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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/01 12:11:29
Subject: Nixon's China Policy is Obama's Iran Dream
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Most Glorious Grey Seer
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I came across an opinion piece in the Observer that asserts that Obama sees Iran as his chance to have a lasting legacy the way Nixon did when opening up China. If so, it explains why the administration is so determined to make a deal despite the clarion calls of disaster should such a deal actually happen. http://observer.com/2015/03/president-obama-must-not-complete-a-disastrous-deal-with-iran/ The Editors wrote:President Obama Must Not Complete a Disastrous Deal With Iran Forget Churchill—Obama Isn't Measuring up to Neville Chamberlain US Secretary of State John Kerry (C) waits prior to world powers representatives meeting to pin down a nuclear deal with Iran, on March 30, 2015 at the Beau Rivage Palace Hotel in Lausanne. (Photo: BRENDAN SMIALOWSKI/AFP/Getty Images) With the US on the brink of signing an agreement that will lift the crippling economic sanctions on Iran in exchange for alleged guarantees that Iran will limit its nuclear ambitions to peaceful means, the Observer urges President Obama not to place his personal hunger for a legacy issue ahead of his most solemn duty – protecting America’s national security. Barack Obama has been compared to British Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain , who concluded the ill-fated Munich Pact with Hitler in 1938. But Chamberlain acted out of a sincere belief that he was avoiding a greater evil. Chamberlain was not thinking of his place in history. He was thinking only of the Britain that he loved, a Britain that was all but disarmed, exhausted, and vulnerable. He was dealing with a nation that had been decimated by the Great War, a nation whose “best and brightest” five years earlier had declared in the infamous Oxford Oath that they would not fight for king or country, and a nation that was as materially unprepared for war as Germany was prepared to fight. Chamberlain dealt from a position of weakness, one that Hitler continually exploited in the negotiations, even by changing the time and place to make it more inconvenient for the British leader to attend them. In sharp contrast, Mr. Obama is acting out of personal aggrandizement. He believes he is replicating President Richard Nixon’s historic opening of China. For Mr. Obama, the Iranian nuclear arms deal is about his place in history. Mr. Obama is dealing from a position of strength that he refuses to use. The sanctions have hurt Iran. Falling oil prices only add to Iran’s vulnerability. Instead of using the sanctions to pursue his original promise that Iran would not get the bomb, Mr. Obama has moved the goal post. Iran would not get the bomb immediately. It would be permitted to enrich uranium well beyond the 5 percent need for generating nuclear energy and be left with a breakout capacity to create a bomb. Meanwhile, Iran is refusing surprise inspections, the hallmark of any such agreement, and has ruled its military facilities, such as the enrichment plant at Fordo, off limits to any inspections, period. Iran continues to showcase public displays of Israel being obliterated by an Iranian nuclear bomb, and even in the midst of negotiations government-orchestrated mass rallies cry out, “Death to America.” If Chamberlain possessed America’s strength and was dealing with Iran’s weakness, would he be negotiating as Mr. Obama is? Would he be more concerned about a Jew building an extra bedroom in Jerusalem than an Iranian building a bomb at Fordo? Before becoming prime minister, Chamberlain held two ministerial portfolios. He was considered a thoughtful and effective cabinet member. Upon becoming Prime Minister in 1940, Winston Churchill appointed Chamberlain to the new War Cabinet. History has debated whether Chamberlain was the reckless appeaser that he is stereotyped as or the man who dealt from a position of extreme weakness against a foe he was unprepared to go to war against and who sacrificed part of Czechoslovakia to buy Britain time to rearm. Even Churchill, who filleted Chamberlain with his famous “choice between war and dishonor and now will get both” zinger, understood that Chamberlain was acting in good faith and kept his vanquished predecessor in his War cabinet. It is unrealistic to hope that Mr. Obama could emerge as a modern Churchill in this chaotic and dangerous chapter in human history. But even Chamberlain would not have made the disastrous agreement that Mr. Obama seems so eager to conclude. Mr. Obama is an amateur who is enthralled with the sound of his own voice and is incapable of coming to grips with the consequences of his actions. He is surrounded by sycophants, second-rate intellectuals, and a media that remains compliant and uncritical in the face of repeated foreign policy disasters. As country after country in the world’s most dangerous region fall into chaos—Libya and Yemen are essentially anarchic states, even as Syria and Iraq continue to devolve—Mr. Obama puzzlingly focuses much of his attention and rhetoric on Israel, childishly refusing to accept the mandate its people have given their prime minister in an election that, by the way, added three additional seats to the country’s Arab minority. We can debate whether we