Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Mizzett of course its my opinion what are you on about? Have you read any of this thread or any of the 100+ that have come before it??? It's a pretty common opinion...

Chill dude. No need to take it so personal.

Greggy wrote:
Dude. Templar. That's exactly what we have been saying. Increase the IA. Its all this other crap that is ridiculous. Do you even read these comments or just post? my god.

Sorry, got some posts mixed up. I usually go by avatars and several people don't have any.

No worries. But you should know who's saying what before commenting on it (Y)

When the conversation gets going fast its tough to sort out who said what exactly earlier. Especially when people are just trading barbs and not actually holding a proper conversation.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
Just like every other time this is come up it has dissolved into Tau hate and unfortunately it's being spearheaded by Imperial players who feel that the game should cater to their needs. Not calling out every single Imperial player with that, but it's definitely a few who feel that the Riptide should be nerfed to the point where it is absolutely useless. But it's the end of the world if we even mention that the Dreadknight should be raised in points cost or any other precious Imperial unit. This thread has become a complete joke.

Riptides wouldn't be useless if they had to pay 20-30 points for the IA. They'd be fairly costed, just like the Dreadknight is(within the context of its codex)

This is what most Tau players have been asking for ages: price the IA fairly.

It's not however what many IoM players seem to be asking, IMO at least.
If IA Riptides were costed fairly, I don't think that would make most Tau players field less of them, and frankly I'm not sure the average guy that comes in this thread to complain will care that they get destroyed by 3 properly costed IA RiptRiptides instead of 3 undercosted ones. What I feel these guys want is for Riptides to be nerfed and/or overcosted to the point Tau players are actually 'encouraged' to field less.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Smash isn't very useful for the Riptide anyway, no need to remove an ability it will almost never use. And if it is its almost certainly dead already, smash or not. And no matter what way you slice it, its still a very large thing more than capable of stomping stuff to death, but at WS2 its not very good at it.

Actually smash is quite effective against melee walkers like dreadnoughts. There's no way for even a death company dread on the charge with rage and blood talons to one round the tide, so it WILL get at least 1 4+ to hit with a reroll on an easy roll to penetrate. It will at worst take out 1/3 of a melee focused death machine's health, or better, nix a weapon or chop it's legs off, or best, blow it right up, which I have seen happen a few times now. My own poor Cassor the damned has been punched out by my buddy's tide twice now. The first time he forgot about the black painted dreadnought behind a ruin. The second he just wanted to give poor Cassor a rematch for fun.

A shooting focused VERY competitively costed unit has no business being able to stand up to a death co. Dreadnought in melee on the charge.

^this

The changes you guys want will make the riptide totally useless. Tau players have been saying the IA is undercosted since the codex came out and the complaining began. We want the IA to be priced fairly. It's the increase of the base riptide which is wrong and misguided. It barely sees use as it is (because the other options are so cheap and make it so much better). Make the riptide a better multi-platform unit where it is viable to use a hbc or and IA but don't kill the thing out of a personal hatred.

If your charging a Riptide with a dread your doing something wrong. The idea is to tie it up with a cheap unit of bodies...

Greggy wrote:
Mizzett of course its my opinion what are you on about? Have you read any of this thread or any of the 100+ that have come before it??? It's a pretty common opinion...

You specifically said "everyone concurs" and "yes we all agree" on a couple specific points. I don't agree with those points. I guess I'm not valid enough to be included in "everyone" then?

I feel like I'm going to get lynched in here just because I think a 185 point model that has a lot of things going for it should be able to actually die a good bit easier than say...a primarch from 30k.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Greggy wrote:


If your charging a Riptide with a dread your doing something wrong. The idea is to tie it up with a cheap unit of bodies...

My army doesn't have a cheap unit of bodies. They're all expensive guys who died like gretchin to the IA shot on turn 1.

