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 Vermis wrote:
Steve: The event was End Times. What Kyoto posted was the end of End Times, and that's affecting 9th ed. The strong rumours coming through are that the background is radically changed, and so are the nature of the armies and rules mechanics, to some extent. The hints include six factions of indeterminate race or allegiance, save one comprised of some kind of superhumans (ostensibly imitating 40K's space marines and hopefully their success) and reduction of the game size to 'skirmish' (likely more 40K or Warmachine 'skirmish' than Mordheim 'skirmish'). It's not known which current races will be canned, if any, how compatible they'll be with the new rules, and how scalable the rules will be; but a lot of people with large armies of threatened factions are treading on eggshells.

It's shaping up to be a considerable revamp, with smaller, more steampunk armies existing in multiple micro-universe 'bubbles'. The smaller cost of entry will be easier for new players, but it remains to be seen if enough of them will care, and if they'll make up for the alienation of a lot of existing players, who're already staying away in droves.
Game shops with a lot of current WFB stock on the shelves could find it difficult to shift, between people dropping out and people moving on to the new minis. Sure there'll be folk sticking with 8th ed or earlier, but given the general craving for 'official, current' GW products (some of those dropouts are immediately putting their big, old, slaved-over armies on ebay, as if they had some kind of 'use by' or 'not compatible with' label that suddenly expired) I'm sceptical that there'll be significant numbers.

Bloody pessimists are really starting to do my tree in.
Chill out. See what happens. We all know GW wants to make money, what company doesn't? Be realistic, all these skirmish rumours and squatting rumours are just that. RUMOURS!!!!
GW isn't so stupid as to shelve a long standing popular line. And even if they do those people with huge armies can just carry on as normal.

 Fellwing wrote:

GW isn't so stupid as to shelve a long standing popular line.

Many of us would have thought that GW wasn't so stupid as to destroy a long-standing, popular Intellectual Property either, but they just blew up the Old Worlde.

Tons of novels, a roleplaying game, Warhammer Quest mobile game, etc. I kind of wonder how the people who are releasing the Mordheim and Skaven video games feel about it?

"We just signed an agreement to develop a game based on your IP, and you just blew up everything in that IP?"

"Can we get a refund?"

There's 9th. Don't give up yet guys.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Da Butcha wrote:

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:

As far as most players are concerned, "players" being CURRENT customers of GW, the game is in the best state it's ever been in.

If, for a single moment, I thought that this was true, then what company decides:

Our game is in the best state it has ever been. Let's completely destroy the entire setting!

I'm not claiming 8th edition is the spawn of Satan, but I don't see many companies completely gutting their IP when it is at the peak of development.

To that, I would say 'NO!'

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Icculus wrote:
I thought the price to get in to fantasy was about the same as 40k.

It's about the same, if your concept of 40k is Boyz-heavy Orkz, Gaunt-heavy Nids, or full-Mech Guardsman-heavy Guard played at 2,000 points - literally the most expensive ways to play 40k possible, and all sub-par in effectiveness.

WFB 8E is an expensive edition, due to the shift toward Hordes.

That shift lasted for like a year, tops. The only people who still run hordes are people who chose to play horde armies, and hobbyists who like throwing giant bricks of infantry onto the table.

There is no shift to hordes. The supposed "randomness" of 8th edition is offset by the precision of premeasuring. Perhaps these things would be apparent if you actually PLAYED the game you are criticizing.

Seriously, ITT people who don't actually play WHFB talking about what's wrong with WHFB. Why should GW give half a gak what you think, if you aren't even a customer?

My gentle suggestion for you would be to engage your brain before you post claims that someone isn't a customer. My signature clearly enumerates over 31,000 points of GW product, of which 4,500 points is Dogs of War for Warhammer Fantasy, and that ignores my BFG and other SG stuff. I've played GW games starting with Dark Future, and I played Fantasy from the start of the modern era, 6th onward. There are multiple pictures showing various GW whatnots I've built and painted. I still play 40k, etc. I am definitely a GW customer, whether you like it or not. As an actual customer with a not insubstantial investment in GW product, including WFB product, GW should give quite a few gaks what I think.