should ever have been in Iraq, but Mr. Obama’s hasty withdrawal to make good on a campaign promise created the power vacuum filled by the Islamic State. In Syria, he vacillated over the enforcement of red lines and whom to arm. There too, he created a vacuum filled by the Islamic State. In Egypt, he withdrew support for President Hosni Mubarack, who for thirty years kept the peace with Israel and turned Egypt into a stable and reliable ally. Obama permitted the tyrannical Muslim Brotherhood to come to power failing to realize that one election, one time, resulting in a tyranny is not democracy. In Libya, President Muammar al-Gaddafi, once an international pariah, had reversed course as far back as 1999 and attempted to reenter the community of nations, even giving up his nuclear program. Libya was a stable dictatorship that was willing to engage in economic and diplomatic relations with the West. Its revolutionary ambitions of pan-Arabism and its expansionist tendencies had abated. When revolutionary forces rose up against Gaddafi, Mr. Obama not only verbally supported the revolutionaries, he sent NATO war planes to assist them. Gaddafi was defeated and murdered. Libya is now in chaos and another hot house for Islamic extremism. he deal with Iran follows in the wake of these foreign policy disasters. Among our traditional Sunni allies in the region, it is seen as a betrayal not simply because it advances Iran’s nuclear ambitions but also because it encourages Iran’s support for the Houthi Shiite militia in Yemen and Iran’s adventurism in Iraq. The lifting of sanctions means more resources for Iran to transfer to its meddlesome proxies like Lebanon’s Hezbollah, the assassin of Lebanon’s democratic aspirations. The nuclear deal gives Iran an unacceptable nuclear umbrella that will compel the Gulf State Sunnis to launch their own nuclear programs, setting off a disastrous proliferation in the region. The Iran deal is a march toward the nuclear abyss hand-in-hand with the world’s largest exporter of terrorism– the patron of Hezbollah, Hamas, Houthi militias in Yemen, Shiite militias in Iraq, and operatives killing Jews in Argentina. Regrettably, a naïve, petulant President Obama sees this as a crowning part of his legacy and nothing will stand in his way. Until Mr. Obama released a 1987 classified report detailing Israel’s nuclear program, we believed that the president’s Iranian policy was motivated by a different vision of America’s interests in the Middle East. Admittedly, it is one that would be difficult to dissect, let alone to explain. But Mr. Obama’s latest petulant act shows that this is not a president motivated by policy but by personal feelings. He sacrificed the security of our close ally and its seven million citizens because he felt slighted. How else does one explain that Israel’s nuclear program is made public while the report’s description of the programs of our NATO partners is redacted? We might call for Mr. Obama to find his inner Churchill and walk away from this tragedy, but we would be happy if he would simply find the character of the “real” Neville Chamberlain, who when dealing from a position of America’s strength would never have signed a deal with the devil. Ultimately, this deal will come back to haunt Mr. Obama’s legacy far more than Munich haunted Chamberlain’s.
Pretty strong words. Are the editors wrong?
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/04/01 12:13:24
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/01 12:24:41
Subject: Nixon's China Policy is Obama's Iran Dream
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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No you're not. The administration has effectively said it as well. The problem is, Obama is no Nixon. To bring them to the table Nixon started Linebacker and threatened to go Dr. Strangelove on them (and China). When things got stuck Linebacker restarted and they wheeled out the crazy german plan again. Obama only uses the stick on republicans.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/01 12:25:00
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/01 12:35:59
Subject: Re:Nixon's China Policy is Obama's Iran Dream
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Courageous Grand Master
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Yes, the editors are wrong. So wrong, I don't even know where to begin!
"a Britain that was all but disarmed, exhausted, and vulnerable. He was dealing with a nation that had been decimated by the Great War, a nation whose “best and brightest” five years earlier had declared in the infamous Oxford Oath that they would not fight for king or country, and a nation that was as materially unprepared for war as Germany was prepared to fight. "
Slightly OT, but that is one of the biggest historical myths you'll ever read - that Britain was weak during the 1930s. It's been shot down in flames so many times it's unbelievable. I may start a new topic on this, but that is a load of bull. During the 1930s, Britain made more guns than the USA. Yes, the USA, had the world's largest navy, spent billions on upgrading Singapore's defences, and spent more on the RAF than the Germans did on the Luftwaffe. Britain controlled the Middle east through the oil fields, dominated South America through its vast commercial interests, and had all the war materials it needed suck as rubber, tin, and manganese, coming from South east Asia.
