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 cincydooley wrote:

Kiwidru wrote:

However, again assuming that there wasnt a hasty dollar sign typed instead of a pound, even 134 x $25 only equals $3350. Which is about half the $6000 you quoted him, and roughly 4 times the retail cost of the lot. OP probably factors in a markup for the larger models, but i doubt it would be enough to reconcile those totals. Perhaps, even by OP's standards, the customer had a reason to question the calculations.

Are you pulling $25 as some sort of average?

Because If I wanted a quality painted hero/character, I'd expect to be paying at least $50. At least.

Anything less then $20/hour isn't worth the time, so a stand infantry model should be $50-$60 if you want high quality painting. A 10 man unit should be $500 and about 3 weeks or less.

The other problem is the all the tools that kill themselves doing $4/hour devaluing commission painting in general. When I did body painting my crew were the only ones doing it in the city, I was making $500/week + free alcohol for the stage shows I'd do at bars, for 4 hours of work, it was awesome. But then a bunch of tools started coming in and low balling the numbers to get the jobs, last I heard these losers were making $60 in a night. Desperate and bad artists ruin it for the real artists because people (for the most part) cannot tell the difference in quality of art.

winterdyne wrote:

As for 'starving artist' as a trope, no I'm not starving. Not getting rich either, but if I wanted to do that I'd go back into IT. Right now I prefer work and a lifestyle I actually enjoy. I don't think there are any commission artists anywhere that get particularly rich off their work. It's too time intensive.

It peeves me when people bring it up, too. Talented people deserve to be compensated for that talent and all the work that's gone into developing that talent.

Like I said, your work, IMO, is near the top end of that spectrum. You deserve to be compensated for it.

Maybe you should just go work at McD's in Seattle. Get that $15/hour. /sarcasm

 Col. Tartleton wrote:
No one would expect a portrait painter to give a price based on the cost of the canvas.

Wanna bet on that?

No one should - but, trust me, there are folks out there that just want to leave the actual work involved with painting out of the equation.

The Auld Grump

Did you break the price down for the customer? $6,000 does sound like a lot but when you break it down to $10/hr it isn't jack.

Sales 101, you can't just hit a customer with a price, you need to break it down and let them know what value they are getting for their money. How much time it will take, how your work is so much better than everyone else's, all the awards you have one etc.

When I give people my consulting prices I don't just hit them with the final cost, I have to break it down as to the time and effort etc.

Sticker shock is most likely the culprit here. I definitely want to get some guys commissioned, but the price is a little out of my range at the moment. I totally value their time, I just can't justify a purchase like this right now.

We wrote:
Did you break the price down for the customer? $6,000 does sound like a lot but when you break it down to $10/hr it isn't jack.

Sales 101, you can't just hit a customer with a price, you need to break it down and let them know what value they are getting for their money. How much time it will take, how your work is so much better than everyone else's, all the awards you have one etc.

When I give people my consulting prices I don't just hit them with the final cost, I have to break it down as to the time and effort etc.

No, I do a full breakdown later in the process, first is a ballpark total and turnaround time as those are the main deal killers.

I used to got through the full quote, getting all the details and talking it all through, but I found this quote often was wasted time- several hours of drafting emails and making notes is pointless if the client hasn't got the readies to pay for the job. I now do this second, so that I know the client is at least semi serious before I spend an age picking their brains to get a handle on what they actually want.

So now I go through 3 stages before I pick up a brush, first the ballpark, then the quote / discussion, then the deposit (usually I take 10-20% of the fee plus any purchase costs). The rest of the financing is pretty flexible; nothing is due till completion, but I can take payments up during the job for larger projects, or split them up for part dispatch (useful for big armies).

The quality of work is great, superb talent for sure.

All im saying is, 1. "A thing's worth is a negotiation between the sellers value and the buyers value; if you have a product that the vast majority of the population doesnt value as much as you do, there's gonna be a lot of failed connections as one side or the other backs out of negotiations." and 2. "If i see a price advertised and then get a vastly different quote when i ask about it, it's gonna raise some red flags and probably deter me away from that purchase."