As for what's wrong with WFB, I also hazard a guess that part of what's wrong with the game might well include persons with attitudes such as yourself, shooting from the hip with unsubstantiated accusations and claims. Whether one plays, or not, they are still a customer, and that is something you should get straight in your head..

4,500 points in 5th edition maybe. DoW haven't been a legal army in the better part of a decade. You may play 40K, but you can no longer be considered a current customer of WHFB. So why should GW care what you have to think about a product line you haven't supported in a decade, and which you show such clear misunderstanding about that you're unlikely to resume doing so even if a new edition were to come out?

Because seriously....what would it take to get you back into WHFB? Lower model count, like with the rumoured skirmish game? A setting that you like...being perhaps the one that's existed for the past 30 years, and for which a wealth of information and material remains available? Or just fundamental changes to a rule system that everybody who HAS been playing and spending for the past decade continues to enjoy.

Without GW support to LGS 9th edition will be a failure here in the US and so will 10th edition in two years time

Da Butcha wrote:

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:

As far as most players are concerned, "players" being CURRENT customers of GW, the game is in the best state it's ever been in.

If, for a single moment, I thought that this was true, then what company decides:

Our game is in the best state it has ever been. Let's completely destroy the entire setting!

I'm not claiming 8th edition is the spawn of Satan, but I don't see many companies completely gutting their IP when it is at the peak of development.

Because it's a setting, not the game. As I've been saying all thread, the setting has been stagnating at 2 minutes to midnight for 30 years. Every book released just rehashes the same fluff over and over again. It's tired and stale, and time for a refresh.

The IP that they "gutted" was essentially a bunch of substantially generic fantasy races set in a generic fantasy world, based on a real world globe and with races clearly anchored in historical parallels. So far as intellectual property is concerned that's pretty shallow. Now they filled that world with a treasure trove of stories and lore over the years, but the world that contained it all was rather weak.

This gives GW the chance to create a new world to situate their game in. So long as the game remains substantially unchanged, and the new fluff isn't horrendous, then 95% of current WHFB players won't even care. The general forums may be erupting, but the podcasts and armyspecific forums (i.e. people who actually play this game) largely think it's awesome, and are largely excited for whatever is to come. Concerned about the rumours, but generally optimistic that they're blown out of proportion and that 9th will bring more of what we've all come to love and enjoy.

Once again, what I see in this thread is a whole bunch of people who haven't played WHFB in over a decade, decrying the loss of something they don't actively participate in and no longer spend money on. So why should their opinions matter?

Da Butcha wrote:

 Fellwing wrote:

GW isn't so stupid as to shelve a long standing popular line.

Many of us would have thought that GW wasn't so stupid as to destroy a long-standing, popular Intellectual Property either, but they just blew up the Old Worlde.

Tons of novels, a roleplaying game, Warhammer Quest mobile game, etc. I kind of wonder how the people who are releasing the Mordheim and Skaven video games feel about it?

"We just signed an agreement to develop a game based on your IP, and you just blew up everything in that IP?"

"Can we get a refund?"

See, taking the death of the Olde World at face value is also a bit premature. Yes, that's what it says happened in one supplement series. It's something that can be very easily retconned, re-written, etc. It's just a fictional universe, anything can happen.

I actually wouldn't put it past GW to have done this as a means of fostering support for WHFB by "destroying it" then they go into 9th, bring it all back and get relieved fans back in droves. Manipulative? Yes. Effective? Maybe. Something they would do? Absolutely.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
It's about the same, if your concept of 40k is Boyz-heavy Orkz, Gaunt-heavy Nids, or full-Mech Guardsman-heavy Guard played at 2,000 points - literally the most expensive ways to play 40k possible, and all sub-par in effectiveness.

WFB 8E is an expensive edition, due to the shift toward Hordes.

That shift lasted for like a year, tops. The only people who still run hordes are people who chose to play horde armies, and hobbyists who like throwing giant bricks of infantry onto the table.

There is no shift to hordes. The supposed "randomness" of 8th edition is offset by the precision of premeasuring. Perhaps these things would be apparent if you actually PLAYED the game you are criticizing.

