mauls on Blood Angel lists. AP3 is everywhere but not so much AP2. Two Fists per 10 Death Company is standard.

Edit: actually I blanked about Dante at AP2, the most common Relic sword is AP2, axes are actually pretty common... There actually is a lot of AP2 in the more balanced lists and a fair amount strikes at Initiative..

Not so much AP 2?

My standard list has las/plas razors, plasma tacs, grav bikers, fast tri-las pred, and MM attack bikes. And power fists in the DC. 2+ saves are the bane of lists that like to do any assaulting. Shoot those units and assault the squishies.

Yeah, thats why I edited. I think I spent too much time looking at Mortis lists and had a brainfart about what the rest of the army had.

CSM and BA should be a pretty good match up, because both codices are rather weak. Against C:SM, you'd face much more obnoxious units.

Why thank you for that ray of sunshine, martel.

And now back to our regularly scheduled programming.

 th3maninblak wrote:
Why thank you for that ray of sunshine, martel.

And now back to our regularly scheduled programming.

I do like Martel, but I have to say he does get a bit pessimistic at times. I shudder to think what kind of lists he must face on a weekly basis if his experience is that the Blood Angels codex is a weak one. Don't get me wrong, I know it's far from the strongest but I didn't think it was at the bottom either.


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 Lord Yayula wrote:
How about psykers? Will I see some invisibility? or are librarians not worth it on a BA army?

I'm thinking on leaving the jugger lord home and instead take a unit of nurgle spawns to tarpit their power weapon units, with WS5 or 4, the spawns would still be hit in 3+ and waste their AP

How much AP2 will I see? Aside from the grav weapons what else should I been looking at? I assume the power weapons will be swords/maces to make the most out of the +1 so Sv2+ should do fine in close combat

About dante, fielding kharn might help not sure about Dante's stats but are they the same Initiative? if they are I forsee a DKO

Librarians don't get access to invisibility, so they would need to ally in another psyker for it if they want it. They do have the sanguinary discipline though which is mostly centred around boosting close combat abilities. Blood Angels also have access to a Librarian Dreadnought. There are a few people who like it and take it so it's possible that you could face it but it's not an overly popular option.

As for AP2 or better. You'll face a lot of it. They'll be Meltaguns, Infernus Pistols, Tri Las Preds, Powerists, AP2 sword relic, grav guns and perhaps some plasma. You might also see a Sotrmraven with a TL Mulit-melta and TL Lascannon and is also equipped with four AP2 S8 Missiles.

 DarthOvious wrote:

 th3maninblak wrote:
Why thank you for that ray of sunshine, martel.

And now back to our regularly scheduled programming.

I do like Martel, but I have to say he does get a bit pessimistic at times. I shudder to think what kind of lists he must face on a weekly basis if his experience is that the Blood Angels codex is a weak one. Don't get me wrong, I know it's far from the strongest but I didn't think it was at the bottom either.

Eh, he's not really wrong here. BA in competitive environments is like a snowman in july. They are fun to play, but don't have what they need to be a threat in shoothammer 7e. There would need to be loads of melee power weapon point decreases, and like... jink on jump packs or something for that to change.

And as far as being at the bottom...I don't have a torrent of fire sub to see that data, but I do know they had an abysmal 30% win rate at LVO this year, which was dead last by a wide margin. Even AM, dark eldar, and dark angels were way above that.

If i remember correctly, it took a good while for the space wolf codex to really find itself too, as far as tournament percentages are concerned. Give it a couple more months and we'll get a better idea of where the book stands.

People are also entirely discounting that the 2nd place list was double CAD BA and sentinels of terra, that was a pretty equal mix of both armies.

Finally, 11 people out of 221 is not a big enough sample to really get solid percentages. Time will tell.

 th3maninblak wrote:
If i remember correctly, it took a good while for the space wolf codex to really find itself too, as far as tournament percentages are concerned. Give it a couple more months and we'll get a better idea of where the book stands.

People are also entirely discounting that the 2nd place list was double CAD BA and sentinels of terra, that was a pretty equal mix of both armies.

Finally, 11 people out of 221 is not a big enough sample to really get solid percentages. Time will tell.

The BA element of that list was more of a supporting role rather than making the most of the BA dex. It basically boiled down to Mephy and drop pods using the Flest Terarers detachment for extra fast slots.

I'm not quite as pessimistic as Martel, but I (grudgingly) accept we're a lower tier dex. I think the problem is we have a lot of the right tools and potential for good synergy but are lacking in terms of those super durable, super hard hitting death star type units. I'm still hopeful that the stars will align and we'll find some super efficient way of utilising the dex, but until then we'll have to accept that a worse player with a 'better' dex will be able to put us in the back foot easily.

D

Then how do you explain my tie vs white scars/red hunters bikes? Two players of equal skill (i actually think he may be better than me in general) playing armies that theyre familiar with, and by that mindset I should have thrown up my hands and said "zomg white scars my book sux cant win". Hell, he was even playing what is considered a cheese list, with 2 chapter masters, khan, grav bikes, thunderfire cannons, the works. While i was playing a list that in retrospect wasnt even that good.