PRICING GUIDE FROM WEBSITE (based on 28-35mm Miniatures)
Single Character Model on Foot - from £75
10 basic infantry - from £125
5 heavy infantry type / complex schemes - from £100
Monster - from £100
5 Cavalry / Bike - from £150
Small Vehicle - from £70
Medium Vehicle - from £95
Large Vehicle or Large Monster - from £150

INCLUDED as standard:
Cleanup
Assembly including pinning as required
Paintwork to 'premium tabletop standard'
Decal or freehand work for basic markings
Standard Basing (gravel, sand, static grass, slate)
Detailing with spare parts, accessories
Drilling of weapon barrels

ARMY IN QUESTION.
1) tau ethereal (Single Character Model on Foot - from £75)
1) battle suit commander (Monster - from £100)
2)fire warrior squads 24 models total (20 basic infantry - from £250)
2) kroot squads 24 models total (30 basic infantry - from £375)
1) unit of 10 path finders (10 basic infantry - from £125)
6) battle suits 2 squads of 3 (10 heavy infantry type / complex schemes - from £200)
3) broadsides (3 Large Vehicle or Large Monster - from £450)
1) riptide (Large Vehicle or Large Monster - from £150)
11) drones (10 basic infantry - from £125)
2) hammerheads (2 Large Vehicle or Large Monster - from £300)
1) unit of 3 stealth suits (5 heavy infantry type / complex schemes - from £100)

(That is charging a bit more for the infantry for the sake of calculating ease, assuming the stealth and battle suits are comparable to 2 heavy infantry, and calling broadsides large monsters.)

TOTAL: £2250. Quoted price: £4,000 - £4,200

Again, the math just doesn't work out. Even when up-charging certain items, there is a discrepancy of almost 100% compared to the 'menu price'. What kind of Yutz would volunteer to get ripped off by that much? Perhaps remove/update the pricing on the webpage, that might be confusing/irritating potential customers.

The pricing on my blog is bare minimum, and you're assigning the wrong prices for some items. For example the riptide is £250 to assemble and paint (extremely complex large vehicle) battle suits are £70 each and so on. It is not, and doesn't pretend to be a menu price. It is a guideline, nothing more. I'm fairly certain I explicity say so. Oh wait, yes I do. In the first fething sentence on that page. Right before 'email for a more accurate idea'.

It does however need an update, as Ive not updated it since 2013, probably in the regions of 5-10% hike on the guide prices on everything except the single character on foot.

And again, the quote was to higher than normal standard- cabinet worthy. You again seem to be under the impression that I'm worried about a loss of business. Not the case, I have more work than I can physically do most of the time. The issue I have is that occasional idiots seem to be under the impression that I pull quotes out of the air, or that I'll do work below certain rates. The client base needs to be discouraged from unrealistic expectations for the good of not only myself, but other painters, and at the end of the day, the clients themselves.

The client claims he can get that lot painted for £500. That is unrealistic in the extreme.

The difference is that those prices are "premium tabletop standard", whereas the guy asked for "a high quality paint scheme worthy of a cabinet".

It's really a matter of perspective, because the stuff I'm really proud of and spent hours and hours on is maybe similar but more likely not even close to Winterdyne's most basic level that he's willing to do.

Kiwidru wrote:


Again, the math just doesn't work out. Even when up-charging certain items, there is a discrepancy of almost 100% compared to the 'menu price'. What kind of Yutz would volunteer to get ripped off by that much? Perhaps remove/update the pricing on the webpage, that might be confusing/irritating potential customers.

Premium Tabletop Standard vs. "Cabinet Worthy"

Additionally, it pretty clearly says "from...$$," which, to me indicates a starting point.

A starting point that would not include "Cabinet Worthy."

To be fair, thinking about it from a buyer's perspective, getting a quote that far above what the webpage suggested would be jarring. I think he overreacted, and didn't really make an effort to think about why the price was so high, but an out of context number suitable to buy a decent used car is going to trigger some reactions.

 Polonius wrote:
To be fair, thinking about it from a buyer's perspective, getting a quote that far above what the webpage suggested would be jarring. I think he overreacted, and didn't really make an effort to think about why the price was so high, but an out of context number suitable to buy a decent used car is going to trigger some reactions.

I'm definitely on Winterdyne's side of this, but I also agree with that notion. It's a big reason why I don't put prices on my commission page, just that prices are case-by-case.

