Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

There definitely is a niche for neat, basic (and I don't mean this in a derogatory sense) work.

It is however very difficult to hit - I reckon probably 25% of my time is taken purely in cleanup and assembly through to priming, then another 40-50% in hitting a neat basic level (block colours, up to first washes) - basically where you'd normally dip a model if going that route.
So you're still doing close to 75% of the work, for a fraction of the money.

There's also a distinct problem in 'dialling back' the standard of work - and this is the main reason I only work the higher end stuff. It takes a phenomenal amount of discipline to actually stop at a flat base colour and single, not necessarily fine line highlight; the natural instinct of the painter is to neaten up and make it look nice. 'Good enough' is a concept more easily seen on the gaming tabletop from 3' away, not on the painting desk.

But if you can get that process fast and efficient, there's certainly profit to be made there; I think a dipped army production line could do extremely well - and to some extent they do in historical miniatures circles.

Maz I love your work and given the time and commitment you put into it I think your rates are very reasonable. I certainly understand where you're coming from, I've shopped around my services as a sculptor and also for casting and people constantly freak out about the prices.

For a sculpt I typically quote $500-$600, but that's based on an average of 40-50 hours of work. Typically they reply that they are expecting to pay in the $200-$300ish range. I think if people were aware of the time it takes they might start to realize that the pricing most artists charge is actually very low.

Artists also put extensive amounts of time into developing their skills and very few people consider that, you're supposed to work for $5-$10 an hour with a skill that took years to develop and potentially tens of thousands of dollars to study at school. The average art school costs 30k a year, putting a 4 year degree at $120k+ without any living expenses.Yet artist are expected to magically balance living and paying down their student loans on wages less than what they'd make flipping burgers at Mc Donalds.

You rates are realistic and set by your needs, not somebody's whim. If the quoted price horrifies the masses they likely have no sense in buying art to begin with.

The best counterpoint you can make is ask them how much they expect to make in a week working full time, and try not to laugh when it's 2-3 times what you are asking for the same amount of time. Especially when most artist's work is only done on a temporary basis and there's lots of time where you don't have regular income. Artists need to value their time accordingly and not listen to the crowd droning "I want it as cheap as possible".




There was a really good story that I saw making the rounds not too long ago, don't remember it word for word but here's the overall

An artist is attending a local art fair and a customer spots a really nice bracelet that's priced at $250. The customer scoffs and pulls out her iphone and after several minutes of online searching she approaches the artists. Excuse me sir your bracelet is absolutely beautiful, but it's priced at $250. The artists says yes that's what I'm charging. The customer says that seems like a lot, I did some checking on the price and I can buy all the materials for $83. It seems a bit unfair that you would be charging $250 when it only costs $83 to buy all the parts online. Would you sell me it for $83 instead?

The artist says sure I'll sell you everything the same as what it's listed for online, but it'll take a week. The customer is delighted and scribbles down her address for him.

A week later a box arrives at the customers house and it has the copper wire, gem stones and clasps to make the bracelet with a note saying "here are the items you wanted at the internet pricing. However the artistry, workmanship, and years of experience all cost extra".



.

Rankling, but naturally a lot of the people seeking your services will be bad or inexperienced painters, and having not done so themselves, will be unappreciative or even wholly ignorant of the amount of time and effort required to paint a mini to a high standard. Wouldn't let it bother you.

winterdyne wrote:
There definitely is a niche for neat, basic (and I don't mean this in a derogatory sense) work.

There's also a distinct problem in 'dialling back' the standard of work - and this is the main reason I only work the higher end stuff. It takes a phenomenal amount of discipline to actually stop at a flat base colour and single, not necessarily fine line highlight; the natural instinct of the painter is to neaten up and make it look nice. 'Good enough' is a concept more easily seen on the gaming tabletop from 3' away, not on the painting desk.

But if you can get that process fast and efficient, there's certainly profit to be made there; I think a dipped army production line could do extremely well - and to some extent they do in historical miniatures circles.

Most of what I currently do is historicals. There is plenty of reference material for the paint schemes and normally there is no deviations from the schemes. Most historical players are looking to get their armies on the table painted and be able to identify what units they are in a glance (they tend to be a bit anal about that). Historical units tend to be fairly large and if the front rank is done a bit better then the rest the client will be happy. There are actually very few (at least in the States) painting service that actually do affordable basic painting any more. Check out the Painting service list on TMP and about 2/3 of the listings are dead links.

