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Martel732 wrote:
Drop pods again? Drop pods can not be used in a TAC environment because there a large number of lists where drop pods are pure suicide.

Calling bull on that man, I have seen many Drop Pod armies in both local tournaments and others abroad that have done pretty well, saying "its not TAC" is not an excuse especially outside the tournament setting.

 gmaleron wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Drop pods again? Drop pods can not be used in a TAC environment because there a large number of lists where drop pods are pure suicide.

Calling bull on that man, I have seen many Drop Pod armies in both local tournaments and others abroad that have done pretty well, saying "its not TAC" is not an excuse especially outside the tournament setting.

Okay. But I'd much rather face pods than Riptides. And I can't image what these pod lists are doing vs Orks, Nids, or Demons. Drop in and get their faces torn off?

Martel732 wrote:
Drop pods again? Drop pods can not be used in a TAC environment because there a large number of lists where drop pods are pure suicide.

Correction: I'm within range of them with lascannons. Do you know how many lascannons it takes to kill a Riptide? It's insane.

Two dreadknights shooting can't decimate my flanks in one turn. Then they die. But five rounds of Riptide shooting sure can wreck an entire list. I don't give GK players a choice. The shunt into kill zones or shunt too far away to hurt me. Either way, they are eating a crap ton of grav and plasma that the Riptide never has to worry about.

As a BA player, I can tell you first hand how much it SUCKS to have to come to your opponent in this game.

-Refuse to believe you are only EVER within 48 inches range of a Riptide during the whole game

-You are basing this off if they are playing against another Marine player, I have SEEN Dreadknights obliterate armies by themselves, just because in your experience you havent does not mean you are automatically right. In most cases against Xenos forces especially the Dreadknights do a very good job when they shunt forward SMARTLY and take care of things.

 The Shrike wrote:

Stormravens are terrible against Riptides. What are you talking about? Overcosted firepower is not a solution. Also, your army gets blasted apart while you wait for the stupid things to arrive from reserves.

Martel732 wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Drop pods again? Drop pods can not be used in a TAC environment because there a large number of lists where drop pods are pure suicide.

Calling bull on that man, I have seen many Drop Pod armies in both local tournaments and others abroad that have done pretty well, saying "its not TAC" is not an excuse especially outside the tournament setting.

Okay. But I'd much rather face pods than Riptides. And I can't image what these pod lists are doing vs Orks, Nids, or Demons. Drop in and get their faces torn off?

I've seen Calgar pod lists troll Orks, Nids and Daemons right off the table; ask the #1 ranked player on Torrent of Fire, Matt Defranza. He'll tell you all about the effectiveness of drop marines, including in GT settings.

 gmaleron wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Drop pods again? Drop pods can not be used in a TAC environment because there a large number of lists where drop pods are pure suicide.

Correction: I'm within range of them with lascannons. Do you know how many lascannons it takes to kill a Riptide? It's insane.

Two dreadknights shooting can't decimate my flanks in one turn. Then they die. But five rounds of Riptide shooting sure can wreck an entire list. I don't give GK players a choice. The shunt into kill zones or shunt too far away to hurt me. Either way, they are eating a crap ton of grav and plasma that the Riptide never has to worry about.

As a BA player, I can tell you first hand how much it SUCKS to have to come to your opponent in this game.

-Refuse to believe you are only EVER within 48 inches range of a Riptide during the whole game

-You are basing this off if they are playing against another Marine player, I have SEEN Dreadknights obliterate armies by themselves, just because in your experience you havent does not mean you are automatically right. In most cases against Xenos forces especially the Dreadknights do a very good job when they shunt forward SMARTLY and take care of things.

Xeno players need to do a better job of setting up kill zones then. The Dreadknight is so much easier to game against than the Riptide it's pathetic.

Martel732 wrote:
Okay. But I'd much rather face pods than Riptides. And I can't image what these pod lists are doing vs Orks, Nids, or Demons. Drop in and get their faces torn off?

Heard of Heavy Flamers? Also just because you are a Drop Pod army does not mean you have to play aggresively, I have seen the "Wall" tactic work really well especially against Tyranid MC spam. You form a wall of Drop Pods back from the enemy and use them as cover to punish the advancing forces. Drop Pods coming in the second and later waves take advantage of mistakes made by the advancing army or exploit openings made my forces on the tables fire.