I also do a similar method as Winter when I get a request: I respond with a ballpark figure to see what their response is and a lot of times I either won't hear back or I get a "Thanks, but no thanks." Once it seems like we have a tentative agreement, I deliver a price breakdown and we go from there.

Honestly, I look at painting and assembling as the fun part of the hobby for me. So when I saw your price I choked a bit. But I'm definitely not your target audience. What it has shown though is that I'm gonna stick with doing it myself, because prices to have it professionally done are not something I'd feel are of value to me, when I'm capable of painting to a level I appreciate, and it's still the driving part of the hobby for me. But if people truly want to get commission work, they should do their homework of what prices are involved.

I didn't mean any offense, and no, I have no investment or interest in you get more/fewer commissions. I'm just a proletariat that would proudly display anything from the website gallery in my cabinite, if I had such a thing. And personally I didn't know their was a difference in grade between the "premium table top standard" and the "cabinite worthy". From the way yall are talking about it I assume it's analogous to Mint and Near-Mint in cards?

I don't care at all what you charge, and judging by the gallery, I'm positive it would be the highest caliber. However, If I walked into a car dealership and saw a listed price on it, When I further inquired, i would expect that to be a baseline, and not be told that technically what I ordered was some other, more expensive model, or that it was common practice for the merchant to add 10% once I got the bill, it would irk me much more than just knowing what I was getting into from the beginning.. For instance you said the riptide would be 250? That, to me, would be classified under the large monster. Especially, since there is no "extremely complex large vehicle" option publically visible. So immediately the customer is gonna be like, "Wtf bro, where did you get that price?" Thats a natural reaction to that situation. I'm just trying to help, but my insinuations indicating, "if your problem is idiot customers expecting prices that are below what you charge, address the idiot that is misinforming them about your prices." Are reluctantly getting more blatant. Alternatively, you could just be like the really fancy restaurant of painters; remove the prices and it'll be one of those, "if you need to ask the price, you can't afford it." situations.

I tease of course, and although I don't know any of those other painters, if I won the lottery Id totally pony up and commission something from you, so let's end this on a good note, just in case

The Aztec army is a work of art, and have been following it in the P&M forum. The decals, color mix, and cultural reference work really well, and have been fairly unexplored within the community, which is also impressive. Have a great day, shake us haters off, I'm out!

Kiwidru wrote:
From the way yall are talking about it I assume it's analogous to Mint and Near-Mint in cards?

Assuming PSA grading, it'd be more akin to Mint (cabinet quality) and "Very Good-Excellent" (what tabletop standard for winter's work would end up being). So there's actually a few grades in-between what would commonly be the definition of the two, especially when discussing armies versus single models where unifying theme and details become a concern. In the sports world when dealing with a rare product (e.g. - a rookie card of a hall of famer), such grade differences can be thousands of dollars difference in value. That's pretty much the same here.

Kiwidru wrote:
I don't care at all what you charge, and judging by the gallery, I'm positive it would be the highest caliber. However, If I walked into a car dealership and saw a listed price on it, When I further inquired, i would expect that to be a baseline, and not be told that technically what I ordered was some other, more expensive model, or that it was common practice for the merchant to add 10% once I got the bill, it would irk me much more than just knowing what I was getting into from the beginning.. For instance you said the riptide would be 250? That, to me, would be classified under the large monster. Especially, since there is no "extremely complex large vehicle" option publically visible. So immediately the customer is gonna be like, "Wtf bro, where did you get that price?" Thats a natural reaction to that situation. I'm just trying to help, but my insinuations indicating, "if your problem is idiot customers expecting prices that are below what you charge, address the idiot that is misinforming them about your prices." Are reluctantly getting more blatant. Alternatively, you could just be like the really fancy restaurant of painters; remove the prices and it'll be one of those, "if you need to ask the price, you can't afford it." situations.

A stronger analogy would be going to the dealership to say "I saw on TV that you have Jaguars starting at $29K" and then finding out that the Jaguar you wanted with the options you wanted would have to special-ordered and would come to a total of $86K plus shipping from the factory. Yes, the baseline "starts at" amount X, but when you want to jump 3-4 grades above the baseline the price makes a similar jump in most situations.

