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2015/03/12 18:03:17
Subject: Re:It is Finished. The Winners of the Great Game.
Wha... um... 'bathwater'? You mean all that rich background that people are mourning, or something else?
Yep, a lot of it can be rehashed for my money. There's just too much, it's too old, I'm sure the weight of it must be a burden that actually stops new fluff being as good as it could be.
...how so? I'm genuinely curious, the background was always my favorite part and I tended to like the older stuff more. What would you have changed?
The background has been exactly the fething same for decades now. It's not as though an end of new content for that world invalidates your enjoyment of it. You can continue to love it in exactly the same static, unchanging state it's been in since the beginning. Just now that story has a nice, clean (and comparably well-written) ending to it, and the rest of us can go about enjoying NEW fluff. I for one am excited to see a world where the conflict isn't entirely driven by the clock being stuck at 2 minutes to midnight for all of eternity.
Not sure if serious then I saw you write well written and I knew you were trolling/blindly defending the faith.
Also there's a 99% chance the new setting starts at some grim dark 2 minutes till the end again situation, it's all GW are able to write.
Your last point is especially laughable and comical, because not only the 7th ed Valkyrie shown dumber things (like being able to throw the troopers without parachutes out of its hatches, no harm done) - Irbis
2015/03/12 19:23:19
Subject: Re:It is Finished. The Winners of the Great Game.
Wha... um... 'bathwater'? You mean all that rich background that people are mourning, or something else?
Yep, a lot of it can be rehashed for my money. There's just too much, it's too old, I'm sure the weight of it must be a burden that actually stops new fluff being as good as it could be.
...how so? I'm genuinely curious, the background was always my favorite part and I tended to like the older stuff more. What would you have changed?
The background has been exactly the fething same for decades now. It's not as though an end of new content for that world invalidates your enjoyment of it. You can continue to love it in exactly the same static, unchanging state it's been in since the beginning. Just now that story has a nice, clean (and comparably well-written) ending to it, and the rest of us can go about enjoying NEW fluff. I for one am excited to see a world where the conflict isn't entirely driven by the clock being stuck at 2 minutes to midnight for all of eternity.
Not sure if serious then I saw you write well written and I knew you were trolling/blindly defending the faith.
Also there's a 99% chance the new setting starts at some grim dark 2 minutes till the end again situation, it's all GW are able to write.
I pretty much agree with PRN-o'-Death on this one. I have loved the theme, the flavour and everything but the world has been fundamentally unchanged for so long. I don't begrudge the story an ending if it means we can get a fresh start. I feel like something new isn't going to harm what has already been established. The Warhammer world has been a fixed point of reference in my mind since I was sixteen; the creation of something new doesn't threaten that.
In terms of the literary quality of the ending, what I've seen of End Times is, in general, no better or worse than GW average - which means I've pretty much enjoyed it. That's cos I'm into the game, not because anyone thinks it's Shakespeare.
Please imagine I wrote something funny here.....Something bloody hillarious....
....I know I didn't but lets pretend....
.....Smile, look at who posted the words that are making you happy, remember my name. Feel free to admire my wit. Aspire to emulate my good natured bonhomie.
2015/03/12 20:16:04
Subject: It is Finished. The Winners of the Great Game.
I still don't get why some people wanted the story to advance. I've been into the fluff of 40K and WHFB for almost 20 years now and never once felt the need for the stories to advance.
But different strokes I guess.
Bye bye Dakkadakka, happy hobbying! I really enjoyed my time on here. Opinions were always my own :-)
2015/03/12 20:31:11
Subject: Re:It is Finished. The Winners of the Great Game.
Spinner wrote:I think we might disagree on the "well-written" part.
And don't mistake me, I would have liked to see things change, but...y'know. Not wiped away. Add to the story, don't end it. I never saw the Warhammer world as stuck at two minutes to midnight, unlike 40k - the apocalypse happened in sixth and seventh edition, Archaon turned up and wrecked most of the northern empire, and the cool part was that people picked up their lives afterward and got on with them. Things were more dangerous, cities were in ruin, warbands of beastmen and greenskins were lurking in the forests, and the Empire nearly underwent a religious schism, but it was still recognizable as the same world. More of that, please!
I know that I'm not changing anything by grumbling over the internet, just getting my opinion out there. I fully intend to still appreciate the setting I love, but it's disappointing that it isn't the official one any more and I won't be getting excited over...I don't know, a campaign focused on the Dark Lands or miniature releases specifically for the Border Princes. Glad you're enjoying the direction they've taken!
"Comparatively" well-written. It's corporate fantasy...let's be realistic about what our standards are here.
As for WHFB prior to this, the plot has progressed basically not at all since the beginning. Archaon got a fancy hat. We got more detail on how Beastmen smear gak onto things. Undead were split and their fluff retconned. That's...about it.
I know a lot of dedicated fluff players who stopped reading the fluff in new books. It was just the same stuff, rehashed. Again. And Again. And Again.
If you like the old setting then there's 30 years of lore for you to enjoy. As I said before, it's not going anywhere and it's exactly the way you like it. But the rest of us were bored, and we appreciate seeing something new. How is this not a win-win?
Fezman wrote:30 years of fluff straight in the bin with a total anticlimax. Once upon a time the forces of Chaos were about to devour the world. So they did. The end.