Seriously, ITT people who don't actually play WHFB talking about what's wrong with WHFB. Why should GW give half a gak what you think, if you aren't even a customer?

My gentle suggestion for you would be to engage your brain before you post claims that someone isn't a customer. My signature clearly enumerates over 31,000 points of GW product, of which 4,500 points is Dogs of War for Warhammer Fantasy, and that ignores my BFG and other SG stuff. I've played GW games starting with Dark Future, and I played Fantasy from the start of the modern era, 6th onward. There are multiple pictures showing various GW whatnots I've built and painted. I still play 40k, etc. I am definitely a GW customer, whether you like it or not. As an actual customer with a not insubstantial investment in GW product, including WFB product, GW should give quite a few gaks what I think.

As for what's wrong with WFB, I also hazard a guess that part of what's wrong with the game might well include persons with attitudes such as yourself, shooting from the hip with unsubstantiated accusations and claims. Whether one plays, or not, they are still a customer, and that is something you should get straight in your head..

4,500 points in 5th edition maybe. DoW haven't been a legal army in the better part of a decade. You may play 40K, but you can no longer be considered a current customer of WHFB. So why should GW care what you have to think about a product line you haven't supported in a decade, and which you show such clear misunderstanding about that you're unlikely to resume doing so even if a new edition were to come out?

Because seriously....what would it take to get you back into WHFB? Lower model count, like with the rumoured skirmish game? A setting that you like...being perhaps the one that's existed for the past 30 years, and for which a wealth of information and material remains available? Or just fundamental changes to a rule system that everybody who HAS been playing and spending for the past decade continues to enjoy.

See now, here, you're just demonstrating yourself to be totally ignorant and ill-informed with respect to Dogs of War. While the last printed Warhammer Armies : Dogs of War army book was in 5th Edition, DoW had a full army list in 6th Edition spread across a few White Dwarf articles. In 6th, DoW were fully-supported army with multiple additional releases through the Storm of Chaos campaign, having Dogs of War as an official faction that counted a such. Going into 7th in 2006, Dogs of War were still available, carrying their 6E rules over. At the end of 7th, Dogs of War were removed as an active faction. As for being a current player of WFB, that would be due to GW stopping support of my army going into 8th Edition (2010). I was still playing DoW with the last half-decade.

GW should care deeply about bringing me back, given that they were the ones who pushed me out. The idea that I would restart with hordes in 8th is ludicrous, no misunderstanding there.

If GW wants me back, they can bring everyone down to the same status as Dogs of War, and have everyone start over with a a lower model count game, with rules that do not push players into boring blocks of samey models.

And your claims of enjoyment? Yeah, let's pull your army from support, and see how much you enjoy that.

The IP that they "gutted" was essentially a bunch of substantially generic fantasy races set in a generic fantasy world, based on a real world globe and with races clearly anchored in historical parallels. So far as intellectual property is concerned that's pretty shallow. Now they filled that world with a treasure trove of stories and lore over the years, but the world that contained it all was rather weak.

I would argue that giving clear historical and geographical ties to different factions made the world stronger; it's not just 'generic good human kingdom with holy warriors', it's 'Arthurian reference kingdom that satirizes the Hollywood Dark Ages and also our version of France'. It made for a strong well of side jokes and parody in the background, which helped to distinguish Warhammer from any number of other settings and fit with their occasionally whimsical, occasionally brutal and pitch-black sense of humor. Maybe GW has decided they don't like that any more, but it hardly makes the world 'weak'.

What's next? Getting rid of Ghazghkull Mag Uruk Thraka because his name's a pretty clear joke about Margaret Thatcher? Nah, GeeDub wouldn't change the name of a long-standing part of their world on a whim like -

*looks at Astra Militarum Codex*

...oh...noooooooo...

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:

Because seriously....what would it take to get you back into WHFB? Lower model count, like with the rumoured skirmish game? A setting that you like...being perhaps the one that's existed for the past 30 years, and for which a wealth of information and material remains available? Or just fundamental changes to a rule system that everybody who HAS been playing and spending for the past decade continues to enjoy.