I said "everyone concurs" and I said "yes we all agree" on one point about how the IA should have a point increase because it was too strong as it is? Are you disagreeing with this? Cause I think you might be the only one.

In your own comment you both agree and disagree with me on the same point.

Come the feth on mate

niv-mizzet wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Smash isn't very useful for the Riptide anyway, no need to remove an ability it will almost never use. And if it is its almost certainly dead already, smash or not. And no matter what way you slice it, its still a very large thing more than capable of stomping stuff to death, but at WS2 its not very good at it.

Actually smash is quite effective against melee walkers like dreadnoughts. There's no way for even a death company dread on the charge with rage and blood talons to one round the tide, so it WILL get at least 1 4+ to hit with a reroll on an easy roll to penetrate. It will at worst take out 1/3 of a melee focused death machine's health, or better, nix a weapon or chop it's legs off, or best, blow it right up, which I have seen happen a few times now. My own poor Cassor the damned has been punched out by my buddy's tide twice now. The first time he forgot about the black painted dreadnought behind a ruin. The second he just wanted to give poor Cassor a rematch for fun.

A shooting focused VERY competitively costed unit has no business being able to stand up to a death co. Dreadnought in melee on the charge.

That says more about how walkers suck terribly than that the Riptide is effective in melee. Dreadnoughts have been mediocre melee units for many editions at this point.

And of course a model with an AP3 melee weapon isn't going to do squat against 2+ armor save model with multiple wounds(and FnP)

Greggy wrote:


Everyone concurs...

Did too.

Edit: ah, nice ninja edit you did. Shoulda quoted your old post before you fixed it.

text removed.

Reds8n

 Grey Templar wrote:

niv-mizzet wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Smash isn't very useful for the Riptide anyway, no need to remove an ability it will almost never use. And if it is its almost certainly dead already, smash or not. And no matter what way you slice it, its still a very large thing more than capable of stomping stuff to death, but at WS2 its not very good at it.

Actually smash is quite effective against melee walkers like dreadnoughts. There's no way for even a death company dread on the charge with rage and blood talons to one round the tide, so it WILL get at least 1 4+ to hit with a reroll on an easy roll to penetrate. It will at worst take out 1/3 of a melee focused death machine's health, or better, nix a weapon or chop it's legs off, or best, blow it right up, which I have seen happen a few times now. My own poor Cassor the damned has been punched out by my buddy's tide twice now. The first time he forgot about the black painted dreadnought behind a ruin. The second he just wanted to give poor Cassor a rematch for fun.

A shooting focused VERY competitively costed unit has no business being able to stand up to a death co. Dreadnought in melee on the charge.

That says more about how walkers suck terribly than that the Riptide is effective in melee. Dreadnoughts have been mediocre melee units for many editions at this point.

And of course a model with an AP3 melee weapon isn't going to do squat against 2+ armor save model with multiple wounds(and FnP)

Blood talons aren't ap3. They're standard dccw's now with s10 ap2. All they do is give rerolls to wound. I would never charge the thing if I was fishing for 1's on his saves in addition to all the other disadvantages.

And yes, part of the situation is that walkers suck ATM. But melee dreads are meant for taking on single heavy targets or small numbers of elites that hopefully don't have anti vehicle melee weapons. In a perfect world, the DC dread would run over the tide like a steamroller.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Greggy wrote:
DUDE READ MY POST HOLY gak

I am done. These forumns are just full of idiots.

You, Mizzet and Martel are just...... omg

It's amazing how many people I've had to tell to calm down in this thread. It's toy soldiers. Not the end of the world just because someone doesn't agree with you.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Mulletdude wrote:
This thread again? Tau aren't top dogs anymore because IK's exist. That one model that anyone can take (and most can cast invis on) invalidates the Tau codex.

Last I checked, Knights are very vulnerable to suicide melta. Something Tau do very well.

Tau suicide melta comes in turn 2 at the earliest, and needs markerlight support just to get hit with a 4++ from the ion shield. Not something they 'do best'.