Not that I disagree that there's a bit of sticker shock at play, but I think that's something of the point too. It's a test of commitment to the project; if you're frightened off by money, then the time and periodic nature of progress will get to you as well and cause you create more problems than your hypothetical project is worth. Remember, the time spent creating a quote, preparing update pictures and emails are all (rightfully) expected to be included, but that administrative time is not free. Time is a zero-sum game wherein the time spent creating a detailed and explained quote is time not spent on another project or...horror of horrors...actually doing something for himself and those he cares about. If the price scares them off, not worth the time to go much futher than that initial eyeballing. Also a pretty standard practice with skilled labor in my experience.

Overall I have to agree with winterdyne. If you're paying a commissioned painter, you're getting them to do something that you are unable (for any number of reasons such as time, ability, experience, etc.) to do yourself. I know that when I do my (terribly painted) models, that it will take me roughly 3-5 hours of time per model. Measured against how I would value my free time, that's about $60-100 per model. Yes, that just gets too pricey for me because I like having my badly painted models (Yes, they're bad, but they're MINE. ). If I was to employ someone though, that's the premium I'd expect to be paying to get my free time back AND get the models that I would have been painting in said recovered free time.

Something about eating your cake and having it too springs to mind here. I can have my free time, or I can have my money; trying to have both at once is really not going to end well.

The main issue is always perception. What one person views as "high quality paint scheme worthy of a cabinet" may really just be what others think is Premium Tabletop Standard. This is often where people start complaining about "Levels" and why one commissioned Level 3 could be completely different than another persons Level 3. There isn't a standard to judge these by, there isn't even really a tabletop standard per say... because what looks good to one person, may not to others.

Premium "of exceptional quality or greater value than others of its kind; superior:" could imply that it is better than tabletop standard. There are a lot of really good tabletop standards out there that photograph well and look higher quality, until you take a closer look at the miniatures. I believe the term used is that it passes the 3ft test, looking good on the table from the distance. Most people wouldn't put their Tabletop in a cabinet but we also don't know how the person asking stores their miniatures. We have all made the assumptions that cabinet means a display cabinet but since we don't know what that person deems high quality, it may be filled with what others just call tabletop.

It makes it harder when people look at a someone's gallery and there is not reference as to what the painter deems that quality as. When you look at a gallery and see a price list, people can make an assumption that is what you would get. Some people will put prices at a different levels and show pictures of the levels, which does help. Some will go into more detail outlining that the quality is X amount of base colors, tint/feathering, highlight color and wash. But even with a more detailed description the quality will vary.

There is also a misconception on how much time it takes to paint something. People can watch a 30 minute video of a paint job with a Marine and assumes it only takes 30 minutes. They are forgetting the assembly, primering and drying time which usually isn't in the video. Some videos fast forward and others show the painting real time, but may cut some of the frames out for the video length portraying a fast time. There are others who air brush and so people think if you air brush, you can paint twice as fast.. that isn't necessarily the case.

In terms of the subjective nature of quality of "levels", I understand that it's a valid argument in reality because all of this stems from a lack of consumer information. In an ideal world though, if you were going to hire someone to do most any kind of work you've vetted them by examining their work and thus have a reasonable working knowledge of what their performance is like (adjusting that things THEY present are of course in the best light possible). Thus when you contact them to engage their services you know if they're 1) capable of the work you require and 2) have a decent-ish idea of how your project compares against the levels they exhibit.

Now, in the world we actually live in, few people put in that amount of effort I suspect because many don't know how to value the work as illustrated by the OP. If you told someone they would be spending thousands of dollars/pounds, they'd likely launch into due diligence quite readily (though as tenebre showed, sometimes that doesn't pan out). Since they think the cost of the models should be the most expensive part, they don't look into it much more than a cursory glance. Reality becomes a bucket of cold water to the face at that point.

Still, if I ever win the lottery I'll have winterdyne paint all my stuff; I should only need to toss in a second mortgage to afford it (that's not a knock on price; I just have a lot of stuff...GW alone is in excess of 3K models).

This sort of thing happens in any sort of skilled trade. I have paid for 2 collisions of single foot sloggers/basic infantry. One was the collisions middle level and the other was of its highest quality. Together they cost me something like £60. Don't get me wrong I was happy with the work but I did it to see what my models would look like. Photos do look different to the model in your hand.

