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So a few lists on a thread made up of only a couple people say the Riptide is overpowered and that means that it is? Seriously? and seriously Martel we compare it to the dread tonight because it is one of the most relatable things to a Riptide as they are both MC, and both have similar stats. were not justifying anything because there is nothing that needs to be justified about the base Riptide it's perfectly fine the way it is, raise the cost of the ion accelerator for change the ion accelerator and you're good to go. I know it's not going to accomplish anything though because most of you seem to only want to nerf the thing into the ground to the point where you can just walk all over it.

" most of you seem to only want to nerf the thing into the ground to the point where you can just walk all over it."

No, we genuinely think the base chasis is undercosted. Because we think that it is already undercosted, costing it appropriately won't nerf it into the ground. It is NOT perfectly fine the way it is. It's too fast, too tough.

Except that is already costed perfectly fine, there's nothing wrong with the base Riptide for the points you pay for it.

 gmaleron wrote:
Except that is already costed perfectly fine, there's nothing wrong with the base Riptide for the points you pay for it.

We think it's undercosted compared to other MCs in the game. And certainly compared to walkers. It's wrong that the base Riptide is still almost impossible to destroy at the ranges it engages. Outside melta. Outside grav. Outside plasma guns.

Wow something that can move six inches with a random movement after the fact is too fast? And really took a6 is too tough I guess that means you're Dreadknight needs to lose T6 as well because its too tough. and again you guys must play on the longest table in the world with no cover or terrain of any kind because I fail to see how hard it is to get in range of a riptide.

"IMO, as long as Jink mechanics exist, Ignore Cover (Tau or otherwise) should stay right there.
Once you get rid of Skimmers and bikes granting themselves 3-4+ in the middle of an open field I 100% agree the game would get better by gettong rid of most Ignore Cover."

Well it makes relying on normal cover impossible. Most of my units I field have some ignore cover aspect to them. Mostly cause everyone and their mother is bringing units that get 2+ cover in ruins...which IMO is insane. Ignore cover is gold right now - tau get it much easier than others. I see this as a problem.

 gmaleron wrote:
Wow something that can move six inches with a random movement after the fact is too fast? And really took a6 is too tough I guess that means you're Dreadknight needs to lose T6 as well because its too tough.

Dreadknights are practically suicide units. At least from the games I've seen them in. That's the OPPOSITE of a Riptide.

They have different roles and if anyone is using a Dreadknight for suicide unit then they are not playing it correctly. Already been through with you once before in regards to tactics but then again I'm not surprised you don't remember

Comparing it to the DK is probably best.

Is the Riptide dominating the meta? No. Nigh unbeatable? No.

But does it wreak almost anything that isn't OP? Yeah.

Does it have many strengths and no real weakness? Yeah.

Does it feel out of place in a game of minis? Yeah.

Are there a reasonable amount of non-cheesy ways to handle it? No.

Generally, its too tough to kill. Generally, it shoots too well to ignore. Generally, its too good at CC to assault with any bullies or midrange generalists. Generally, its too fast to keep away from. Generally, it will hit you from the other side of the table.

Its not so much that its OP. Its that you don't play against it, you endure its fuckery.

That's the real problem.

(Same boat as all Knights)

niv-mizzet wrote:

Which costs more than the riptide by himself. You don't see a tactical issue with putting a shield on a unit that costs more than the unit you're shielding against? I do. It means they have more army than you elsewhere.

Speaking of which, can't the CM pretty much solo the Riptide anyway?

Also, I love how nobody has mentioned the Dakka-Flyrant yet .

 gmaleron wrote:
So a few lists on a thread made up of only a couple people say the Riptide is overpowered and that means that it is? Seriously? and seriously Martel we compare it to the dread tonight because it is one of the most relatable things to a Riptide as they are both MC, and both have similar stats. were not justifying anything because there is nothing that needs to be justified about the base Riptide it's perfectly fine the way it is, raise the cost of the ion accelerator for change the ion accelerator and you're good to go. I know it's not going to accomplish anything though because most of you seem to only want to nerf the thing into the ground to the point where you can just walk all over it.

Repeatedly straw manning doesn't get us anywhere. In fact it leads to heated arguments which is what has probably gotten some mod activity up in here.

I don't want it nerfed to the ground. I want it to pay $5 for its $5 sub like I do. I want it to pay taxes like I do. I want some measure of equality.

I think the realm of "nigh-unkillable shooters with large blasts of no-save doom" should be relegated to super heavies only. As I've said before, to my guys on the table, there is no functional difference between getting hit with two lights and an IA blast, and getting hit with a str D blast that rolls a 6 on the D chart. The squad is dying either way with no rolls I can possibly make. At least on the D I could be like "oh well, he could've not rolled a 6 and I would've gotten cover, that's just an unlucky big roll." On the IA, it's par for the course.

