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One other BIG deal is that the Warlock Conclave takes up an HQ slot and if you take the Warlock Conclave in the Warhost detatchment, you are forced to join the Warlocks.

 Colpicklejar wrote:
Here's another gem:

Eldritch Storm has two cast modes: WC 3 or WC 4.

WC 3 24''- str 3 ap 3 large blast, fleshbane, haywire, pinning

WC 4 24''- str 3 ap 3 Apocalyptic blast, fleshbane, haywire, pinning.

There's also a 15 pt relic that makes a spell a turn 1 less WC to cast. Also farseers can re-roll a psychic test each turn.

Re read that relic, it technically works on EVERY spell once.

 Galef wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:


Again, I'm not downright defending the Wraithknight, as it is cheap, but look at comparisons as far as other LOW units goes. Lets use the Obelisk, as an example. 300 points, AV14 6HP, 6+ IWND, has 4 S7 Heavy 5 Tesla guns, screws up Flyers/skimmers/jetbikes, and has a nice formation that has some tactical benefits to it. It's immune to anything S7 or lower, and is glanced on 6s by S8.

Yes, the Wraithknight is 295. That's before shoulder gun options, which why would you not take? So, easily close to 315 or so points. Can be hurt by Poison and Snipers (barely, mind you), can be hurt by heavy boltors, or anything S5+ for that matter. And anything that killed it before (Lascannons, Instant Death, Grav weapons, ext) will still kill it more or less the same, bar FNP. And it it's using the Heavy Wraithcannons, the variant that everyone is scared of, it has no Invuln. And if it takes the Invuln, no ranged Strength D to worry about. And even if it takes the Strength D, it has 2 shots, hitting on 3s, damaging something on a 2-5 only slightly moreso than it did, and on a 6, it kills something. If it's a vehicle or MC, ouch. If not, woo, one model is gone.

To reiterate, I'm not defending it, since it has easy spammability, but it's not the end all, be all. If you spam 3, that's almost 1000 points of your list, which die to more things than an Obelisk. And if you bring 1, you can almost ignore it until you've killed all his other squish units.

I agree. There is a difference between "undercosted" and "overpowered". The WK is clearly "undercosted", but it would only be "overpowered" if it have BOTH the ranged D and the invul, but it does not.

Imp knights could be considered overpowered if they were cheaper, but thankfully they are not. I have heard talk that some tournaments will be banning LOW, but not Imp Knights. I will not be playing in those tournies. Imp Knights and WKs should be in the same category: Ban/restrict both, or allow both.

Wraithknights are magnitudes better than Imperial Knights. Not just because of cost - Imp Knights are much easier to kill, by and far. Haywire, melta, and just plain high-strength guns can take one down quickly. Anything that's good against vehicles is automatically good against Imp Knights as well.

On the other hand, anything that's good against high toughness MCs is not necessarily good against Wraithknights. The way to counter high T MCs with lots of wounds is via Poison, Sniper, Fleshbane, or high strength shots. Becoming a GC means that Poison and Snipers are no longer solid counters. Fleshbane is few and far between in any codex, and most High S shots aren't that effective thanks to a 5++/FNP. Even Instant Death, which is the "hard hard counter" to MCs or other Multi-wound creatures, doesn't counter Wraithknights. You need a lot of ID to bring one low.

There's no comparing the two. Even if they were similarly costed, I would take the Wraithknight over an Imp Knight any day of the week.

Is the Mindshock Pod a new piece of equipment for the Hemlock? -2 to Fear, Pinning, and Morale tests in 12"

rollawaythestone wrote:
Is the Mindshock Pod a new piece of equipment for the Hemlock? -2 to Fear, Pinning, and Morale tests in 12"

It's not new but before it made those tests be rerolled.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

rollawaythestone wrote:
Fire Dragons may still have a place is run as an Aspect Host. Don't they gain 1+ BS? BS 5 Fire Dragons may have some uses over Wraithguard.

Fire Dragons are objectively better than Wraith guard if you are shooting anything that has T4, 1 Wound, or is a regular vehicle. Against those targets, Fire Dragons are the same offense at 2/3 the cost.

I dunno. Factor in the following.

