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 gmaleron wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
You can say and get the exact same thing with the Dreadknigjt though:

Is the Dreadknight dominating the meta? No. Nigh unbeatable? No.

But does it wreak almost anything that isn't OP? Yeah.

Does it have many strengths and no real weakness? Yeah.

Does it feel out of place in a game of minis? Yeah.

Are there a reasonable amount of non-cheesy ways to handle it? No.

Exactly the same responses as anything that can kill a Dreadknight can also kill a Riptide.

This is incorrect.

The Dreadknight does not wreck all stuff that isn't OP.

It does not have many strengths and no real weaknesses. Its optimal operating range is right in the same range as the weapons which kill it, plasma and melta. The Riptide doesn't have this weakness.

There are plenty of non-cheesy ways to handle it, like just having a squad of melta or plasma or grav weapons.

Melta, Plasma, and Grav would be good at killing Riptides too, if they could actually get to where the Riptide is. and didn't have the riptide shoot their faces off when they deep strike in to kill it.

This isn't accurate at all, the same weapons can take care of a riptide just as much as a Dreadknight, again you people must play on the longest boards in existence to never get them in range. and of course because it's in IOM vehicle its not OP, typical.

"

Even on a standard board, the DK is begging to get vaporized whereas the Riptide puts it off for as long as humanly possible. I don't understand why this is such a difficult concept to admit.

I never said the Riptide was cheesy. I'm saying its too good for the points.

 gmaleron wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
You can say and get the exact same thing with the Dreadknigjt though:

Is the Dreadknight dominating the meta? No. Nigh unbeatable? No.

But does it wreak almost anything that isn't OP? Yeah.

Does it have many strengths and no real weakness? Yeah.

Does it feel out of place in a game of minis? Yeah.

Are there a reasonable amount of non-cheesy ways to handle it? No.

Exactly the same responses as anything that can kill a Dreadknight can also kill a Riptide.

This is incorrect.

The Dreadknight does not wreck all stuff that isn't OP.

It does not have many strengths and no real weaknesses. Its optimal operating range is right in the same range as the weapons which kill it, plasma and melta. The Riptide doesn't have this weakness.

There are plenty of non-cheesy ways to handle it, like just having a squad of melta or plasma or grav weapons.

Melta, Plasma, and Grav would be good at killing Riptides too, if they could actually get to where the Riptide is. and didn't have the riptide shoot their faces off when they deep strike in to kill it.

This isn't accurate at all, the same weapons can take care of a riptide just as much as a Dreadknight, again you people must play on the longest boards in existence to never get them in range. and of course because it's in IOM vehicle its not OP, typical.

They'll never get in range because they must get there one of two ways.

1) Deep Strike. But Tau have Interceptor out the wazoo, so that doesn't work.

2) Just walking/driving up the board. But this doesn't work well either because that gives the Tau 2-3 turns of shooting. And at that point it wouldn't even matter if you managed to kill the riptide as its killed what it needs to and the game is mostly over. Long range AP2 doesn't have the volume of fire to get through 5 wounds with a 3+ invuln or 4+ cover.


The Dreadknight MUST run straight into the jaws of its hard counters to be useful because it has short ranged guns and melee. It also only has a 4+ invuln.

Thus its far far easier to kill because it operates in the range of its hard counters, the Riptide operates well outside the ranges of its hard counters and it has abilities which mitigate one of the main delivery systems of its hard counters.

"1) Deep Strike. But Tau have Interceptor out the wazoo, so that doesn't work. "

There is also bubblewrapping and use of any available blocking terrain to force pods to be out of range. Then, of course, there's the firepower concentration issue of trying to use so many short range weapons from drop pods without being able to stack on top of each other. This isn't Starcraft where my mutas can clump up.

And the Tau player would probably be more than willing to allow you to clump up. Makes a nice little place to drop his IA pie plate.

Martel732 wrote:

LordBlades wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

There are plenty of non-cheesy ways to handle it, like just having a squad of melta or plasma or grav weapons.

Melta, Plasma, and Grav would be good at killing Riptides too, if they could actually get to where the Riptide is. and didn't have the riptide shoot their faces off when they deep strike in to kill it.

So Riptide is cheesy but grav guns are not?

Grav guns have disproportionate firepower for their cost. I also consider them an "oh gak" patch for the marines once GW realized what they had done with Tau and Eldar. On the other hand, the units with grav guns are considerably less durable than the Riptide unless you get into invis shenanigans. Stock grav cents can actually be engaged effectively outside their range. Riptides can not.

While the Riptide might be stronger stock, there's.a lot more you can do with Grav Gun, like bikes with chapter master (and Divination buffs from SW allies) or invisibility and GoI for centurions. Among these two things, grav guns end at the top end of tournaments way more than Riptides nowadays.

