Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Boniface wrote:
I feel a lot of the issue with Tau is hangover from being top dog, after coming from the bottom.
Tau used to be pretty awful and subsequently Tau players were already playing 'well' to eek out a win.
When they jumped up the rankings two things happened, the tau players got a more capable toolset and loads of people jumped on the bandwagon. This saturated the game with tau armies touting 2-3 Riptides and/or other things which are considered powerful
To compound issues the Riptide was added (the first big model made for 6th). If Tau had come after Eldar I believe things would have been different.

I don't think its possible to make Tau fun because of their reputation, mostly nothing to do with the codex. They're still very powerful too as they're not dedicating any points to melee and have the firepower to overcome a lot of things.
Tau have all the advantages in 40k simply because they don't do melee. Melee is so non-sensical in every regards. You're trying to cross the battlefield to stab someone (bringing a knife to a gun fight). Because Tau actively avoid this they're in a stronger position.

Equally they can make a good army by throwing anything together.

Just my 2 pence.

Totally agree. People sufferd in the hands of Tau players after June 2013 (Eldar) and even more after September (SM). And it was basically a year with that going on until 7th kicked in.So there's a sour taste on their tongues that will take a while to remove (Necrons are already helping with that, hehe)

The Necrons, while frustrating, STILL can't vaporize my list from 60" away with large blasts that ignore cover.

Martel732 wrote:
The Necrons, while frustrating, STILL can't vaporize my list from 60" away with large blasts that ignore cover.

neither can Tau. Markerlights have a 36" range. if your opponent says he can target stuff 60" away, then it isn't the Tau Codex's fault that your opponent is cheating.

 carldooley wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The Necrons, while frustrating, STILL can't vaporize my list from 60" away with large blasts that ignore cover.

neither can Tau. Markerlights have a 36" range. if your opponent says he can target stuff 60" away, then it isn't the Tau Codex's fault that your opponent is cheating.

The Tau have fast forward marker light application. They have marker drones and Tetras and Pathfinders. All of which play well forward of the riptide.

Drones are BS2, and not hard to kill. Pathfinders are expensive guardsmen, and they can't fire while moving. The only sicking point is tetra, which pay for it.

All still get used except the drones, which means 60" ignoring cover is not only possible but probable.

But easy to get rid of. If you just ignore the riptide and focus on the squishy guys, you'll do better. It's what the riptide is best at, being a huge target. I agree it's OP (although that has more to do with the dirt cheap IA then the chassis it'self), but people over-value it. Just position yourself to be out of line of site when at all possible, and annihilate the pathfinders.

Out of los doesn't really work as it can jump-shoot-jump.

Umm, if it can move 6" and see you, JSJ doesn't matter at all.

You must play with a ton of LoS blocking terrain if avoiding its LoS is a valid tactic. Most tables only have enough to grant cover, not completely block los.

I might have a different view on this, because I play with mostly city boards. It seems everybody else in existence fights on flat plains with the occasional tree.

SGTPozy wrote:
Tau just have perfect internal balance (except for Vespid) whilst others do not, hence why it is hard to make a 'bad' Tau list, but they cannot make a broken list (which is the opposite for basically every other army).

Then what is all this that I hear about broadsides, hammerheads, and stealth suits?

Yeah, stealth suits don't really have a good place for them go, elite they fight with crisis, FA they fight with pathfinders, and troops don't really fit with them. They are also pretty overpriced.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
But easy to get rid of. If you just ignore the riptide and focus on the squishy guys, you'll do better. It's what the riptide is best at, being a huge target. I agree it's OP (although that has more to do with the dirt cheap IA then the chassis it'self), but people over-value it. Just position yourself to be out of line of site when at all possible, and annihilate the pathfinders.

It's hard to kill Tau when Tau kill you first, outside your range.

Yeah, I have a very hard time believing that you can't get withing range of pathfinders and kill them. Especially as a riptide is one large blast. Spread your guys out, and it can only take out two or three.

Again, the riptide is overpowered, because the IA is overpowered for the cost. Otherwise the tau are just strong.

They are also overpowered because MCs are overpowered in general. The Ritpides just happens to be a long range MC, which makes it several fold harder to kill.

Taurdar are now gone.

Dual riptides with a buffbander are gone.

New objective based games are here.

Increase in heavy AV13+ armour in games.

All these things helped to take tau down a peg.