While the IA certainly feels a bit cheap for what it gives you, one sort of should be careful to examine a unit in a vacuum. The riptide is a good unit. It is also one of the few good things Tau have. I am all for opening up so there are new ways to build their lists, but right now there are quite a few awful, overpriced and awful and overpriced units in the Tau codex. Trashing the Riptide and marker lights with no other changes would make the codex nigh unplayable as it already is struggling to some degree. Especielly in a maelstrom setting since the stronger Tau builds rely on gunlining. Fire warriors are not super cheap if one is to bring every squad a Devilfish of their own.

There are codexes worse off than Tau, but they really are not the powerhouse they used to be. I think that while a bit unwarranted, most of the hate against Tau stems from how they play. When Tau works, they basically shoot their opponent off the table from superior range. When they do not, they simply get outmanouvered and crushed due to their fragile nature. Ideally, perhaps the whole codex needs to be reimagined to some degree.

 Mulletdude wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Mulletdude wrote:
This thread again? Tau aren't top dogs anymore because IK's exist. That one model that anyone can take (and most can cast invis on) invalidates the Tau codex.

Last I checked, Knights are very vulnerable to suicide melta. Something Tau do very well.

Tau suicide melta comes in turn 2 at the earliest, and needs markerlight support just to get hit with a 4++ from the ion shield. Not something they 'do best'.

Turn 2 suicide melta is fine against a IK, they will only get the charge off T2, if you're pushing forward.

 gmaleron wrote:

Backfire wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
The only true thing that needs to be changed about the Riptide is the cost of the ion accelerator, raise it to about 15 to 20 points and call it good.

That, and drop it to +3 Sv and 4 Wounds or preferably, make it a Walker.

As it is, Riptide simply breaks how the fiction is modelled on-game.

To much of a nerf, WAY to much of a nerf. It is perfectly fine with the Wounds and Save it has. If it got hit that hard I would expect it to go down in points, like Dreadknight base level.

No it's not, and I wouldn't have a problem with a points cost drop if its stats made sense in the game.

Compare Riptide with Ionhead. Why is Riptide, which is a battlesuit, much more durable AND mobile AND has better firepower than Ionhead which is a goddamn TANK? That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. It is exact same thing if Dreadnaught was chanced to AV14 and Transport Capacity 12 and given better weapons than a Land Raider.

Backfire wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:

Backfire wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
The only true thing that needs to be changed about the Riptide is the cost of the ion accelerator, raise it to about 15 to 20 points and call it good.

That, and drop it to +3 Sv and 4 Wounds or preferably, make it a Walker.

As it is, Riptide simply breaks how the fiction is modelled on-game.

To much of a nerf, WAY to much of a nerf. It is perfectly fine with the Wounds and Save it has. If it got hit that hard I would expect it to go down in points, like Dreadknight base level.

No it's not, and I wouldn't have a problem with a points cost drop if its stats made sense in the game.

Compare Riptide with Ionhead. Why is Riptide, which is a battlesuit, much more durable AND mobile AND has better firepower than Ionhead which is a goddamn TANK? That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. It is exact same thing if Dreadnaught was chanced to AV14 and Transport Capacity 12 and given better weapons than a Land Raider.

Because the hammerhead is an"old" weapon platform (in the tau sense of age) and of their lesser techs, and the riptide is the peak of their technology?
Its the same thing as comparing the dreadknight to the predator. the dreadknight is flat out BETTER.
And 40k has this whole "humanoid shape is better war machine" mere going in it, in case you haven't noticed knights, titans and stuff.

As for the nerf-it will make it unplayable at that point cost.
And if you drop the defense, and than drop the cost, what did you get there?
You just shifted the balance from high-durability low-firepower to high-firepower low-durability. tau does not need 2 elite battlesuit glass cannon type units with our low selections as it is.

Backfire wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:

Backfire wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
The only true thing that needs to be changed about the Riptide is the cost of the ion accelerator, raise it to about 15 to 20 points and call it good.