You haven't even read the book yet! How can you say that 5 voluminous fluff books are an "anticlimax"? They're ending the world. It was written on the tin. Story is over. Now go back and enjoy it all again if you want, or wait to see whatever new stuff they cook up. If you want to keep the old world then just keep going in that setting. Or do an army in an old setting.
Wha... um... 'bathwater'? You mean all that rich background that people are mourning, or something else?
Yep, a lot of it can be rehashed for my money. There's just too much, it's too old, I'm sure the weight of it must be a burden that actually stops new fluff being as good as it could be.
...how so? I'm genuinely curious, the background was always my favorite part and I tended to like the older stuff more. What would you have changed?
The background has been exactly the fething same for decades now. It's not as though an end of new content for that world invalidates your enjoyment of it. You can continue to love it in exactly the same static, unchanging state it's been in since the beginning. Just now that story has a nice, clean (and comparably well-written) ending to it, and the rest of us can go about enjoying NEW fluff. I for one am excited to see a world where the conflict isn't entirely driven by the clock being stuck at 2 minutes to midnight for all of eternity.
Not sure if serious then I saw you write well written and I knew you were trolling/blindly defending the faith.
Also there's a 99% chance the new setting starts at some grim dark 2 minutes till the end again situation, it's all GW are able to write.
I said "comparatively well-written." It's not winning any Hugo awards, but it's on the level of the Horus Heresy books, the Forgotten Realms fluff, and well above all the stuff previously written for WHFB. Gotta be real about what we're expecting, here.
2015/03/12 21:16:39
Subject: Re:It is Finished. The Winners of the Great Game.
Spinner wrote:I think we might disagree on the "well-written" part.
And don't mistake me, I would have liked to see things change, but...y'know. Not wiped away. Add to the story, don't end it. I never saw the Warhammer world as stuck at two minutes to midnight, unlike 40k - the apocalypse happened in sixth and seventh edition, Archaon turned up and wrecked most of the northern empire, and the cool part was that people picked up their lives afterward and got on with them. Things were more dangerous, cities were in ruin, warbands of beastmen and greenskins were lurking in the forests, and the Empire nearly underwent a religious schism, but it was still recognizable as the same world. More of that, please!
I know that I'm not changing anything by grumbling over the internet, just getting my opinion out there. I fully intend to still appreciate the setting I love, but it's disappointing that it isn't the official one any more and I won't be getting excited over...I don't know, a campaign focused on the Dark Lands or miniature releases specifically for the Border Princes. Glad you're enjoying the direction they've taken!
"Comparatively" well-written. It's corporate fantasy...let's be realistic about what our standards are here.
As for WHFB prior to this, the plot has progressed basically not at all since the beginning. Archaon got a fancy hat. We got more detail on how Beastmen smear gak onto things. Undead were split and their fluff retconned. That's...about it.
I know a lot of dedicated fluff players who stopped reading the fluff in new books. It was just the same stuff, rehashed. Again. And Again. And Again.
If you like the old setting then there's 30 years of lore for you to enjoy. As I said before, it's not going anywhere and it's exactly the way you like it. But the rest of us were bored, and we appreciate seeing something new. How is this not a win-win?
Fezman wrote:30 years of fluff straight in the bin with a total anticlimax. Once upon a time the forces of Chaos were about to devour the world. So they did. The end.
You haven't even read the book yet! How can you say that 5 voluminous fluff books are an "anticlimax"? They're ending the world. It was written on the tin. Story is over. Now go back and enjoy it all again if you want, or wait to see whatever new stuff they cook up. If you want to keep the old world then just keep going in that setting. Or do an army in an old setting.
Wha... um... 'bathwater'? You mean all that rich background that people are mourning, or something else?
Yep, a lot of it can be rehashed for my money. There's just too much, it's too old, I'm sure the weight of it must be a burden that actually stops new fluff being as good as it could be.
...how so? I'm genuinely curious, the background was always my favorite part and I tended to like the older stuff more. What would you have changed?
The background has been exactly the fething same for decades now. It's not as though an end of new content for that world invalidates your enjoyment of it. You can continue to love it in exactly the same static, unchanging state it's been in since the beginning. Just now that story has a nice, clean (and comparably well-written) ending to it, and the rest of us can go about enjoying NEW fluff. I for one am excited to see a world where the conflict isn't entirely driven by the clock being stuck at 2 minutes to midnight for all of eternity.
Not sure if serious then I saw you write well written and I knew you were trolling/blindly defending the faith.
Also there's a 99% chance the new setting starts at some grim dark 2 minutes till the end again situation, it's all GW are able to write.
I said "comparatively well-written." It's not winning any Hugo awards, but it's on the level of the Horus Heresy books, the Forgotten Realms fluff, and well above all the stuff previously written for WHFB. Gotta be real about what we're expecting, here.
Because the ending is "Chaos wins. World Ends. Kthxbai." It's what we all knew would happen, but instead of them ending it with a bang, they did it with a whimper.
As for WHFB prior to this, the plot has progressed basically not at all since the beginning. Archaon got a fancy hat. We got more detail on how Beastmen smear gak onto things. Undead were split and their fluff retconned. That's...about it.
I know a lot of dedicated fluff players who stopped reading the fluff in new books. It was just the same stuff, rehashed. Again. And Again. And Again.
