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 Xenomancers wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Pozy you are already ignoring the fact the Riptide has an additional wound, possibly FNP, and at least 40 inches between the two units. Whereas the DK is ten inches away and 4 wounds to begin with.

It's only one wound, if the Riptide is left standing with one wound then it isn't going to be of much use for the rest of the game.

At least 40 inches? Umm, not with Draigo and his GoI shenanigans.
Riptides cannot hide anywhere near as far away as you people claim.

Statisically it's just as likely to end up with 2 wounds as opposed to one...this is assuming that every grav has hit and wounded.
In reality. its 15 shots - 10 hits - 9 wounds - resulting in 2 wounds dealt. rockets or bolters statistically shouldn't wound once.

Really makes you wonder why tau aren't winning more games in tournaments. Wait! They win more than any other army other than Imperial knights...I'm sure riptides are a big part of this.

Actually, according to torrent of fire, they are 9th.
http://www.torrentoffire.com/6767/graphing-lvo

A quick glance at the right shows you they are the 3rd most winning army. only .5% behind eldar...winning over 55% of games...

That's the popularity graph, the win% graph is further down.

that graph is inconsistent with the 55% win rate it shows you on the top right side column. That shows IK, Eldar, follow by tau....maybe that is including tau taken as allies? In any case - it's pretty misleading to have that be on the front page if it's not actually true.

I just noticed the sidebar. I'm not sure what that is based on, but the graph is based on the LVO.

I hate that graph... it is literally all gravstar, look at % of allied detachments for GK... 100%

In my experience it's always been my opponents fault he loses. They ignore my Markerlights, which for the most part I would rather use to put my BS to 5, then ignore cover if I have tokens left over. Often times I will be mobile keeping units close heading of objectives while my pathfinders call out targets. Broadsides with heavy weapons fire.

and ALWAYS people go straight for my Riptides, Broadsides, Crisis suits and just get gunned down because they ignored my pathfinders aiding these units. If these units where left to fire at BS3(not so much for Broadsides but still) they would not be as much of a threat.

That said, Guard are an extremely snooty army. Has ignores cover coming out the butt, and tons of S6 shooting, access to the rest of the imperium as perfect allies, meaning Librarians, assorted other buff units can just join them and allow them to do crazy things. But it's rarely complained about on the same level as Tau.

Like its been said, Tau where unfortunate to be the first of the powerful armies, and they are stuck with that reputation that seemingly bad players, or stubborn players unwilling to learn the weaknesses of Tau and the ways to play on those weaknesses, not just hitting them with swords, will get Tau nerfed into oblivion when they finally get a new dex, they won't get balanced, they're near it now. They are going to get nerfed to oblivion.

Martel732 wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Pozy you are already ignoring the fact the Riptide has an additional wound, possibly FNP, and at least 40 inches between the two units. Whereas the DK is ten inches away and 4 wounds to begin with.

It's only one wound, if the Riptide is left standing with one wound then it isn't going to be of much use for the rest of the game.

At least 40 inches? Umm, not with Draigo and his GoI shenanigans.
Riptides cannot hide anywhere near as far away as you people claim.

This ^^ I don't get how people are ALWAYS out of range of the Riptide, based on what some people are saying it sounds like they are on insanely huge tables.

They only need to be more than 24" away to eliminate most marine firepower that matters. Arguably, I'd say ALL firepower, because Ritpides don't care about lascannons, plasma cannons or autocannons.

Most (if not all) competitive marine lists are either:
-Centstars with GoI
-Grav Bikers
-Drop Pods

All lists that have no issue with distance. Has it occured to you that maybe in a comparison of an optimal tactic (Riptide at long range with plenty of Markerlights in range of you) vs. a suboptimal one (Marines at long range with no reliable gap closer), the suboptimal tactic is expected to lose?

 Grey Templar wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Pozy you are already ignoring the fact the Riptide has an additional wound, possibly FNP, and at least 40 inches between the two units. Whereas the DK is ten inches away and 4 wounds to begin with.