Martel732 wrote:
Xeno players need to do a better job of setting up kill zones then. The Dreadknight is so much easier to game against than the Riptide it's pathetic.

And there you have it, TACTICS.

The magic tactic argument. Love it.

Your comment just made my point "xenos players should set up better killzones" IS a tactic. And just like they have ways to effectively handle a Dreadknight there are effective ways to handle a Riptide wether you choose to use them or not is up to you. It seems like every month you start a rant about the Riptide and if your going to ignore all the advice given to you then its not our fault.

 gmaleron wrote:
Your comment just made my point "xenos players should set up better killzones" IS a tactic. And just like they have ways to effectively handle a Dreadknight there are effective ways to handle a Riptide wether you choose to use them or not is up to you. It seems like every month you start a rant about the Riptide and if your going to ignore all the advice given to you then its not our fault.

So use drop pods in a desperate attempt to try to put wounds on the thing and then have the Tau list blow me apart on turn two?

Oh the drama, stop being a negative nancy Drop Pods are quite EFFECTIVE against Tau, if you were paying attention.

I never really thought Tau were OP as a whole, but the thread is about the Riptide. And it is certainly still OP. Basically, I see games against Tau as a race to kill their normal units before the invici-Tides kill everything.

Speaking of tactics, I don't really understand why people don't set up to minimize alpha strike damage against pod lists. The pods do start getting in each other's way.

Martel732 wrote:
I never really thought Tau were OP, but the thread is about the Riptide. And it is certainly still OP. Basically, I see games against Tau as a race to kill their normal units before the invici-Tides kill everything.

Speaking of tactics, I don't really understand why people don't set up to minimize alpha strike damage against pod lists. The pods do start getting in each other's way.

And im telling you you're wrong, the base Riptide is fine but the Ion Accelerator does need a points increase. And people do, its just more often then not that the Firepower coming out of said disembarking units break up your defense.

 gmaleron wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I never really thought Tau were OP, but the thread is about the Riptide. And it is certainly still OP. Basically, I see games against Tau as a race to kill their normal units before the invici-Tides kill everything.

Speaking of tactics, I don't really understand why people don't set up to minimize alpha strike damage against pod lists. The pods do start getting in each other's way.

And im telling you you're wrong, the base Riptide is fine but the Ion Accelerator does need a points increase. And people do, its just more often then not that the Firepower coming out of said disembarking units break up your defense.

I don't think I'm wrong. The base Riptide is WAY too durable for its cost.

The base Riptide has the same exact stats as a Dreadkinght except only having 1 more wound and it is 50pts. more expensive base. So taking that into account it means for 50pts. we get our Nova generator which hurts us 1/3 of the time (a statistic that is OFTEN overlooked by non Tau players, 1/3 chance to fail is not great) and an additional wound which is a fair points cost

 gmaleron wrote:
The base Riptide has the same exact stats as a Dreadkinght except only having 1 more wound and it is 50pts. more expensive base. So taking that into account it means for 50pts. we get our Nova generator which hurts us 1/3 of the time (a statistic that is OFTEN overlooked by non Tau players, 1/3 chance to fail is not great) and an additional wound which is a fair points cost

Whoa that is not true, RIPTIDE comes with a gun, jetpack movement, and a goddamn choice to nova.

Dreadknight comes with nothing except terminator armor and two fists, everything has to be bought.

 Quickjager wrote:
Whoa that is not true, RIPTIDE comes with a gun, jetpack movement, and a goddamn choice to nova.

Dreadknight comes with nothing except terminator armor and two fists, everything has to be bought.

... and the Aegis special rule, PE: Demons, a psyker level/warp charge, and +3 WS, +1BS, +1LD over the Riptide.

Martel732 wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I never really thought Tau were OP, but the thread is about the Riptide. And it is certainly still OP. Basically, I see games against Tau as a race to kill their normal units before the invici-Tides kill everything.

Speaking of tactics, I don't really understand why people don't set up to minimize alpha strike damage against pod lists. The pods do start getting in each other's way.

And im telling you you're wrong, the base Riptide is fine but the Ion Accelerator does need a points increase. And people do, its just more often then not that the Firepower coming out of said disembarking units break up your defense.

I don't think I'm wrong. The base Riptide is WAY too durable for its cost.

Only if you don't take the 1w it will on average inflict to itself every 3 turns with Nova Charge.