If you like the old setting then there's 30 years of lore for you to enjoy. As I said before, it's not going anywhere and it's exactly the way you like it. But the rest of us were bored, and we appreciate seeing something new. How is this not a win-win?
Like I said, I plan on doing exactly that, but it's kinda sad that they aren't going to be exploring some of the less-covered areas of the map. Sure, if you just read the army books, it's all the same stuff with some new bits thrown in. Some of the new bits were pretty good, but there's no denying that's what they did. That's what fit their 're-release and update' business model. But what about, say, some of the stuff in the RPGs? There's some absolute gold in there, much more than beastmen pooping on stuff or rehash after rehash. What about some of the better Black Library stuff? Skarsnik was pretty fantastic, you can't tell me the final page of the End Times fluff that keeps cropping up is on par with that.
I would have loved for things to have been expanded, not rebooted. There's this great map of a chunk of the Warhammer world...spoilered for size!
Spoiler:
They had this giant sandbox of a world to play in - setting-wise, it's so much smaller than, say, 40k, but all of the 'here be dragons' bits made it feel larger, at least to me. Wouldn't it have been cool to see what they could have come up with for some of those places? And now they won't. THAT'S why it isn't a win-win. Maybe they'll think up something just as cool, but I'm not optimistic. All the rumors point to trimming off the edges of the map so they can focus on their top selling-stuff. And, y'know, fair play to them. I can't force them to make a product I'm interested in, just like they can't force me to put up with all of their associated crap to buy one I don't like.
I really am happy for you, though! Glad they're selling what you want. Although I have to ask - if you were so bored with it...wouldn't a more win-win sort of situation be you picking up a different setting, rather than this one getting exploded?
2015/03/12 21:39:46
Subject: Re:It is Finished. The Winners of the Great Game.
As for WHFB prior to this, the plot has progressed basically not at all since the beginning. Archaon got a fancy hat. We got more detail on how Beastmen smear gak onto things. Undead were split and their fluff retconned. That's...about it.
I know a lot of dedicated fluff players who stopped reading the fluff in new books. It was just the same stuff, rehashed. Again. And Again. And Again.
If you like the old setting then there's 30 years of lore for you to enjoy. As I said before, it's not going anywhere and it's exactly the way you like it. But the rest of us were bored, and we appreciate seeing something new. How is this not a win-win?
Like I said, I plan on doing exactly that, but it's kinda sad that they aren't going to be exploring some of the less-covered areas of the map. Sure, if you just read the army books, it's all the same stuff with some new bits thrown in. Some of the new bits were pretty good, but there's no denying that's what they did. That's what fit their 're-release and update' business model. But what about, say, some of the stuff in the RPGs? There's some absolute gold in there, much more than beastmen pooping on stuff or rehash after rehash. What about some of the better Black Library stuff? Skarsnik was pretty fantastic, you can't tell me the final page of the End Times fluff that keeps cropping up is on par with that.
I would have loved for things to have been expanded, not rebooted. There's this great map of a chunk of the Warhammer world...spoilered for size!
Spoiler:
They had this giant sandbox of a world to play in - setting-wise, it's so much smaller than, say, 40k, but all of the 'here be dragons' bits made it feel larger, at least to me. Wouldn't it have been cool to see what they could have come up with for some of those places? And now they won't. THAT'S why it isn't a win-win. Maybe they'll think up something just as cool, but I'm not optimistic. All the rumors point to trimming off the edges of the map so they can focus on their top selling-stuff. And, y'know, fair play to them. I can't force them to make a product I'm interested in, just like they can't force me to put up with all of their associated crap to buy one I don't like.
I really am happy for you, though! Glad they're selling what you want. Although I have to ask - if you were so bored with it...wouldn't a more win-win sort of situation be you picking up a different setting, rather than this one getting exploded?
The issue is that there's only so much that is appropriate for insertion into a tabletop wargame.
Fact of the matter is that most people don't read fluff, and the majority of the ones that do only read what's in their particular army book. That places strict bounds on what you can do that most people will enjoy. The more fleshed out a world gets too, the more rigid it becomes. Giving dwarfs a more dynamic playstyle means fundamentally altering their fluff. Ditto to lots of the other races. How do you justify Khemri invading into the Chaos Wastes when the fluff justification isn't there at all?
There's no denying that WHFB isn't a great setting...but its utility as a setting for a tabletop wargame was largely worn out. It would be a great setting for an RPG, or a series of video games / MMO <cough>, etc., but for a tabletop wargame it needed a refresh.
Also people keep pointing to the final page of the book as the "whimper," but there are 5 voluminous tomes that led up to that one single page which have been - in the words of every person I know who has actually read the whole thing cover-to-cover - pretty awesome.
The TL;DR is that any "expansion" they could do onto the world wouldn't be of much benefit to the tabletop game, and few would appreciate it save fluff die hards like yourself. The rest of us want better fluff in our armybooks, and the current world wrote them into a corner.
As for the win-win, your setting is still there. It's just not getting anything new. Which is unfortunate, but you can still continue to craft stories in it. I would have rathered seeing an alternative setting instead, kind of like Eberron vs. Forgotten Realms, but such is life. I once heard a wise man say that "Art is never finished, it is merely abandoned." At some point the authors need to call it "good enough" and move on, and I think WHFB reached that point. End Times was a great send-off, but I look forward to the new setting whatever it may be.
