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 Da Kommizzar wrote:
Can Seraphim be taken as troops with Celestine? If so, you get a unit that is quick enough to keep up too for the troops section.

Sadly, no. There are no HQ unlocks in the Sisters codex.

 Da Kommizzar wrote:
Side-note:

Spoiler:

Irrelevant to tactics, but I prefer to refrain from taking foreign troops in my armies. Whether this is infantry in general or just troop choices, I have an obsessive compulsion to keep a pure-strain for whatever reason in regards to foreign-codex troop choices. Grotz/Orks, Kroot/Firewarriors, and things like that are okay to me; beyond that I get restless. Does anyone else have this issue?

Apparently, you're not forging the narrative hard enough

You're not alone: I rarely run allies. If I do, it's almost always another detachment from an IoM list and it's done mainly because I like a particular model or unit. Also, I find adding allies tends to dilute the effectiveness of the primary detachment.

I know what you mean -- I'm not a fan of "allying for advantage", I like things fluffy and stylish. That said MT has some holes in their codex (like relics, special wargear, special rules and named characters) so it's nice to cover what you can.

Other unique characters that synergize with MT:

Elam Courbray (Fire Hawks). First, you get to add Jump Packs to the Command Squad he unlocks for 35pts. That means 4x Meltaguns/Meltabombs on a 3+ Jump Infantry unit. Ouch! Special rules are Hit and Run and Counter-attack, so you can't get pinned down, and these two USRs are exactly what you need to support a MT squad. Not a superb tank at 3+/4++ 3W, and must accept challenges. But you do get WS6 I6 on a Power Sword with Rending, Soul Blaze, and Smash. Deep Strike the scout tax in a Speeder, or put them into an AA emplacement.

Korvydae (Raven Guard). You can't avoid the scout tax, but he unlocks ASM as a troops choice. 2+, 4++, 3W, Thunder Hammer, Melta Bombs, and confers Hit and Run. Raven Guard boosts Jump Units, and puts Scout and Stealth on everything else. So you can grab 2x ASM to clean up light Infantry with Flamers, or tarpit MCs, while your Scouts start positioned in cover with a 2+ Save (Cloaks, Stealth) and a Hellfire Heavy Bolter on turn 1.

Tyberios (Carchodons). Unlocks LC Assault Terminators as troops. Has Fear and a Teleport Homer, so he can DS with the Scions and his Terminator retinue won't scatter afterwards. Pretty formidable tank due to TDA but only a 5++ Invul save. Also splits 5A w/Chainfist or LCs, so he's flexible in melee. Expensive though!

Narvaez (Marines Errant). Has a MC-Plasma gun and a 3++ Invul save. More importantly, he can DS D3 units by Teleportation, meaning an attached Command Squad and maybe the obligatory Tacs. Ultramarines doctrines will go decently with a 5x Plasma Command Squad.

Lias Issodon (Raptors): Not a DS unit, just very talented infantry. He can confer Outflank. A 2+ 4W tank, helps reserve rolls, confers Shrouded, has a Locator Beacon to negate DS scatter, puts D3 Haywire hits on enemy vehicles or D6+3 AP- wounds after scout deployments, has a 2/4 Salvo Sternguard bolter. Raptors models all have Scout and Stealth, and Heavy 1 Rending bolters, so even your Tac Tax might become useful. Somewhat fluffy since they're like the Delta to the Scion's Rangers.

BA Captain with the Angel's Wing Relic: A pretty typical 3+/4++ tank. However -- the Angel's Wing relic means all interception is reduced to snap shots, and you can reroll scatter. One of the best options out there in an unnamed HQ. Upgrade to 2+ and Plasma/Power Weapons if you want.

Jump/TDA Librarians. Pretty straightforward. Not great tanks due to 2W and a 5++ save, cannot sweep either. But they can get to 2ML, so good if you want Psykers. Choose them based on the Psychic Powers and Chapter Tactics you want (Mantis Warriors pick up Divination as a FW Chapter Tactic).

Jump Chaplains. CC support, you probably want WS for Hit and Run, Counterattack (SW), BT or Executioners to help them in melee, or maybe IWND (IH) for regen if tanking.

Ordo Malleus Inquisitors. Get teleportation with TDA. One nice thing, your Psycannon hits at S7 with Rending, so it can go very well with a Melta squad. It doesn't come with a troop tax either. Psyker optional.