This is demonstrably untrue as GW is losing sales volume. The most recent 1/2 year report saw a reduction in sales of 6.6% (or 1.7% if you're easily confused by bright lights and take their excuse of constant currency at face value AND don't know how to read financial sheets for an international firm). The difference in revenue between fiscal years 2013 and 2014 (end of June 2014) was a loss of about 8.25%. So yeah, they're not healthier now and stronger now than they've ever been, unless you've only been playing a couple of years and even then losing that much money does not show that they're selling huge piles of plastic crack to waiting hordes of people.

Now, that said, we know anecdotally and through distributor data that 40k outsells WHFB by a healthy margin. So the question is, if the company is losing money and not just a little money but millions of pounds per year and they're down to two game systems; which game system is the weight dragging the drowning man to the bottom?

I like WHFB, 8th isn't terribad, and the only concern that I have with 9th is that my huge Ogre army will just collect dust on the shelf (not necessarily a bad thing since they're desert themed ) but I'm willing to wait and see what happens. If they're "squatted" like rumors suggest, I'll toss them in the trash and move on, the same with my VC army.

 Fellwing wrote:

Bloody pessimists are really starting to do my tree in.

Bloody deniers did my tree in long ago. Especially when the only pessimism in my post was the last sentence about how well 9th ed might do. Everything else was repetition of what the reliable sources with inside tracks have said. "There's no evidence!" and "8th ed was very popular!" and "Surely they'll retcon it!" are the wilder flights of fancy in comparison.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:


Once again, what I see in this thread is a whole bunch of people who haven't played WHFB in over a decade, decrying the loss of something they don't actively participate in and no longer spend money on. So why should their opinions matter?

If these poster's opinions don't matter, then why are your panties all twisted about what they are saying? Obviously it bothers you a great deal even thought GW doesn't care in the slightest.

 agnosto wrote:

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:

Because seriously....what would it take to get you back into WHFB? Lower model count, like with the rumoured skirmish game? A setting that you like...being perhaps the one that's existed for the past 30 years, and for which a wealth of information and material remains available? Or just fundamental changes to a rule system that everybody who HAS been playing and spending for the past decade continues to enjoy.

This is demonstrably untrue as GW is losing sales volume. The most recent 1/2 year report saw a reduction in sales of 6.6% (or 1.7% if you're easily confused by bright lights and take their excuse of constant currency at face value AND don't know how to read financial sheets for an international firm). The difference in revenue between fiscal years 2013 and 2014 (end of June 2014) was a loss of about 8.25%. So yeah, they're not healthier now and stronger now than they've ever been, unless you've only been playing a couple of years and even then losing that much money does not show that they're selling huge piles of plastic crack to waiting hordes of people.

Now, that said, we know anecdotally and through distributor data that 40k outsells WHFB by a healthy margin. So the question is, if the company is losing money and not just a little money but millions of pounds per year and they're down to two game systems; which game system is the weight dragging the drowning man to the bottom?

I like WHFB, 8th isn't terribad, and the only concern that I have with 9th is that my huge Ogre army will just collect dust on the shelf (not necessarily a bad thing since they're desert themed ) but I'm willing to wait and see what happens. If they're "squatted" like rumors suggest, I'll toss them in the trash and move on, the same with my VC army.

The bigger question is: are they making changes to WHFB because it's "losing money," or because - given the incredible surge in fantasy-themed tabletop games, they're giving it extra attention because they think the fantasy segment of the wargaming market has more growth potential. You don't spend huge amounts of money on a high-end premium book series just to throw the entire system into the dust bin and start over. This is a hype machine, meant to attract attention to a system that they're about to amend to encourage new players to join in.

The issue with WHFB is that the entry cost is prohibitively high for many new players, and as a result those players are drawn to other game systems. However, over TIME, those same players likely spend the same amount of money as is required to get up to tournament-level WHFB armies, so it's really just a matter of finding a way to ease them into it. People have been saying that WHFB needs some sort of skirmish mode to ease new players in, and by all accounts that sounds like what they're bringing.

