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 RunicFIN wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
CSM are primarily meant for narrative gaming. Since they play the role of the NPC they've been designed to be strictly worse than the Player Characters (i.e. space marines). They're not supposed to be competitive.

So, if you play CSM, you're supposed to lose? That doesn't help people who actually want to win and thought they were buying an awesomely tough army. What if, in their narrative, the CSM are the protagonists?

I do have to say that if your villains (CSM) are always meant to lose, then they pose no real threat and can't be taken seriously. They'll be like the battle droids from the Star Wars prequels instead of the Darth Vader they're supposed to be.

Also your explanation means it'll be unfun for people expecting a fair game and they'll get frustrated and go somewhere else. Also not good for the 40k community.

What he said is a joke, a pretty obvious one at that.

Unfortunately, not that obvious because I've heard very similar things said in earnest.

Makumba wrote:
But you could do it with SW too and get ATKNF, drop pods , TWC , same sicurians and an option to ally in some centurions.
Here no SW play meq swarm lists. So playing csm that way would be playing a weaker version of an identical build from a different faction. Or is there something that makes CSM better then SW and swarming ?

I'd say the combis on the rhinos help a lot. Plus the CSM are even cheaper than grey hunters - 2 points cheaper iirc.

Bad for so many reasons. I dislike Nurgle (and Khorne and Tzeentch), so I play Noise Marines. Just setting up the context for some of my complaints.

Overall: From a competitive standpoint, the CSM Codex lacks resiliency AND impact. It can neither Alpha Strike efficiently (consistently) nor can it win a war of attrition.

Noise Marine/Mark of Slaanesh Specific:
0) Sonic Blasters are SALVO.
1) The Aspiring Champion is mandatory, and/but cannot choose to take the 'signature' weapon (i.e. Sonic Blaster)
2) Blastmasters are 30 points a piece (S8 AP3, Ignores Cover, Pinning Blasts are so OP)
3) Noise Marines don't come with their signature weapon; equipping them brings the total price per model to 20
4) The Icon of Excess is still just an Icon (not an inherent upgrade to the individual models themselves)
5) There are no meaningful (i.e. useful) options for 'thematizing' (totally a word, right?) the rest of a Noise Marine army

In general:
0) All Characters MUST issue/accept challenges
1) CSM are over-priced vis a vis Space Marines for NO tradeoff. ATSKNF is worth how much?
2) Daemon Princes/Sorcerers with Marks do not unlock Cult Units as troops
3) Vehicles, such as they are, are laughably inadequate
4) Anti-Air options are pathetic
5) Divination, please?
6) There is no meaningful (i.e. useful) distinction between the CSM for which 10 Millennia have passed (some of which have maintained their former discipline and some of which have devolved into bands of CSM/heretics/daemons), and those proud warriors that might still have the dust of Istavaan on their Heretical boots and nasty pre-heresy weapons in their arsenals...due to the vagaries of Warp Space/Time. There was a response to a 'What would you like to see in a new CSM codex' post that says this better than I have here
7) Obliterators
8) Mutilators (<--good, maybe even great lesson in poor design...)
9) Inability to mount high-volume, low AP weapons on high(er) toughness, 2+ armor save, 2-wound platforms ($ if you thought of Centurions right away)
10) Chaos Marks, with the exception of the Mark of Nurgle are uninspired at best; +1 Initiative wins games!
11) Cult units, with the possible exception of Plague Marines, are unimpressive

Etc.

Sure, some people have some success sometimes (I hope to be one of those people), but it is always an uphill battle, even when they win.

while im still waiting and hoping for a new codex, there are some nice toys in IA13 if you can afford forgeworld models. I just ordered myself a fire raptor and spartan assault tank, but at that cost, its not for everybody. I had retired my CSM about 18 months ago and play eldar now, but theres only so much fun in fielding wave serpents and wraithknights before its time to mix it up. I wish chaos did have other AA options though, the local tyranid player runs a super effective nid airforce that i cant beat with eldar, much less with chaos and even less options.

DCannon4Life wrote:
Bad for so many reasons. I dislike Nurgle (and Khorne and Tzeentch), so I play Noise Marines. Just setting up the context for some of my complaints.

Overall: From a competitive standpoint, the CSM Codex lacks resiliency AND impact. It can neither Alpha Strike efficiently (consistently) nor can it win a war of attrition.

Noise Marine/Mark of Slaanesh Specific:
0) Sonic Blasters are SALVO.
1) The Aspiring Champion is mandatory, and/but cannot choose to take the 'signature' weapon (i.e. Sonic Blaster)
2) Blastmasters are 30 points a piece (S8 AP3, Ignores Cover, Pinning Blasts are so OP)
3) Noise Marines don't come with their signature weapon; equipping them brings the total price per model to 20
4) The Icon of Excess is still just an Icon (not an inherent upgrade to the individual models themselves)
5) There are no meaningful (i.e. useful) options for 'thematizing' (totally a word, right?) the rest of a Noise Marine army