Ordo Xenos Inquisitors. Not Jump Capable. They are very nice for CC support (Rad Grenades in particular). Conversion Beamer is a S10 AP1 Blast at 42"+ for 45pts. Psyker optional. He doesn't have Divination himself, but Perfect Timing will make this weapon Ignores Cover.

DA Librarius Conclave. Ezekiel and 2-4 Librarians, plus a lot of special rules. The only formation to get 4x Jump Psykers and 11WC into your army (though Apoc has a similar formation).

Ravenwing Black Knights. They have a Rad Grenade launcher, which can helps your S3 guns perform way better from T2 to T7 (excluding T6) and will let you double out T4 with Plasma and T5 with Krak/Melta.

These are ICs (and 1 Formation/Unit) that synergize well with your troops and your army. But they won't fill in the gaps where you lack AA and long-ranged AT, for example, or change your playstyle much. You are just refining your DS edge, and adding in a bit of CC utility. I'd stay away from adding too much SM heavy support in the interests of the fluff.

Referring to the two formations in the scion book, which do you think would perform better the Valkyrie formations or the taurox formation? Also assume you have some other force to start on the board as I don't remember if the taurox formation has to start in reserves but as a balance to the valks starting in reserves.

The tauroxs seem to bring some mobile fast fire power but are extremely fragile with really light armor, but they do have some decent firepower.

The valks being flyers are harder to hit unless your opponent has massed sky fire. But the valks with rocket pods could probably thin out hordes better than the tauroxs and cover and area that the scions need help in.

Thread subbed!
I'm interested in all this...
Otherwise, what do you guys think of trying something like this?



/tl;dr
Ally with deathwing and Inquisition, and Deep strike everything in on turn 2 to wreck face

I think as a primary formation, they have some pretty major drawbacks. No DSing, less orders, less flexibility in deployment. Their special rules are not nearly enough to compensate -- the real killer is unfortunately Objective Secure. As an allied force.... maybe.

The Ground Formation should go AC/ML/HK missile and take advantage of that only Interceptor can hurt the flimsy gun trucks when they arrive. Outgoing firepower is your main protection, so you want to kill as much as possible in your turn to minimize return fire. Plasma is probably best on your troops for the range. Disembark all your guys for TL and Pinning, rinse and repeat. You can actually stagger fire between the squads if you're slick. Keep the squads small to economize.

Valks have MRPs, which is nice, but you should very carefully consider if you need 550pts invested in anti-horde. An allied army will do this cheaper. The best benefit in the formation is the Grav-Chute Insertion rule. The main drawback is that you're reserving a ton of points that could have gone elsewhere. It can easily pass 1000pts if you're not careful. The troops can be a clean-up crew with Flamers on everyone, which are not as impressive as 4x Plasma but is more importantly cheap. With 10x Flamers and no Valk upgrades, this formation costs 870pts. That's about as cheap as you can get it -- prioritize your allied CAD, and if there are points left over, maybe you can get some upgrades on the Valk. Maybe.

@talon, that is a fun looking list but it is mostly Deathwing right? MT can definitely offer 4x TL weapons wherever you want. The other Scion squad might be useful with Volleyguns. Your opponent likely won't prioritize them next to all the termies and once they're set, you get a lot of cheap fire AP3 fire to throw around. You could also try DSing Ordo Malleus Psykers with your Scions, and then trying to link up with Deathwing the next turn. Drop Psykers have some cool options available -- you can Shriek tough units like Riptides, fire a free Heavy Flamer, hit units locked in combat with Nova witchfires, and so on.

Try it and post some reports

In regards to which Formation is better to me its the Taurox Prime one hands down since Valkyries are really not that amazing. In regards to allies or even a second CAD I would highly recommend the "Armored Battlegroup" from Imperial Armor Volume #1 2nd Edition, as you could get a few Vanquishers with the dreaded Beast Hunter Shells that can instant death MC's which is VERY useful, especially against Eldar, Tau and Tyranids.

the_Armyman wrote:

 Da Kommizzar wrote:
Side-note:

Spoiler:

Irrelevant to tactics, but I prefer to refrain from taking foreign troops in my armies. Whether this is infantry in general or just troop choices, I have an obsessive compulsion to keep a pure-strain for whatever reason in regards to foreign-codex troop choices. Grotz/Orks, Kroot/Firewarriors, and things like that are okay to me; beyond that I get restless. Does anyone else have this issue?

Apparently, you're not forging the narrative hard enough

You're not alone: I rarely run allies. If I do, it's almost always another detachment from an IoM list and it's done mainly because I like a particular model or unit. Also, I find adding allies tends to dilute the effectiveness of the primary detachment.