Martel732 wrote:
"1) Deep Strike. But Tau have Interceptor out the wazoo, so that doesn't work. "

There is also bubblewrapping and use of any available blocking terrain to force pods to be out of range. Then, of course, there's the firepower concentration issue of trying to use so many short range weapons from drop pods without being able to stack on top of each other. This isn't Starcraft where my mutas can clump up.

What a surprise, Martel complaining about drop pods...

LordBlades wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

LordBlades wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

There are plenty of non-cheesy ways to handle it, like just having a squad of melta or plasma or grav weapons.

Melta, Plasma, and Grav would be good at killing Riptides too, if they could actually get to where the Riptide is. and didn't have the riptide shoot their faces off when they deep strike in to kill it.

So Riptide is cheesy but grav guns are not?

Grav guns have disproportionate firepower for their cost. I also consider them an "oh gak" patch for the marines once GW realized what they had done with Tau and Eldar. On the other hand, the units with grav guns are considerably less durable than the Riptide unless you get into invis shenanigans. Stock grav cents can actually be engaged effectively outside their range. Riptides can not.

While the Riptide might be stronger stock, there's.a lot more you can do with Grav Gun, like bikes with chapter master (and Divination buffs from SW allies) or invisibility and GoI for centurions. Among these two things, grav guns end at the top end of tournaments way more than Riptides nowadays.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

Just because something else is super strong doesn't excuse the Riptide from being that too.

I would way rather have Grav Centurions in my Tau codex than a Riptide for two reasons:
1) They're far more competitive.
2) They aren't complained about anywhere near as much.

Out of curiosity, do you guys think that Grav guns would be considered even cheesier if they belonged to a Xeno army? Since all Xenos stuff is OP whilst nothing the IoM has is OP /sarcasm.

There is an absolutely fun way to field tau, maximum pathfinder infantry, then allow me to change in with my khorne berserkers / terminators / assault marines.

Kidding, kidding, winning that easy isn't really fun. (as if I would know how fun winning is )

My thoughts are lots of broadsides and battlesuits with Farsight as the warlord, a squad of pathfinders, and lots of fire warriors and flyers.

 Grey Templar wrote:

LordBlades wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

LordBlades wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

There are plenty of non-cheesy ways to handle it, like just having a squad of melta or plasma or grav weapons.

Melta, Plasma, and Grav would be good at killing Riptides too, if they could actually get to where the Riptide is. and didn't have the riptide shoot their faces off when they deep strike in to kill it.

So Riptide is cheesy but grav guns are not?

Grav guns have disproportionate firepower for their cost. I also consider them an "oh gak" patch for the marines once GW realized what they had done with Tau and Eldar. On the other hand, the units with grav guns are considerably less durable than the Riptide unless you get into invis shenanigans. Stock grav cents can actually be engaged effectively outside their range. Riptides can not.

While the Riptide might be stronger stock, there's.a lot more you can do with Grav Gun, like bikes with chapter master (and Divination buffs from SW allies) or invisibility and GoI for centurions. Among these two things, grav guns end at the top end of tournaments way more than Riptides nowadays.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

Just because something else is super strong doesn't excuse the Riptide from being that too.

Why didn't you can quote Martel? He was the one saying that Grav guns are justified because of the Riptide...

 Grey Templar wrote:

LordBlades wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

LordBlades wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

There are plenty of non-cheesy ways to handle it, like just having a squad of melta or plasma or grav weapons.

Melta, Plasma, and Grav would be good at killing Riptides too, if they could actually get to where the Riptide is. and didn't have the riptide shoot their faces off when they deep strike in to kill it.

So Riptide is cheesy but grav guns are not?

Grav guns have disproportionate firepower for their cost. I also consider them an "oh gak" patch for the marines once GW realized what they had done with Tau and Eldar. On the other hand, the units with grav guns are considerably less durable than the Riptide unless you get into invis shenanigans. Stock grav cents can actually be engaged effectively outside their range. Riptides can not.

While the Riptide might be stronger stock, there's.a lot more you can do with Grav Gun, like bikes with chapter master (and Divination buffs from SW allies) or invisibility and GoI for centurions. Among these two things, grav guns end at the top end of tournaments way more than Riptides nowadays.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

Just because something else is super strong doesn't excuse the Riptide from being that too.

Then if ypu nerf Riptides what's Tau supposed to do competitively seeing as they don't do too hot right niw, despite all the 'OP' Riptides?


Meanwhile grav guns are available to over half the fqctions in this game through the lovely Ally Matrix.

Lol he thinks people complain about gravturions less. They don't.

Because this thread isn't about Grav guns. Its about the Riptide. Start a conversation about Grav gun nerfing and we can lay into them.