The Riptide is still pretty good. I dusted off my Tau today (at the request of someone at the store) and played against his Space-Wolves. The game was not even remotely even. I almost feel dirty. Time to put them back into their box again..

Bleh.

Not sure about how they fare in competitive 40k nowadays (against things like Knights and Super-heavies) but casually they are rock solid.

 gmaleron wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Stormravens are terrible against Riptides. What are you talking about? Overcosted firepower is not a solution. Also, your army gets blasted apart while you wait for the stupid things to arrive from reserves.

S8 AP2 Missiles and being armor 12 all around allow you to damage a Riptide pretty well and make it hard for it to take you out.

What? Have you even played against tau? A stormraven lasts 1 turn before being high yield missile podded to death, costs more than the riptide, and will get lucky to stick 3 wounds on a tide that is in the open, not nova shielding, and is lacking fnp.

I also saw the same old "loses a wound every 3rd turn" comment somewhere. It's silly tactics to nova charge every turn. Don't do it unless you really need it for something that nothing else in your army can handle. You will be amazed at how much longer your tides last. The nova charge is generally a newbie trap, and only worth risking in very specific situations.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 gmaleron wrote:
The base Riptide has the same exact stats as a Dreadkinght except only having 1 more wound and it is 50pts. more expensive base. So taking that into account it means for 50pts. we get our Nova generator which hurts us 1/3 of the time (a statistic that is OFTEN overlooked by non Tau players, 1/3 chance to fail is not great) and an additional wound which is a fair points cost

...oh here it was. Yeah don't nova charge every turn just because it's a big shiny red button. It IS a pure upside, because you don't HAVE to use it, but it's there if things go south and you need the tide to pull even more weight than usual in an emergency.

And the dreadknight isn't as bad because it has to come right up to you to work some magic, and that means that it must purchase an upgrade bringing it to just 20 under a tide or it's foot slogging. And then it needs guns, or it's just going to pop over and wave at the enemy while they shoot it to death. The cheapest one alone brings it right up to equal with a tide. (Sans the 5 point IA.)

The tide however gets to hide like a coward and still have significant output all game from 10 miles down the road.

So yeah, I agree with Martel and the other hundreds of people that have been saying the same thing since the tide showed up: it is too damn durable for its cost, AND the IA is undercosted.

niv-mizzet wrote:
I also saw the same old "loses a wound every 3rd turn" comment somewhere. It's silly tactics to nova charge every turn. Don't do it unless you really need it for something that nothing else in your army can handle. You will be amazed at how much longer your tides last. The nova charge is generally a newbie trap, and only worth risking in very specific situations.

It's only brought up when the omnipresent "4d6 jump/3++" is brought up. Apparently, it never turns off.

Another point to consider with the Dreadknight, is that most people forget you're paying for a level one psyker. This means you're getting an extra warp charge. I've yet to run into a Gray Knight army that did not have a Librarian in it. And truthfully, the only Gray Knight army I've seen in the competitive circuit is the DraigoStar. The synergy of 2-3 jump monstrous creatures that also add warp charges with that list is amazing.

 gmaleron wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Drop pods again? Drop pods can not be used in a TAC environment because there a large number of lists where drop pods are pure suicide.

Calling bull on that man, I have seen many Drop Pod armies in both local tournaments and others abroad that have done pretty well, saying "its not TAC" is not an excuse especially outside the tournament setting.

Matchups are important bro. With pods especially. If you just get matched against a natural counter, you can't decide to not have pods come in. You just come in and die. I did well at a recent ITC tourney with a half-pod army, but I was really lucky with both matchups and mission types. I ended up ranking over several lists that would have crushed me hard without ever playing them.

niv-mizzet wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Drop pods again? Drop pods can not be used in a TAC environment because there a large number of lists where drop pods are pure suicide.

Calling bull on that man, I have seen many Drop Pod armies in both local tournaments and others abroad that have done pretty well, saying "its not TAC" is not an excuse especially outside the tournament setting.

Matchups are important bro. With pods especially. If you just get matched against a natural counter, you can't decide to not have pods come in. You just come in and die. I did well at a recent ITC tourney with a half-pod army, but I was really lucky with both matchups and mission types. I ended up ranking over several lists that would have crushed me hard without ever playing them.

You can however decide all/some come in empty. Depending what ypu are up against, droping empty pods to.use as roadblocks/claim Objectives is a valid tactic.