2015/03/12 21:59:03
Subject: Re:It is Finished. The Winners of the Great Game.
Again, I dunno. I don't disagree about GW needing to do things differently...but I don't think fundamentally changing the setting is the answer. They have the same problems in 40k - rehashed fluff, isolated factions (okay, mostly the Tau, but most of the Warhammer factions had a pretty decent reason to turn up wherever - some dumb Norscan raider walked off with a longship full of artifacts and now there's tomb barques rowing up the fjords, for example - there ya go, narrative forged), and a lot of concepts that they aren't willing to discard. That's not going to change because they burned down the setting. It's a consistent business style for them. They'll just keep running into the same problems further down the road. They're not going to stop the 're-release books over and over' model, so they're either going to have to keep repeating fluff or change each faction every time the next edition comes out.
An alternative setting WOULD have been a win-win. Y'know what? I would have loved a skirmish-based game set in the Chaos Wastes with all the weird stuff people are talking about ninth having. Okay, maybe not all the limited edition models, but patches of reality and so forth...they already had that setting raring to go. Chaos warbands and foolhardy expeditions from further south clashing...I'd have played that in a shot, and they didn't have to break the world to do it.
With regards to why everyone's focused on the last page...honestly, from my point of view, it's pretty terrible. "These truly were the End Times. But they were also the beginning." I mean...really? Sorry if you like it, it just sounds...yeah. That's not a great way to finish off an apocalypse - and one that, in my mind, really didn't fit the tone of the world. Morrsleib was blown up, the Lizardmen took off in magic spaceships, heroes got the essence of magic itself bound into them for a power-up...these are concepts I can see working in someones D&D campaign, they're not necessarily bad, but they just don't fit the Grim World of Perilous Adventure aesthetic that I've always associated with Warhammer. Maybe we both got different things out of the setting, I don't know.
And I could see expansions doing pretty well! Release them like the supplement things they have in 40k. You get a Kurgan or Hung cavalry army for Chaos, a Cathay army you can use with your Empire book...Southlands Lizardmen...that kind of stuff.
2015/03/12 22:23:15
Subject: It is Finished. The Winners of the Great Game.
I actually wanted them to go micro on the fluff. I love my empire, but I could care less reading about all the super exploits of Ludwig Schwarzhelm and his oiled mustachio...
I wanted fluff on the different districts in Altdorf, stories of what it's like to be a beggar or thief there. I wanted maps of towns. Explanations of how villages defend themselves against raids. Structures of Empire regiments and standing armies etc etc etc
I'm sure lots of people would have liked that for their respective armies too. Most of the fluff in the armybooks is either historic or about special characters, which are the parts that bore me the most. There was SO much scope for fleshing out each faction and keeping the army book fluff fresh in my opinion.
I can only hope in 9th they focus more on that sorta stuff now that the superhero convention got all the special characters killed off...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/12 22:23:45
Bye bye Dakkadakka, happy hobbying! I really enjoyed my time on here. Opinions were always my own :-)
2015/03/12 22:48:51
Subject: Re:It is Finished. The Winners of the Great Game.
Spinner wrote:I would have loved for things to have been expanded, not rebooted. There's this great map of a chunk of the Warhammer world...
They had this giant sandbox of a world to play in - setting-wise, it's so much smaller than, say, 40k, but all of the 'here be dragons' bits made it feel larger, at least to me. Wouldn't it have been cool to see what they could have come up with for some of those places? And now they won't.
I know just what you mean. I love fantasy maps. They show you all these mysterious exotic places, as you say, but also 'solidify' the setting in a way. Warhammer maps are no different. I still have the big world map that came with WD #300, and I won't get rid of that no matter how rubbish or how unrecognisable WFB becomes. But now all the blank bits, for all intents and purposes, aren't even blank bits anymore.
Spinner wrote:(...some dumb Norscan raider walked off with a longship full of artifacts and now there's tomb barques rowing up the fjords, for example - there ya go, narrative forged)
They'll just keep running into the same problems further down the road. They're not going to stop the 're-release books over and over' model, so they're either going to have to keep repeating fluff or change each faction every time the next edition comes out.
Well said. I'd suggest that repeated fluff isn't the real problem there, so much as the culture of rules churn that GW built up and that GW fans now expect. Yeah, it'd be nice if they prodded the fluff on a wee bit every time, but it's not entirely necessary when the actual purpose is to switch around how cavalry acts yet again or to prompt you to buy more minis for a horde or three.
Y'know what? I would have loved a skirmish-based game set in the Chaos Wastes with all the weird stuff people are talking about ninth having. Okay, maybe not all the limited edition models, but patches of reality and so forth...they already had that setting raring to go. Chaos warbands and foolhardy expeditions from further south clashing...I'd have played that in a shot, and they didn't have to break the world to do it.
They made that! I mean, besides ye olde 3rd ed Realms of Chaos stuff. There were WD rules about the time of Storm of Chaos, for building up a Chaos warband and levelling them up through a campaign system. After a quick google, it looks like they were updated from RoC's Path to Glory subgame. See here. Looks like the full PDF of WD rules is online, though as I'm not sure about Dakka's policy I won't link them. Not difficult to find, though.
With regards to why everyone's focused on the last page...honestly, from my point of view, it's pretty terrible. "These truly were the End Times. But they were also the beginning." I mean...really? Sorry if you like it, it just sounds...yeah.