I get really tired of being a positive BA voice on these forums and having people attempt to cheapen my advice and examples of my own wins by writing off my opponents as being bad. Seems like its not enough for guys like Martel to HAVE an opinion, they have to discredit anyone who has a differing one.

 th3maninblak wrote:
Then how do you explain my tie vs white scars/red hunters bikes? Two players of equal skill (i actually think he may be better than me in general) playing armies that theyre familiar with, and by that mindset I should have thrown up my hands and said "zomg white scars my book sux cant win". Hell, he was even playing what is considered a cheese list, with 2 chapter masters, khan, grav bikes, thunderfire cannons, the works. While i was playing a list that in retrospect wasnt even that good.

I get really tired of being a positive BA voice on these forums and having people attempt to cheapen my advice and examples of my own wins by writing off my opponents as being bad. Seems like its not enough for guys like Martel to HAVE an opinion, they have to discredit anyone who has a differing one.

Exalted

We do have good things in our codex. I do think that we're missing something akin to a Chapter Master Beatstick from the Space marine Codex without having to take Dante but we still get some really good stuff and overall it's a good book I think. We pretty much hit before all other marine armies when we charge into combat and I fell that Corbulo actually makes a really good buff character that people haven't really realised yet. Having I6 on the charge is just insane. If people want to focus on the shooting aspect of the game then they can take all those fast vehicles we have access to. Nothing says good shooting like Fast Vindicators and Fast Tri Las Preds.

 th3maninblak wrote:
Then how do you explain my tie vs white scars/red hunters bikes? Two players of equal skill (i actually think he may be better than me in general) playing armies that theyre familiar with, and by that mindset I should have thrown up my hands and said "zomg white scars my book sux cant win". Hell, he was even playing what is considered a cheese list, with 2 chapter masters, khan, grav bikes, thunderfire cannons, the works. While i was playing a list that in retrospect wasnt even that good.

I get really tired of being a positive BA voice on these forums and having people attempt to cheapen my advice and examples of my own wins by writing off my opponents as being bad. Seems like its not enough for guys like Martel to HAVE an opinion, they have to discredit anyone who has a differing one.

I've beaten White Scars with the 5th ed codex. Doesn't mean that was a good codex. And that was a good opponent.

Basically, opinions about codex ranking are as much thought experiment as anything else. For example, if I consider the damage out put of a gravstar, I foresee losing the majority of my games to armies that contain that unit.

I wasn't trying to dis-credit your opinion, sorry if it came across that way. I was just pointing out the LVO list feat BA wasn't built around the best BA can offer, and was more of a supporting force offering flexibility in terms of delivery that the SM can't currently offer (I.e drop pods for Cents).

I won't deny that BA perform well against MEQ,especially if using BSF, but we know whilst SM are considers a higher codex than BA is due to the fact that their Chapter Tactics can be more geared to getting the most out of shooting, they can easily spam more durable troops and easier access to relentless grav.

IMO, this gives them better odds against lists that we might struggle against such as Nids/Daemons with their FMCs, Eldar with their super high rates of fire pseudo rending shots that never miss, Tau whilst they taken a knock from 6th to 7th aren'wto be underestimated...

Overall I am pleased with our dex and like I say am optimistic that their might yet to be away to make BA a top tier book, one lesson from LVO is that the 'wisdom' of the internet isn't to be believed with Lictors and Scouts appearing in the top lists. Also the BA book hasn't out all that long.

Despite all this we're still a predominantly punchy army in a shooty game, despite a few neat tricks we have to work damn hard for our victories.

D

I'm pleased with the codex in that the 5th edition one got completely boned by 6th ed rules.

My primary issue is that I still find myself taking huge amounts of incoming fire that I can't return. The incoming fire is crippling my ability to be choppy enough when I reach my opponent.

Martel is right, thankfully, you can always ally something(what i do is take clan raukaan primary CAD and Flesh tearers strike force , MOTF with gorgon's chain and ironstone in a razorback, giving 4+ IWND to my 3 firesupport Dreads and predators behind ADL for example )
What to expect?
unless you are sure you can charge them DON'T. Death company+ Astorath or even a basic chaplain is a nasty thing even if you charge them, or sanguinary guard with priest, heck even Termies with Seth in LRC can be nasty if they charge a numerically superior opponent(Many people hate Seth because of his piss poor survivability, can't disagree on that but taking up to 9/12 with quickening S9 Rending attacks at initiative 5 or 6 or even 9 with quickening is NOT fun while TH&SS sargeant takes a challenge...(if only berzerkers would be so kickass in H2H )
TL;DR out shoot them, DC hate vindicators, and only once they are sufficiently softened up consider charging them....