I doubt we'll see our old armies go away. All they have to do is not change the system overmuch and the majority of the vets will stick around. What I *DO* foresee them doing is giving us a new way to spend money. Something like a more robust ally system, or perhaps grouping factions together so that you can mix-and-match as you please.

For instance, it may just be that your Ogres army becomes a subfaction of Orcs and Goblins, such that all of a sudden you can add a whole bunch of black orcs, savage orcs, or goblin warmachines to your roster. There's already precedent for goblins within an Ogre army, they just have a different name for...no good reason at all.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:

The bigger question is: are they making changes to WHFB because it's "losing money," or because - given the incredible surge in fantasy-themed tabletop games, they're giving it extra attention because they think the fantasy segment of the wargaming market has more growth potential. You don't spend huge amounts of money on a high-end premium book series just to throw the entire system into the dust bin and start over. This is a hype machine, meant to attract attention to a system that they're about to amend to encourage new players to join in.

The issue with WHFB is that the entry cost is prohibitively high for many new players, and as a result those players are drawn to other game systems. However, over TIME, those same players likely spend the same amount of money as is required to get up to tournament-level WHFB armies, so it's really just a matter of finding a way to ease them into it. People have been saying that WHFB needs some sort of skirmish mode to ease new players in, and by all accounts that sounds like what they're bringing.

I doubt we'll see our old armies go away. All they have to do is not change the system overmuch and the majority of the vets will stick around. What I *DO* foresee them doing is giving us a new way to spend money. Something like a more robust ally system, or perhaps grouping factions together so that you can mix-and-match as you please.

For instance, it may just be that your Ogres army becomes a subfaction of Orcs and Goblins, such that all of a sudden you can add a whole bunch of black orcs, savage orcs, or goblin warmachines to your roster. There's already precedent for goblins within an Ogre army, they just have a different name for...no good reason at all.

In answer to your question, I'll pose one in return. What causation can there be for a company to radically change an existing product line? Money. GW is in business to make as large a profit as possible and is actually responsible to shareholders to do so. Responsible companies accomplish this by aggressive marketing, research, customer outreach and communication and other methods to engage the people whose wallets they hope to dip into. Historically, GW has failed on this front but has maintained their market leader status for a number of reasons that I won't go into unless you're really interested. Times have changed over the past several years and the tabletop gaming industry is experiencing large growth (15%-20%) while GW is in decline. Low-cost competitors such as Mantic are nipping at their heels. So, GW's response to these external pressures? Recession, raise prices. Competitors, say they don't exist while wasting millions suing a garage business. Loss of sales, create more adversarial relationship with independent stockists and make it more difficult for customers to find your product outside of their website/sparsely located stores.

Really, 8th edition was the least of their worries. They could have found ways to streamline processes or reduce packaging costs to pass savings onto the customer rather than just throw it all out. Also, now they're generating (intentional or not) a great deal of community ill-will with their usual non-communication with the community. Instead of hinting at what comes after they blow up the world and kill off all of the characters, hints would be fine, they're silent. This means many people stop buying. I don't know about you, but I don't rush out and buy something if I don't know it will be useful 2 months later. Many people on this board have said their buying is on hold (mine as well) until they see what happens. Here's a clue; this is not good business. A business should never encourage people to stop buying its product (unless its unsafe and being recalled); it should create an environment where people want to spend their money on the product.
Customers: Great, you blew up the WHFB world, now what?
GW: Now, we're going to roll out bloodthirster rules for 40k, an unrelated product, followed by several weeks of Ad-Mech, another unrelated product.
Customers: Uhh....so, should I just stop buying your stuff now and forget about you?
GW: No!, buy the 40k stuff.
Customers: Not really interested.... Oh wow, look at the cool stuff company X is coming out with soon. Why don't you tell me what's coming up next for fantasy...or is it over forever now that it's blown up?
GW: We don't hint at things to come, buy a white dwarf each week and you'll know the week before something is released, but we don't promise anything will be released or will tell you about anything in development.
Customers: But Forgeworld does, aren't they GW too?
GW; Look, something shiney!

Yes, hyperbole but I think you get the point. Communication is key and in the absence of communication, the lowest common denominator wins, every time.

