KOW second edition - what changes to expect?

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**lord_blackfang**

I'd shave down the magic item list by half, but that's just me.

**melkorthetonedeaf**

I would add Tenser's Floating Disk.

**Aesop the God Awful**

lord_blackfang wrote:
I'd shave down the magic item list by half, but that's just me.

I was hoping for more magic artifacts, but perhaps not three damn pages of them

But as long as no one is immediately game breaking I don't have a problem with it. If you can't remember what your opponents items do you can always ask.

**melkorthetonedeaf**

Building a Goblin force right now, and I just don't have enough bodies to pull off the "hordes of hordes" thing.... so everyone gets items.

**Baragash**

Aesop the God Awful wrote:
lord_blackfang wrote:
I'd shave down the magic item list by half, but that's just me.
I was hoping for more magic artifacts, but perhaps not three damn pages of them But as long as no one is immediately game breaking I don't have a problem with it. If you can't remember what your opponents items do you can always ask.

There are less magic items in 2nd Ed than there were in first Ed (IIRC there were 60 in 1st, there's now 40 or 41).

**GiraffeX**

Do we know why the Vampire on Pegasus was removed, I was hoping to use the new Neferata (Mortarch) for my undead army.

**Tyr13**

The pegasus was turned into an upgrade. Its still there, its just listed under the vampire heading. Probably to a) make it more like other flying mounts and to b) make the dragon more unique.

**Baragash**

GiraffeX wrote:
Do we know why the Vampire on Pegasus was removed, I was hoping to use the new Neferata (Mortarch) for my undead army.

He hasn't been, there is an attempt to roll it into the same entry as the normal Vampire, as an option (like KoM Pegasus are presented).

**GiraffeX**

Cool thanks, I misinterpreted the spreadsheet.

**.Mikes.**

melkorthetonedeaf wrote:
I think it's just editing and formatting mostly at this point. I still wish they'd give the magic items more generic names. I can never remember which one does what... I guess that's on me though.

I haven't checked out the new magical rules yet, but if they're the same ones from the Basiliean Lagacy Alessio canvassed the official forum for suggestions and feedback on magic items and named the ones used after the forum handles of those who suggested them. Nice little nod to the community.

**melkorthetonedeaf**

Well, that is pretty rad then!

**Azazelx**

They are quite characterful, but that sadly means that most of them are just confusing to remember what they do...

**Daedleh**

It also didn't help that Alessio pretty much just straight copied + pasted from the forums with very little/no editing. Gamers might have good ideas, but they often aren't great at turning them into solid rules or putting a good points value on them...

**melkorthetonedeaf**

Played a small game today without magic items. New LOS rules.

**doc1234**

The thursday list updates aren't as big as i thought they'd be (unless your Abyssal Demons). Elves have gone up in points again though. It's starting to sting a bit.

**Azazelx**

There doesn't seem to have been a Thursday update, according to the Beta forum...

**doc1234**

It wasn't a major one, but if you look in the changelist on the google drive doc there was changes made. Not sure why it wasn't announced.

Tweaked all ranged infantry % costs
Army standard bearers in every army have had their melee values increased by one (in most cases 4+ to 5+)
Goblin Flaggits defence increased to 4 (from 3)
Orc Flaggers attacks reduced to 1 (from 2)
Orc Flagger Points decreased to 50 (from 60)
Removed Regeneration and Divine off Elohi, ur-elohi and the living legend elohi, reduced nerve by 1 but they are now unwavering. Normal Elohi now also have inspiring.
Removed Regeneration from Werewolves
Reduced points on Soul Reaver Infantry to 180/260 from 200/285
Orcsbains amulet points increased
Ogres are still smashing skulls everywhere. No change there.
Removed Regeneration from Lycanis
Ranger captain is now inspiring to rangers only (points increased by 10)
War Drum changed to a new and exciting rule!, it's now also fearless but has reduced defence
Dwarf Rifles increased by 5 points at regiment level
Abyssal Berserkers are now unwavering
Naiads Are now Regen 4+ (From 5)
Flamebearers now have Firebolt (18" ranged weapon)
Lots of changes to Abyssals
Magequeen costs rebalanced
Pegasus is now a Hero(Large Cav)
Slightly increases points on Immortal Guard
Fixed a typo with slyvan kin in the nature list, they now correctly have speed 6 like the ones in th elf list.

**Daedleh**

That was the previous update. We didn't have enough playtest data to make changes so there wasn't an update on Thursday. We're now looking at making weekly rather than twice-weekly updates.