It's only one wound, if the Riptide is left standing with one wound then it isn't going to be of much use for the rest of the game.

At least 40 inches? Umm, not with Draigo and his GoI shenanigans.
Riptides cannot hide anywhere near as far away as you people claim.

When Draigo gates nearby you get to shoot that lovely IA at his clumped up squad of Centurions. Plus you were shooting at them previously.

And even when they do unload, you are most likely going to survive.

You can't intercept Draigo when he uses GoI (intercept triggers at the end of the movement phase, GoI goes off on the psychic phase).

Also, the centstar has the advantage of superior mobility. He can just wait for the round when you don't use or fail nova and then teleport in for the kill. Even if you do shoot him every round, he can just use Draigo (or another attached librarian) to soak it up. I regularly play against a centstar with Draigo and a GK librarian. 2 IA Riptides on their own aren't breaking that in 6 rounds of firing.

NauticalKendall wrote:
or stubborn players unwilling to learn the weaknesses of Tau...

I'm going to link a battle report below, here's how this guy dealt with a Riptide. He just tied it up with outflanking bikes long enough to bring in his dedicated melee HQ to stomp it. Not too complicated.

https://anenglishwargamer.wordpress.com/2015/02/27/the-grim-darkness-is-filled-with-victory/

So, obviously it's not impossible. That's not mentioning abilities like Terrify (28% chance to break a 225pt unit!), debuffs like Blind, whatever else can mess up a Riptide's game at a very low cost.

There is something of a current dogma in 40k that good lists bring as much ranged firepower to the table as possible and nothing else. That will win games and table armies but when it runs into a unit like a Riptide or an army like Decurion, it can fail. Expensive and vulnerable 2+/3+ drop infantry that can't catch one, kill one, or survive an AP2 blast are not going to work, nor is ranged firepower that mostly bounces off it. Flexibility is a principle of war outside 40k, but utility units that don't bring ranged firepower are usually seen as dead weight. I'm not sure you can entirely blame the Riptide for this fact.

Lol. That chart made me laugh so hard just because BA is at the bottom and Martel has been complaining about them.
Fair enough dude.

I still hold a belief they're an excellent army. But it is just my opinion. And I still do genuinely want to help you find a way to win more with them. (I came up with a list the other day).

I saw Schroeder's riptide appear again for comparative purposes.
Can I just point out that an actual riptide would die a lot easier.
I'm not good at math hammer but I'm confident you drop a couple of plasma guns or drive up with some Gravguns it's gonna lose half it's wounds or more. Is everyone trying to one turn it? That is a touch more troublesome.

If I'm honest, keep believing it's infallable, means more freedom for everything else I own.
I also believe in dice sense I.e. You feel negatively, you have bad rolls. This could be a factor.

"Most (if not all) competitive marine lists are either:
-Centstars with GoI
-Grav Bikers
-Drop Pods "

So a unit that door stops everything in meq codices that aren't those things is not OP? Most marine codices can't even field centstars without allies.

Btw I think the reason people hate Tau so much comparatively to every other army is Tau don't need to advance.

They're not foot slogging (or equivalent) across the field shooting with the eventual aim of getting in melee, like every other single army in the game.

People get frustrated with this because it takes longer to achieve the same end result.

Really Tau would move away constantly, as is their combat doctrine.

Yoyoyo wrote:

NauticalKendall wrote:
or stubborn players unwilling to learn the weaknesses of Tau...

I'm going to link a battle report below, here's how this guy dealt with a Riptide. He just tied it up with outflanking bikes long enough to bring in his dedicated melee HQ to stomp it. Not too complicated.

https://anenglishwargamer.wordpress.com/2015/02/27/the-grim-darkness-is-filled-with-victory/

So, obviously it's not impossible. That's not mentioning abilities like Terrify (28% chance to break a 225pt unit!), debuffs like Blind, whatever else can mess up a Riptide's game at a very low cost.