As to rolling existing armies into other armies. I don't really see this happening without units/models going away; this leaves me with a bunch of useless plastic. Yay? Thank you? I'll wait and see what happens but if Ogres become part of Orcs and Goblins, I hope they change that army's backstory because I absolutely hate the keystone cops feel to it.

 agnosto wrote:

In answer to your question, I'll pose one in return. What causation can there be for a company to radically change an existing product line? Money. GW is in business to make as large a profit as possible and is actually responsible to shareholders to do so. Responsible companies accomplish this by aggressive marketing, research, customer outreach and communication and other methods to engage the people whose wallets they hope to dip into. Historically, GW has failed on this front but has maintained their market leader status for a number of reasons that I won't go into unless you're really interested. Times have changed over the past several years and the tabletop gaming industry is experiencing large growth (15%-20%) while GW is in decline. Low-cost competitors such as Mantic are nipping at their heels. So, GW's response to these external pressures? Recession, raise prices. Competitors, say they don't exist while wasting millions suing a garage business. Loss of sales, create more adversarial relationship with independent stockists and make it more difficult for customers to find your product outside of their website/sparsely located stores.

Really, 8th edition was the least of their worries. They could have found ways to streamline processes or reduce packaging costs to pass savings onto the customer rather than just throw it all out. Also, now they're generating (intentional or not) a great deal of community ill-will with their usual non-communication with the community. Instead of hinting at what comes after they blow up the world and kill off all of the characters, hints would be fine, they're silent. This means many people stop buying. I don't know about you, but I don't rush out and buy something if I don't know it will be useful 2 months later. Many people on this board have said their buying is on hold (mine as well) until they see what happens. Here's a clue; this is not good business. A business should never encourage people to stop buying its product (unless its unsafe and being recalled); it should create an environment where people want to spend their money on the product.
Customers: Great, you blew up the WHFB world, now what?
GW: Now, we're going to roll out bloodthirster rules for 40k, an unrelated product, followed by several weeks of Ad-Mech, another unrelated product.
Customers: Uhh....so, should I just stop buying your stuff now and forget about you?
GW: No!, buy the 40k stuff.
Customers: Not really interested.... Oh wow, look at the cool stuff company X is coming out with soon. Why don't you tell me what's coming up next for fantasy...or is it over forever now that it's blown up?
GW: We don't hint at things to come, buy a white dwarf each week and you'll know the week before something is released, but we don't promise anything will be released or will tell you about anything in development.
Customers: But Forgeworld does, aren't they GW too?
GW; Look, something shiney!

Yes, hyperbole but I think you get the point. Communication is key and in the absence of communication, the lowest common denominator wins, every time.

As to rolling existing armies into other armies. I don't really see this happening without units/models going away; this leaves me with a bunch of useless plastic. Yay? Thank you? I'll wait and see what happens but if Ogres become part of Orcs and Goblins, I hope they change that army's backstory because I absolutely hate the keystone cops feel to it.

What I'm essentially saying is that I doubt they'll invalidate any of the plastic ranges. The writing has been on the wall in terms of metal and finecast for some time now, which is I think what rolling armies in together will accomplish. There are only a few armies still that are heavily reliant on metal and finecast for anything other than characters and warmachines, many of those characters being now deceased.


As for the communication...yeah not going to argue with you at all there. I myself have held off purchasing while I wait to see what happens with the new edition, and am just focusing on getting stuff painted up for the remaining 8th edition events I have planned. I'm not trying to say that GW isn't mind-bogglingly bad at customer and third-party retailer relations, and that many of its business decisions are poorly-conceived at the best of times. However it's a big leap to go from there to "scorched-earth, WHFB is losing money so let's kill it off in spectacular fashion." To me it's quite obvious that the ET are a hype engine, and that whatever they're leading up to will be the result of a significant amount of effort and development resources. The massive changes to the fluff are paving the way for that.

 Fellwing wrote:

GW isn't so stupid as to shelve a long standing popular line.

Just like they still provide support for Epic. GW will happily kill off entire games that it deems to be 'underperforming'.