That, and drop it to +3 Sv and 4 Wounds or preferably, make it a Walker.

As it is, Riptide simply breaks how the fiction is modelled on-game.

To much of a nerf, WAY to much of a nerf. It is perfectly fine with the Wounds and Save it has. If it got hit that hard I would expect it to go down in points, like Dreadknight base level.

No it's not, and I wouldn't have a problem with a points cost drop if its stats made sense in the game.

Compare Riptide with Ionhead. Why is Riptide, which is a battlesuit, much more durable AND mobile AND has better firepower than Ionhead which is a goddamn TANK? That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. It is exact same thing if Dreadnaught was chanced to AV14 and Transport Capacity 12 and given better weapons than a Land Raider.

Yes it is. See? Everyone can do that.

Crunch-wise, Riptide is better because as it stands right now MC is simply a better type than Vehicle (doubly so since MCs often get Inv saves)

Fluff-wise, it's better because it's the cutting edge of Tau tech, coupled with an experimental reactor with a built-in chance of fryimg its pilot alive..

Ratflinger wrote:
Ideally, perhaps the whole codex needs to be reimagined to some degree.

It really does, yeah. As much as I love Tau, they've always been very frustrating to either play with or against, and the new codex has only made it worse in both cases. Playing with Tau you're kinda locked into playing a static gunline or spamming riptides if you want to win, and playing against them is no more fun now than it was before.

 Sidstyler wrote:

Ratflinger wrote:
Ideally, perhaps the whole codex needs to be reimagined to some degree.

It really does, yeah. As much as I love Tau, they've always been very frustrating to either play with or against, and the new codex has only made it worse in both cases. Playing with Tau you're kinda locked into playing a static gunline or spamming riptides if you want to win, and playing against them is no more fun now than it was before.

100% false.

Niether me, nor any tau player I know do either of these things.

Most tau players prefer mobile playstyle, either suit heavy via enclaves, or fished warriors.

Its not winning any turnies, but triptide won't either, so its not an issue.

Gunlines are the choice of the tau bandwagoners that jumped on during the "golden age of taudar" and didnt quite advance from that time (because they did not invest in their tau once it stopped being uber), and triptide is the choice of tryhards who did not get the memo that the reason it worked was the ovesastar, and the fact people were not geared to deal with superunits at the time. but now that even bigger and nastier superunits are running around in mass, triptide just gets nuked by all the heavy guns people take these days.

Smaller targets are the way to go for most tau players. make you waste your precious gravturion stars, imperial knights and brass scorpions by the fact any target they charge/shoot at is too cheap and meaningless for the kills to matter.

Riptides are beyond excellent, being amazingly tough, very shooty and has way too much synergy with markerlights as well. It also has a lot of utility and can adapt to any situation. Incoming grav bikers? Either pop 3++ or nova charge IA and nuke them to tiny bits with your cover-ignoring high-BS AP2 pieplate.

Deleting foot marines who pay very dearly for their T4 3+ without even granting them the mercy of cover is evil.

T6 W5 2+/5++/5+++ on a JSJ platform is also evil.

The Riptide is not the only thing in 40K that is way too strong. Far from it. But it still deserves the nerfhammer, and deserves it hard.

To the person suggesting that the Riptide becomes an AV 12 walker... You serious?

Did you not see my explanation on how the Riptide's stats make sense (or should really be buffed, like 4++ and S7).

This thread needs to be closed as IoM players are being too idiotic.

I think that the Dreadknight needs to be S and T2 with 1W and cost 1000 points because I don't like the unit; that's pretty much what this thread is.

Honestly, the Riptide should be a walker.

As should the Dreadknight. And the Wraithknight (or it should just be nerfed).