I am okay with having Troops choices of the same army. Foreign troops are looked down upon in my army lists, especially if they fill similar categories. (ie: Space Marine Scouts or Imperial Guardsmen allying with Militarum Tempestus). I also dislike to have troops choices within the same army from the same codex that are too similar. (ie: I cannot stand to mix AM Veterans with AM Guarsmen). The only exception is if the units from the same codex are drastically different (ie: Kroot and Fire warriors). When it comes to drastically different allied troop choices, I get fidgety but can be persuaded to allow them in. (ie: Space Marines with IG) Finally, there are obvious selections that are perfectly acceptable for me to choose because either the allied troops/units are different enough or are connected enough in my "right way" (ie: Steel Company Tanks, Assassins, or Inquisitors allied with MT)

tl;dr: I'm really really weird, okay?

Talon of Anathrax wrote:Thread subbed!
I'm interested in all this...
Otherwise, what do you guys think of trying something like this?

Spoiler:

HQ
- Belial
- Inquisitor w/ 3 servo-skulls, rad grenades, mastery level 1, force sword, power armor
- Inquisitor w/ 3 servo-skulls, rad grenades, mastery level 1, force sword, power armor
- Tempestus command squad w/ 4 meltaguns, plasma pistol

Troops
- 5 Deathwing terminators w/ assault cannon, chainfist
- 5 Deathwing terminators w/ assault cannon, chainfist
- 5 Tempestus Scions w/ 2 plasmaguns

Elite
- Deathwing Knights
- Henchmen (1 psyker, 1 ministorum priest, 4 crusaders, 4 death cult assassins)
- Henchmen (2 psykers, 1 mystic)
- Henchmen (2 psykers, 1 mystic)

Fast attack
- Valkyrie w/ Missile pods, Heavy bolters

Heavy Support
- Whirlwind
- Whirlwind
- Whirlwind

Fortification
- Aegis defence line w/ quad gun, comms relay

Right now, the plan is to deep strike everything I can on turn two, and play a really defensive turn one. The 5 space marines are mostly to provide a bit more survivability, and some objective secured behind the aegis (I know it's not very good, but I didn't have any better ideas). The small units of henchmen should be infiltrated (if my inquisitor warlord gets the right warlord trait), or otherwise maybe just be used as a warp charge battery and a better chance to roll invisibility or shrouded.
Any tips?
And should I get a deathwing banner? (if yes, with what points?)

/tl;dr
Ally with deathwing and Inquisition, and Deep strike everything in on turn 2 to wreck face

Well, the MT presence is really... lacking and they are allies, not the core. This is a Deathwing List with minor Scion fillings.
Regardless, I think the whirlwinds are out of place in this sort of army and the Valkyrie is unnecessary. I recommend more deepstrike forces or a hold-out team to wair for the deepstrikers. When looking at your list, I automatically looked at the Scions, who should be deepstriking too. In your list, I suggest just taking Astra Militarum instead of Militarum Tempestus so that you can have a real board presence turn one.

Then again, I could be interpreting your list wrong.

One thing i think needs discussing in a tatics thread is what you have found to be the best orders when and with what weapons? im not the best player so maybe its obvious but there seems to be a bit of cross over with some of the orders.

Also do you think the warlord traits are any good? seems like the best is the drop chute commander one.

The trait where any unit within 12" of your commander gets +6" range on their hotshot lasguns/pistols seems like it could be fairly useful, too.

I'm running an MT core in an upcoming league at my LGS, though I'm probably going to turn it into a Daemonhunters force (stormtroopers, inquisitors, and a few Grey Knights) when the points values bump up a bit. First games are 1000 points, no allies so I'm looking at a command squad, 2 full squads to camp my backfield (2x plasma guns apiece), 2 small melta squads riding valkyries (with rocket pods and heavy bolters) and a suicide flamer squad to try and root enemies out of the cover that they'll certainly be trying to enjoy. The list is based mostly around what I've already got floating around, so we'll see how it actually does the first time out.

 DarkNecro wrote:
One thing i think needs discussing in a tatics thread is what you have found to be the best orders when and with what weapons? im not the best player so maybe its obvious but there seems to be a bit of cross over with some of the orders.

Orders:
Directed Firestorm Sanctioned-
I use this one the most out of any of them in the games I've played so far. The Twin-Linked, for me, is a go-to to ensure that Melta shot hits or the Lasgun Volley cuts down enough Space Marines.