Grav Cents without special character librarians are at least having to roll to get invis. But yeah, invis and the grav cannon are two things the game didn't need. The grav centurion arose from the same thinking that gave us WS and Riptide.

 BoomWolf wrote:
I find it funny how people say the base riptide is OP and fail to see how most of their points do not even apply on the Base riptide

Basically all complaints stem from the fact it has undeniable FNP combined with a 2+ save and 5 W. Complaints about it's dmg stem from being impossible to kill. You don't see people complaining about basalisks and vindicators or even LR demoloishers...its because all those things die pretty reliably to the weapons designed to kill them. Riptides mathmatically can eat 15 grav cannons wounds and still surive if their 3++ is up...Thats literally the best weapon in the game...vs it's desinged counter and it still should survive a full volly.

 Quickjager wrote:
Lol he thinks people complain about gravturions less. They don't.

Yes, they are contained about FAR less because they're IoM (just like with TWC, Dreadknights, Draigo, Chapter Tactics etc).

 Quickjager wrote:
Lol he thinks people complain about gravturions less. They don't.

I doubt it. From reading the forums there seems to be way more Riptude hate than anythimg else (WS included)

You have a problem w/ Chapter Tactics?

SGTPozy wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Lol he thinks people complain about gravturions less. They don't.

Yes, they are contained about FAR less because they're IoM (just like with TWC, Dreadknights, Draigo, Chapter Tactics etc).

You're not paying very good attention. Gravstar's get a lot of hate.

Don't forget that grav weapons kick 2+ marine units in the balls just as hard, and they have enough problems because they are T4 W1.

Yeah, Chapter Tactics are ridiculously good benefits that the army gets FOR FREE!
They should have to be paid for like Chaos Marks.

Does Gravstar hate exceed Riptide hate? I doubt it.

Now I don't want to derail the thread anymore than I already have so if you have a reply, please PM me.

Chiming in as another imperium player who wishes relentless grav bikers, gravturions, knights, invis, sevrin loth, and a few other things in the imperium didn't exist. The only xeno things I really take issue with are shooty FMC's, serpents, and riptides. And I dislike general flyer mechanics overall.

The only reason I've been talking about a riptide is because the thread was started specifically ABOUT the riptide. If you want to make a thread about any of the other dozen broken things in the game, and I feel like I have the experience to comment on them, I'll come to your thread and let you know what I think.

If all that stuff were reigned in, we might get back to having some actual troops on the table, instead of a handful of large models that completely invalidate them for less cost. What a glorious day that would be.

 Grey Templar wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Lol he thinks people complain about gravturions less. They don't.

Yes, they are contained about FAR less because they're IoM (just like with TWC, Dreadknights, Draigo, Chapter Tactics etc).

You're not paying very good attention. Gravstar's get a lot of hate.

It's fair hate too. Grav Cannons are too good. Theres no denying that. as I pointed out though...riptides can take a full volley from 3 centurians and come out on top....how many units can do that in this game for under 300 points?

I'm not denying that there isn't hate, what I'm saying is that (not here, but in general on Dakka) Riptide hate is extremely improportionate compared to its effectiveness and other more powerful units are not as complained about as this one slightly too durable unit.

Of course the hate wouldn't be here, I'm not an idiot.

 Xenomancers wrote:
How many units can do that in this game for under 300 points?

Wraiths, probably.

You need ID to deal with resilient targets quickly or you're better off with damage mitigation.

SGTPozy wrote:
I'm not denying that there isn't hate, what I'm saying is that (not here, but in general on Dakka) Riptide hate is extremely improportionate compared to its effectiveness and other more powerful units are not as combined about as this one slightly too durable unit.

It may be because the riptide was near the start of the snowball before it started becoming an avalanche.
Before the tide it was like...flyers with too little anti-air around. Before that I didn't have many issues with units knocking other units off the table with no saves from relative impunity.

SGTPozy wrote:
I'm not denying that there isn't hate, what I'm saying is that (not here, but in general on Dakka) Riptide hate is extremely improportionate compared to its effectiveness and other more powerful units are not as complained about as this one slightly too durable unit.

Of course the hate wouldn't be here, I'm not an idiot.

No that is because it has been unanimous that they ARE too good, there is nothing to discuss as there is no one defending them, go on start a thread on it; now the Riptide on the other hand...

The only unit in the game with grav cannons also has grav amps. Why did they need to make grav amps a thing? If you aren't using the appropriately tiered units, grav cannons are a certain death sentence. It's stupid.

If a Riptide can survive it I'm sure a Dreadknight can too, as can TWC.

Pozy you are already ignoring the fact the Riptide has an additional wound, possibly FNP, and at least 40 inches between the two units. Whereas the DK is ten inches away and 4 wounds to begin with.