I meant regular wraithcannoned Wraithguard, as illustrated by the 2/3 cost comment.

D-Scythe Wraithguard are double a Fire Dragon's cost.

That's nice.

D-Scythes still seem far, far better.

Also notice that heavy D canons aren't D scythe like people were claiming. So yea, barrage blasts at full D.

D-scythes are certainly better, but you might get a better return on your investment with Fire Dragons. They're both overkill against most vehicles and Fire Dragons are loads cheaper. So if you just want to fill that niche, they're a great choice.

D-scythe WG on the other hand, are much better all arounders. Still gonna fry any vehicles they get close too, great against massed infantry and very hard to charge due to wicked overwatching.

I prefer WG myself, but Fire Dragons are very good for their points, if you have a specific mission in mind.

 Red Corsair wrote:
Also notice that heavy D canons aren't D scythe like people were claiming. So yea, barrage blasts at full D.

These are the ones armed on the Artillery platform? The D-Cannon? Barrage, small bast at 24" tones it down a bit. It's still ridiculous Str D, but at least it won't annihilate you on turn 1.

Mymearan wrote:
They didn't have hit and run, it was an exarch power.

...which gave the entire unit Hit and Run... my question being whether or not some mode of acquiring Hit and Run is still available.

rollawaythestone wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
Also notice that heavy D canons aren't D scythe like people were claiming. So yea, barrage blasts at full D.

These are the ones armed on the Artillery platform? The D-Cannon? Barrage, small bast at 24" tones it down a bit. It's still ridiculous Str D, but at least it won't annihilate you on turn 1.

Well unless the warlock you attach to them rolls gate of infinity....

-Deleted double post-

 docdoom77 wrote:
D-scythes are certainly better, but you might get a better return on your investment with Fire Dragons. They're both overkill against most vehicles and Fire Dragons are loads cheaper. So if you just want to fill that niche, they're a great choice.

D-scythe WG on the other hand, are much better all arounders. Still gonna fry any vehicles they get close too, great against massed infantry and very hard to charge due to wicked overwatching.

I prefer WG myself, but Fire Dragons are very good for their points, if you have a specific mission in mind.

Want to really think about how crazy D-scythes are? Imagine them shooting an open topped transport...

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

rollawaythestone wrote:
Fire Dragons may still have a place is run as an Aspect Host. Don't they gain 1+ BS? BS 5 Fire Dragons may have some uses over Wraithguard.

Fire Dragons are objectively better than Wraith guard if you are shooting anything that has T4, 1 Wound, or is a regular vehicle. Against those targets, Fire Dragons are the same offense at 2/3 the cost.

I dunno. Factor in the following.

I meant regular wraithcannoned Wraithguard, as illustrated by the 2/3 cost comment.

D-Scythe Wraithguard are double a Fire Dragon's cost.

That's nice.

D-Scythes still seem far, far better.

Yes. I do not see ANYONE fielding the cannon over the scythe on Wguard. Even with the slightly shorter range (8" template vs 12" shot) and the -1D, a unit of D-scythes will still roast any vehicle faster than 5 cannons (or 10 meltas)

Lets do some rough maths, assuming all 2 unit are within 6":
6 Wguard with cannons vs
5 D-scythe Wguard vs
10 Fire Dragons.

the Cannon guard with hit 4x and do about 6-8 hullpoints
The fire dragons with hit 6-7x and do about the same, depending on AV.
The scytheguard will autohit 5x on a vehicle and even lowballing will do about 6 hullpoints

The way I see it, Fire Dragons are best if you want smaller units for an MSU list. But Scytheguard can wreck most vehicles and have the added bonus of Horde control and super over-watch

Purple Saturday wrote:

Mymearan wrote:
They didn't have hit and run, it was an exarch power.

...which gave the entire unit Hit and Run... my question being whether or not some mode of acquiring Hit and Run is still available.

Doesn't look like there is in the unit.