Autonomous Fire Sanctioned-
Have not used this too much, but could be useful when being used on a Plasma-Command Squad to ensure no get's hot and that the shots wound.
Lasguns: Nah, in theory I would not bother.

Close Assault Doctrine Sanctioned-
Basically "Move Move Move", if you really need to get to a spot use this. This order fits better in a list without transports or when your squad needs to get to Point B and fast.

The assault part, not going to be used a lot with us, we are still guardsmen in assault. Maybe in a Banner, Power-Something squad? Very Situational, but handy to have around?

Advance on Target-
See Close Assault Doctrine for the basic intention in regards to assault. Very Situational

Suppression Doctrine Sanctioned-
Useful with Lasguns against TEQ, Pinning for low-LD squads, probably to prevent being charged that turn. It is up for debate if this would be necessary if you have Plasmaguns/Meltaguns in your squad or if having TL would be better. I suppose if you don't have Ap2 in the squad, then here you go.

Elimination Protocol Sanctioned-
Pepper on more wounds against the enemy MCs or let the low-powered special weapons do damage.

Also do you think the warlord traits are any good? seems like the best is the drop chute commander one.

Grav-Chute Commandoes- in a DS army
Drill Chief- generally you want to Rapid-Fire with our low numbers, but it can be useful
Intrepid Leader- is good due to our mediocre leadership.
Grenadier- If you want to throw your free-TL source at a tank, by all means (This is meant for Commissars)

The restriction on that Drill Chief trait is not using a move, which matches up to the Salvo restrictions on the Volleygun. So essentially it's a buff to your Volleygun squads. The other special weapons (excluding the GL) don't share the same range or target profile.

So this is a good time to talk a bit about Volleyguns. They are your only truly unique MT weapon. The first big drawback -- Salvo. They will only contribute +1S over a regular squad if you Deep Strike into Rapid Fire range. So it's easy to say "flawed weapon" and leave it at that. It's not the end of the story, though. Two things in particular to note. Your squads have far less damage falloff if you can keep your gunners alive and set. They are truly like squaddies with an LMG. As soon as they are positioned, it's where the majority of the squad's firepower and range comes from. With a 3-man squad, you can still attack each turn with 8x S4 AP3 shots, up to 24" away. Even in a 10-man squad, the entire squad's firepower is inferior to the two gunners at more than 9" away. So you really need to keep those guns alive and shooting.

The other thing to note, they throw out a lot of shots, period. The way to take advantage of this is Rending. This *is* built into the Scion Codex as the 6th order (only affects MCs and Vehicles). But a Divination Psyker can also throw this onto TEQs using Misfortune. Given at least two Volleyguns in the Squad, odds are 16/18 you score one Rending hit at S10. Given one Rending shot, your minimum AV damage is 11, maximum is 13(!). Curiously enough -- your chances of scoring a Pen hit on AV11 are *better* with 8x Rending Volleygun shots than 2x Melta, as soon as you're outside that 6" Melta Range! Within that range, you can throw 1x Krak grenade and plant as many as you have guys left anyway! The killer of course is if you fail the Order, and your guys have a 28% chance to flunk without a Vox.

Given this, how do you employ a Volleygun squad? They can help clean up after your Alpha Strike, they can hold Objectives at range without losing much firepower to attrition, and they can gun safely out of the Taurox fireports while protected by the AV10/11. With Orders, they can use Sniper to take on any 3+ save, high-Toughness target, or attempt Pinning to hold off assault by low-LD hordes. They can use Rending to go after vehicles and 2+ MCs. Or you can just buff them with TL/PE to even out bad rolling.

Losing the Volleyguns will hurt immensely, do everything you can to keep them alive and out of assault. Dropping a 10-man Scion squad to go after a 5-man Tac Squad within Rapid Fire range is risky. Odds are decent that the Tacs are destroyed, but if you get tied up in assault, a single Tac Marine can essentially take your squad out of the game for a few turns (or worse, sweep). So if you don't have some kind of way to help them in assault, it's way safer to attrite the Tacs from range.

Assault and the other special weapons are probably good subjects for a future post. You do need plasma for TEQs though, the Suppression order doesn't improve the AP value.

Volley Gun Rambling, not Ranting


I suppose it will be best to keep the Special Weapons trend going for this page.

In order of popularity (that I have seen, not my own):

Plasma:
Hey, We are basically IG, so why not have our reliable answer to anything TEQ? Also good for munching on MCs too. Where it lacks in stopping power against T4 MW Models, it makes up for in range and fire rate. These are highly necessary in MT lists that expect to see TEQ invasions.