New version is out: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1nhZLDFOHUXC2MCA6NwYQWr0HF2mSyvEWIlNH4oCtBeQ/edit#gid=549196905

Changelog:

All - Reworked Breath Attack War Engines
All - Pets reduced cost in all lists except Abyssal Dwarfs
All - Adjusted prices for all ranged hordes (slight increase)
All - Lesser mounts (For Wizards and Army Standards etc) have all been upped by 5 points to 15.
All - Balanced points between Dwarf Earth Elementals and Nature Elementals
All - Increased the Necromancer/Basilean War-Wizard Lightning bolt option to (3) (From 2), Points also increased.
Abyssal Dwarfs - Removed Pathfinder from Lesser and Greater Obsidian Golems, decreased points to compensate
Abyssal Dwarfs - Katsuchan Rocket Launcher has been reworked to have multiple attacks but very small blasts.
Abyssal Dwarfs - Grog Mortar has had it's blast decreased by 1.
Abyssals - Abyssal Champs revisited
Abyssals - Elite removed from the Iffrit and points increased
Abyssals - Hellhounds and Mawbeasts and now Height 1.
Basileans - Abbess on Panther chariot has lost Headstrong but gained Vicious.
Basileans - Jullius is now Very Inspiring
Basileans - Twin souls now changed to have global range
Dwarfs - Warsmith rules amended to improve synergy with cannons.
Dwarfs - Dwarf Rangers now hit on a 5+, Their points have been decreased to compensate.
Elves - Elves equipped with bows no longer hit on a 4+, instead they hit on a 5+ and have Piercing (1).
Elves - Elven Silverbreeze cavalry have been rebalanced and points have increased to compensate.
Goblins - Trolls no longer irregular in Goblins
Goblins - Goblin Sharpstick Thrower has been reworked to have 2 shots. (as per the KS concept arts)
KoM - The Captain points reduced
KoM - KoM Mounted Scouts no longer have the options for rifles, but can now choose to pay for an upgrade to carbines which have range 18" and Piercing (1). No more Reload!
Nature - The Druid has been reworked and rebalanced.
Ogres - Ogre Warlocks Breath reduced to 12 (from 15) and Lightning Bolt increased to 3 (from 2)
Orcs - Morax nerve increased
Orcs - Orc Gore Riders reduced
Orcs - Orc wardrum is now -2 to all nerve tests, with pts decrease
Orcs - Wip the halfcast no longer has Crushing Strength
Undead - Zombie horde's attacks fixed
Undead - Zombie trolls now hit on a 4+

**doc1234**

Ah my mistake then! I thought that was the update and the original post just hadn't been modified.

**angelshade00**

I still see no trace of the Twilight Kin however. I don't mind, but I do have a friend that was too happy to put his old dark elves to use. Any news on them?

**.Mikes.**

angelshade00 wrote:
I still see no trace of the Twilight Kin however. I don't mind, but I do have a friend that was too happy to put his old dark elves to use. Any news on them?

Matt Gilbert has confirmed (on the official forums I belive, although I can't remember where) that there will be an interim army list to tide people over.

**Daedleh**

That's the plan. As soon as we've finished the 2nd ed beta we'll be launching head first into the not-Warhammer army lists, and I suspect TK will be one of the first releases since it's a quick update from the 1st edition list.

**angelshade00**

Great! I admit it was fun trolling him that his army is being "retired", but he will be happy to know. I'll be out of the battlefields for the next 5 months due to work, so I can't wait for October to try the new edition! I'll also expand my armies, hopefully there will be new Ogres models!

**Azazelx**

TK or Dark Elves? Because they're not entirely the same (especially with Mantic wanting to change their TK up a bit from Dark Elves...)

**angelshade00**

Azazelx wrote:
TK or Dark Elves? Because they're not entirely the same (especially with Mantic wanting to change their TK up a bit from Dark Elves...)

Now I'm confused... Isn't Twilight Kin Mantic's dark elf equivalent?

**TheAuldGrump**

angelshade00 wrote:
Azazelx wrote:
TK or Dark Elves? Because they're not entirely the same (especially with Mantic wanting to change their TK up a bit from Dark Elves...)

Now I'm confused... Isn't Twilight Kin Mantic's dark elf equivalent?

Currently, yes.

Mantic wants to recreate the Twilight Kin to fit the background from their own setting, rather than imitate GWs.

And, given that they will also have an officially un-official list for not-Dark Elves that can be used for KoW using the GW figures, they are trying to satisfy both those that want Dark Elves and those that want Twilight Kin to be their own thing.

The Auld Grump

**Dakkamite**

I know its already been done to death but...

Hell yes good riddence to TloS!