There is something of a current dogma in 40k that good lists bring as much ranged firepower to the table as possible and nothing else. That will win games and table armies but when it runs into a unit like a Riptide or an army like Decurion, it can fail. Expensive and vulnerable 2+/3+ drop infantry that can't catch one, kill one, or survive an AP2 blast are not going to work, nor is ranged firepower that mostly bounces off it. Flexibility is a principle of war outside 40k, but utility units that don't bring ranged firepower are usually seen as dead weight. I'm not sure you can entirely blame the Riptide for this fact.

Are outflankers allowed to assault? It doesn't come up much for me.

No, outflankers can't assault....

Martel732 wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:

NauticalKendall wrote:
or stubborn players unwilling to learn the weaknesses of Tau...

I'm going to link a battle report below, here's how this guy dealt with a Riptide. He just tied it up with outflanking bikes long enough to bring in his dedicated melee HQ to stomp it. Not too complicated.

https://anenglishwargamer.wordpress.com/2015/02/27/the-grim-darkness-is-filled-with-victory/

So, obviously it's not impossible. That's not mentioning abilities like Terrify (28% chance to break a 225pt unit!), debuffs like Blind, whatever else can mess up a Riptide's game at a very low cost.

There is something of a current dogma in 40k that good lists bring as much ranged firepower to the table as possible and nothing else. That will win games and table armies but when it runs into a unit like a Riptide or an army like Decurion, it can fail. Expensive and vulnerable 2+/3+ drop infantry that can't catch one, kill one, or survive an AP2 blast are not going to work, nor is ranged firepower that mostly bounces off it. Flexibility is a principle of war outside 40k, but utility units that don't bring ranged firepower are usually seen as dead weight. I'm not sure you can entirely blame the Riptide for this fact.

Unless something's changed, no.
Are outflankers allowed to assault? It doesn't come up much for me.

So.... in this battlerep, did the Riptide assault the outflanking bikes? Because I don't see how the bikers could tie up the Riptide on the turn they come in. Sounds like the DA player had a cheating phase in there somewhere.

Martel732 wrote:
"Most (if not all) competitive marine lists are either:
-Centstars with GoI
-Grav Bikers
-Drop Pods "

So a unit that door stops everything in meq codices that aren't those things is not OP? Most marine codices can't even field centstars without allies.

The fact that your codex is Battle Brothers with half the armies in the game is an advantage you have, and can use whenever you want.

You can also do Drop Pods quite well without allies too.

You just seem to want to be able to beat a good unit/strategy without using good units/strategies yourself.

Sounds like the riptide was actually tying up the bikers rather than the other way around..

I don't want there to be gold units. That's what causes games to be broken.

I'm not buying an allied detachment to the tune of 100's of dollars. If GW is slowly trying to force me to ally in grav cents, I'm more than willing to drop out of 7th just like I quit playing 6th.

Drop pods look good against Tau (I guess), but gak against a lot of other lists I see fairly often. No one is fooled by the wall of pods, as they have been fighting drop pods since 5th. No one uses a Papa Calgar list where I play, so maybe the UM are just better at it than BA.

NauticalKendall wrote:
Sounds like the riptide was actually tying up the bikers rather than the other way around..

The bikers cost less; and the Riptide isn't optimizing itself in combat against them; even if they were comparatively costed.

 The Shrike wrote:

NauticalKendall wrote:
Sounds like the riptide was actually tying up the bikers rather than the other way around..

The bikers cost less; and the Riptide isn't optimizing itself in combat against them; even if they were comparatively costed.

I still don't understand why they ended up in HTH.

 The Shrike wrote:

NauticalKendall wrote:
Sounds like the riptide was actually tying up the bikers rather than the other way around..

The bikers cost less; and the Riptide isn't optimizing itself in combat against them; even if they were comparatively costed.

Riptide easily kills a bike a turn in combat. Not to mention they illegally assaulted him lol.