In general:
0) All Characters MUST issue/accept challenges
1) CSM are over-priced vis a vis Space Marines for NO tradeoff. ATSKNF is worth how much?
2) Daemon Princes/Sorcerers with Marks do not unlock Cult Units as troops
3) Vehicles, such as they are, are laughably inadequate
4) Anti-Air options are pathetic
5) Divination, please?
6) There is no meaningful (i.e. useful) distinction between the CSM for which 10 Millennia have passed (some of which have maintained their former discipline and some of which have devolved into bands of CSM/heretics/daemons), and those proud warriors that might still have the dust of Istavaan on their Heretical boots and nasty pre-heresy weapons in their arsenals...due to the vagaries of Warp Space/Time. There was a response to a 'What would you like to see in a new CSM codex' post that says this better than I have here
7) Obliterators
8) Mutilators (<--good, maybe even great lesson in poor design...)
9) Inability to mount high-volume, low AP weapons on high(er) toughness, 2+ armor save, 2-wound platforms ($ if you thought of Centurions right away)
10) Chaos Marks, with the exception of the Mark of Nurgle are uninspired at best; +1 Initiative wins games!
11) Cult units, with the possible exception of Plague Marines, are unimpressive

Etc.

Sure, some people have some success sometimes (I hope to be one of those people), but it is always an uphill battle, even when they win.

ATSKNF is a useless rule - essentially it is worth 0 because it's jsut as likely to hurt you as help you. CSM have higher base leadership - it evens out and they cost less points. Can take auto-cannons and can arm their rhinos with actual weapons. Whats the last time you were in a CC and there wasn't a challange? Probably never! Theres is never a reason not to challenge - even if your character is weaker...plus they can just challenge you - essentially this rule might as well not even exist because there is going to be a challenge every combat anyways. Nothing forces you to take your bad units - just take your good ones. Troop marines with CC weapons are actually awesome. SM armies would army ALL marines with CC weapons given the opportunity. They might even take tacs over scouts if they could. Yeah it does suck to not have thunderfire cannons and centurians - I agree with that - you can just take Sicarians instead which is basically the best tank in the game - so stop crying. I agree that space marines can feild more cheesy and competitive armies with ally shenanigans - CSM can just take daemon allies and accomplish the same feet. They aren't nearly as bad as people lead on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

stopcallingmechief wrote:
while im still waiting and hoping for a new codex, there are some nice toys in IA13 if you can afford forgeworld models. I just ordered myself a fire raptor and spartan assault tank, but at that cost, its not for everybody. I had retired my CSM about 18 months ago and play eldar now, but theres only so much fun in fielding wave serpents and wraithknights before its time to mix it up. I wish chaos did have other AA options though, the local tyranid player runs a super effective nid airforce that i cant beat with eldar, much less with chaos and even less options.

chaos players in my meta run bunker with icurias laz cannons. 4 twin linked skyfire laz cannons with bs 2 and 90 inch range on an armor 14 bunker...yeah - GG airforce. Whats in the bunker? Lots of laz cannons and plasma guns.

For the nid player with your eldar...just run a crap ton of WW and wavesnakes...easy money. Scatter lazers are supper effective anti air weapons. Knock em down then focus fire.

ATSKNF = Can't be swept in CC, Auto-Regroup after falling back and ACT NORMALLY, Immune to Fear.

Hardly useless.

DCannon4Life wrote:
ATSKNF = Can't be swept in CC, Auto-Regroup after falling back and ACT NORMALLY, Immune to Fear.

Hardly useless.

Most of my deaths are in the enemy shooting phase. Useless.

Yeah, ATSKNF may not be the most incredible rule ever, but it certainly has some very real value. For the 1ppm premium GW seems to value it at, I'd certainly pay that on every unit to take it.

 Xenomancers wrote:

ATSKNF is a useless rule - essentially it is worth 0 because it's jsut as likely to hurt you as help you. CSM have higher base leadership - it evens out and they cost less points.

CSM no longer have higher base leadership, haven't for going on three years now. They have to take VotLW to get higher Leadership, and aside from relatively basic units, it often costs 2-3ppm.

Can take auto-cannons and can arm their rhinos with actual weapons.

Nobody bothers with the rhino combi-weapons most of the time, rhino's die too fast, the weapons are very short ranged and increase the cost of your transport by ~30% . LIkewise, the Autocannons really only come into play on Havoc squads (which you don't see huge numbers of).

Whats the last time you were in a CC and there wasn't a challange? Probably never!

All the time?

Theres is never a reason not to challenge - even if your character is weaker...

Unless you want your character to engage the putz infantry because of superior killing power and often an inability to hurt what's going to accept the challenge.

Nothing forces you to take your bad units - just take your good ones.

Except fluff dictates this much more than many other armies, especially for Legion players. It also doesn't help that there's basically no specialization functionality through formations or chapter tactics.

 Xenomancers wrote:
you can just take Sicarians instead which is basically the best tank in the game - so stop crying. I agree that space marines can feild more cheesy and competitive armies with ally shenanigans - CSM can just take daemon allies and accomplish the same feet. They aren't nearly as bad as people lead on.