There was only one country that could challenge the UK, and it certainly wasn't Germany. It starts with a U and ends in an A
"History has debated whether Chamberlain was the reckless appeaser that he is stereotyped as or the man who dealt from a position of extreme weakness against a foe he was unprepared to go to war against and who sacrificed part of Czechoslovakia to buy Britain time to rearm. Even Churchill, who filleted Chamberlain with his famous “choice between war and dishonor and now will get both” zinger, understood that Chamberlain was acting in good faith and kept his vanquished predecessor in his War cabinet."
More bull. Chamberlain acted as he did, because UK public opinion was against another war, not because the UK was weak. There is a difference between a strong country reluctant to fight, and a weak country reluctant to fight. Bear in mind, it had been only 22 years since the battle of the somme.
"and a media that remains compliant and uncritical in the face of repeated foreign policy disasters."
Whoever wrote this has obviously never heard of Fox News or Charles Krauthammer
"We can debate whether we should ever have been in Iraq, but Mr. Obama’s hasty withdrawal to make good on a campaign promise created the power vacuum filled by the Islamic State. In Syria, he vacillated over the enforcement of red lines and whom to arm. There too, he created a vacuum filled by the Islamic State."
Getting rid of Saddam created the power vacuum that was filled by Iranians as well. ISIL are just another actor.
"Obama permitted the tyrannical Muslim Brotherhood to come to power failing to realize that one election, one time, resulting in a tyranny is not democracy."
I'm pretty sure the Egyptian people voted in the Muslim Brotherhood and I'm pretty sure the new Egyptian dictator is not running a democracy either.
"In Libya, President Muammar al-Gaddafi, once an international pariah, had reversed course as far back as 1999 and attempted to reenter the community of nations, even giving up his nuclear program. Libya was a stable dictatorship that was willing to engage in economic and diplomatic relations with the West. Its revolutionary ambitions of pan-Arabism and its expansionist tendencies had abated. When revolutionary forces rose up against Gaddafi, Mr. Obama not only verbally supported the revolutionaries, he sent NATO war planes to assist them. Gaddafi was defeated and murdered. Libya is now in chaos and another hot house for Islamic extremism."
It was David Cameron and that small French guy who pushed for action in Libya, not BHO.
In all, this is total nonsense from the Observer, which doesn't surprise me in the slightest, and they have the nerve to charge £1.50 for this newspaper!
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/01 12:37:44
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/01 12:44:58
Subject: Nixon's China Policy is Obama's Iran Dream
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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es, the editors are wrong. So wrong, I don't even know where to begin!
"a Britain that was all but disarmed, exhausted, and vulnerable. He was dealing with a nation that had been decimated by the Great War, a nation whose “best and brightest” five years earlier had declared in the infamous Oxford Oath that they would not fight for king or country, and a nation that was as materially unprepared for war as Germany was prepared to fight. "
Slightly OT, but that is one of the biggest historical myths you'll ever read - that Britain was weak during the 1930s. It's been shot down in flames so many times it's unbelievable. I may start a new topic on this, but that is a load of bull. During the 1930s, Britain made more guns than the USA. Yes, the USA, had the world's largest navy, spent billions on upgrading Singapore's defences, and spent more on the RAF than the Germans did on the Luftwaffe. Britain controlled the Middle east through the oil fields, dominated South America through its vast commercial interests, and had all the war materials it needed suck as rubber, tin, and manganese, coming from South east Asia.
There was only one country that could challenge the UK, and it certainly wasn't Germany. It starts with a U and ends in an A
"History has debated whether Chamberlain was the reckless appeaser that he is stereotyped as or the man who dealt from a position of extreme weakness against a foe he was unprepared to go to war against and who sacrificed part of Czechoslovakia to buy Britain time to rearm. Even Churchill, who filleted Chamberlain with his famous “choice between war and dishonor and now will get both” zinger, understood that Chamberlain was acting in good faith and kept his vanquished predecessor in his War cabinet."