Also, the fact that you get good offense withput Nova Charge is an IA flaw. A HBC Riptide hits like a wet rag without Nova Charge.

Martel732 wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Drop pods again? Drop pods can not be used in a TAC environment because there a large number of lists where drop pods are pure suicide.

Calling bull on that man, I have seen many Drop Pod armies in both local tournaments and others abroad that have done pretty well, saying "its not TAC" is not an excuse especially outside the tournament setting.

Okay. But I'd much rather face pods than Riptides. And I can't image what these pod lists are doing vs Orks, Nids, or Demons. Drop in and get their faces torn off?

Drop in and dakka the feth out of a flyrant before it takes to the air, because you got first turn? Or drop in at the correct angle to murder some of their venom / malanthropes (sp) which are critical to their army?

Drop in and dakka the feth out of the back of some ork Battlewagons / other vehicles so that a large chunk of their army can't close.. Or cripple a scary unit they want to bring to your largely unharmed, like Nobz. Or murderize their big-guns, which are extraordinarily important?

Demons.. Basically the same as nids. Drop in and dakka the feth out of something.

At the end of the day, even if there is literally not a single viable way to drop into their lines.. You can still use the drop pods to make a wall and bottle neck the feth out of those armies you mentioned. Buying yourself at least one more turn of shooting in 90% of cases. For just over 100 points, three drop-pods can stop a green tide dead in its tracks for a single turn if positioned correctly. That's pretty fething powerful.

Drop in and dakka the feth out of a flyrant before it takes to the air, because you got first turn?
Don't they always stand in circle blocking LoS to a venom and jink to get +2cover, to avoid incoming fire in case of stolen turn 1?

The problem I have with Riptides and Tau in general is that it's an army that makes me not want to field most of my army.

Anything that has not got an invulnerable save is screwed. If stuff survives it's not because I 'strategically placed it in cover' or 'kept it out of range', it's either because of bad dice rolls or because it's that one model in the unit with an invuln save.

They say 40K is all about list building and has 0 tactics, I don't think that's true but Tau are very close to making it true.

DaPino wrote:
The problem I have with Riptides and Tau in general is that it's an army that makes me not want to field most of my army.

Anything that has not got an invulnerable save is screwed. If stuff survives it's not because I 'strategically placed it in cover' or 'kept it out of range', it's either because of bad dice rolls or because it's that one model in the unit with an invuln save.

They say 40K is all about list building and has 0 tactics, I don't think that's true but Tau are very close to making it true.

I find that's the mark of a real design problem; do you still feel like you as the player are contributing to the success or failure of your army? The way Tau fight; line up, shoot a lot, ignore most of the rules which protect one from shooting is really bad design used so heavily. They should be the army where certain units can bend the rules, that's their kitsch, but when the opponent will see half their army blown off the table a turn with no saves allowed? Eldar do much the same, but also basically ignore most attempts to damage them.

Beyond balance, however, consider Daemons. They can do some insane broken bs, but from a design standpoint, when one fights them, you either have enough shooting to grind through their invulns, or they will close and mulch you. What you do in-game doesn't matter all that much, more did you bring enough firepower or volume of attacks to kill or not. It's a combination of high power codexes who are designed in such a way that reduce tactical significance of your choices which weaken the game enormously.

Wow, Martel is the biggest troll ever...

Also, why do people always forget that Space Marines (in particular Blood Angels) ignore the most rules which is why they're favoured by young children.

I'm sorry, but I am fething SICK of this thread.

Every godamn time it comes up the "riptide so OP" people use arguments that are either:

1-"Schrodinger's riptide", who is someone activating NOVA every turn, never failing and getting every damn buff on the list at once, while also equipping all the possible useful upgrades (despite being limited to 2 of the list) and for free.

2-Mathematically false, or simple assuming a chain of rolls that depend on each other happens without a single fail, while the enemy player fails every single thing he could fail.

3-Scenarios that are absurdly set up in favor of the tau considering terrain, enemy units and placement.

4-Assuming the opponent is doing multiple mistakes at once as the "plausible" scenario. sometimes mistakes at listbuilding level, sometimes at deployment level and sometimes at reaction level, but usually multiple of them, and mistakes that even a noob should not make.

5-A combination of the above.