 Compel wrote:

Could this then mean that there is a niche available for 'cheap' and 'quick' painting?

Of course but that argument doesn't work in this case, the client wanted a high quality army and probably has seen winterdyne's work (why else ask for a quote?). That's like seeing a nice upscale Audi/BMW, wanting one, and then being surprised that it costs more than a Toyota Yaris.

I think about the most important lesson I learnt while doing commission work was that if you don't at least occasionally get a prospective client say 'Dear God, that's ridiculous!' you're probably not charging enough.


The thing is, a lot of people who pay others to do this work don't see the 'artistic' side of it. It's just putting paint on toys. And they don't really have an idea of how much work is involved, because they don't do it themselves.

So it's not (I think) so much that people want the world for nothing... it's simply that they don't see the same value in it that the artist does, and so expect it to be much cheaper to do.

So long as you're still getting steady work, it doesn't pay to dwell on those who undervalue what you do. If they don't understand it, that's their loss rather than yours. There's always another client out there who thinks he's getting a bargain.

Could this also be a symptom of the number of commission services now that primarily rely on airbrush work? I'm a decent enough painter and enjoy the hobby, but if I were to commission an army, I can count on one hand the number of people I would even consider for the job, and only a single one--Brandon at GMM--uses an airbrush for the majority of his work.

Let's be honest: airbrushing requires practice, but the learning curve to become good enough at it to impress most tabletop gamers is nowhere near the amount of time invested in learning how to use a brush well. Airbrushes save time, saving the customer money, and a well-airbrushed models hits enough buttons to make people believe they're getting a much higher quality job than may actually be the case.

You could always outsource it to China?

http://www.nekomagic.com/?p=19528

 the_Armyman wrote:
Could this also be a symptom of the number of commission services now that primarily rely on airbrush work? I'm a decent enough painter and enjoy the hobby, but if I were to commission an army, I can count on one hand the number of people I would even consider for the job, and only a single one--Brandon at GMM--uses an airbrush for the majority of his work.

Let's be honest: airbrushing requires practice, but the learning curve to become good enough at it to impress most tabletop gamers is nowhere near the amount of time invested in learning how to use a brush well. Airbrushes save time, saving the customer money, and a well-airbrushed models hits enough buttons to make people believe they're getting a much higher quality job than may actually be the case.

Hmm, not really true I think. You're talking about a difference in style that a lot of painters can switch between. Airbrushing is actually a lot trickier in many ways too.

 insaniak wrote:
I think about the most important lesson I learnt while doing commission work was that if you don't at least occasionally get a prospective client say 'Dear God, that's ridiculous!' you're probably not charging enough.

That's a really good point, and also true of nearly any skilled work.

When I was in Law School, I took a class on Law Practice Management, which focused on the business side of running your own legal practice. The section on setting and explaining fees was incredibly interesting, because it stressed that the clients that give you the most hassle about fees upfront will be problems the whole way through. The professor also agreed with "Foonberg's Rule:" Cash up front, as much as possible. Although I did have an opposing attorney tell me the story of when he represented an "earthy" gentleman who eventually admitted he could not pay even the small bill he had accrued in cash, but that he had a pig farm and could set up the lawyer with a full pig roast...

The world is full of people that want something for nothing, and every free lancer and professional has encountered the "shock" when people realize how much quality work costs. Its part of being in business.

You need to be fair to people and realise they probably have little concept of how long things take. Even gamers who aren't looking for commission painters, how many gamers embark on collecting an army and after 1 unit realise they've bitten off more than they can chew. I would say most gamers don't know how long it takes them from opening a box to producing a finished squad/regiment/tank.whatever.

I think the best you can do is say "to paint these models to that standard will probably take me around about that many hours, so it will cost around this much. It may sound like a lot, but you'll find that people charging less are spending less time on it and probably won't produce as good results".

People understand that time costs money, they probably just don't have a realistic concept of how much time it takes to do something.

Even though I work with professionals, they still sometimes get shocked when I tell them how much it'll cost them if they want me to do a project for them. When it comes to your average joe it's even worse because they usually have no concept of how long a project will take nor how much I'd expect to be paid per hour.

There is a reason why I only ever paint commissions for friends anymore.