 Galef wrote:

Yes. I do not see ANYONE fielding the cannon over the scythe on Wguard. Even with the slightly shorter range (8" template vs 12" shot) and the -1D, a unit of D-scythes will still roast any vehicle faster than 5 cannons (or 10 meltas)

Lets do some rough maths, assuming all 2 unit are within 6":

How did you teleport them to the enemy? Fire Dragons can be put in a Falcon that can Deep Strike without scattering. Wraithguard can't.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ace Rimmer wrote:

rollawaythestone wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
Also notice that heavy D canons aren't D scythe like people were claiming. So yea, barrage blasts at full D.

These are the ones armed on the Artillery platform? The D-Cannon? Barrage, small bast at 24" tones it down a bit. It's still ridiculous Str D, but at least it won't annihilate you on turn 1.

Well unless the warlock you attach to them rolls gate of infinity....

Artillery doesn't have Relentless, which means a D-Cannon can't move and fire. Even if they could, good luck with that 1 in 6 chance. You don't get to assign Warlocks anymore.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Galef wrote:

Yes. I do not see ANYONE fielding the cannon over the scythe on Wguard. Even with the slightly shorter range (8" template vs 12" shot) and the -1D, a unit of D-scythes will still roast any vehicle faster than 5 cannons (or 10 meltas)

Lets do some rough maths, assuming all 2 unit are within 6":

How did you teleport them to the enemy? Fire Dragons can be put in a Falcon that can Deep Strike without scattering. Wraithguard can't.

DE raiders, cheaper and better anyway.

Given that the Cloudstriking squadron gives you 3 Falcons Deepstriking 4" apart, potential Howling Banshee delivery system?
Use the hulls as LOS blocking, Maybe have 1 unit of banshee's, 1 of Avengers and 1 of Fire Dragons. The Dragons roast a tank, the avengers soften something up, the following turn, the falcons break open and the banshee's finish them off?

 DarknessEternal wrote:


Artillery doesn't have Relentless, which means a D-Cannon can't move and fire. Even if they could, good luck with that 1 in 6 chance. You don't get to assign Warlocks anymore.

True, it was merely a hypothetical. Even so, if the enemy didn't immediately deal with them, the following turn would be painful for something. But yes, all on a 1/6 roll.

@purplesaturday, It seems that Baharoth is the only way to get hit & run now.

-Overall, it seems like D-Scythes are the only thing that seem remotely "broken" or "OP" to me. Allied WWP and dropping out of a wave serpent that doesn't scatter thanks to said WWP ensures good positioning and destruction of a target... unless that target is either off the board, in a transport or sufficiently "bubble wrapped" by chaff. You still have to deal with the randomness of coming in from reserves which can sometimes bite you in the rear-either coming in earlier than you want without a good target or coming in later than you want when your target is in combat or already did their damage.

-Wraithknight seems reasonably costed to me as around 300 seems about right for 6 wounds/HP of gargantuan creature with his firepower.

-The Windrider Bikes are not OP but pretty balanced and I definitely don't see them being taken in droves and overwhelming everything with S6 firepower. Seriously, as Hulk and others pointed out, the Tomb Blades are comparable and nobody is crying about those guys being OP and Tomb Blades are (1) more survivable and (2) can engage a wider array of targets while ignoring cover.

-D weapons all around are problematic but Distort weapons already obliterated things on a 6, just that they didn't ignore invul/cover. As I mentioned above, D-Scythes are the only D-Weapons in the codex that really scream OP.

I expect the ITC to either revert D weapons back to the old Distort rule or to have no "6" result on Eldar D weapons with the possibility of them doing 1 wound/HP rather than d3. With that fix in mind, I think that the Eldar codex will be proven to be pretty balanced and flavorful with more aspects and other generally unused units seeing the table top.

Requizen wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:


Again, I'm not downright defending the Wraithknight, as it is cheap, but look at comparisons as far as other LOW units goes. Lets use the Obelisk, as an example. 300 points, AV14 6HP, 6+ IWND, has 4 S7 Heavy 5 Tesla guns, screws up Flyers/skimmers/jetbikes, and has a nice formation that has some tactical benefits to it. It's immune to anything S7 or lower, and is glanced on 6s by S8.