I for one have been very disappointed with the state of fantasy, particularly 8th edition.
To answer the original post, there is a store in my hometown that is putting all fantasy products on sale at 30% off, they used to have a large fantasy following but since the end times hit their sales have dropped to zero. The store owner even asked his sales rep what was going on, and got the usual corporate "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain, buy more stuff" response. Fantasy used to be my go-to game, I used to make fun of 40k players by saying that they played checkers while fantasy players played chess (this was back in 6th which was, in my opinion, the best edition of fantasy. Certainly the most popular in my area). Since then fantasy has become less and less interesting to me while 40k has really stepped up its game in terms of gameplay.
I never thought I'd see a day where I owned 5 40k armies and 1 fantasy army (Daemons, which I specifically kept because I can use them in 40k )

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:
To me it's quite obvious that the ET are a hype engine, and that whatever they're leading up to will be the result of a significant amount of effort and development resources. The massive changes to the fluff are paving the way for that.

ET is actually something they did fairly well in the beginning from a story perspective (the rules suck but that's my subjective opinion so not relevant). It drew people back in, it built hype, it forwarded a storyline. Where I think they erred is that instead of leaving us all on the cusp of destruction like in 40k, the whole 10 seconds to midnight thing, they went ahead and blew it up and then didn't even leave us with a whisper of what comes next. Honestly, it'd serve the company right if people left en masse and never looked back.

I don't know what they'll do next but if it's, "Well, that didn't really happen because the god in space put it all back after the chaos gods got bored and wandered off." I'll feel cheated from a story standpoint. If it's all new story, all the established books, merchandise, software (even upcoming games) is all null and void and I'll feel cheated because then it feels like a cheap cash grab. I dunno. I guess, I'll see what they do and try to keep an open mind enough to give whatever comes out a shot as long as my models are still usable.

 agnosto wrote:
I don't know what they'll do next but if it's, "Well, that didn't really happen because the god in space put it all back after the chaos gods got bored and wandered off." I'll feel cheated from a story standpoint. If it's all new story, all the established books, merchandise, software (even upcoming games) is all null and void and I'll feel cheated because then it feels like a cheap cash grab. I dunno. I guess, I'll see what they do and try to keep an open mind enough to give whatever comes out a shot as long as my models are still usable.

How is it a cash grab if they start the story over again? A large portion of that fluff update will be in the BRB and the armybooks, which presumably you're buying and reading anyways. Quite honestly, I would feel like I am getting MORE bang for my back when I actually feel compelled to *read* the fluff section rather than just ignore it since there hasn't been anything new added to it in a decade. All the books you enjoyed over the years are still there, and moving the plot forward doesn't mean they're retconning that stuff out. Just means that any new books will be really interesting, and covering new parts of a world we have yet to explore. Sounds again like better value for me.

Can't argue with you on the information side though. It's killing me not knowing what's coming next. I'm cautiously optimistic of what is to come, but the uncertainty is really putting a damper on my enjoyment of the hobby.

Some posters have said that the End Times fluff books were well written. Is that the consensus? Having read the spoilers on 4chan, I got the impression the End Times were hastily thrown together and a bit Wardish on the fluff. However, if they are enjoyable to read for their own sake, then I'll put them on my wishlist to buy after the End Times have been Stor of Chaosed and come down significantly in price used.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Some posters have said that the End Times fluff books were well written. Is that the consensus? Having read the spoilers on 4chan, I got the impression the End Times were hastily thrown together and a bit Wardish on the fluff. However, if they are enjoyable to read for their own sake, then I'll put them on my wishlist to buy after the End Times have been Stor of Chaosed and come down significantly in price used.

That would be because they contained the wards last work for GW , also in another thread there was an interview with the writer of the last et book who said he was given a month to write it.

SeanDrake wrote:


That would be because they contained the wards last work for GW , also in another thread there was an interview with the writer of the last et book who said he was given a month to write it.

can anyone point me to that interview, sounds good for a laugh.

My FLGS hasn't put anything on clearance, but they're also a pretty major indy for GW and have been able to keep 40k product moving without any difficulty. Fantasy hasn't stagnated there, but sales are painfully slow. The resident WHFB group is pretty much just pretending that the End Times never happened, are are happily playing 8th Edition.