Not just on miniatures that people are like this - I have friends that are professional artists - and people are always shocked by how much paintings cost and how long the commission will take. (One was painting ACW scenes for quite a while - because the Civil War enthusiasts were always polite, and paid promptly and without complaint. For all I know Claus could still be painting them, I haven't seen him in about a decade.)

The Auld Grump

Funny, I was thinking of other problems as well or "risks" of the business.
The weather or the can of primer I had was a bit off and I got paint "cracking" on some models but not others (suspecting not good enough cleaning of mold release off sprue contributed, it was spraying on kinda strange).
Any number of things can set-back a project so expecting a rock-bottom price is looking more foolish as risks mount.
Packaging and shipping insurance alone is looking prohibitive depending on where finished product needs to go.

Air-brush is a good thing to bring up, I just got into it for the last two years and nothing does block painting faster and saves paint.
I do not even want to think how long my 100 IG/AM foot sloggers would have taken by my traditional brush method.

Somewhere in one of my threads I had talked to some fellow who painted a FANTASTIC looking FW dreadnaught and said it took 1/2 an hour, I could not believe it.
He was kind enough to put a watch in the frame and show step by step how he did it in 20 minutes, utterly disgusting (10 minutes of small detail with brush to go after).
Needless to say, that is when I decided I wanted an air-brush.

So great skill can save time AND get good results so I am curious if some competitive painting groups may be mainly airbrush?
I checked out some sites and pricing is laid-out quite well with a few:
http://www.centerpieceminiatures.com/commission-work/

Dave here at Dakka is rather prolific: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/514200.page

http://www.golempaintingstudio.co.uk/pricing.htm
http://www.the-vanus-temple.com/warhammer-commission-painting-service/
http://bluetablepainting.com/painting/ Good for block painting??? hehe

Anyway, I liked centerpiece miniatures the most for how it was all defined.
There would be no confusion on the level of painting and cost groupings to suit.

Good luck OP, just do not burn out your love for the hobby OK?

winterdyne wrote:

So how did I work out the price? Experience and math. Not rocket science, not magic, and not by having a root round up my... it's left me annoyed to be honest, more so than the usual zero response. And it's probably a low estimate by the time people start talking about extra freehand or decal design work, oddball basing...

It seems that there's a common reckoning that commission studios should do intense, skilled work for far below what their workers could get painting a wall, or flipping burgers or possibly there's a misconception on the amount of work involved?

So seriously, if you're interested in hiring a professional painter, please don't be insulting about it. And if you can't afford to pay $25 per infantry figure don't ask for high level work.

I suspect that guy might have been coming into the search with a frame of mind relating the cost of painting to the cost of the model. Also, someone looking at painted armies sale prices on ebay might naively and incorrectly think that is the same price as commisioning the army of his dreams from a reputable painter. Obviously that isn't the case but I could see someone looking into it for the first time thinking that.

When I approached a local painter many years ago (15+) about getting some figs painted, I thought up the price of the paint job in terms of the cost of the models (a $30 tactical marine box shouldn't cost me more than $30 maximum to get painted up to decent tabletop level) even though at a tabletop quality that wouldn't pay minimum wage to assemble/clean/paint/base those 10 figs. Heck, I even thought that 50% over the model price was fair and tried to start negotiation there. I simply didn't think of it from an hourly pay perspective which meant that for those 10 figs that I was expecting a half hour's pay at minimum wage for each fig to go from new on sprue to painted tabletop brushwork quality (the guy didn't own an airbrush). From the correct perspective, that is a ridiculous starting and ending point that I walked into the discussion with. The painter was just as naive at the time and was doing it for pocket money as well so his starting counter offer was actually below my maximum ceilling as well. Neither of us were thinking of how much time it actually took to do the work.

Most buyers generally don't think (or usually care) about actual cost of putting a roof over the painter's head (unless your figs get damaged in the rain!) or food on his table... and, frankly, they don't have to. That is your priority/problem/job as a professional. You quote what you think meets your goals (financial, time, etc) and see if he bites. You do nice work so you will attract folks willing to pay a fair wage for that work. Having your time wasted by lookie-loos is just an unfortunate fact of life in any business where you sell something whether products or services. If he decides to go with the 3rd world international bargain basement offer, he'll at best get what he actually paid for (as opposed to what he expected) and at worst get nothing but a headache and an empty wallet. It's his risk to take.

I have friends who are professional musicians who people also freak out when they hear the actual cost to have a brass quartet play at a wedding.