More bull. Chamberlain acted as he did, because UK public opinion was against another war, not because the UK was weak. There is a difference between a strong country reluctant to fight, and a weak country reluctant to fight. Bear in mind, it had been only 22 years since the battle of the somme.
Agreed to a great extent. IIRC but Britain was much less impacted by the Depression than either Germany or the US of Texas. And of course sentiment was against the war. No reason for it to be otherwise. Germany was a minimal direct threat to Britain. Arguably Germany was a minimal direct threat to France as well, if both had steered clear of a treaty with Poland. But that’s another thread.
"and a media that remains compliant and uncritical in the face of repeated foreign policy disasters."
Whoever wrote this has obviously never heard of Fox News or Charles Krauthammer
"We can debate whether we should ever have been in Iraq, but Mr. Obama’s hasty withdrawal to make good on a campaign promise created the power vacuum filled by the Islamic State. In Syria, he vacillated over the enforcement of red lines and whom to arm. There too, he created a vacuum filled by the Islamic State."
Getting rid of Saddam created the power vacuum that was filled by Iranians as well. ISIL are just another actor.
Agreed. Argument One on why the USA should leave dictatorships alone.
"Obama permitted the tyrannical Muslim Brotherhood to come to power failing to realize that one election, one time, resulting in a tyranny is not democracy."
I'm pretty sure the Egyptian people voted in the Muslim Brotherhood and I'm pretty sure the new Egyptian dictator is not running a democracy either.
Agreed. Argument Two on why the USA should leave dictatorships alone.
"In Libya, President Muammar al-Gaddafi, once an international pariah, had reversed course as far back as 1999 and attempted to reenter the community of nations, even giving up his nuclear program. Libya was a stable dictatorship that was willing to engage in economic and diplomatic relations with the West. Its revolutionary ambitions of pan-Arabism and its expansionist tendencies had abated. When revolutionary forces rose up against Gaddafi, Mr. Obama not only verbally supported the revolutionaries, he sent NATO war planes to assist them. Gaddafi was defeated and murdered. Libya is now in chaos and another hot house for Islamic extremism."
It was David Cameron and that small French guy who pushed for action in Libya, not BHO.
In all, this is total nonsense from the Observer, which doesn't surprise me in the slightest, and they have the nerve to charge £1.50 for this newspaper!
Agreed. Argument Three on why the USA should leave dictatorships alone.
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-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/01 12:49:11
Subject: Nixon's China Policy is Obama's Iran Dream
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Blood Angel Captain Wracked with Visions
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I would like to think that this is part of a well coordinated effort to sideline Russia in the Middle East, and to prevent the area becoming a stage for proxy wars. By bringing Iran into the fold America isolates Assad and his regime further.
The issue with this plan though is balancing our developing relationship with Iran against our existing relationships with our allies in the region.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/01 12:56:21
Subject: Re:Nixon's China Policy is Obama's Iran Dream
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Most Glorious Grey Seer
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I was referring to their view on Obama's pursuit of this treaty, but if their history is so far off can their view on the negotiations far behind?
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/04/01 12:56:53
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/01 12:59:33
Subject: Nixon's China Policy is Obama's Iran Dream
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Courageous Grand Master
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Dreadclaw69 wrote:I would like to think that this is part of a well coordinated effort to sideline Russia in the Middle East, and to prevent the area becoming a stage for proxy wars. By bringing Iran into the fold America isolates Assad and his regime further.
The issue with this plan though is balancing our developing relationship with Iran against our existing relationships with our allies in the region.
Yeah, but reaching out to Iran will seriously annoy the Saudis, and as others have said, will push the Saudis towards getting their own bomb, and thus kick off another arms race.
Say what you want about the cold war, but at least there was an understanding between the USA and the Soviets over nuclear weapons.
Unstable Middle Eastern regimes with nuclear weapons = total F*****G disaster!!  Apologies to the mods, but it needed saying. Automatically Appended Next Post: Breotan wrote:
I was referring to their view on Obama's pursuit of this treaty, but if their history is so far off can their view on the negotiations far behind?
I don't know how much experience you have with UK newspapers, but the Observer is infamous for running this type of 'piece.'
Plus, the Observer cheered on Obama when he pulled troops out of Iraq, backed strikes against Libya, and pushed for action in Syria, so for them to criticise Obama over Iran and his previous decisions regarding the ME, is pretty hypocritical.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/01 13:02:23
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/01 13:04:06
Subject: Nixon's China Policy is Obama's Iran Dream
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Blood Angel Captain Wracked with Visions
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Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:Yeah, but reaching out to Iran will seriously annoy the Saudis, and as others have said, will push the Saudis towards getting their own bomb, and thus kick off another arms race.