It screams 'rushed afterthought'. "Hey, we've got to finish up that old crap before we schill the new stuff to them. Can you sort it?" "Oh yeah. Give me, like, three seconds. Two tops," *Clickyclickettyclick* "There. Shakespeare eat your heart out."
And I could see expansions doing pretty well! Release them like the supplement things they have in 40k. You get a Kurgan or Hung cavalry army for Chaos, a Cathay army you can use with your Empire book...Southlands Lizardmen...that kind of stuff.
Again, a lot of the kind of stuff that used to appear in WD. Last time I ever bothered to start building a WFB army was for the Skaven Hell Pit list from... how many years ago now?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bottle wrote: I actually wanted them to go micro on the fluff. I love my empire, but I could care less reading about all the super exploits of Ludwig Schwarzhelm and his oiled mustachio...
I wanted fluff on the different districts in Altdorf, stories of what it's like to be a beggar or thief there. I wanted maps of towns. Explanations of how villages defend themselves against raids. Structures of Empire regiments and standing armies etc etc etc
That too! I got laughed at for buying the Empire uniforms and heraldry book, and the Skaven one, but they fire off the imagination in a bunch of small, interesting ways. And some of the most engrossing Warhammer fluff I found online was a map of Marienburg and a description of it's districts, from old WFRP books I suppose. I imagine you'd still find a lot of that in more recent WFRP books, but, well, I'd have to go see if they're still in print, and if they do have the same kind of 'mundane' details.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/12 22:57:36
Thanks much, Vermis! And yeah, I had seen the old Path to Glory stuff - which is why I was so surprised that they didn't reboot it for a skirmish game. I mean, it's absolutely perfect for it! And wasn't the Hell Pit list one of those back-of-the-book armies? Those were a cool idea.
I actually wanted them to go micro on the fluff. I love my empire, but I could care less reading about all the super exploits of Ludwig Schwarzhelm and his oiled mustachio...
I wanted fluff on the different districts in Altdorf, stories of what it's like to be a beggar or thief there. I wanted maps of towns. Explanations of how villages defend themselves against raids. Structures of Empire regiments and standing armies etc etc etc
I'm sure lots of people would have liked that for their respective armies too. Most of the fluff in the armybooks is either historic or about special characters, which are the parts that bore me the most. There was SO much scope for fleshing out each faction and keeping the army book fluff fresh in my opinion.
That is exactly the kind of stuff I want too! There's only so much you can say about Karl Franz or Grimgor, but there's a ton of things to talk about when you get down to how Marienburg and the Empire proper handle each other, or what everyday life is like when you live in a mountain and come under siege every couple of years. It's why I liked Skarsnik so much; the book wasn't about armies beating the hell out of each other, it was about a goblin's rise to power, and in telling that story it really let you in on how your average gobbo lives his (nasty, brutish, and usually very short) life.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/12 23:38:43
2015/03/13 09:06:05
Subject: It is Finished. The Winners of the Great Game.
This kind of reminds me of some big Event in comics where they decide they need to reinvent a character, blow up part of the setting, and massacre a bunch of B-listers. There's usually a spike of interest, but the property is less interesting in the long term, because they've eliminated things that people really liked, and have no real idea how to follow up on the changes apart from clumsy retcons, or "Now things are grimmer and grittier!"
"The 75mm gun is firing. The 37mm gun is firing, but is traversed round the wrong way. The Browning is jammed. I am saying "Driver, advance." and the driver, who can't hear me, is reversing. And as I look over the top of the turret and see twelve enemy tanks fifty yards away, someone hands me a cheese sandwich."
2015/03/13 09:35:54
Subject: Re:It is Finished. The Winners of the Great Game.
thedarkavenger wrote: Because the ending is "Chaos wins. World Ends. Kthxbai." It's what we all knew would happen, but instead of them ending it with a bang, they did it with a whimper.
Being fair, if you go read the very last page of any novel (or series of novels) and that's it, it'd be an anticlimax. The entire 5 book arc taken as a whole certainly isn't just "Chaos wins Kthxbai".
2015/03/13 10:24:08
Subject: It is Finished. The Winners of the Great Game.
All reminds me a little of the 'heroes of might and magic' games way back when- cataclysmic fight brought the end of the world, everyone jumped through portals to a new one
My FOW Blog
http://breakthroughassault.blogspot.co.uk/
Because the ending is "Chaos wins. World Ends. Kthxbai." It's what we all knew would happen, but instead of them ending it with a bang, they did it with a whimper.
Not really.
The whimper-ending I was expecting, was the game one day simply disappearing from the website like Necromunda & Co.
Instead there's a fun, if possibly flawed 5-book campaign to say goodbye to 30 years of Warhammer.
I wish Necromunda, Gorkamorka, Epic 40.000, etc.. would've only gotten a single-book campaign to put them to sleep, instead GW just pulling the plug some random day.
2015/03/13 12:26:57
Subject: It is Finished. The Winners of the Great Game.
I don't think saying that the EoT ending sucks because everyone dies and the world is destroyed is a thoughtful critique.
It's like saying - with the needed grain of salt - that Romeo and Juliet sucks because both die instead of living happily ever after.
Neither is the objection that they should have built upon the EoT instead of wrapping it up. I mean, at some point you reach the end of the narrative. Reading about the world crumbling under Chaos' grip is actually interesting - and it doesn't invalidate any of the previous lore and rules. Moorcock has written a very similar ending to the Elric saga, and Warhammer has always taken a lot of concepts from his books.