To take Sicarans, as in multiple, you need to have a Warpsmith ( bad ) or a Daemonology Sorcerer ( unless you're running an AD for Daemons, not very useful ) or Abaddon ( while being a CC monster, I don't think I've ever even seen him played. He needs a delivery method and starts to cost way too much for what he does. ) Being able to ally with Daemons hardly makes CSM themselves any better. On their own they are infact, pretty damn bad.

I do however understand your point, I think. If you don't happen to be at the top tables of ETC, which most of us are not, you are infact able to crush many competitive lists with CSM by utilizing IA13 and Daemons. I've done it myself.

CSM are bottom-tier without IA13, with IA13 they become Iron Hands only worse.

 MWHistorian wrote:

 RunicFIN wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
CSM are primarily meant for narrative gaming. Since they play the role of the NPC they've been designed to be strictly worse than the Player Characters (i.e. space marines). They're not supposed to be competitive.

So, if you play CSM, you're supposed to lose? That doesn't help people who actually want to win and thought they were buying an awesomely tough army. What if, in their narrative, the CSM are the protagonists?

I do have to say that if your villains (CSM) are always meant to lose, then they pose no real threat and can't be taken seriously. They'll be like the battle droids from the Star Wars prequels instead of the Darth Vader they're supposed to be.

Also your explanation means it'll be unfun for people expecting a fair game and they'll get frustrated and go somewhere else. Also not good for the 40k community.

What he said is a joke, a pretty obvious one at that.

Unfortunately, not that obvious because I've heard very similar things said in earnest.

They've been a joke too.

If you want to run CSM with any degree of success you either need to do A: PLAAAAGUEEEEE marines and A:13 for back-up, or (at least from my experience) a khorne berzerker land raider list works moderately well with maulerfiend support because of all of the synergy between the models... We need more of that.

CSM needs a points drop of 25% across the board on everything but the Maulerfiend, it needs more non-AI:13 anti-air, and it needs more synergy between more feasible troops and whatever else is in the codex. Necrons are a good example of the last point - you can transport them in a skimmer or in a flyer, they can hurt troops or vehicles, they are very durable for the points, and their characteristics can be buffed depending on what vehicles or characters you bring.

I hope that they make all Cult marines basic troops by default in the next codex in some form, along with a steep points drop. We also badly need more (non-Helbrute) formations to maximize returns from our more specialist units so that they can coordinate better with troops (again, Necrons are a great example of how to do this).

CSM do get deepstrike mitigation. They can take much smaller deepstrike units (1+ for 'lators, 3+ for termies). There is also a relic that helps, which can have a pretty fast and deadly delivery system... even if people don't like the relic it is there .

nareik wrote:
CSM do get deepstrike mitigation. They can take much smaller deepstrike units (1+ for 'lators, 3+ for termies). There is also a relic that helps, which can have a pretty fast and deadly delivery system... even if people don't like the relic it is there .

The relic is largely useless, not being functional typically until your reserves are already on the table.. Small unit sizes are a *very* minor thing.

Certainly absolutely nothing near the capabilities of Drop Pods or when any Icon acted as a Teleport Homer in the previous book.

Only the relic works from turn 3+ and most deep strike will have happened by then.

Makumba wrote:
Only the relic works from turn 3+ and most deep strike will have happened by then.

Exactly, bloody handy thing that is.


I dislike the fact that, in order for my army to compete with other regular armies, I need to own a copy of either codex daemons or imperial armour 13. I love imperial armour 13 and think it is a brilliant book, apart from maybe the Sircarian and the Fire Raptor nothing is crazy overpowered and yet it manages to be pretty good to play with and still be fluffy. As for the Sircarian, unless you're rocking a war smith, abbadon or a sorcerer with daemonology, you're only rocking one.

In the current book, there is no way to play a chaos legion warband. You can make okay renegade marine lists, but you can't really make legion ones. Votlw does not make my army a 'legion'.

Honestly if you want to be competitive with Chaos Space Marines it requires you to take IA 13 or Siege of and add in the R and R as allies.

There's even a detachment that unfortunately has no Fast Attack but has a gak load of Troops H. Support, Elites, and you can get a crap load of artillery Fire Raptors Obliterators etc.. in the detachment.


The Purge
Units may be taken from the Renegades or Chaos Space Marine army lists
Min 1HQ 2 TElites
Optional 1 HQ, 8 Troops, 4 Elites, 4 Heavy Support, 1 Fortification, 1 Lord of War
Restrictions:
Slaves to Darkness All units must have the Chaos Renegades or CHaos Space Marine Faction
Pledged to Nurgle No units may have a mark/devotion other than Nurgle

Well first off Nurgles probably the more powerful of the Gods w/ its additions. However this rule

Ordnance Tyrant - can take STrike, Artillery, Bombard, and Heavy Ordnance batteries as Elites & HS. Can take Field Artillery Batteries as non-compulsory Troops. Additionally, any weapon with both the Barrage & Blast rules that fire within 12" of the Demagogue can, so long as the blast template hole is centered entirely over an enemy model, place the template such that friendly units are under/touching it and can target enemy units locked in close combat Holy snap! this looks hideously ridiculous.


Get's hideous. Get purposefully in CC with 3+ armour units and FNP then drop Blasts on units in CC.