Usually rule of thumb they have begun using. They say "Call up a plumber or electrician and get an estimate for 5 hours of work. Now take that estimate for 5 hours of work and times it by the 4 people in the quartet. That is what it will cost."

I think one of the problems with commission painting and having 'levels' is once people see your top work, they will never be happy with tier 1. And photos show flaws way more than the human eye. I am a casual painter and would do commisions a long time ago when I was broke so I could keep my hobby fed. I did table-top work. It involved inks and drybrushes but no highlighting. It looks great from a 3-foot distance and pretty good up close.

I dare say in todays world of phtographs on the internet, many would call my stuff not even tier 1 or tabletop quality.

I think a lot of people have really crazy expectations for commission painting. I bet it hurts every day when someone devalues your talent and work as basically being worthless by expecting you to work for basically 1$ an hour.

No one would expect a portrait painter to give a price based on the cost of the canvas.

 warboss wrote:

I suspect that guy might have been coming into the search with a frame of mind relating the cost of painting to the cost of the model. Also, someone looking at painted armies sale prices on ebay might naively and incorrectly think that is the same price as commisioning the army of his dreams from a reputable painter. Obviously that isn't the case but I could see someone looking into it for the first time thinking that.

When I approached a local painter many years ago (15+) about getting some figs painted, I thought up the price of the paint job in terms of the cost of the models (a $30 tactical marine box shouldn't cost me more than $30 maximum to get painted up to decent tabletop level) even though at a tabletop quality that wouldn't pay minimum wage to assemble/clean/paint/base those 10 figs. Heck, I even thought that 50% over the model price was fair and tried to start negotiation there. I simply didn't think of it from an hourly pay perspective which meant that for those 10 figs that I was expecting a half hour's pay at minimum wage for each fig to go from new on sprue to painted tabletop brushwork quality (the guy didn't own an airbrush). From the correct perspective, that is a ridiculous starting and ending point that I walked into the discussion with. The painter was just as naive at the time and was doing it for pocket money as well so his starting counter offer was actually below my maximum ceilling as well. Neither of us were thinking of how much time it actually took to do the work.

There's a few of these sorts of 'services' starting up regularly. The problem is that working at those rates is sustainable only while you have time and support. Usually this means the painter is a schoolkid. As soon as exams / parent interventions / something new and shiny happen, your service disappears. Particularly a problem if the project in hand is a large one (like the one the client in my OP put forward). It's in my interest as a commission painter to ensure that people's interaction with my industry is painless on the whole. A bad rep for the industry means I get fewer enquiries, and fewer enquiries make fewer pennies for feeding my kids.

 warboss wrote:

Most buyers generally don't think (or usually care) about actual cost of putting a roof over the painter's head (unless your figs get damaged in the rain!) or food on his table... and, frankly, they don't have to. That is your priority/problem/job as a professional. You quote what you think meets your goals (financial, time, etc) and see if he bites. You do nice work so you will attract folks willing to pay a fair wage for that work. Having your time wasted by lookie-loos is just an unfortunate fact of life in any business where you sell something whether products or services. If he decides to go with the 3rd world international bargain basement offer, he'll at best get what he actually paid for (as opposed to what he expected) and at worst get nothing but a headache and an empty wallet. It's his risk to take.

Again, yeah, I'm sure he will. It's no skin off my nose - I normally have a waiting list of 6 months to a year, so I'm pretty secure in my own position. The downside is that people running face first into a wall tend to blame the wall, and posts complaining about the commission industry in general hurt the industry. I'm sure all the pro painters agree that that can only be a bad thing for business.

Which is pretty much the core of why I started the thread - part venting, part putting out the advice to potential clients that they should really be realistic in their expectations of a service.

Winter... no offense... but you paint better then 99.9% of other commission painters. Hell, you should charge more. There are a 100~people in the world that can match the quality and only a dozen who paint for money out of those. You have a valid rant.

I know a few local commission painters who may charge 300-400$ for that batch of models - but built and painted quickly within 30-40 hours (If not 100). I myself have taken a 200-300 hour project to get paid in the 500-600 area. Months of painting 200+ model count armies for a small paycheck. Then again, I'm not as skilled as you

Also:

I understand GMM studios prices - and he's an absurdly fast painter. I also looka t yours and see that as "Average" for GD Quality

 Compel wrote:
I'm going to try to play devils advocate here and, probably end up offending half the forum.