If I was to have bought a squads worth then I personally would have gone for the middle of the range option. Yes the top level with its 4 highlights and crazy good blending looked amaze halls. The mid range also looked much better than what I could produce at the time. I never did go through with it. I had to weigh up having a nice painted squad or purchase a bunch of stuff and badly paint it myself.

The top level gd winning comission isn't the only option. It baffles me when people ask for the best and then get shocked by the premium price. I personally would have messaged back saying something akin to "well that price is for top level work. If U want something cheaper I could paint them at "x" level which would look like [insert image]

I'm a mobile mechanic by trade for the last 4 years. I'm vat registered and all my work has a warranty. I have 2 vans, both sign written and 1 paid staff member for bigger jobs with uniforms for both of us. I have a standard hourly labour rate and I now have enough experience to give a figure on the spot of how long it will take regardless of if the job runs over. I used to have a heavy presence on Facebook as there's a lot of potential clients on there. I now stay mostly quiet because people would be asking for a 4 hour job and were insulted by my pricing. They would rather some random hobbyist come and do the job for pittence who will turn up with an assortment of basic tools, will only be paid in cas without providing receipt or invoice. I eventually just stopped and post an advert for myself every now and then.

I have ended up going to customers and fixing/finishing the jobs from cowboys. I can't understand it. If you want quality work, you're going to have to pay quality prices. You want it done cheap by a non professional then don't come crying to me asking for help when not 1 week earlier i was called out as a rip off merchant.

The internet has turned a lot of skilled professions into a place for hobbyists to thrive. A lot of people these days only see the price in front of them. feth everything else

In terms of levels, it's almost impossible to break it down by technique. A 5 or 6 layer feathering job may not look as smooth as a fast wet blend. It may be better for the effect desired. So I basically just offer 'what I put on the table', 'show off a bit / push it' and 'balls out competitive'. Most of what I do is what I put on the table. I don't work below that as I find it difficult to not do something that I like the look of. Other than time (and lots of it) often there's actually little visible difference. Blends a bit smoother, edges a bit neater, but all in all unless you're really looking, or aiming to take photos (I do a bit of studio work now and then) there's not much in it. I advise against the higher end of stuff if my opinion is asked.

That is to say, the quote I gave was middle range; I have scored a few GD finalists in squad at that sort of level, but its not really competitive.

A full on golden demon attempt would be significantly more- Taking the riptide as example, that probably work out close to £1,200 on its own. It'd be bloody nice though. You have to be a bit mad to commission competitive level stuff. There are folks that do it though.

Johnson & The Juice Crew wrote:


The top level gd winning comission isn't the only option. It baffles me when people ask for the best and then get shocked by the premium price. I personally would have messaged back saying something akin to "well that price is for top level work. If U want something cheaper I could paint them at "x" level which would look like [insert image]

I think some people don't seem to understand the meaning of the phrase "You get what you pay for" and it seems to be most prevalent in the art world. You'll get people who ask for really big things and they are shocked when they get a quote i think they judge it on how long it would take them or how long they think it takes over any realistic expectations. When you are asking for top class work you are asking a lot and a person will quote accordingly. It's like if i get a tattoo maybe three shops will quote much less than the guy that came recommended and has a reputation for high quality work but will they do it as well? I might pay more but the work will be bloody good.

If i was going to get model commissions done I'd want it to be good to be worth it so I'm unlikely to take a chance on unproven cheap options much like i won't get a tattoo someplace who quoted it cheapest. Customers naturally look for a bargain and the best deal but there are things in life you shouldn't settle for less on and i think art is one of them. If you want an art commission look for a pro it might cost more than you expect but they will take care of you and you are most likely going to be happy with the results. But yeah I'm sure there are better ways to handle it than asking for the best possible quality and then scoffing at the price quoted.

I guess it really comes down to: are you getting work?
If so, the prices are right if it is keeping you busy (too busy you may want to look at raising them).

I have seen / met too many people who would complain if the service is free and want you to pay them for the honor of painting their models.
I would think your pricing could be used to "thwart the barbarians at the moat" to keep the people looking for an outrageous deal at bay.
The less haggle-room you give can allow you to spend more time with the clients you want.