Many things are OP in 40k, but that does not excuse the Riptide at all.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Riptides are beyond excellent, being amazingly tough, very shooty and has way too much synergy with markerlights as well. It also has a lot of utility and can adapt to any situation. Incoming grav bikers? Either pop 3++ or nova charge IA and nuke them to tiny bits with your cover-ignoring high-BS AP2 pieplate.

Deleting foot marines who pay very dearly for their T4 3+ without even granting them the mercy of cover is evil.

T6 W5 2+/5++/5+++ on a JSJ platform is also evil.

The Riptide is not the only thing in 40K that is way too strong. Far from it. But it still deserves the nerfhammer, and deserves it hard.

if you would go back a couple pages we have mentioned multiple tactics that are pretty good counters against this, sorry if the Riptide base point cost deserves to go up based on a logic you guys have presented the Dreadknight better as well. Marker Lights are something that make the Tau unique and if you guys are having issues killing toughness 3 or toughness 4 models with a 4+ save at best then there's something wrong with your list, quit blaming the Tau players for your lack of tactics and again the Nova Charge is not it automatic thing, you guys need to stop treating it like it is.

If marker lights are so evil than I expect Grey Knights for example to lose as much work charges as they do or for Imperial Knights to lose that ridiculous Adamantium Lance formation again based on the logic Imperial players have been bringing. Every book has something that other armies hate to go against and Marker Lights even the worst.

The Riptide is no more evil than the Dreadknight or the Wraithknight and is perfectly costed when it comes to its base point value, breaking it down:

T6: same toughness as a Dreadknight and other MC's why should it be the only one that goes down a toughness?

5 Wounds: It has one more wound than a Dreadknight, it's also 50 points more expensive then a base cost 1 which when taking into accountthat extra wound, Nova generator and JSJ.

2+ & 5++: There is no double invulnerable save, we can improve our save but at a risk of hurting ourselves with no saves of any kind of allowed unless we take a very expensive FNP upgrade. 1/3 of a chance to failis not a great statistic, up one that is always overlooked.

JSJ: Wow so you're telling me a random 2d6 movement on such a giant model is that big of an issue? Not buying that for a second that's like me complaining about the Dreadknights 30 inch shunt move it can do.

Actually walker would make sense, specifically super-heavy walker LOW. Essentially a tau knight.

gmaleron wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Riptides are beyond excellent, being amazingly tough, very shooty and has way too much synergy with markerlights as well. It also has a lot of utility and can adapt to any situation. Incoming grav bikers? Either pop 3++ or nova charge IA and nuke them to tiny bits with your cover-ignoring high-BS AP2 pieplate.

Deleting foot marines who pay very dearly for their T4 3+ without even granting them the mercy of cover is evil.

T6 W5 2+/5++/5+++ on a JSJ platform is also evil.

The Riptide is not the only thing in 40K that is way too strong. Far from it. But it still deserves the nerfhammer, and deserves it hard.

if you would go back a couple pages we have mentioned multiple tactics that are pretty good counters against this, sorry if the Riptide base point cost deserves to go up based on a logic you guys have presented the Dreadknight better as well. Marker Lights are something that make the Tau unique and if you guys are having issues killing toughness 3 or toughness 4 models with a 4+ save at best then there's something wrong with your list, quit blaming the Tau players for your lack of tactics and again the Nova Charge is not it automatic thing, you guys need to stop treating it like it is.

If marker lights are so evil than I expect Grey Knights for example to lose as much work charges as they do or for Imperial Knights to lose that ridiculous Adamantium Lance formation again based on the logic Imperial players have been bringing. Every book has something that other armies hate to go against and Marker Lights even the worst.

The Riptide is no more evil than the Dreadknight or the Wraithknight and is perfectly costed when it comes to its base point value, breaking it down:

T6: same toughness as a Dreadknight and other MC's why should it be the only one that goes down a toughness?

5 Wounds: It has one more wound than a Dreadknight, it's also 50 points more expensive then a base cost 1 which when taking into accountthat extra wound, Nova generator and JSJ.