Not so much deliberately cheating as "hadn't played in 3 years" I think. The guy's not a dedicated 40k player.

But, hey it worked. It's better they can't charge anyway, what do you want, a point and click solution? You can get about 4 units of scout bikes for the cost of a Riptide. I'm sure you can find some way of achieving the same effect through your actions on the table.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Not so much deliberately cheating as "hadn't played in 3 years" I think. The guy's not a dedicated 40k player.

But, hey it worked. It's better they can't charge anyway, what do you want, a point and click solution? You can get about 4 units of scout bikes for the cost of a Riptide. I'm sure you can find some way of achieving the same effect through your actions on the table.

You mean a point and click solution like the Riptide or Centstar? No, BA don't have those. And in a real game, what this guy wouldn't have worked, because his opponent would have cried foul.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 The Shrike wrote:

NauticalKendall wrote:
Sounds like the riptide was actually tying up the bikers rather than the other way around..

The bikers cost less; and the Riptide isn't optimizing itself in combat against them; even if they were comparatively costed.

Riptide easily kills a bike a turn in combat. Not to mention they illegally assaulted him lol.

2/3s of a bike a turn by my calculations.

 koooaei wrote:
You're the first to call orkanaughts cheezy.

Woah Mork or gorkanaughts are better then riptides!?

This is funny to me.

Martel, if you invested as much time into creative tactics as you do bemoaning your army's weakness and local meta, you'd probably be a world champion.

Why not open a tactics thread and ask "how can I kill Riptides as BA"? Don't you have a relic that reduces all Interceptor to snap shot? Don't you have Fast vehicles? Why not try to start piecing the pie differently?

I realize that the Riptide is incredibly inefficient in HTH. That's not up for debate. But those bikers should not have been in HTH with the Riptide, so these calculations are moot.

The one turn delay for assaults from any kind of non-standard deployment options is killer. Literally.

Think yourself lucky it's only the riptide in Tau. I hear Necrons are, as a collective, impossible to kill.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Martel, if you invested as much time into creative tactics as you do bemoaning your army's weakness and local meta, you'd probably be a world champion.

Why not open a tactics thread and ask "how can I kill Riptides as BA"? Don't you have a relic that reduces all Interceptor to snap shot? Don't you have Fast vehicles? Why not try to start piecing the pie differently?

A relic jump pack. Deep striking jump packs is suicide even with the relic. DS jump packs weren't even good in 5th.

Fast vehicles that also can't hurt the Riptide? Fast vehicles that get HPed out trivially by broadsides? THOSE fast vehicles?

The above poster is right. All the "solutions" are in an allied IoM codex. They might as well have rolled the BA into the marine codex and called it a day.

Lol, someone wanna make a "Is the Decurion fun to play against" thread?

Martel732 wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:
Not so much deliberately cheating as "hadn't played in 3 years" I think. The guy's not a dedicated 40k player.

But, hey it worked. It's better they can't charge anyway, what do you want, a point and click solution? You can get about 4 units of scout bikes for the cost of a Riptide. I'm sure you can find some way of achieving the same effect through your actions on the table.

You mean a point and click solution like the Riptide or Centstar? No, BA don't have those.

Such a thing does not exist...the best unit in the game to kill a riptide is a dreadknight. Thats why you see so much dread knight hate from tau - it's literally the only thing that ever drops their precious riptides and also Imperial knights and wraith knights. Though an imperial knight or a WK should never assault a tide if the tau has any idea how to deploy his army. DK kinda don't care about that. cause in 2 turns their threat range for assault is an astounding 54" which is ALMOST as far as a riptide can shoot you from. lol.

Boniface wrote:
Think yourself lucky it's only the riptide in Tau. I hear Necrons are, as a collective, impossible to kill.

Yeah, maybe the different style of frustration will be novel for a while. I get to keep my models (mostly), but still can't kill enough.

I think the real problem here seems to be that BA are bad.