The difference is that EoT is not written by Moorcock, Martin, Zimmer Bradley, Gaiman or (God help us) Tolkien; this means that there are indeed cheesy parts bordering on fanfiction, but the good ideas that provide the overall structure are there.
Personally, I love the idea that the warhammer universe is framed within a cycle of destruction and rebirth.
I also like the idea that the world went down without a big bang - it underlines the inevitability of destruction and the sheer horror of the scale.
The idea that Chaos destroys everything but a single man and some mystical ball is just brilliant: if you think about it, it's so random and irrational that it perfectly fits the concept of Chaos as disorder.
Furthermore, I can appreciate the fact that Warhammer - the setting that created the "grimdark" trope - ends on a note of hope, with the promise of the birth of a new world. It's like saying "we've gone through the grim darkness for 30 years, but there's always hope". Which is a message that will resonate in a lot of people out there.
Some of these concepts are most probably involuntary, but that doesn't mean they should be ignored: nice things can come from oversights or mistakes, after all.
Bottom line, I am looking forward to see what GW is going to do with the WHFB IP now.
Because the ending is "Chaos wins. World Ends. Kthxbai." It's what we all knew would happen, but instead of them ending it with a bang, they did it with a whimper.
Not really.
The whimper-ending I was expecting, was the game one day simply disappearing from the website like Necromunda & Co.
Instead there's a fun, if possibly flawed 5-book campaign to say goodbye to 30 years of Warhammer.
I wish Necromunda, Gorkamorka, Epic 40.000, etc.. would've only gotten a single-book campaign to put them to sleep, instead GW just pulling the plug some random day.
So having the role end in a way that doesn't pay any expect to the entire world they've built isn't a whimper?
It's certainly not a bang, or a good ending. It's just another book that we have to ignore.
Vetril wrote: I don't think saying that the EoT ending sucks because everyone dies and the world is destroyed is a thoughtful critique.
It's like saying - with the needed grain of salt - that Romeo and Juliet sucks because both die instead of living happily ever after.
Neither is the objection that they should have built upon the EoT instead of wrapping it up. I mean, at some point you reach the end of the narrative. Reading about the world crumbling under Chaos' grip is actually interesting - and it doesn't invalidate any of the previous lore and rules. Moorcock has written a very similar ending to the Elric saga, and Warhammer has always taken a lot of concepts from his books.
The difference is that EoT is not written by Moorcock, Martin, Zimmer Bradley, Gaiman or (God help us) Tolkien; this means that there are indeed cheesy parts bordering on fanfiction, but the good ideas that provide the overall structure are there.
Personally, I love the idea that the warhammer universe is framed within a cycle of destruction and rebirth.
I also like the idea that the world went down without a big bang - it underlines the inevitability of destruction and the sheer horror of the scale.
The idea that Chaos destroys everything but a single man and some mystical ball is just brilliant: if you think about it, it's so random and irrational that it perfectly fits the concept of Chaos as disorder.
Furthermore, I can appreciate the fact that Warhammer - the setting that created the "grimdark" trope - ends on a note of hope, with the promise of the birth of a new world. It's like saying "we've gone through the grim darkness for 30 years, but there's always hope". Which is a message that will resonate in a lot of people out there.
Some of these concepts are most probably involuntary, but that doesn't mean they should be ignored: nice things can come from oversights or mistakes, after all.
Bottom line, I am looking forward to see what GW is going to do with the WHFB IP now.
I'm not saying that the EoT sucked because everyone dies and the world is destroyed.
I'm saying that the EoT sucks period. It should never have been made, it goes against almost all the fluff that came before it and most of it was pretty badly written to boot.
And all that that crappy "cycle of rebirth" nonsense reminded me was of the ending of the Paddle Pop Dinoterra movie where the bad guy gets trapped in a endless time loop. That is how bad GW's writings have got, they are using the same plot devices as a movie for 6 year olds.
2015/03/13 17:16:18
Subject: It is Finished. The Winners of the Great Game.
Vetril wrote: I don't think saying that the EoT ending sucks because everyone dies and the world is destroyed is a thoughtful critique.
It's like saying - with the needed grain of salt - that Romeo and Juliet sucks because both die instead of living happily ever after.
Neither is the objection that they should have built upon the EoT instead of wrapping it up. I mean, at some point you reach the end of the narrative. Reading about the world crumbling under Chaos' grip is actually interesting - and it doesn't invalidate any of the previous lore and rules. Moorcock has written a very similar ending to the Elric saga, and Warhammer has always taken a lot of concepts from his books.
The difference is that EoT is not written by Moorcock, Martin, Zimmer Bradley, Gaiman or (God help us) Tolkien; this means that there are indeed cheesy parts bordering on fanfiction, but the good ideas that provide the overall structure are there.
Personally, I love the idea that the warhammer universe is framed within a cycle of destruction and rebirth.
I also like the idea that the world went down without a big bang - it underlines the inevitability of destruction and the sheer horror of the scale.
The idea that Chaos destroys everything but a single man and some mystical ball is just brilliant: if you think about it, it's so random and irrational that it perfectly fits the concept of Chaos as disorder.