Say what you want about the cold war, but at least there was an understanding between the USA and the Soviets over nuclear weapons.
Unstable Middle Eastern regimes with nuclear weapons = total F*****G disaster!!  Apologies to the mods, but it needed saying.
I don't doubt that this has the very real potential for a Middle East arms race, especially with the Saudis having a reasonable relationship with Pakistan
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/01 15:32:30
Subject: Nixon's China Policy is Obama's Iran Dream
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Pragmatic Primus Commanding Cult Forces
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So, why is this deal with Iran such a problem? And why does the US think Iran is so evil, when compared to other Middle-Eastern nations such as Saudi Arabia, Iran is actually pretty progressive and peaceful? They hate Israel and the US, but which Arab muslim nation doesn't? And considering the extremely agressive foreign policy of Israel and the US, I can't blame them.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/01 15:43:03
Subject: Nixon's China Policy is Obama's Iran Dream
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Never Forget Isstvan!
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Iron_Captain wrote:So, why is this deal with Iran such a problem? And why does the US think Iran is so evil, when compared to other Middle-Eastern nations such as Saudi Arabia, Iran is actually pretty progressive and peaceful? They hate Israel and the US, but which Arab muslim nation doesn't? And considering the extremely agressive foreign policy of Israel and the US, I can't blame them.
Multiple threats to destroy israel, funding hezbollah, at one time hamas, denial the holocaust and calling america the great satan etc. I would not call them peaceful, you could call them progressive but anything seems like that when compared to wahhabism.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/01 15:49:33
Subject: Nixon's China Policy is Obama's Iran Dream
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Courageous Grand Master
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Iron_Captain wrote:So, why is this deal with Iran such a problem? And why does the US think Iran is so evil, when compared to other Middle-Eastern nations such as Saudi Arabia, Iran is actually pretty progressive and peaceful? They hate Israel and the US, but which Arab muslim nation doesn't? And considering the extremely agressive foreign policy of Israel and the US, I can't blame them.
Iran humiliated the USA in the 1970s. The USA have not forgotten, nor will they forgive, in my view.
As for your other point, Jordan doesn't hate the USA, UAE, doesn't hate the USA, Kuwait doesn't hate the USA, and I'm pretty sure one or two other nations in the region aren't all that bothered by the USA.
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"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/01 16:00:53
Subject: Nixon's China Policy is Obama's Iran Dream
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Shas'o Commanding the Hunter Kadre
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Considering how Iran has launched their own satellites, one of which circles over the United States every 90 minutes, and that Iran has such a large nuclear program, they could have build many bombs by now. It would seem like they instead are purely using it as a power resource. Let's not forget that Iran came to the discussions willingly, their goal to reduce/remove sanctions.
With so few friends in that region of the world, it's about time relations improved. Please leave the political bickering to issues that won't have international ramifications (won't happen though, the AIIC that China has many US allies joining was created because of political delays by the US house and senate, so we are already being affected by politicians that aren't working for the overall good of the nation.)
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/01 16:01:03
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/01 16:00:56
Subject: Nixon's China Policy is Obama's Iran Dream
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Blood Angel Captain Wracked with Visions
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Ustrello wrote:Multiple threats to destroy israel, funding hezbollah, at one time hamas, denial the holocaust and calling america the great satan etc. I would not call them peaceful, you could call them progressive but anything seems like that when compared to wahhabism.
That and providing arms and training to enemy combatants in Iraq and Afghanistan, which lead to the deaths of US service personnel
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/01 16:20:41
Subject: Nixon's China Policy is Obama's Iran Dream
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Courageous Grand Master
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Dreadclaw69 wrote: Ustrello wrote:Multiple threats to destroy israel, funding hezbollah, at one time hamas, denial the holocaust and calling america the great satan etc. I would not call them peaceful, you could call them progressive but anything seems like that when compared to wahhabism.
That and providing arms and training to enemy combatants in Iraq and Afghanistan, which lead to the deaths of US service personnel
The Iraq and Afghanistan argument doesn't wash with me, because we know that Pakistan, an 'ally' of the USA, was helping the Taliban left, right and centre, and yet, the USA did nothing about it.