And I'll demonstrate:

niv-mizzet wrote:

And it doesn't take a dumb opponent to make a tide's points back on t1. Have some broadsides glance out a rhino with robotech missile spam, squad has to emergency disembark within THREE inches, put two lights on the 10 man squad, boom, squad dies, sans maybe 1 or 2 guys. 140+ a heavy weapon, a special weapon, and a power weapon/fist on vet sarge. Obviously you should put the weapons and sarge in the back, but they're not going to make it anywhere or be of any use with no more bullet sponges. A few fire warriors or crisis suits can finish them as an after-thought.

Every single note of what is silly in the scenario is in ()

So, you "not dumb" marine player has placed a 10-man unit of marines in a rhino with both a special and a heavy (subpar unit) placed his rhino outside cover, let alone LOS blocking (deployment) in range of the missile suits AND the markerlights (deployment again), and did NOT combat squad them (will be relevant later, but who does not combat squad with heavy and special?)

Then the at least two broadsides, as one will not kill a rhino, opened fire (free broadsides apparently) to force the emergency disembark, the marines either disembarked all at one direction (not squadded, if they were the two would SPLIT UP), not used the rhino to block LOS to at least some guys (reaction mistake to save some dudes), the markerlights hit (free pathfinders too apparently) netting lets say 3 marks from 6 pathfinders, to keep it chap yet believable, so riptide gets +1BS and ignore cover, he then proceed to shoot (1/6 to get hot ignored) his large blast, do not scatter (about 33% to scatter completely off when a unit is that crowded), and not a single "1" is rolled on to-wound (silly rolls)


So that "riptide easily kills his point T1" scenario assumed the riptide has no upgrades that make him cost more (and does not come into play in this scenario), shooting at an already bad unit, having 200 points worth of free support units, the marine player making 4 different mistakes, and that there was not a fail on any of the following five dice events: broadsides kill rhino, pathfinders mark, gets hot, scatter, wound.

Oh, but he DID say some will survive, the heavy, special and sarge naturally are the likely, but they are "not going to survive to get anywhere". I assume the unit that kills the remaining (and most important) squad members is also free?
A bunch of fire warriors or crisis suits will cost about 100 more in order to take them out before they do any damage themselves, as the scenario claims.

Yea, I'd say that taking 5 dice events that range from 1/6 to 1/3 chance to fail EACH in order for a combination of dedicated shooters to kill less than half their cost of SUBPAR units that made multiple mistakes not being really overpowering.


I'd say the fact tau do not take any top spots in turnies would make it obvoius that they are NOT op, but apparently people regard the top turny players as idiots who do not know their stuff.





Moving on, as someone here mentioned, NOVAing every turn is a mistake, and without it you ARE durable.
Not wrong, just ignoring the bigger picture-without NOVAing every turn you have both your defense and offensive powers down. NOVA is required to turn on the very things you complain about, and a riptide that does not NOVA, is not a threat.

The ONLY reason NOVA is not mandatory for riptide, is the fact the Ion Accelerator has the non-NOVA blast profile. that tiny "fix" or removing that part of its profile will turn the riptide into a docile machine, that either NOVA to be a tank, NOVA to be a cannon, or do neither and does not much damage, while not being too hard to kill, as I've proven in about 15 different threats about the subject so far.

The HBC for example, the "bare bones" version of the tide, never was a turny top-dog, even in the days of taudar. because it DOES need the NOVA, and needing the NOVA makes it a problem not only because it wounds you, but because it can fizzle unexpectedly and ruin your plans. its introducing a random element into your army in an army who is all about negating as many random elements as possible, and in return you get flexibility.
Have you SEEN the LVO top 8?
The "bad" CSM was up there, "OP tau" was not.



And anyone who calls it as a "well, I cant really respond to it" problem deserves a slapping, especially if he is a marine player-as their drop pod lists for YEARS have all been about ruining your opponents army without ever giving him a chance to respond.
Every single alpha-strike list ever introduced is about that. and tau were never top of the alpha-strike lists.


I won't even get started on how pathetic half the tables people play on are, and how absurdly in favor of gunlines they are, but when you use less than half the recommended terrain as per rulebook, do not wonder why things get absurd with gunlines!

But the claims that "assault is dead and therefor tau are too good as a shooting army" are the top of silliness, as even my tau will, on nearly every game, INITIATE and assault. and if my tau can pull that off, I'm sure that every unit that is actually DESIGENED to do so will pull it off by any competent player.
Lets go back to LVO, because on the top 8 we had a white scars assault bikers list. again noting-zero tau present.