Furthermore, I can appreciate the fact that Warhammer - the setting that created the "grimdark" trope - ends on a note of hope, with the promise of the birth of a new world. It's like saying "we've gone through the grim darkness for 30 years, but there's always hope". Which is a message that will resonate in a lot of people out there.
Some of these concepts are most probably involuntary, but that doesn't mean they should be ignored: nice things can come from oversights or mistakes, after all.
Bottom line, I am looking forward to see what GW is going to do with the WHFB IP now.
I'm not saying that the EoT sucked because everyone dies and the world is destroyed.
I'm saying that the EoT sucks period. It should never have been made, it goes against almost all the fluff that came before it and most of it was pretty badly written to boot.
And all that that crappy "cycle of rebirth" nonsense reminded me was of the ending of the Paddle Pop Dinoterra movie where the bad guy gets trapped in a endless time loop. That is how bad GW's writings have got, they are using the same plot devices as a movie for 6 year olds.
The End Times books were fantastically well written, up until Thanquol. Glottkin is debatable.
I agree, the End Times was fantastically written. I even enjoyed Thanquol, although i must admit i enjoyed it from every perspective apart from the Skaven themselves. End Times made some gutsy decisions such as the Lizardman exodus and the reunification of the Elves but it was all explained plausibly.
I do not doubt Archaon will be well written, it should be the best piece of fluff to come out of GW for a LONG time. What concerns me is how fantasy will evolve from it into 9th Ed.
And for those of you worrying about unbound fantasy, remember that Archaon is not 9th Ed. If people don't like unbound, there is no point selling your armies in a huff, just wait it out until 9th. If the backlash to unbound is enough (Despite what people say, GW staff do notice a disgruntled customer and pass it forward) it will certainly be dropped for whatever 9th brings.
2015/03/13 21:41:21
Subject: It is Finished. The Winners of the Great Game.
ALEXisAWESOME wrote: I agree, the End Times was fantastically written. I even enjoyed Thanquol, although i must admit i enjoyed it from every perspective apart from the Skaven themselves. End Times made some gutsy decisions such as the Lizardman exodus and the reunification of the Elves but it was all explained plausibly.
I do not doubt Archaon will be well written, it should be the best piece of fluff to come out of GW for a LONG time. What concerns me is how fantasy will evolve from it into 9th Ed.
And for those of you worrying about unbound fantasy, remember that Archaon is not 9th Ed. If people don't like unbound, there is no point selling your armies in a huff, just wait it out until 9th. If the backlash to unbound is enough (Despite what people say, GW staff do notice a disgruntled customer and pass it forward) it will certainly be dropped for whatever 9th brings.
If 9th edition is due out in July then the book has already been written and sent off to the printers. There is no chance it will be changed in time for release.
That said, I agree with everything else you say. ET: Archaon isn't 9th edition, and there's no reason to beleive that this isn't just something they're doing in the spirit of the End Times.
Let's wait and see. There's really no point freaking out just yet. People are being incredibly silly.
2015/03/13 22:50:05
Subject: It is Finished. The Winners of the Great Game.
ALEXisAWESOME wrote: I agree, the End Times was fantastically written. I even enjoyed Thanquol, although i must admit i enjoyed it from every perspective apart from the Skaven themselves. End Times made some gutsy decisions such as the Lizardman exodus and the reunification of the Elves but it was all explained plausibly.
I do not doubt Archaon will be well written, it should be the best piece of fluff to come out of GW for a LONG time. What concerns me is how fantasy will evolve from it into 9th Ed.
And for those of you worrying about unbound fantasy, remember that Archaon is not 9th Ed. If people don't like unbound, there is no point selling your armies in a huff, just wait it out until 9th. If the backlash to unbound is enough (Despite what people say, GW staff do notice a disgruntled customer and pass it forward) it will certainly be dropped for whatever 9th brings.
If 9th edition is due out in July then the book has already been written and sent off to the printers. There is no chance it will be changed in time for release.
That said, I agree with everything else you say. ET: Archaon isn't 9th edition, and there's no reason to beleive that this isn't just something they're doing in the spirit of the End Times.
Let's wait and see. There's really no point freaking out just yet. People are being incredibly silly.
All 9th needs to be is a reworked 8th. That way, they can just release primed versions of the rules as and when queries come up. AND ACTUAL FAQS. But I digress. And yes, I did say that I'm putting my armies on the shelf. That has been something I've been considering for a while. All fantasy has become recently is an arms race. First it was UL, when people took Nagash and VC armies with no downsides. Then it was Glottkin with the stupid herdstone lists. Then came Khaine with the HotEK lists. Then Thanquol with Rattling Cannons. Now we've got Archaon which just, urgh. I'm so burnt out with warhammer that unless 9th is the golden goose, I'm not likely to reinvest.
GW have a precedent of randomly changing the ruleset so drastically, no book will be valid. I'm not confident that this isn't the case.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/13 22:53:46
I like the End Times writing. The only sucky thing is the "use whatever you want, we give up" ruling. That's just poor and shouldn't have happened. I get it: the end is here, all that's left is being thrown against Archaon, no holding back. But it doesn't work from a rules perspective.
Reality is a nice place to visit, but I'd hate to live there.
Manchu wrote:I'm a Catholic. We eat our God.
Due to work, I can usually only ship any sales or trades out on Saturday morning. Please trade/purchase with this in mind.