This will help reduce the rage inducing exposure of these fun individuals.
Comments of this nature translate into "I cannot afford your service and am angry for you making me feel this way... YOU MUST PAY!".

Keep calm carry on.

If you want high end, high end costs high end money.

If I wanted a high quality character model done for me, I'm under no illusion that your easy looking at 100% of the kit price on top at a min cost for basic levels, yet alone top level.

The kit price is irrelevant; especially if you work on a range of manufacturers. The only thing that matters is time.

These units are a good example of my bottom end tabletop level:



The kit price on that is under £10 per unit, including the bases and movement tray. And the metal models in the men at arms.
Probably about 15 hours per unit average from sprue to photo table - those are what I charge at about £125 - £140 each.

It's interesting that you commented with the kit price - I do sometimes see new painters saying they charge kit price on top and it really is a recipe for disaster in my opinion.

In the grand scheme of things i imagine the kit price is pretty pointless to charge for especially when they are such minor cost against the labour cost or people would start charging per cost of paint and glue used plus materials and you'd have a cost breakdown a mile long XD. That kind of looks funny in my head,

Even that basic tabletop standard work puts any of my best efforts to shame. Just started back with the Hobby after many years so I'm way out of practice but even when i used to paint an army i couldn't even manage something which looks as good as that.

I can't imagine what kit price would have to do with painting price. I mean, look at DE Grotesques in comparison with Warriors. The Warriors are going to be vastly cheaper per unit, but $100 of Warriors is going to be WAY mor work intensive to paint than $100 of Grotesques.

Just from the list, the price did seem really high. (It's also the first full quote I've ever seen from a commission painter.) I could definitely understand some jaw-dropping shock at the number. (I reread the post a few times because I was sure I was missing some units or misreading the number.) But the client's response is unbelievably rude. I've encountered similar people on pretty much every auction/trade site; they actually seem to make up the majority of people. I can even understand contacting a seller/trader and politely asking for an explanation as to their reasoning on their asking price (and unsurprisingly enough, usually get an unbelievably rude response when I do so), but there is no call to be uncivil.

If you don't like the price, walk away. If the is a huge gap between your expected prices, ask one another how you're arriving at your mental prices. There is ZERO reason to act like a knob.

Oh that wasn't a full quote, just the ballpark estimate. And it's a huge job - I'd guess easily 4 months full time on it.

A full quote comes later in the process, after discussion of the project, what's involved, and covers everything from the base fees, any special conversion budget (minor conversions are included in my basic fee), model costs (if I'm buying them) and what's due when. For example, if the client here wanted NMM chrome effect on everything that'd put the price up hugely. If he wanted digital camo, that'd have put it up a bit. The specifics of a job can change the fee a bit.

The usual thing I get asked for that costs extra is brass etch foliage on bases, and that's just a materials cost (I don't charge for using it).

Not surprisingly - your bottom end starts where my top end ends. Lol.

 KiloFiX wrote:
Not surprisingly - your bottom end starts where my top end ends. Lol.

Yeah, no kidding. I've seen worse looking models win best painted awards.

winterdyne wrote:


It's interesting that you commented with the kit price - I do sometimes see new painters saying they charge kit price on top and it really is a recipe for disaster in my opinion.

I think that is because it is often what customers offer, and if you don't know any better, you accept it and then eventually wise up.

I know when I started, I charged the set of the kit to paint. At the time, my time was 'worthless' and it kept me growing my collection and stocking my paints for minimal cost. But I was probably working for like 2$ an hour. It is fine when you are 19 and just having fun as a hobby.

Having seen Winterdyne's He is getting a bargin! But I say that after seeing the breakdown and all, if he hadnt broke it down I would have been flabbergasted! Did the customer know how long you would roughly take? if so his rudeness seems less understandable.
Seriously though as a bad paniter who cranks out a shoddy model very quickly I used to have the assumption that a skilled painter took the same time for better results, i.e I would spend X hours on a model and expect winterdynes amazing work to also take the same time where in reality it would take like twice that.
Its all ignorance, people who havent seen the breakdown and/or explanation of a skilled commision painter expect the work to take half the time it does and half the skill so like a quater of the price