ThatSwellFella wrote:
Martel is right, thankfully, you can always ally something(what i do is take clan raukaan primary CAD and Flesh tearers strike force , MOTF with gorgon's chain and ironstone in a razorback, giving 4+ IWND to my 3 firesupport Dreads and predators behind ADL for example )
What to expect?
unless you are sure you can charge them DON'T. Death company+ Astorath or even a basic chaplain is a nasty thing even if you charge them, or sanguinary guard with priest, heck even Termies with Seth in LRC can be nasty if they charge a numerically superior opponent(Many people hate Seth because of his piss poor survivability, can't disagree on that but taking up to 9/12 with quickening S9 Rending attacks at initiative 5 or 6 or even 9 with quickening is NOT fun while TH&SS sargeant takes a challenge...(if only berzerkers would be so kickass in H2H )
TL;DR out shoot them, DC hate vindicators, and only once they are sufficiently softened up consider charging them....

Quite a lot of the imoperial death stars do cover multiple codices anyway. There is always someone wanting to take a SoB priest with their marine force.

 th3maninblak wrote:
Then how do you explain my tie vs white scars/red hunters bikes? Two players of equal skill (i actually think he may be better than me in general) playing armies that theyre familiar with, and by that mindset I should have thrown up my hands and said "zomg white scars my book sux cant win". Hell, he was even playing what is considered a cheese list, with 2 chapter masters, khan, grav bikes, thunderfire cannons, the works. While i was playing a list that in retrospect wasnt even that good.

I get really tired of being a positive BA voice on these forums and having people attempt to cheapen my advice and examples of my own wins by writing off my opponents as being bad. Seems like its not enough for guys like Martel to HAVE an opinion, they have to discredit anyone who has a differing one.

I've schooled an eldar serpent list with my BA before.
Sometimes a few improbable dice rolls completely change the game. I could down a knight with two melta shots to front armor and have its explosion land on the next knight, hitting with a 6 on the D zone. Stuff can get crazy yo.

"I won/drew/barely lost this one time" is literally anecdotal evidence, and not even GOOD anecdotal evidence.

A list from the worst codex in the game can beat a list from the best codex in the game. That doesn't mean he won't be going into the match at a supreme disadvantage.

The dice were generally even basically all game. The thing is, that even though my list was heavily geared towards being anti knight/armor (which was a good call, there were over a half dozen knights in the league) and disadvantaged vs his bikes, i never really felt out matched.

Honestly, Dante+priest+sanguinary guard carried the day, accounting for a chapter master, khan, half of a command squad, a bike squad and a thunderfire cannon. The death company put in some work too.

 th3maninblak wrote:
The dice were generally even basically all game. The thing is, that even though my list was heavily geared towards being anti knight/armor (which was a good call, there were over a half dozen knights in the league) and disadvantaged vs his bikes, i never really felt out matched.

Honestly, Dante+priest+sanguinary guard carried the day, accounting for a chapter master, khan, half of a command squad, a bike squad and a thunderfire cannon. The death company put in some work too.

Dante is pretty much The Man^TM in this codex. No longer is it Mephy running the show. It's all Dante now.

Mephiston is not to be underestimated with access to LoS and new lower price. Dante is a better pure beatstick, but Mephy can do some interesting things as well.

Top 3 characters in the book are probably Dante, Mephiston, and Astorath in that order.

After playing mephy in a few games last weekend, my friends are complaining about him (again). Particularly after he killed a dread, vindicator and wraithlord in one game. I think he's better now than he was before, just different.

Martel732 wrote:
Mephiston is not to be underestimated with access to LoS and new lower price. Dante is a better pure beatstick, but Mephy can do some interesting things as well.

He is still a good choice and to be honest he is still comparable to last codex in terms of usefulness. I think it's just the massive jump (no pun intended) in Dante's power that has put him on the list as The Man^TM. Logan Grimnar cries in his sleep now wishing that he was like Dante


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 th3maninblak wrote:
Top 3 characters in the book are probably Dante, Mephiston, and Astorath in that order.

After playing mephy in a few games last weekend, my friends are complaining about him (again). Particularly after he killed a dread, vindicator and wraithlord in one game. I think he's better now than he was before, just different.

I think he is about the same. Sure he lost 1S and 1T, but he did get a big pts reduction and Independent Character. He can still be S10 which is nice but unfortunately he is still AP3. He can kill things and lots of things but just remember he isn't taking that squad of termies on anytime soon. In saying that I remember someone else saying he compliments a squad of Termies really well when attached to them and with them being a unit on foot you can shove Corublo in there for +1WS and +1I goodness.

It doesn't seem to be a popular opinion, but I prefer 5e mephy, or even 6e after he got a phobia against 2+ armor enemies.

In that setup, it was 250 and you had a scary unit that could take on anything except 2+ armor.

In the 7e setup, he turned from unit to model in a unit.

So now for 175 I can get a decent IC/psyker + the cost of the unit. I'm still looking for the unit that most wants him in the party. He's like a deathstar component looking for a deathstar to join in our book. And 2 ML2 libbies is only 5 points more.

So that being said, with allies, he can find a spot, but in codex-only, I just can't find a list where I really go "mephiston should be in this spot."

So yeah I preferred when he was a little scary mini deathstar on his own that basically required 5 anti tank weapons to hit and wound to bring down, so I could throw all the other points elsewhere.

I can see that position. I just put him in Sternguards and call it a day.