Now they are decent but not overpowered. They can certainly be fun, and have a few options that keep the army maneuverable and away from the standard tau static gunline myth.

Martel732 wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
But easy to get rid of. If you just ignore the riptide and focus on the squishy guys, you'll do better. It's what the riptide is best at, being a huge target. I agree it's OP (although that has more to do with the dirt cheap IA then the chassis it'self), but people over-value it. Just position yourself to be out of line of site when at all possible, and annihilate the pathfinders.

It's hard to kill Tau when Tau kill you first, outside your range.

Yet again; deep strike using your drop pods!

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
Taurdar are now gone.

Dual riptides with a buffbander are gone.

New objective based games are here.

Increase in heavy AV13+ armour in games.

All these things helped to take tau down a peg.

Now they are decent but not overpowered. They can certainly be fun, and have a few options that keep the army maneuverable and away from the standard tau static gunline myth.

This. People who think Tau are OP must be playing a lot of DoW deployment kill point missions. When using objective based missions (maelstrom or otherwise) on varied deployment tables, Tau must remain mobile. Especially on Hammer and Anvil and Vanguard, with plenty of terrain, things like Broadsides lose a lot of their luster.

Anyway, I fully expect Riptides to be nerfed in some way in the new codex. Not that they really need to be. At best, Ion Accelerators will be made a 10-15p upgrade and Early Warning Override probably 20-25.

The base chassis of the Riptide can take too much abuse for its cost. It's durability needs a nerf or the base cost needs to be higher.

So can the Dreadknight as the only difference is the Riptide has one more wound...

I wound't mind if they just got rid of the riptide in favor for a buff to HRR (and maybe even the base railgun) and just correctly priced everything. I don't use them anyway. They are cool, but I prefr them coming from FW, who do stupid powerful in experimental rules, but generally get it right eventually.

SGTPozy wrote:
So can the Dreadknight as the only difference is the Riptide has one more wound...

Realistically, the Riptide's durability exceeds the Dreadknight's. A 'Tide can get FNP, easily boost to a 3++, and is generally out of range of 90%+ of the weapons that can reliably hurt it. A Dreadknight may have a 30" shunt move... but it has to stand around to be shot in the face after using said shunt move- right where it's in that perfect sweet spot of being in range of the majority of AP2/AP1 weapons.

If you forgo the shunt move and just move as a Jump MC you're getting 12" a turn- which is good, but it's nowhere near a "ohmahgerditsinmuhfacekillinmuhdoods" level of mobility. Riptides don't even need that level of mobility anyway- with the two specialty weapons that it carries being 36" or more of range, it can comfortably sit in a corner of the board and kill things very dead.

Consider a deployment on the long edges of the board- It's easily possible to get the 36" range HBC to potentially be in range of almost the entire enemy deployment zone (barring LoS-blocking terrain, admittedly). Even deploying on the short edge, it's easy to get an IA-Tide to be able to hit almost anything on the board with that 60" range.

Riptides have a spare wound, yes*. They also have access to FNP period, and easy access to high-end invulnerable saves, and very long ranged weapons that keep them away from the guns that can reliably hurt/kill them.

*I find it incredibly stupid that a Riptide has more wounds than a Dreadknight... or really any combat-oriented MC. Riptides should not have more wounds- or really a better armor save either- than dedicated close combat MC, who will actually need the durability since they will take damage when closing with the enemy.

I dislike the situation with Tau as an army because discussions always get stuck on the Riptide, but it really is the elephant in the room. HYMP are stupid good, but Broadsides can actually die.

I've only played a couple different Tau players, and none of them played more than one riptide. But while they were always a pain to kill primarily because of their ridiculous jump-jet move, they never seemed particularly devastating on offense.

The Tau are tough, but not unbeatable. My problem is that they're not terribly fun to play against. They're a shooty army, so naturally one thinks "I'll avoid their shooting by using cover and stealth" except they can easily ignore cover all the time. Then one thinks "I'll stay out of sight until it's the time to strike" except the Tau also have plenty of heavy hitting weapons that don't need line of sight and are twin-linked. Then you think "I'll isolate their units and take them down in close combat" except every unit within 24" lends a hand in overwatch. So an opponent isn't really rewarded for acting tactically. The way to beat them is list building around them, which is hard if you're not planning for only the Tau.

The Eldar are still the only really over-powered race in my opinion. I can fight and sometimes beat the Tau, I can not fight and beat Eldar.