2+ & 5++: There is no double invulnerable save, we can improve our save but at a risk of hurting ourselves with no saves of any kind of allowed unless we take a very expensive FNP upgrade. 1/3 of a chance to failis not a great statistic, up one that is always overlooked.

JSJ: Wow so you're telling me a random 2d6 movement on such a giant model is that big of an issue? Not buying that for a second that's like me complaining about the Dreadknights 30 inch shunt move it can do.

I never compared it to the Dreadknight or the Wraithknight (which are OP too fwiw). They need nerfs too, arguably, although the thread is not about them so I won't adress them. Adlance being too strong does not prevent the Riptide being too strong.

While the really OP unit points at the super-OP unit as an excuse, all the other units who are neither don't really care - they'd just want both nerfed.

No need to be defensive.

Co'tor Shas wrote:Actually walker would make sense, specifically super-heavy walker LOW. Essentially a tau knight.

I thought the idea of Tau was that they don't want big stompy walkers and that the Riptide already was straining their theme?

 Ashiraya wrote:
Riptides are beyond excellent, being amazingly tough, very shooty and has way too much synergy with markerlights as well. It also has a lot of utility and can adapt to any situation. Incoming grav bikers? Either pop 3++ or nova charge IA and nuke them to tiny bits with your cover-ignoring high-BS AP2 pieplate.

Deleting foot marines who pay very dearly for their T4 3+ without even granting them the mercy of cover is evil.

T6 W5 2+/5++/5+++ on a JSJ platform is also evil.

The Riptide is not the only thing in 40K that is way too strong. Far from it. But it still deserves the nerfhammer, and deserves it hard.

How does the bike squad example work in practice, assuming by 'grav bikers' you mean Command squad and not the bike squad with their lone grav gun:
You shoot, you pass Gets Hot!, blast doesn't scatter,so you hit let's say 4 bikers ( realistically it will most often be 3 with proper spacing). The guy up front with the Storm Shield (captain or Chapter Master)takes the let's say 4 wounds (again we assume no 1 was rolled for to Wound, blocks 2/3 on his 3++. Congrats! You have just done 1.25 wounds to a grav bike squad. If he has no Apothecary that is.

Next round your Riptide us eating 12 grav shots, possibly with Perfect Timing if he allied in a Rune Priest like most bikestars seem.to do nowadays.

Also, the facr that Tac Squads pay 'very dearly' for 3+ and t4 is one of the reasons they're terrible troops.

 Ashiraya wrote:

Co'tor Shas wrote:Actually walker would make sense, specifically super-heavy walker LOW. Essentially a tau knight.

I thought the idea of Tau was that they don't want big stompy walkers and that the Riptide already was straining their theme?

Yes, but as long as we have one, lets make it that way.

I would be perfectly fine if it was just removed altogether. Or just discontinue it and give it to FW. Considering FW mostly does rare or specialized stuff, it would fit, and the model, judging from their two, would be amazing.

There are so many points in this thread where i'm just like 'Did they really just say that?'
The riptide seems to be the single most hated unit in the game at this point.

Some questions:
Why can't Tau have access to a long range AP2 blast? Other armies have it.
Why can't Tau have a single unit over T4 in their army? It is the only option over T4 in the book and other armies have units of higher T.
Why can't Tau have a unit with a 2+ save? There is only 2 units in the book with a 2+ save.
Why can't Tau have a 3++ save? There are no units with a native 3++ save in the book.

Thing i will agree should be addressed.
Cost of the IA
Maybe remove the 5++ (it doesn't make much too sense anyway)
Maybe drop a wound

As mentioned earlier in the thread it's a scaled up suit so it does make sense.
S6/7 T6 as Crisis suits are S5 T4 and they're 2 stages bigger.
2+ armour makes sense.
the IA can't really change because then it's inconsistent with Ion Weapons.

Tau natively have access to Ignores Cover and BS+ so you can't do much about this.