Could this then mean that there is a niche available for 'cheap' and 'quick' painting?

I've often had a look around the gallery or blogs etc and seen models that people have labelled as 'tabletop quality' and thought, "yeah, eff that, I'd only ever practically see one guy in a busy GW, or a 1 guy per games system at a club that'd paint even remotely near that 'tabletop standard.'

I've seen Winterdyne's work before and yeah, it's awesome, amazing, gorgeous, a work of art. But, I think, there's a lot of people out there who don't need works of art. Those that'd be really quite happy with a base painting marginally better than a typical overenthusiastic 12 year olds and then some Army Painter Dip to really set the models off.

I just think that not only is there a gulf between the Artist and the Masses like you're all saying, but that it actually works both ways.

I don't want to get too far off topic, as this thread isn't about "quick & cheap" painting... but there's DEFINITELY a market for that.
I'm the Admin in charge of advertisers on Bartertown, and I know from first hand experience that one of our most successful painters there was someone who started out offering exactly that service. His painting levels were "tabletop." Nothing you're going to show off, but it's not going to look like a child dipped it in a bucket of Testors, either. We're talking $3 to $4 US per Infantry model, nothing fancy; base colors, maybe some drybrushing and wash.. His business skyrocketed so fast he actually had to take on a few local guys to him to paint with/for him.
He started to get too busy and had some personal things he needed to take care of, so he did things the right way (stopped taking commissions, finished what was on the plate and closed doors temporarily), but he's talking about reopening the commission business.

There is DEFINITELY a "Q&C market out there.

Eric

winterdyne wrote:
Ok, this is a little bit of a vent/rant for me. So apologies up front for that.

First for those that don't know me, a little background:

I've been painting for over 25 years, as a professional service for the last 6 (and a few times here and there before).
I've done competition (golden demon winning standard - by this I mean I came 2nd to the sword), studio (box and publicity work) as well as a large number of private commissions.
I'm pretty open about the techniques I use, the time I take, and I communicate prolifically.

So anyway, yesterday I get an email:

Client wrote:
Hi guys,
I am looking for a price on a army of tau empire in a high quality paint scheme worthy of a cabinet.

The models I'm looking to paint is...

1) tau ethereal
1) battle suit commander
2)fire warrior squads 24 models total
2) kroot squads 24 models total
1) unit of 10 path finders
6) battle suits 2 squads of 3
3) broadsides
1) riptide
11) drones
2) hammerheads
1) unit of 3 stealth suits

So, a big job then - near 60 infantry, a half-dozen character level jobs, plus a fair few battle suits, tanks etc. And to high standard. I crank the numbers and reckon it'll be sitting a way north of 500 hours on first estimates.

I used to get involved doing an item-by-item breakdown on enquiries like this. More often than not this led to no response from the client, so these days I throw out a quick estimate of turnaround time and total cost before putting out a firm quote (that I stick to regardless of if things slip).

In this case, we're looking between 500 and 650 working hours, depending on schemes, running in at north of £4,000 - £4,200 ($6000+). Making an approximate hourly rate of £6.95 / $10. So, dirt cheap really, but for what I do it seems to be close to the competitive mark. I spread this over 6-9 months to allow higher paying jobs to keep cash flowing.
If the client doesn't run off at that, I usually tweak up the hourly rate when preparing the firm quote to something more reasonable if they're wanting a specific timescale, or leave it low if it's a 'whenever' job that I can do other work around.

Ballpark figure goes out to the client - £4,000 - £4,200 not including model or shipping costs, 6month+ turnaround, lead time of at least 6 months, probably not until Christmas (I'm very busy right now).

And I get:

Client wrote:
Good god no!!! How did you workout that price? That's crazy... Thanks but no thanks.

So how did I work out the price? Experience and math. Not rocket science, not magic, and not by having a root round up my... it's left me annoyed to be honest, more so than the usual zero response. And it's probably a low estimate by the time people start talking about extra freehand or decal design work, oddball basing...

It seems that there's a common reckoning that commission studios should do intense, skilled work for far below what their workers could get painting a wall, or flipping burgers or possibly there's a misconception on the amount of work involved?

So seriously, if you're interested in hiring a professional painter, please don't be insulting about it. And if you can't afford to pay $25 per infantry figure don't ask for high level work.