I remain convinced to this day that elements of Pakistani intelligence knew where Bin laden was hiding, and said nothing to the Americans.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/01 16:21:56
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/01 16:30:07
Subject: Re:Nixon's China Policy is Obama's Iran Dream
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Hallowed Canoness
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My two cents: I do not care if the Iranian government gets an atomic bomb. They are not nice, but they are reasonably sensible and competent, else the country would be a wreck, not a regional power. I mean, neighboring Pakistan's government is not even able to control their whole country, and yet those guys have the bomb! They let their politicians be killed by irate Islamist mobs! Iran is a model of stability, sense, progress and enlightenment compared to Pakistan. (Okay, that may be a bit of hyperbole)
However, I really care of some of the embargo is lift, because it actually hurt the population, people that already have to suffer from the lack of democracy and human rights, and from the corruption. And it hurts them a lot.
So, hurray for Obama or something.
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"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/01 16:31:15
Subject: Nixon's China Policy is Obama's Iran Dream
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Pragmatic Primus Commanding Cult Forces
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Dreadclaw69 wrote: Ustrello wrote:Multiple threats to destroy israel, funding hezbollah, at one time hamas, denial the holocaust and calling america the great satan etc. I would not call them peaceful, you could call them progressive but anything seems like that when compared to wahhabism.
That and providing arms and training to enemy combatants in Iraq and Afghanistan, which lead to the deaths of US service personnel
Yes, but the US itself has done that as well. Also, Saudi Arabia has a worse human rights record and has funded groups like Al Qaeda, Al Nusra and ISIS, all of which are quite a bit worse than Hezbollah. The only reason the Saudis are not all that hostile to Israel is that both are US allies. There is no love for Israel in Saudi Arabia, they still have a boycot ongoing and do not even recognise Israel as a state.
And as for Iran having called the US the great Satan, is the US now getting angry over being called mean names? The US called Iran, 'the Axis of Evil', so I think that is square now. And when compared to the US and Israel, Iran is very peaceful. When is the last time Iran invaded another country and bombed the gak out of it?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/01 17:02:23
Subject: Nixon's China Policy is Obama's Iran Dream
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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Iron_Captain wrote:So, why is this deal with Iran such a problem? And why does the US think Iran is so evil, when compared to other Middle-Eastern nations such as Saudi Arabia, Iran is actually pretty progressive and peaceful? They hate Israel and the US, but which Arab muslim nation doesn't? And considering the extremely agressive foreign policy of Israel and the US, I can't blame them.
Why do you think we think the other nations aren't evil?
The other ones aren't trying to get the bomb at the same time they are making official statements about wiping out other countries.
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-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/01 17:21:18
Subject: Re:Nixon's China Policy is Obama's Iran Dream
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[DCM]
The Main Man
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Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
"We can debate whether we should ever have been in Iraq, but Mr. Obama’s hasty withdrawal to make good on a campaign promise created the power vacuum filled by the Islamic State. In Syria, he vacillated over the enforcement of red lines and whom to arm. There too, he created a vacuum filled by the Islamic State."
Getting rid of Saddam created the power vacuum that was filled by Iranians as well. ISIL are just another actor.
Getting rid of Saddam created the power vacuum. The USA filled it as long as we were there, and Obama chose to vacate it, which helped set conditions for ISIS' offensive in Iraq.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/01 17:22:36
Subject: Nixon's China Policy is Obama's Iran Dream
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Frazzled wrote:The other ones aren't trying to get the bomb at the same time they are making official statements about wiping out other countries.
That's a bit tricky, ain't it? How can you negotiate anything with a country that you assume is serious when it threats dropping a nuclear charge on a neighbour?
I mean, surely the US knows those threats to be complete vapour if it even sits down for the appetizers, much less the main course?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/01 17:40:00
Subject: Re:Nixon's China Policy is Obama's Iran Dream
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Last Remaining Whole C'Tan
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Hordini wrote:Getting rid of Saddam created the power vacuum. The USA filled it as long as we were there, and Obama chose to vacate it, which helped set conditions for ISIS' offensive in Iraq.
Funny, I thought we left because Iraq refused to sign a SOFA.
Should we have become a hostile occupying force instead?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/01 17:43:17
lord_blackfang wrote:Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote:The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/01 17:46:39
Subject: Nixon's China Policy is Obama's Iran Dream
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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I mean, surely the US knows those threats to be complete vapour if it even sits down for the appetizers, much less the main course?