Now if only Bolt Action would do the same - this guy really needs to stop putting that crappy rule into his games

**Daedleh**

Last I heard the plan was to make a Twilight Kin not-whfb list as part of that expansion, then later do a dedicated Mantics Twilight Kin list as part of the 3 official army lists expansion. They'll have different names to avoid confusion but they'll be two different evil-elves list like the Undead list vs Tomb Kings list.

**GiraffeX**

That sounds like a good idea, I'm glad they listen to their customer base.

**Daedleh**

KoW Beta 2.4 army lists released:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1nhZLDFOHUXC2MCA6NwYQWr0HF2mSyvEWIlNH4oCtBeQ/edit#gid=2111976336

General - Extreme Range Removed
General - Cavalry Hordes and Large Infantry Legions Pts % Slightly Increased
General - Giants no longer suffer the penalty for hindered charges.
Magic Items - Blasting Arrow - Removed
Magic Items - Brew of Keen-eyeness - Decreased points to 45 (from 50)
Magic Items - Brew of Sharpness - Increased points to 45 (from 40)
Magic Items - Darklords Onyx ring - Reduced points to 20 (from 40)
Magic Items - Heartseeking Chant - Now works with spells.
Magic Items - Kaba's Holy Hand - No longer requires Good units to take, now always hits on a 4+ regardless of modifiers.
Magic Items - Kevinar's Flying Hammer - Changed to 12" Range, now always hits on a 4+
Magic Items - Myrddin’s Amulet of the Fire-heart - No longer requires lightning bolt
Magic Items - Myrddin’s Dwarven Rune Stones - Removed
Magic Items - Piercing Arrow - Operates like Mace of crushing for ranged attackks
Magic Items - Quicksilver Blade renamed to Quicksilver Rapier
Magic Items - Scarletmaw’s Fenulian Amulet - Now Increases Lightning bolt by 2.
Mhorgoth - Can only grant regeneration to non hero units
Abyssal Dwarfs - Abyssal Grotesques - 50x50mm bases.
Abyssal Dwarfs - Angkor Mortar - Increased points to 120 (from 110)
Abyssal Dwarfs - Brakki Barka - Increased Nerve by 1
Abyssal Dwarfs - Grog Mortar - Increased points to 100 (from 85)
Abyssal Dwarfs - Rocket Launcher - Increased points to 85
Abyssals - Flamebearers - Nerve increased by 1
Abyssals - Iffrit - Can no longer take Surge
Basileans - Elohi - Increased Nerve by 1 to 14/17 from (13/16), Points also increased slightly
Basilean - Crossbows - Reduced Points slightl
Dwarf - Rangers - Now uses the correct point % for ranged troops
Dwarfs - Bulwarkers - Increased Points slightly
Dwarfs - Cannon - Increased points to 110 (from 100
Dwarfs - Ironclad - Reduced Points slightly
Dwarfs - Ironguard - Increased Points slightly
Dwarfs - Ironwatch Crossbows - Reduced Points slightly
Dwarfs - Ironwatch Rifles - Reduced Points slightly
Dwarfs - Sharpshooters - No longer suffer from extreme range.
Elves - Scouts - Now have Melee 4 (from 5), reduced points by 5
Elves - Silverbreeze can no longer be taken as regiments, Troops points increased slightly.
Elves - War chariots - Decreased Speed to 8, Increased attacks, removed Nimble
Goblins - Fleabag Chariots - Increased attacks to 8/16, No longer have Nimbl
Goblins - Magwa and Jo'os - Slightly beefed up, increased number of attacks by 1, increased lightning bolt by 1 and increased nerve by 1, points increased by 10
Kingdoms of Men - Charioteers - Increased Speed to 8 (From 7), No longer have Nimble, Now have TC(2), Increased attacks to 8/16
Kingdoms of Men - Crossbows - Reduced Points slightl
Kingdoms of Me - Arquebuisiers - Reduced Points slightl
Nature - Air Elementals - No longer have Crushing Strength, Increased points by 5
Nature - Beast of Nature - Fly cost increased to 50 (from 40)
Nature - Centaur Chief - Bow Option reduced to 10 points (from 15)
Nature - Greater Elemental - Air option now only has CS(1), Water Elemental costs an extra 30
Nature - Pegasus - Increased points by 5
Natur - Winged Unicorn - No longer has Surge
Ogres - Heavy Crossbows - No longer suffer from extreme rang
Ogres - Red Goblins attacks reduced to match other ranged units.
Ogres - Warrior Legion - Increased Nerve by 1
Orcs - Chariots - Reduced upper nerve limit by 1, reduced points slightly
Orcs - Fight Wagons - Reduced upper nerve limit by 1, reduced points slightly

We won't be making another update next weekend (3rd May), the next one will be on the 10th. That will likely be the last public beta update before final submissions.