This is why I stopped doing commissions for the most part and only take on my serious clients. My worst request was 200 dwarves and 30 warmachines, he felt $200 was acceptable for tournament award winning quality and wanted it in 4 weeks. He felt that because it was bulk it lowered the price. When I told him he is short a minimum of $6800 and 5 months (a whopping $300 a week for 34 hours a week painting) he sent all sorts of nasty messages and crapped on my work over a few forums. Its a weird entitlement that people have that think if you can do art easily then you are a human printer that can slave endlessly because its "fun". I have a video that goes on about this but cant post it due to swears, its called " F*** you pay me" its worth looking up and concerns contracts with clients.

I do airbrushing as well and have done everything from the human body to cars. I can put 40 hours into a helmet and get $1500, so when some cheap goob wants me to paint an army for pennies I just pass. Let some one else kill themselves doing a bad job.

Actually that reminds me of another story. Had a guy want me to paint his manta. I put it at 40 hours and $800, and the guy passed, he went to someone else and they just dry brushed it, and he posted it on the forums. Its horrid, and to spend $2000 on a model then cheaping out on paint is just a travesty.

Anyway. Point I'm making is charge whatever you feel your skills are worth, eventually you'll find the people that will pay what you ask and you'll gain a solid clientele of reliable people. Always do your best work or you'll get swamped by these cheapstakes that will constantly try and get you to lower your prices.

I've only dabbled in commissions but am trying to take care to make sure I charge a price I can accept and I feel reflects my efforts and abilities. It is tough sometimes though, as I want people to be satisfied with the quality versus the price they pay, so there is always that little bit of pressure to charge less. Most models I paint take me in the 10-15 hour range, so my quotes usually start at $100 and go up from there (and I'm thinking of increasing that). While this will stun some potential customers it will filter out those who aren't serious, or who believe you should work for peanuts. And my prices aren't even that high as far as display level work goes, compared to some of the top people in the business (which I certainly am not).

 the_Armyman wrote:
Could this also be a symptom of the number of commission services now that primarily rely on airbrush work? I'm a decent enough painter and enjoy the hobby, but if I were to commission an army, I can count on one hand the number of people I would even consider for the job, and only a single one--Brandon at GMM--uses an airbrush for the majority of his work.

Mathieu Fontaine and Tom Schadel both use airbrush for a good portion of their work.

I have a lot of respect for long-term commission guys that have kept up with the demands of their clients, year after year.

Charge what you feel is fair for your quality of work and don't back down from it.

I am a slow painter. It can take me 2-3 hours to paint one bolter marine, much less a rhino or larger tank. A unit of 10 Space Marines is probably 25 hours of work, plus another 15 for their Rhino. That's weekend or afternoon time I'm not spending with my wife. That's time I'm not walking my dog. That's alone time, at a desk, spent on one of my various hobbies. There is no way I could put a $$$ on that time. If I compared it to vacation pay from work, I know I would get laughed at. But so what. If I were to take 40 hours of my weekend or vacation time away from time with my wife to paint something for Joe Customer, you can bet I'd want to be paid for it.

However, I don't think I could do it anyway. I enjoy painting at my own slow speed, when I feel like it. So don't ask.

Assuming the quantities of the army are typed correctly (2 x 24 fire warriors) + (2 x 24 kroot) puts the infantry well over 100 models not 60, and the total model count to 134. Which works in your favor, making the offer seem more reasonable.

However, again assuming that there wasnt a hasty dollar sign typed instead of a pound, even 134 x $25 only equals $3350. Which is about half the $6000 you quoted him, and roughly 4 times the retail cost of the lot. OP probably factors in a markup for the larger models, but i doubt it would be enough to reconcile those totals. Perhaps, even by OP's standards, the customer had a reason to question the calculations.

The "Starving Artist" trope isnt a new one; and the miniatures market seems like the worst medium to try to sustain yourself on. Limiting your customers to the high-end of a niche market which already struggles with prohibitive pricing seems like a nightmare, i wouldnt take it personally that most people misjudge the cost involved, or just arnt interested in your services.

If it helps any, you will get people who will respond that way to any type of service; car repair, home improvement, tailoring, - even important stuff like childcare, etc.

There will always be people who will complain that "they or their brother, cousin, etc. can do it cheaper, etc.". Which doesn't make sense because if they could, then they should just have them do it.