Yes, the Wraithknight is 295. That's before shoulder gun options, which why would you not take? So, easily close to 315 or so points. Can be hurt by Poison and Snipers (barely, mind you), can be hurt by heavy boltors, or anything S5+ for that matter. And anything that killed it before (Lascannons, Instant Death, Grav weapons, ext) will still kill it more or less the same, bar FNP. And it it's using the Heavy Wraithcannons, the variant that everyone is scared of, it has no Invuln. And if it takes the Invuln, no ranged Strength D to worry about. And even if it takes the Strength D, it has 2 shots, hitting on 3s, damaging something on a 2-5 only slightly moreso than it did, and on a 6, it kills something. If it's a vehicle or MC, ouch. If not, woo, one model is gone.

To reiterate, I'm not defending it, since it has easy spammability, but it's not the end all, be all. If you spam 3, that's almost 1000 points of your list, which die to more things than an Obelisk. And if you bring 1, you can almost ignore it until you've killed all his other squish units.

I agree. There is a difference between "undercosted" and "overpowered". The WK is clearly "undercosted", but it would only be "overpowered" if it have BOTH the ranged D and the invul, but it does not.

Imp knights could be considered overpowered if they were cheaper, but thankfully they are not. I have heard talk that some tournaments will be banning LOW, but not Imp Knights. I will not be playing in those tournies. Imp Knights and WKs should be in the same category: Ban/restrict both, or allow both.

Wraithknights are magnitudes better than Imperial Knights. Not just because of cost - Imp Knights are much easier to kill, by and far. Haywire, melta, and just plain high-strength guns can take one down quickly. Anything that's good against vehicles is automatically good against Imp Knights as well.

On the other hand, anything that's good against high toughness MCs is not necessarily good against Wraithknights. The way to counter high T MCs with lots of wounds is via Poison, Sniper, Fleshbane, or high strength shots. Becoming a GC means that Poison and Snipers are no longer solid counters. Fleshbane is few and far between in any codex, and most High S shots aren't that effective thanks to a 5++/FNP. Even Instant Death, which is the "hard hard counter" to MCs or other Multi-wound creatures, doesn't counter Wraithknights. You need a lot of ID to bring one low.

There's no comparing the two. Even if they were similarly costed, I would take the Wraithknight over an Imp Knight any day of the week.

Not only the above but how can you even compare 2 str d shots with rerolls to hit in a wraith host that can fire at seperate targets then use that scatter laser on a third target to charge with 4 str 10 int 5 atks followed by stomps compared to 2 shot battle cannons that is the only unit you can charge with str d int 1 atks and think the two are balsnced? It's ridiculously better. Just to give you a fairly equal comparison. Take a look at the knight lancer vs the str d melee version same role same save except the lancer only gets int 5 on the charge, is much easier to kill and costs 120 points more. It's not even in remotelt the same price range.

 mortetvie wrote:


-The Windrider Bikes are not OP but pretty balanced and I definitely don't see them being taken in droves and overwhelming everything with S6 firepower.

You're going to be seriously disappointed.

270pts for 40 BS4 S6 shots is absurd. That's more midrange firepower than most IG gunlines are putting out at a fraction of the cost.

Seriously, as Hulk and others pointed out, the Tomb Blades are comparable and nobody is crying about those guys being OP and Tomb Blades are (1) more survivable and (2) can engage a wider array of targets while ignoring cover.

Um, a lot of people have pointed out they're pretty absurdly good. Did you miss all of the Necron threads in 40k General?

 DarknessEternal wrote:

Artillery doesn't have Relentless, which means a D-Cannon can't move and fire. Even if they could, good luck with that 1 in 6 chance. You don't get to assign Warlocks anymore.

The Vaul's Wrath support battery guns can simply take a Warlock as a unit option.

 mortetvie wrote:


-Wraithknight seems reasonably costed to me as around 300 seems about right for 6 wounds/HP of gargantuan creature with his firepower.

Your pretty much alone on that one bub.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 mortetvie wrote:


-The Windrider Bikes are not OP but pretty balanced and I definitely don't see them being taken in droves and overwhelming everything with S6 firepower.

You're going to be seriously disappointed.

270pts for 40 BS4 S6 shots is absurd. That's more midrange firepower than most IG gunlines are putting out at a fraction of the cost.