 TheSilo wrote:
I've only played a couple different Tau players, and none of them played more than one riptide. But while they were always a pain to kill primarily because of their ridiculous jump-jet move, they never seemed particularly devastating on offense.

The Tau are tough, but not unbeatable. My problem is that they're not terribly fun to play against. They're a shooty army, so naturally one thinks "I'll avoid their shooting by using cover and stealth" except they can easily ignore cover all the time. Then one thinks "I'll stay out of sight until it's the time to strike" except the Tau also have plenty of heavy hitting weapons that don't need line of sight and are twin-linked. Then you think "I'll isolate their units and take them down in close combat" except every unit within 24" lends a hand in overwatch. So an opponent isn't really rewarded for acting tactically. The way to beat them is list building around them, which is hard if you're not planning for only the Tau.

The Eldar are still the only really over-powered race in my opinion. I can fight and sometimes beat the Tau, I can not fight and beat Eldar.

Shocking that they both have S6/7 spam in common. /sarcasm

Whiskey144 wrote:
Riptides have a spare wound, yes*. They also have access to FNP period, and easy access to high-end invulnerable saves, and very long ranged weapons that keep them away from the guns that can reliably hurt/kill them.

*I find it incredibly stupid that a Riptide has more wounds than a Dreadknight... or really any combat-oriented MC. Riptides should not have more wounds- or really a better armor save either- than dedicated close combat MC, who will actually need the durability since they will take damage when closing with the enemy.

FNP at 35 points, so it's not always a 'period'. I no longer run FNP on my Riptides in <2000 point lists because the points have not been worth it (in my experience). The 5 wounds is probably tied to the downsides of overcharging the nova reactor, which, without fail, have caused 1-2 wounds on my Riptide per game. You also must remember that the s8ap2 large template is tied to a 'Get's hot!' roll, and I average about one 'Get's hot!' roll a game per Riptide.

Most of the time my Nova Reactor rolls have gone to the 4d6" jump move, or to ripple fire the fusion blaster. The 3++ only comes up when I'm bracing for some Grav pain.

I cannot say how OP or 'not-fun' the Tau army is in casual play these days, as I generally play in tournaments and expectations are different - but Tau haven't been too hot in the 'big' tournament scene for 7th and I've yet to steamroll or table my opponents with my Triptide list - with the exception of drop pod armies. Intercepting Riptides are very dangerous. Otherwise, on average, 2 of my 3 riptides will be dead by the end of the game - due to my opponents target priority and my own purposeful positioning/sponging.

Yes, it's overpowered. And yes, with less than 3 Riptides, the Tau are still fun to play against.

andbreak wrote:
FNP at 35 points, so it's not always a 'period'. I no longer run FNP on my Riptides in <2000 point lists because the points have not been worth it (in my experience). The 5 wounds is probably tied to the downsides of overcharging the nova reactor, which, without fail, have caused 1-2 wounds on my Riptide per game. You also must remember that the s8ap2 large template is tied to a 'Get's hot!' roll, and I average about one 'Get's hot!' roll a game per Riptide.

Most of the time my Nova Reactor rolls have gone to the 4d6" jump move, or to ripple fire the fusion blaster. The 3++ only comes up when I'm bracing for some Grav pain.

I cannot say how OP or 'not-fun' the Tau army is in casual play these days, as I generally play in tournaments and expectations are different - but Tau haven't been too hot in the 'big' tournament scene for 7th and I've yet to steamroll or table my opponents with my Triptide list - with the exception of drop pod armies. Intercepting Riptides are very dangerous. Otherwise, on average, 2 of my 3 riptides will be dead by the end of the game - due to my opponents target priority and my own purposeful positioning/sponging.

It is, however, still the case that you can- if you so choose- guarantee FNP on a Riptide. It's not reliably possible to do the same for the Dreadknight.

I also do not accept your explanation for a Riptide having 5 Wounds- if anything, I could turn it around and say that Dreadknights, Carnifexes, and other close-combat/short-range shooting oriented MCs need an extra wound because they will be in the enemy's face very quickly, and in order to actually contribute firepower/capability they have to be within range of almost every single AP2/AP1 weapon in the entire game.

A Riptide can easily sit back and be out of range of everything but Lascannons, which are an expensive and these days fairly uncommon heavy weapon to put on the field.