I've heard several times people compare MCs to walkers and complaining about comparative durability. Why can't the answer be to buff walkers? I would love to see more Dreadnoughts on the board; but they're slow and often their weapon combinations don't make sense outside of FW AA variants.

As a Tau player, I'd love to see the internal balance improve with Stealth Suits, Pathfinders and Hammerheads being takeable again in a competitive environment. If the IA tide goes up 10-15 points and EWO costs 20-25 instead of 5 (which I will absolutely cede as ridiculously cheap), then fine. I prefer the HBC anyway. Call me crazy, but I much prefer it. With all the Wave Serpents and Flyrants around, I think it's the better platform. I don't have any problems killing marines without IAs.

The issue I take with that is it ISNT any of those things, I primarily play with my IG and I never have as many issues as people are claiming its pretty ridiculous, I'm chalking a lot of what's being said to just Tau hate and IoM elitism at this point

Bharring wrote:
Comparing it to the DK is probably best.

Is the Riptide dominating the meta? No. Nigh unbeatable? No.

But does it wreak almost anything that isn't OP? Yeah.

Does it have many strengths and no real weakness? Yeah.

Does it feel out of place in a game of minis? Yeah.

Are there a reasonable amount of non-cheesy ways to handle it? No.

Generally, its too tough to kill. Generally, it shoots too well to ignore. Generally, its too good at CC to assault with any bullies or midrange generalists. Generally, its too fast to keep away from. Generally, it will hit you from the other side of the table.

Its not so much that its OP. Its that you don't play against it, you endure its fuckery.

That's the real problem.

(Same boat as all Knights)

This sums it up very nicely. It's basically a unit that instantly turns the game from "fun" to "competitive level" as soon as it shows up. Non-competitive choices are instantly fodder as soon as a tide hits the table.

Although I think the wraithknight actually pays enough points to get what it deserves, if not being a tad bit overcosted. I've never had much trouble with them.

The Shrike wrote:
The IoM people can complain all they want. You're just not taking the right units if you want to compete. Now, if you want live by rule #1, believe me, I salute you. But you don't get to complain that your list with 3 rhinos, 2 predators, 2 dreadnoughts, devastators and a librarian gets trolled off the table by a triptide list. Your list sucks, not your army.

Thank you for making the point. Riptide, say hi to Draigo, grav cents and Tiggy, because only then are we at the same power level.

niv-mizzet wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Comparing it to the DK is probably best.

Is the Riptide dominating the meta? No. Nigh unbeatable? No.

But does it wreak almost anything that isn't OP? Yeah.

Does it have many strengths and no real weakness? Yeah.

Does it feel out of place in a game of minis? Yeah.

Are there a reasonable amount of non-cheesy ways to handle it? No.

Generally, its too tough to kill. Generally, it shoots too well to ignore. Generally, its too good at CC to assault with any bullies or midrange generalists. Generally, its too fast to keep away from. Generally, it will hit you from the other side of the table.

Its not so much that its OP. Its that you don't play against it, you endure its fuckery.

That's the real problem.

(Same boat as all Knights)

This sums it up very nicely. It's basically a unit that instantly turns the game from "fun" to "competitive level" as soon as it shows up. Non-competitive choices are instantly fodder as soon as a tide hits the table.

Although I think the wraithknight actually pays enough points to get what it deserves, if not being a tad bit overcosted. I've never had much trouble with them.

WK are easy. Ignore cover on almost any high end shooting unit and it goes down in a single turn - no invo or FNP = dead.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Naw wrote:

The Shrike wrote:
The IoM people can complain all they want. You're just not taking the right units if you want to compete. Now, if you want live by rule #1, believe me, I salute you. But you don't get to complain that your list with 3 rhinos, 2 predators, 2 dreadnoughts, devastators and a librarian gets trolled off the table by a triptide list. Your list sucks, not your army.

Thank you for making the point. Riptide, say hi to Draigo, grav cents and Tiggy, because only then are we at the same power level.

THAT IS A 800 point squad. Comparable to 4 riptides.

 gmaleron wrote:
They have different roles and if anyone is using a Dreadknight for suicide unit then they are not playing it correctly. Already been through with you once before in regards to tactics but then again I'm not surprised you don't remember

I remember, I just don't agree. The range of the DK's weapons often necessarily makes it a suicide unit. The GK opponent doesn't have to cooperate and set their army up in a "please-come-attack-me-DK" formation. I can't hide from the Riptide w/o LOS blocking. I can't out range it with weapons that matter. I can't catch it. The GK practically jumps into its own grave in comparison. Often, there is no "right way" for GK players to avoid this.