2015/03/14 02:24:30
Subject: It is Finished. The Winners of the Great Game.
I'm not sure what was so bad at leaving the end of times perpetual? I don't think they even needed an official end of times series to push that agenda.
Age of Sigmar - It's sorta like a clogged toilet, where the muck crests over the rim and onto the floor. Somehow 'ground marines' were created from this...
2015/03/14 09:00:55
Subject: It is Finished. The Winners of the Great Game.
kveldulf wrote: I'm not sure what was so bad at leaving the end of times perpetual? I don't think they even needed an official end of times series to push that agenda.
Yes me too.
I like my background setting as just that, a background setting.
I think GW is just using End Times to bridge a gap between one background setting and the next, while at the same time pleasing fans who wanted to see a resolution to their background/ releasing loads of cool new models outside of armybooks/ milking fans with limited edition books.
I have no doubt that the new background will be another dark, compelling setting also frozen in time to act as a frame for our own stories and armies. The reason for the mix-up is largely miniature based in my opinion as every single faction is likely to see the more generic parts dropped and more unique stuff added in (similar to the End Times models).
I swing like a pendulum between feeling sad and happy for the transition. Right now I am feeling positive. I look forward to the 'Empire' (or whatever the humans will be called) embracing even more grim steampunk wackiness as long as they retain some elements of the 16th Germanic style they have too.
Bye bye Dakkadakka, happy hobbying! I really enjoyed my time on here. Opinions were always my own :-)
2015/03/14 14:19:15
Subject: Re:It is Finished. The Winners of the Great Game.
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
2015/03/14 15:05:45
Subject: Re:It is Finished. The Winners of the Great Game.
Why is Eldyra in the book? Wasn't she turned into a goddess?
Ah. I've been waiting on this one. Eldyra's presence in The Lord of the End Times is what we, in the biz, like to call a 'f*ck up.' Mostly on my part, I think.
See, what happened was, I included her in the book because I thought her final fate hadn't been covered by anyone else, and I thought it wasn't exactly fair to turn her into a vampire in the first book and then never mention her again. Too, the fifth ET book was pretty light on female characters. So, I put her in, and decided to give her and Tyrion a last moment for some (probably unnecessary) pathos. Just to twist the knife a bit before the end.
What I didn't *know* at the time, was that she'd been turned into a goddess in ET: Khaine. I didn't find that out until after this book was already at the printers. By the time I learned about it, it was too late to hack those bits out.
Frankly, it was my fault for not triple-checking. Just like leaving out Alith Anar and Skarsnik. It's filed under 'Things I Could Have Done Better If I'd Had The Time'.
That said, you can always make the case that she's not really Eldyra, but rather what's left of Eldyra after Lileath snatches her soul and deposits it in the Haven. An undead husk of the last princess of Tiranoc, desperately seeking absolution from the one person she trusts to give it to her.
This one stood out to me. Now I haven't read any End Times (and don't plan to), but this seems to suggest that all the books were independently commissioned and none of the writers bothered to read each other's work? ...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/14 15:33:32
Bye bye Dakkadakka, happy hobbying! I really enjoyed my time on here. Opinions were always my own :-)
2015/03/15 16:54:37
Subject: Re:It is Finished. The Winners of the Great Game.
Now that they have actually ended it I feel much more apathetic then I originally expected. It's probably because I reached a point about 2 years ago when I decided I wasn't buying anything else. The only thing I have bought from a GW in the past 5 yeas has been 2 rule books everything else has been ebay. I don't care for the current model range so new figs don't interest me any. I have multiple armies at 10K +, so I don't need anything else. I prefer big games and the 8th rules support that pretty well. I only play WH with a small crowd of 8 others and most of us feel the same way.
At first I thought I would be annoyed if the rumors of the end were true, but after I thought about it I really feel like I don't care. I have been playing since 3rd and never cared for GWs fluff in the first place. I always found it bland with very 2 dimensional characters. I also detest the entire chaos background I also never liked how GW gave them more attention than any other faction. So for the past 20 years I have just been using GW models and rules for my own setting.
Now that said I do have a few friends that are really into the fluff for their armies so I sympathize with them, but personally I left the old world behind a long time ago.
So as for the story i could care less, but for the rules and declining sales GW made this mess themselves.
I like 8th ed but it was written with the sole purpose of selling more models than any past editions. Step up ment more models were goine to die, steadfast ment people needed bigger units, model point cost was cut so more models would fit in the same point games. Even veterans had to buy some more models to accommodate this, not many people had the models to field 50 man units of halberdiers or 100 man units of night goblins. At first glance I'm sure GW thought this was a great idea given their huge profit point. But unfortunately GW never responded to the world recession. Before 8th a person could get into the game for $100-200. Once the economy tanked and game cost went up fewer people hadd the funds to buy in. GW could have saved themselves by limiting unit sizes, adjusting rules, or heaven forbid cut prices. However GW did none of these things and fantasy sales suffered to its current state. So now when faced with declining sales and rising competition they are stuck with making the drastic decision that is End Times.
At the end of the day it is a shame for a system that has been going for so long because GW couldn't think of a better way to turn things around outside of destroying the world. A good DM always finds s way to keep the story alive, GW just hasn't had any of those for over a decade.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/03/15 17:33:22
Last time I ever bothered to start building a WFB army was for the Skaven Hell Pit list from... how many years ago now?