Seriously, as Hulk and others pointed out, the Tomb Blades are comparable and nobody is crying about those guys being OP and Tomb Blades are (1) more survivable and (2) can engage a wider array of targets while ignoring cover.

Um, a lot of people have pointed out they're pretty absurdly good. Did you miss all of the Necron threads in 40k General?

I know, I love how the defense of windriders is to point to another absurdly under priced unit. Tomb blades are filthy good and thankfully they aren't as fast and don't occupy the troops slot, meaning your only getting three units per detachment unlike windriders who get 6.

I have seen nothing but complaints in regard to tomb blades btw.

gungo wrote:

Requizen wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:


Again, I'm not downright defending the Wraithknight, as it is cheap, but look at comparisons as far as other LOW units goes. Lets use the Obelisk, as an example. 300 points, AV14 6HP, 6+ IWND, has 4 S7 Heavy 5 Tesla guns, screws up Flyers/skimmers/jetbikes, and has a nice formation that has some tactical benefits to it. It's immune to anything S7 or lower, and is glanced on 6s by S8.

Yes, the Wraithknight is 295. That's before shoulder gun options, which why would you not take? So, easily close to 315 or so points. Can be hurt by Poison and Snipers (barely, mind you), can be hurt by heavy boltors, or anything S5+ for that matter. And anything that killed it before (Lascannons, Instant Death, Grav weapons, ext) will still kill it more or less the same, bar FNP. And it it's using the Heavy Wraithcannons, the variant that everyone is scared of, it has no Invuln. And if it takes the Invuln, no ranged Strength D to worry about. And even if it takes the Strength D, it has 2 shots, hitting on 3s, damaging something on a 2-5 only slightly moreso than it did, and on a 6, it kills something. If it's a vehicle or MC, ouch. If not, woo, one model is gone.

To reiterate, I'm not defending it, since it has easy spammability, but it's not the end all, be all. If you spam 3, that's almost 1000 points of your list, which die to more things than an Obelisk. And if you bring 1, you can almost ignore it until you've killed all his other squish units.

I agree. There is a difference between "undercosted" and "overpowered". The WK is clearly "undercosted", but it would only be "overpowered" if it have BOTH the ranged D and the invul, but it does not.

Imp knights could be considered overpowered if they were cheaper, but thankfully they are not. I have heard talk that some tournaments will be banning LOW, but not Imp Knights. I will not be playing in those tournies. Imp Knights and WKs should be in the same category: Ban/restrict both, or allow both.

Wraithknights are magnitudes better than Imperial Knights. Not just because of cost - Imp Knights are much easier to kill, by and far. Haywire, melta, and just plain high-strength guns can take one down quickly. Anything that's good against vehicles is automatically good against Imp Knights as well.

On the other hand, anything that's good against high toughness MCs is not necessarily good against Wraithknights. The way to counter high T MCs with lots of wounds is via Poison, Sniper, Fleshbane, or high strength shots. Becoming a GC means that Poison and Snipers are no longer solid counters. Fleshbane is few and far between in any codex, and most High S shots aren't that effective thanks to a 5++/FNP. Even Instant Death, which is the "hard hard counter" to MCs or other Multi-wound creatures, doesn't counter Wraithknights. You need a lot of ID to bring one low.

There's no comparing the two. Even if they were similarly costed, I would take the Wraithknight over an Imp Knight any day of the week.

Not only the above but how can you even compare 2 str d shots with rerolls to hit in a wraith host that can fire at seperate targets then use that scatter laser on a third target to charge with 4 str 10 int 5 atks followed by stomps compared to 2 shot battle cannons that is the only unit you can charge with str d int 1 atks and think the two are balsnced? It's ridiculously better. Just to give you a fairly equal comparison. Take a look at the knight lancer vs the str d melee version same role same save except the lancer only gets int 5 on the charge, is much easier to kill and costs 120 points more. It's not even in remotelt the same price range.

Does a Wraithknight have a 4++ save against some of that shooting? And a Wraithknight in a Wraithost, well, that's a lot of points for that formation, and therefor you're most likely only bringing one Wraithknight. People can easily bring 2-3 IKs.

 mortetvie wrote:

-Wraithknight seems reasonably costed to me as around 300 seems about right for 6 wounds/HP of gargantuan creature with his firepower.