Edited by RiTides

 gmaleron wrote:
The issue I take with that is it ISNT any of those things, I primarily play with my IG and I never have as many issues as people are claiming its pretty ridiculous, I'm chalking a lot of what's being said to just Tau hate and IoM elitism at this point

I'm a Tau player.

Or more accurately, I was a Tau player until they nerfed all my favourite units unrecognizable to make room for their big, shiny Mary-Sue slice & dice Mechaking.

Bharring wrote:
Comparing it to the DK is probably best.

Is the Riptide dominating the meta? No. Nigh unbeatable? No.

But does it wreak almost anything that isn't OP? Yeah.

Does it have many strengths and no real weakness? Yeah.

Does it feel out of place in a game of minis? Yeah.

Are there a reasonable amount of non-cheesy ways to handle it? No.

Generally, its too tough to kill. Generally, it shoots too well to ignore. Generally, its too good at CC to assault with any bullies or midrange generalists. Generally, its too fast to keep away from. Generally, it will hit you from the other side of the table.

Its not so much that its OP. Its that you don't play against it, you endure its fuckery.

That's the real problem.

(Same boat as all Knights)

This. Even Bharring and I agree on this. That's not good for team Tau.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Backfire wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
The issue I take with that is it ISNT any of those things, I primarily play with my IG and I never have as many issues as people are claiming its pretty ridiculous, I'm chalking a lot of what's being said to just Tau hate and IoM elitism at this point

I'm a Tau player.

Or more accurately, I was a Tau player until they nerfed all my favourite units unrecognizable to make room for their big, shiny Mary-Sue slice & dice Mechaking.

I agree they hosed Tau vehicles unnecessarily.

You can say and get the exact same thing with the Dreadknigjt though:

Is the Dreadknight dominating the meta? No. Nigh unbeatable? No.

But does it wreak almost anything that isn't OP? Yeah.

Does it have many strengths and no real weakness? Yeah.

Does it feel out of place in a game of minis? Yeah.

Are there a reasonable amount of non-cheesy ways to handle it? No.

Exactly the same responses as anything that can kill a Dreadknight can also kill a Riptide.

niv-mizzet wrote:
Which costs more than the riptide by himself. You don't see a tactical issue with putting a shield on a unit that costs more than the unit you're shielding against? I do. It means they have more army than you elsewhere.

And the Riptide needs more army in order to go from powerful to tasteless. Removing cover and boosting BS costs markerlight hits. How much of the Tau force is shooting MLs at those bikers in order to get four hits, leaving the rest of the marines in peace?

I find it funny how people say the base riptide is OP and fail to see how most of their points do not even apply on the Base riptide

SGTPozy wrote:
You can say and get the exact same thing with the Dreadknigjt though:

Is the Dreadknight dominating the meta? No. Nigh unbeatable? No.

But does it wreak almost anything that isn't OP? Yeah.

Does it have many strengths and no real weakness? Yeah.

Does it feel out of place in a game of minis? Yeah.

Are there a reasonable amount of non-cheesy ways to handle it? No.

Exactly the same responses as anything that can kill a Dreadknight can also kill a Riptide.

This is incorrect.

The Dreadknight does not wreck all stuff that isn't OP.

It does not have many strengths and no real weaknesses. Its optimal operating range is right in the same range as the weapons which kill it, plasma and melta. The Riptide doesn't have this weakness.

There are plenty of non-cheesy ways to handle it, like just having a squad of melta or plasma or grav weapons.

Melta, Plasma, and Grav would be good at killing Riptides too, if they could actually get to where the Riptide is. and didn't have the riptide shoot their faces off when they deep strike in to kill it.

 BoomWolf wrote:
I find it funny how people say the base riptide is OP and fail to see how most of their points do not even apply on the Base riptide

Maybe because the base Riptide is the lesser of two evils? So most people concentrate on making the IA one more appropriate first. One thing at a time.

Personally I don't even play with many Riptides; usually 1 in my Enclaves and always with an HBC and the earth caste array. So let it be known I don't care if they nerf the IA.

Do the Riptide's detractors really care about the HBC version? I'm getting the impressions that the hate is for the Ion Accelerator. So if that becomes a 20 point upgrade and EWO is also made a 20-25 upgrade, would that make you happy? FWIW, I think both of those are likely, the EWO nerf slightly moreso (and more warranted).