Further, are you trying to say that it's not possible to just boost a Riptide to BS6 and give it Ignores Cover? Because that solves Gets Hot quite nicely. If you don't buy that particular interpretation of the BS rules, then I'm sure that there's some way that you could easily and cheaply twin-link that Ion Accelerator so that you can ignore Gets Hot effects.

Also, the comment about the 4D6" Nova'd Thrust Move? Yeah, that plays into the whole "Riptides are annoying and unfun because they are practically unkillable". IA Riptides have been one of the biggest reasons that power armored models are becoming more and more invalidated- said T4/3+ (or T3/3+) models have increasingly difficult times actually surviving- even in cover (not that it matters against Tau...). There used to be a time when Marines wanted to be in cover because it was an advantageous position and provided a nice insurance policy against AP3/AP2/AP1 weapons. These days the Marines are more likely to not be on the board- either they're in a metahl bawkse of some kind, or they're simply not taken in a list, because they're far more likely to die against the enormous amount of AP2/AP1 weapons- especially said weapons that sport 5" Blast templates- than do anything remotely useful.

I'd also like to point out that statlines like that of the Riptide do not help the issue- T6/2+ needs some kind of way to be countered, and unfortunately it seems that the best counters are also really good at killing masses of T4/2+ and T4/3+ infantry models.

Whiskey144 wrote:

andbreak wrote:
FNP at 35 points, so it's not always a 'period'. I no longer run FNP on my Riptides in <2000 point lists because the points have not been worth it (in my experience). The 5 wounds is probably tied to the downsides of overcharging the nova reactor, which, without fail, have caused 1-2 wounds on my Riptide per game. You also must remember that the s8ap2 large template is tied to a 'Get's hot!' roll, and I average about one 'Get's hot!' roll a game per Riptide.

Most of the time my Nova Reactor rolls have gone to the 4d6" jump move, or to ripple fire the fusion blaster. The 3++ only comes up when I'm bracing for some Grav pain.

I cannot say how OP or 'not-fun' the Tau army is in casual play these days, as I generally play in tournaments and expectations are different - but Tau haven't been too hot in the 'big' tournament scene for 7th and I've yet to steamroll or table my opponents with my Triptide list - with the exception of drop pod armies. Intercepting Riptides are very dangerous. Otherwise, on average, 2 of my 3 riptides will be dead by the end of the game - due to my opponents target priority and my own purposeful positioning/sponging.

It is, however, still the case that you can- if you so choose- guarantee FNP on a Riptide. It's not reliably possible to do the same for the Dreadknight.

I also do not accept your explanation for a Riptide having 5 Wounds- if anything, I could turn it around and say that Dreadknights, Carnifexes, and other close-combat/short-range shooting oriented MCs need an extra wound because they will be in the enemy's face very quickly, and in order to actually contribute firepower/capability they have to be within range of almost every single AP2/AP1 weapon in the entire game.

A Riptide can easily sit back and be out of range of everything but Lascannons, which are an expensive and these days fairly uncommon heavy weapon to put on the field.

Further, are you trying to say that it's not possible to just boost a Riptide to BS6 and give it Ignores Cover? Because that solves Gets Hot quite nicely. If you don't buy that particular interpretation of the BS rules, then I'm sure that there's some way that you could easily and cheaply twin-link that Ion Accelerator so that you can ignore Gets Hot effects.

Also, the comment about the 4D6" Nova'd Thrust Move? Yeah, that plays into the whole "Riptides are annoying and unfun because they are practically unkillable". IA Riptides have been one of the biggest reasons that power armored models are becoming more and more invalidated- said T4/3+ (or T3/3+) models have increasingly difficult times actually surviving- even in cover (not that it matters against Tau...). There used to be a time when Marines wanted to be in cover because it was an advantageous position and provided a nice insurance policy against AP3/AP2/AP1 weapons. These days the Marines are more likely to not be on the board- either they're in a metahl bawkse of some kind, or they're simply not taken in a list, because they're far more likely to die against the enormous amount of AP2/AP1 weapons- especially said weapons that sport 5" Blast templates- than do anything remotely useful.

I'd also like to point out that statlines like that of the Riptide do not help the issue- T6/2+ needs some kind of way to be countered, and unfortunately it seems that the best counters are also really good at killing masses of T4/2+ and T4/3+ infantry models.

Pretty much this. I don't think Riptide proponents have played many army swaps. The last Tau guy I switched with asked why I even owned BA. That basically sums it up.