I'll admit. I giggled here.

You might want to read IA:4 and look at the Tyranid Hierodules. And then compare. And wonder why the hell they cost 200 to 250 points more than the Wraithknight.

gungo wrote:

Not only the above but how can you even compare 2 str d shots with rerolls to hit in a wraith host that can fire at seperate targets then use that scatter laser on a third target to charge with 4 str 10 int 5 atks followed by stomps compared to 2 shot battle cannons that is the only unit you can charge with str d int 1 atks

Imperial Knights have more than one shooting weapon too.

Double post somehow

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

You might want to read IA:4 and look at the Tyranid Hierodules. And then compare. And wonder why the hell they cost 200 to 250 points more than the Wraithknight.

A Scythed Hierodule has 8 attacks and a Hellstorm template weapon. A Barbed Hirodule has 12 Str 10 shots.

But more realistically, the answer is because Forge World errs on the side of caution on their stuff, usually making it more expensive than it should be, because they've had to deal with a decade and a half of internet whiners complaining about how everything they make is overpowered.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
In a cad they are superior. But Eldar are going to be better in the special detachment I think unless you are going strictly biker crazy. The bonuses for the formations are just to good.

That's where the balance (lolz, did I just say that? ) comes into play. Necrons could spam the gak out of Wraiths if they wanted to, but the formations is just too nice. And also more restricting.

Hate to break the news to you but d scythes do d3 wounds to wraiths and ignore fnp/reanimate by default. They still have thier 3++ though. Not to mention all the basic d weapons that insta death (str10) wraiths and ignore thier invulns on a 6. Honestly though the spyder that gives RP in this formstion Will die in no time from jet bike spam or the numerous other ways elder have to kill it. Seeing as this formstion is the most op formstion and unit in any non elder dex and is utterly crapped on by elder. You are trying really hard to prove elder aren't completely overpwoered in this current dex by comparing them. Take the consensus most broken non elder unit in its best formation (even if it has a bunch of tax units and no one spams it because of that) compare it to your broken dex and realize that multiple units in your book utterly decimates it and still fail to prove your point.... Yea good job

 krodarklorr wrote:

gungo wrote:

Requizen wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:


Again, I'm not downright defending the Wraithknight, as it is cheap, but look at comparisons as far as other LOW units goes. Lets use the Obelisk, as an example. 300 points, AV14 6HP, 6+ IWND, has 4 S7 Heavy 5 Tesla guns, screws up Flyers/skimmers/jetbikes, and has a nice formation that has some tactical benefits to it. It's immune to anything S7 or lower, and is glanced on 6s by S8.

Yes, the Wraithknight is 295. That's before shoulder gun options, which why would you not take? So, easily close to 315 or so points. Can be hurt by Poison and Snipers (barely, mind you), can be hurt by heavy boltors, or anything S5+ for that matter. And anything that killed it before (Lascannons, Instant Death, Grav weapons, ext) will still kill it more or less the same, bar FNP. And it it's using the Heavy Wraithcannons, the variant that everyone is scared of, it has no Invuln. And if it takes the Invuln, no ranged Strength D to worry about. And even if it takes the Strength D, it has 2 shots, hitting on 3s, damaging something on a 2-5 only slightly moreso than it did, and on a 6, it kills something. If it's a vehicle or MC, ouch. If not, woo, one model is gone.

To reiterate, I'm not defending it, since it has easy spammability, but it's not the end all, be all. If you spam 3, that's almost 1000 points of your list, which die to more things than an Obelisk. And if you bring 1, you can almost ignore it until you've killed all his other squish units.

I agree. There is a difference between "undercosted" and "overpowered". The WK is clearly "undercosted", but it would only be "overpowered" if it have BOTH the ranged D and the invul, but it does not.

Imp knights could be considered overpowered if they were cheaper, but thankfully they are not. I have heard talk that some tournaments will be banning LOW, but not Imp Knights. I will not be playing in those tournies. Imp Knights and WKs should be in the same category: Ban/restrict both, or allow both.