Flamer:
Used a lot, but I typically stick with my Lasguns and Volleys for AP(Anti-Personnel). They ignore cover and can cause pain for hordes, good to have around for sure.

Hot-Shot Volley Gun:
Stock on our transports and handy in the hands of many, these guns cause pain to MEQ armies. You thought Plasma Guns were good? Wait til the beakie has to face 16 Str4 Ap3 Shots spitting out of a Taurox Prime instead of 8 Str 7 Ap2 Shots! That is not even counting the gun on the Taurox. What can't these guns do? Refer to the post above, they can't hurt AV14 and don't pierce TEQs even with orders involved. Well, geez, declaring their fault still makes them look good!

Melta
My favourite, because I like making sure the tank dies. Cheaper than Plasma Guns, but stronger. They sacrifice fire rate and range for sheer kill. Useful on suicide 5-man squads to make sure that tank doesn't do anything. When rapid firing with lasguns, you also have this shot there too. This is only good against vehicles and MW-T4 models. Any other case, the Plasma is better.

Grenade Launcher
Not taken that often at all, these little mini Autocannons that come with blast markers actually do a lot of damage. Generally taken on Imperial Guardsmen, they do serve their purpose in the hands of a BS 4 model. Taken the least out of the others because they can do everything, but can't do anything. However, if you throw orders into the mix, these can become pretty nasty for only a couple points each.

Melta v Plasma: Google Search this topic for Imperial Guard and you will find the debates. Generally Melta is suicidal and single-minded, Plasma is better for distance and flexibility. I still prefer Melta guns, but hey, Plasma wins out for a reason.

Remember that Directed Firestorm Orders cuts down on the Plasma risk.

I'm very much hoping that the Skitarii release will be good with the Scions, would be a really fun army to play. I'm hoping for some long range shooing power from them, and then use them in deep cover while I Deep Strike my Scions or zip up in Taurox Primes.

Here's some more "Volleygun rambling", this time on the Taurox.

If you have fire support units anchoring your backfield, a Volleygun/ML/HK setup becomes a specialist to clear out enemy DS units like Crisis Suits or Sternguard. You can protect them via Reserve, they're versatile enough to contribute to hulling out AV, but now they become one of the best units in the game to deal with any 3+ unit from a Marine to a Carnifex. Pretty much the only MC you're not deadly against is a Wraithknight, and in general don't expect the Autocannon to help you win big against AV13 Knights or AV12 Serpents anyway.

Given all this I'm thinking -- why not get Autocannons for cheap elsewhere in your army? The TXP is too expensive to be wasting shots on cheap armour like Rhinos or Chimeras, it needs to go after pricey 3+ units instead. Your Autocannons hit too slowly to make a difference against AV12 and the threat of S8 Krak is going to make skimmers Jink anyway. So why not run the Volleygun? You will need to clean up a lot of bikes, MCs, and other tough infantry in most games. And that's a niche role the TXP can occupy exceedingly well.

Just something I've been thinking over, I'm traveling so I have yet to try this on the tabletop!

Agree with sometimes using th VG on the TXP.

I think the main reason to use the AC is if you are also running Missiles and keeping the TXP really far away, then the AC has the complimentary range.

One other minor thing; don't forget to have one of your Scions throw a Krak Grenade if you're in range and it makes sense to do so. They can also Krak most vehicles to death in Assault.

I always take Volley Guns on TXP, have never done Autocannons because the Volley Gun is just too good to pass up when hull-mounted.

I run either stock-TXP or with a Missile Launcher. While the Battle Cannon is not very good necessarily, I like to save the points due to its fragility. I might run HKM though, come to think of it.

In general, do you find it's better to go MSU with Scions and just get as many special weapons as possible, or do you think units of 10 with minimal upgrades are the way to go?

I personally like the feel of having 10 bodies a squad to play with. It uses the space in the Taurox to the fullest and allows me to rely on the squad to be able to rapid-fire down Tac Squads and handle itself.

MSU is good when it is supported by massive amounts of tough targets that would prevent you from affording 10-man squads.

MSU are also good for suicidal squads.

In the end, a mixture of both is optimal,

I run:

x3 10-Man Squads
x1 5-Man Squads

:as my core for troops. When it gets larger, I enlarge any 5-men squads and then try and tuck a 5-man or two in.
ie:
x4 10-man
x2 5-man