What? This is a saying I've not heard before.
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-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/01 18:04:39
Subject: Nixon's China Policy is Obama's Iran Dream
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Blood Angel Captain Wracked with Visions
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Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:The Iraq and Afghanistan argument doesn't wash with me, because we know that Pakistan, an 'ally' of the USA, was helping the Taliban left, right and centre, and yet, the USA did nothing about it.
I remain convinced to this day that elements of Pakistani intelligence knew where Bin laden was hiding, and said nothing to the Americans.
I believe that too. But the official line was always that rogue elements of Pakistani intelligence were aiding and abetting the Taliban. When it's the Revolutionary Guard doing it that is another matter
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/01 18:08:28
Subject: Re:Nixon's China Policy is Obama's Iran Dream
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5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)
Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!
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Ouze wrote: Hordini wrote:Getting rid of Saddam created the power vacuum. The USA filled it as long as we were there, and Obama chose to vacate it, which helped set conditions for ISIS' offensive in Iraq.
Funny, I thought we left because Iraq refused to sign a SOFA.
Should we have become a hostile occupying force instead?
Wasn't there an Iraqi election going on that time? (tried to google-fu... coming up blanks).
If so, they the Iraqi voters share this burden... no?
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Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/01 18:09:37
Subject: Re:Nixon's China Policy is Obama's Iran Dream
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[DCM]
The Main Man
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Ouze wrote: Hordini wrote:Getting rid of Saddam created the power vacuum. The USA filled it as long as we were there, and Obama chose to vacate it, which helped set conditions for ISIS' offensive in Iraq.
Funny, I thought we left because Iraq refused to sign a SOFA.
Should we have become a hostile occupying force instead?
That's certainly a factor, but it didn't seem like Obama was pushing particularly hard to come to a SOFA agreement. He seemed more than happy to withdraw as quickly as possible.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/01 18:14:20
Subject: Re:Nixon's China Policy is Obama's Iran Dream
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Last Remaining Whole C'Tan
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I think you're moving the goalposts a bit now. You're saying it was Obama's fault that the Iraqi's refused to sign a new SOFA, despite a year of negotiating, because "he didn't try very hard"?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/01 18:14:34
lord_blackfang wrote:Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote:The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/01 18:17:42
Subject: Re:Nixon's China Policy is Obama's Iran Dream
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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Ouze wrote:I think you're moving the goalposts a bit now. You're saying it was Obama's fault that the Iraqi's refused to sign a new SOFA, despite a year of negotiating, because "he didn't try very hard"?
For the record Ouze I think thats a blue whale of a BS argument. They didn't want us there. We should have left, did leave, and should stay gone.
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-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/01 18:20:17
Subject: Re:Nixon's China Policy is Obama's Iran Dream
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Last Remaining Whole C'Tan
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Also - now we're getting into the realm of speculation, obviously - I think what's happening now would have happened anyway regardless of how long we stayed. Ultimately the country is very divided and unless you get someone running it like Saddam Hussein did, those underlying faults will eventually rupture. Just my opinion, again.
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lord_blackfang wrote:Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote:The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/01 18:31:30
Subject: Re:Nixon's China Policy is Obama's Iran Dream
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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Ouze wrote:Also - now we're getting into the realm of speculation, obviously - I think what's happening now would have happened anyway regardless of how long we stayed. Ultimately the country is very divided and unless you get someone running it like Saddam Hussein did, those underlying faults will eventually rupture. Just my opinion, again.
Again we're in agreement. I'm scared. someone hold me, and get me some bourbon!
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-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/01 18:32:31
Subject: Re:Nixon's China Policy is Obama's Iran Dream
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5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)
Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!
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Frazzled wrote: Ouze wrote:Also - now we're getting into the realm of speculation, obviously - I think what's happening now would have happened anyway regardless of how long we stayed. Ultimately the country is very divided and unless you get someone running it like Saddam Hussein did, those underlying faults will eventually rupture. Just my opinion, again.
Again we're in agreement. I'm scared. someone hold me, and get me some bourbon!
Ouze will provide...
Somone bring the queso!
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Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/01 18:33:09
Subject: Nixon's China Policy is Obama's Iran Dream
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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No one can party like zombie Nixon can party. Lets do this.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/01 18:34:35
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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