 The Shrike wrote:
Personally I don't even play with many Riptides; usually 1 in my Enclaves and always with an HBC and the earth caste array. So let it be known I don't care if they nerf the IA.

Do the Riptide's detractors really care about the HBC version? I'm getting the impressions that the hate is for the Ion Accelerator. So if that becomes a 20 point upgrade and EWO is also made a 20-25 upgrade, would that make you happy? FWIW, I think both of those are likely, the EWO nerf slightly moreso (and more warranted).

My position is strange on the HBC. I think the HBC should be buffed, which would mean it would then draw the same hate as the IA with the current pricing. However, as it currently stands, the HBC doesn't bother me. It's super weak that it was so many more chances to Get Hot than the more potent weapon. Everything about this unit is frustrating, even the options that don't get taken often.

The EWO doesn't bother me much because those shots are considerably less efficacious.

 Grey Templar wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
You can say and get the exact same thing with the Dreadknigjt though:

Is the Dreadknight dominating the meta? No. Nigh unbeatable? No.

But does it wreak almost anything that isn't OP? Yeah.

Does it have many strengths and no real weakness? Yeah.

Does it feel out of place in a game of minis? Yeah.

Are there a reasonable amount of non-cheesy ways to handle it? No.

Exactly the same responses as anything that can kill a Dreadknight can also kill a Riptide.

This is incorrect.

The Dreadknight does not wreck all stuff that isn't OP.

It does not have many strengths and no real weaknesses. Its optimal operating range is right in the same range as the weapons which kill it, plasma and melta. The Riptide doesn't have this weakness.

There are plenty of non-cheesy ways to handle it, like just having a squad of melta or plasma or grav weapons.

Melta, Plasma, and Grav would be good at killing Riptides too, if they could actually get to where the Riptide is. and didn't have the riptide shoot their faces off when they deep strike in to kill it.

This isn't accurate at all, the same weapons can take care of a riptide just as much as a Dreadknight, again you people must play on the longest boards in existence to never get them in range. and of course because it's in IOM vehicle its not OP, typical.

 Grey Templar wrote:

There are plenty of non-cheesy ways to handle it, like just having a squad of melta or plasma or grav weapons.

Melta, Plasma, and Grav would be good at killing Riptides too, if they could actually get to where the Riptide is. and didn't have the riptide shoot their faces off when they deep strike in to kill it.

So Riptide is cheesy but grav guns are not?

LordBlades wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

There are plenty of non-cheesy ways to handle it, like just having a squad of melta or plasma or grav weapons.

Melta, Plasma, and Grav would be good at killing Riptides too, if they could actually get to where the Riptide is. and didn't have the riptide shoot their faces off when they deep strike in to kill it.

So Riptide is cheesy but grav guns are not?

Grav guns have disproportionate firepower for their cost. I also consider them an "oh gak" patch for the marines once GW realized what they had done with Tau and Eldar. On the other hand, the units with grav guns are considerably less durable than the Riptide unless you get into invis shenanigans. Stock grav cents can actually be engaged effectively outside their range. Riptides can not.

 Grey Templar wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
You can say and get the exact same thing with the Dreadknigjt though:

Is the Dreadknight dominating the meta? No. Nigh unbeatable? No.

But does it wreak almost anything that isn't OP? Yeah.

Does it have many strengths and no real weakness? Yeah.

Does it feel out of place in a game of minis? Yeah.

Are there a reasonable amount of non-cheesy ways to handle it? No.

Exactly the same responses as anything that can kill a Dreadknight can also kill a Riptide.

This is incorrect.

The Dreadknight does not wreck all stuff that isn't OP.

It does not have many strengths and no real weaknesses. Its optimal operating range is right in the same range as the weapons which kill it, plasma and melta. The Riptide doesn't have this weakness.

There are plenty of non-cheesy ways to handle it, like just having a squad of melta or plasma or grav weapons.

Melta, Plasma, and Grav would be good at killing Riptides too, if they could actually get to where the Riptide is. and didn't have the riptide shoot their faces off when they deep strike in to kill it.

What doesn't the Dreadknight wreck? The Riptide on the other hand doesn't rape non-marines; so only half of the armies are wrecked.
Dreadknight on the other hand wrecks marines in combat and non-marines in shooting AND combat.

The Riptide fails in combat, the Dreadknight is extremely powerful n all four phases and has a 4++ (on a roll of a single 4+) which protects it against plasma.
Dreadknights are also always in pairs whilst Riptides are not.

How is Grav not cheesy? Grav is the most broken gun type in the game!

If the Riptide intercepts deepstrikers then you can get your cheesy Grav guys in range.