Kiwidru wrote:

However, again assuming that there wasnt a hasty dollar sign typed instead of a pound, even 134 x $25 only equals $3350. Which is about half the $6000 you quoted him, and roughly 4 times the retail cost of the lot. OP probably factors in a markup for the larger models, but i doubt it would be enough to reconcile those totals. Perhaps, even by OP's standards, the customer had a reason to question the calculations.

Are you pulling $25 as some sort of average?

Because If I wanted a quality painted hero/character, I'd expect to be paying at least $50. At least.

Based on the OP's list, here's what I'd expect to pay for something "cabinet quality", with variances per artist, of course.

1) tau ethereal - $100-$300, depending on the artist
1) battle suit commander - $150-$400, depending on the artist
2)fire warrior squads 24 models total - For "cabinet quality", $20-40 per model or $400-950 for the squad
2) kroot squads 24 models total - For "cabinet quality", $20-40 per model or $400-950 for the squad
1) unit of 10 path finders - For "cabinet quality", $20-40 per model $200-$400 for the squad
6) battle suits 2 squads of 3 - $100 -250 per model, or $300- 750 per squad
3) broadsides $150-$300 per model, or $450 - 900 total
1) riptide - $200 - 500
11) drones $10-20 per model, or $100-$200
2) hammerheads - $200 - 500 per model, or $400 - $1000 total
1) unit of 3 stealth suits - $75-$200 per model - $225 - $600 total

Which brings us to a range of about $3500 to $7000. And to be honest, if you wanted something painted by someone like Fontaine or Jen Haley or Schadle or Lovejoy Or Wappel, you can probably even up those prices. A Fontaine primarch is going to run you between $400 - $800 because he's one of the premier artists in the industry.

And based on what I've seen, Winterdyne absolutely should be commanding on the high end of that spectrum.

winterdyne wrote:

So seriously, if you're interested in hiring a professional painter, please don't be insulting about it. And if you can't afford to pay $25 per infantry figure don't ask for high level work.

 the_Armyman wrote:
Could this also be a symptom of the number of commission services now that primarily rely on airbrush work? I'm a decent enough painter and enjoy the hobby, but if I were to commission an army, I can count on one hand the number of people I would even consider for the job, and only a single one--Brandon at GMM--uses an airbrush for the majority of his work.

Let's be honest: airbrushing requires practice, but the learning curve to become good enough at it to impress most tabletop gamers is nowhere near the amount of time invested in learning how to use a brush well. Airbrushes save time, saving the customer money, and a well-airbrushed models hits enough buttons to make people believe they're getting a much higher quality job than may actually be the case.

Proper airbrushing takes longer than wet blending, because you have to tape things off and do tons of angling and airbrush control. A friend of mine wet blends like its second nature, does it faster then kids base coating with a tank brush. Airbrushing is just an easy to blend for people that cant do it, and unfortunately airbrushing is getting ragged on in every level of the hobby. Certain tournaments will actually dock you points if they notice the airbrushing, which is insane because it should matter what you do to paint the model but the final outcome. When I worked for GW I did a fully blended chaos warrior (10 hours) and a termagaunt that I used my speedy water colour technique (15 minutes) and we would constantly ask customers which is better, 9 times out of 10 people went with the gaunt for whatever reason. People get upset when you don't do things the long way, they feel like its cheating.

 Ravenous D wrote:


Proper airbrushing takes longer than wet blending, because you have to tape things off and do tons of angling and airbrush control. A friend of mine wet blends like its second nature, does it faster then kids base coating with a tank brush. Airbrushing is just an easy to blend for people that cant do it, and unfortunately airbrushing is getting ragged on in every level of the hobby. Certain tournaments will actually dock you points if they notice the airbrushing, which is insane because it should matter what you do to paint the model but the final outcome.

And additionally, being able to develop the kind of control and precision it takes to make an airbrushed paintjob look better than your average joe spraycan job, like what Giraldez or Fontaine or GMM would do, takes considerable time and effort.

$25 is pretty much bottom end of what I do. Below that is 'don't even bother asking'. That rate has little to do with the estimate in the OP.

This job was requested as 'high standard, cabinet worthy'. Make of that what you will. And yes, I charge significantly more for large vehicles as they take significantly more time than a standard infantry model as part of a batch.

As for 'starving artist' as a trope, no I'm not starving. Not getting rich either, but if I wanted to do that I'd go back into IT. Right now I prefer work and a lifestyle I actually enjoy. I don't think there are any commission artists anywhere that get particularly rich off their work. It's too time intensive.