Wraithknights are magnitudes better than Imperial Knights. Not just because of cost - Imp Knights are much easier to kill, by and far. Haywire, melta, and just plain high-strength guns can take one down quickly. Anything that's good against vehicles is automatically good against Imp Knights as well.

On the other hand, anything that's good against high toughness MCs is not necessarily good against Wraithknights. The way to counter high T MCs with lots of wounds is via Poison, Sniper, Fleshbane, or high strength shots. Becoming a GC means that Poison and Snipers are no longer solid counters. Fleshbane is few and far between in any codex, and most High S shots aren't that effective thanks to a 5++/FNP. Even Instant Death, which is the "hard hard counter" to MCs or other Multi-wound creatures, doesn't counter Wraithknights. You need a lot of ID to bring one low.

There's no comparing the two. Even if they were similarly costed, I would take the Wraithknight over an Imp Knight any day of the week.

Not only the above but how can you even compare 2 str d shots with rerolls to hit in a wraith host that can fire at seperate targets then use that scatter laser on a third target to charge with 4 str 10 int 5 atks followed by stomps compared to 2 shot battle cannons that is the only unit you can charge with str d int 1 atks and think the two are balsnced? It's ridiculously better. Just to give you a fairly equal comparison. Take a look at the knight lancer vs the str d melee version same role same save except the lancer only gets int 5 on the charge, is much easier to kill and costs 120 points more. It's not even in remotelt the same price range.

Does a Wraithknight have a 4++ save against some of that shooting? And a Wraithknight in a Wraithost, well, that's a lot of points for that formation, and therefor you're most likely only bringing one Wraithknight. People can easily bring 2-3 IKs.

if your comparing he lancer to the str d melee wraith knight yes it does have an invul save and it works all arounds instead of directional to shooting. Since you forget that as well. If your competing the double range d to the battle cannon version nope but it makes up for it with fnp, greater survivability, better mobility (jump) and your not limited to taking the wraith host for wraithknights, however you were comparing formations of units. Good thing is elder don't need the wraith host to give reroll to hits. And 3 imperial Knight is at least 1200 points. Whereas 3 wraith knight is less then half of a tournament list at 1850 points. Still cheaper and better. Odd how you continue to cherry pick comparisons and yet the elder options still completely out perform then in ability and cost. Any other units you care to cherry pick and fail to show how bad elder are?

gungo wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
In a cad they are superior. But Eldar are going to be better in the special detachment I think unless you are going strictly biker crazy. The bonuses for the formations are just to good.

That's where the balance (lolz, did I just say that? ) comes into play. Necrons could spam the gak out of Wraiths if they wanted to, but the formations is just too nice. And also more restricting.

Hate to break the news to you but d scythes do d3 wounds to wraiths and ignore fnp/reanimate by default. They still have thier 3++ though. Not to mention all the basic d weapons that insta death (str10) wraiths and ignore thier invulns on a 6. Honestly though the spyder that gives RP in this formstion Will die in no time from jet bike spam or the numerous other ways elder have to kill it. Seeing as this formstion is the most op formstion and unit in any non elder dex and is utterly crapped on by elder. You are trying really hard to prove elder aren't completely overpwoered in this current dex by comparing them. Take the consensus most broken non elder unit in its best formation (even if it has a bunch of tax units and no one spams it because of that) compare it to your broken dex and realize that multiple units in your book utterly decimates it and still fail to prove your point.... Yea good job

All of you guys can continue to argue all you want. I agree the Eldar codex didn't need this stuff. But, I'm honestly planning on wiping the floor with any Eldar player that decides to bring this cheese. And to those who don't, the book looks rather balanced and still strong otherwise. Do I like Eldar? Hell no, I've hated them for the longest time. I'm just too invested into this game to rage quit, and therefor, if someone wants to tote around their high ego and cheese list, I'll build a cheese list and defeat it. Otherwise, I'll continue playing the game in the environment I enjoy.

So please, everyone keep arguing with me. Say I'm wrong, say the world is ending. Hell, I was right there with you with the release of these rumors. But it won't stop the people who really enjoy this game from chugging on. And take away the Wraithknight and jetbikes. What do Eldar have? Nothing that every army can't already deal with easily.