Really, that store's WHFB sales and attendence went into the toilet during the transition from 7th to 8th. The only people left are lifers, so short of destroying the enti-

...oh. Hm.

Back in St. Louis WFB was actually gaining steam during 8th. Unfortunately, work forced me to relocate to - well, it's not the middle of nowhere, but it certainly is nowhere and I can actually see the middle from here - so I don't know what effect End Times has had on the STL community.

(The people out here are so far off the mainstream that 'wargame' or 'RPG' automatically means 'on the computer', and 'tabletop game' is something kids play like Monopoly or Sorry. Even MtG never got off the ground here. Bloody yokels!)

I'm with Agnosto on this one. I cannot for the life of me fathom GW's rational on Warhammer fantasy.

With the fantasy world ending, and a few months gap until 9th (in whatever form) people are saying there's no point buying anything because we don't know what 9th will be like, and we certainly don't know if our armies will still be valid.

So you have this black hole of fantasy struggling to sell for a few months, which dents GW's profits even more, and effects the viability of the company.

Utter madness.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
I'm with Agnosto on this one. I cannot for the life of me fathom GW's rational on Warhammer fantasy.

With the fantasy world ending, and a few months gap until 9th (in whatever form) people are saying there's no point buying anything because we don't know what 9th will be like, and we certainly don't know if our armies will still be valid.

So you have this black hole of fantasy struggling to sell for a few months, which dents GW's profits even more, and effects the viability of the company.

Utter madness.

I totally agree I was about to start a new Dwarf army when all this fell so honestly im totally holding off on warhammer until I know where it stands. So they already lost a good few months of sales there.

 AtomicEngineer wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
I'm with Agnosto on this one. I cannot for the life of me fathom GW's rational on Warhammer fantasy.

With the fantasy world ending, and a few months gap until 9th (in whatever form) people are saying there's no point buying anything because we don't know what 9th will be like, and we certainly don't know if our armies will still be valid.

So you have this black hole of fantasy struggling to sell for a few months, which dents GW's profits even more, and effects the viability of the company.

Utter madness.

I totally agree I was about to start a new Dwarf army when all this fell so honestly im totally holding off on warhammer until I know where it stands. So they already lost a good few months of sales there.

I'll say to you what I've said to a few others: DO NOT BUY ANY GW FANTASY PRODUCTS (apologies for the capitals ) until we know what the situation is regarding 9th.

GW will sell 8th editions products right up until the minute they bring out 9th, and then you're left standing with an army you can't even use in 9th anymore.

Unless there's a specific model you want just to HAVE it. Then get that now. I bought the $195 Nurgle box, but I really wanted the Chaos End Times models and want them even if discontinued. But if you're collecting for an army for gameplay, hold off.

Da Butcha wrote:

Many of us would have thought that GW wasn't so stupid as to destroy a long-standing, popular Intellectual Property either, but they just blew up the Old Worlde.

Tons of novels, a roleplaying game, Warhammer Quest mobile game, etc. I kind of wonder how the people who are releasing the Mordheim and Skaven video games feel about it?

"We just signed an agreement to develop a game based on your IP, and you just blew up everything in that IP?"

"Can we get a refund?"

Well Mordheim was already blown up, and Vermintide is specifically put in the End Times.
I can't see there being any objections.

Animus wrote:

Da Butcha wrote:

Many of us would have thought that GW wasn't so stupid as to destroy a long-standing, popular Intellectual Property either, but they just blew up the Old Worlde.

Tons of novels, a roleplaying game, Warhammer Quest mobile game, etc. I kind of wonder how the people who are releasing the Mordheim and Skaven video games feel about it?

"We just signed an agreement to develop a game based on your IP, and you just blew up everything in that IP?"

"Can we get a refund?"

Well Mordheim was already blown up, and Vermintide is specifically put in the End Times.
I can't see there being any objections.

Well there's warhammer total war, but since they did not pay gw for the license I doubt gw give a flying feth about them.
But i can certainly say that ca/sega are not overly impressed.

Actually do you think GW are spiteful enough to blow up the old world to let them sell licences for the new IP?