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Made in gb
Courageous Grand Master




-

 Frazzled wrote:
 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Spetulhu wrote:
Don't forget one thing about that crazy previous Irani president - he had absolutely zero power to actually do anything. Their president ranks below the Ayathollah and the religious council, and anything he tries to do they can shoot down if they don't like it. He was just a convenient scapegoat, making idiotic statements and shouting threats so the people didn't think too much about what's wrong at home.

The new president is negotiating because the real leaders allow it.


I think it's more likely the Iranians came to the table because the sanctions were biting hard. Which makes it all the more stranger why they eased up on them...

Anyway, is this a historic deal? Are Israel correct to say that this threatens their survival?

I'd bet good money Israel hits them within 12 months and SA and Egypt start their own programs within two years. With active centrifuges still operating? Come on this is the Chamberlain agreement of our time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 dogma wrote:
 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

A cynic could say that the point of sanctions is to bring down a regime, which could have happened with Iran if the pressure was applied.


When have sanctions brought down a regime?

South Africa.


I sincerely hope you're wrong about dark days to come in the Middle East, but my head says you may be right...

To paraphrase Benjamin Franklin, In this world nothing can be said to be certain, except death, taxes, and trouble in the Middle East...

"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd 
   
Made in fr
Hallowed Canoness





 whembly wrote:
Dunno man... a fully armed and operational nuclear Iran is terrifying.

No, it is not. We have a fully armed and operational nuclear Pakistan already, and this is ten times more frightening, yet nobody gives a damn about it.

"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1 
   
Made in gb
Courageous Grand Master




-

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Are Israel correct to say that this threatens their survival?

… no.
It will make their position a bit weaker when negotiating stuff, though.


They may come to the same conclusion and decide to send in the jets. It's long been assumed the Saudis would look the other way if Israel flew jets over Saudi Arabia to attack Iran...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 whembly wrote:
 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Are Israel correct to say that this threatens their survival?

… no.
It will make their position a bit weaker when negotiating stuff, though.

Dunno man... a fully armed and operational nuclear Iran is terrifying.


I have to agree with Hybrid. Pakistan seems way more likelier than Iran to push the red button, especially if it continues to slide.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/03 14:42:22


"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd 
   
Made in fr
Hallowed Canoness





They can. Either they will destroy the nuclear plants, or their jets will be destroyed by anti-aircraft weaponry. Anyway, this would cause lots of troubles in the region, but I still think it would just mean a big intensification in the war by proxy, rather than a straight-out war.

"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

One could argue Israel should just go for broke.

Who's going to help Iran? Its now in a sunni shia war.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
 whembly wrote:
Dunno man... a fully armed and operational nuclear Iran is terrifying.

No, it is not. We have a fully armed and operational nuclear Pakistan already, and this is ten times more frightening, yet nobody gives a damn about it.

Disagree... Pakistan hate India... that's what we'd worry about. Good thing India has nuke too and MADD is in play.

Iran is Mr. "I want to wipe Israel off the map and destroy anyone else we hate" character.

Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!


 
   
Made in fr
Hallowed Canoness





 whembly wrote:
Disagree... Pakistan hate India... that's what we'd worry about. Good thing India has nuke too and MADD is in play.

Pakistan hates India. Iran pretends very hard to hate Israel. Even if we believe them (and I do not, actually), how is that different? Israel has nuke too!

"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

Pakistan is not run by an apocalyptic theocracy.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in gb
Courageous Grand Master




-

 Frazzled wrote:
One could argue Israel should just go for broke.

Who's going to help Iran? Its now in a sunni shia war.



That's the scary part, though, when a country feels trapped in a corner. In the 1940s, the Japanese saw American sanctions and the American fleet at Pearl as a knife to Japan's throat, and you know the rest.

If Israel feels desperate enough, God knows what could happen.

"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

^ Fraz has the right of it.

Also... oil. It's a great way to destabilize the region even more.

Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!


 
   
Made in gb
Courageous Grand Master




-

 whembly wrote:
 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
 whembly wrote:
Dunno man... a fully armed and operational nuclear Iran is terrifying.

No, it is not. We have a fully armed and operational nuclear Pakistan already, and this is ten times more frightening, yet nobody gives a damn about it.

Disagree... Pakistan hate India... that's what we'd worry about. Good thing India has nuke too and MADD is in play.

Iran is Mr. "I want to wipe Israel off the map and destroy anyone else we hate" character.


Yeah, true, but you forget Pakistan went rogue not long ago. They were supposed to be an 'ally' of the USA, but they helped the Taliban, and kept quiet over Bin Laden's hiding place. You guys were smart not to tell them you were making a grab for Bin laden.

I wouldn't trust Pakistan that much, myself.

"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd 
   
Made in fr
Hallowed Canoness





 Frazzled wrote:
Pakistan is not run by an apocalyptic theocracy.

 whembly wrote:
^ Fraz has the right of it.

Apocalyptic theocracy?
How much do you know about the Iranian regime, exactly? You seem way off the mark.

"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Apocalyptic theocracy?
How much do you know about the Iranian regime, exactly? You seem way off the mark.

Iran’s theocracy adheres to Islam’s apocalyptic return of the “Mahdi”... It is believed his return will lead to Islam’s establishment as THE world’s religion. However, his return will only be triggered by global chaos. And, the mullahs are on public record saying man can be the catalyst in causing it. Is this not the ultimate purpose for which Tehran seeks nuclear weapons?

Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!


 
   
Made in us
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The Great State of Texas

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
Pakistan is not run by an apocalyptic theocracy.

 whembly wrote:
^ Fraz has the right of it.

Apocalyptic theocracy?
How much do you know about the Iranian regime, exactly? You seem way off the mark.


You're right. I mispoke. They are an enlightened democracy. They haven't stoned anyone to death in at least 48 minutes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 whembly wrote:
 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Apocalyptic theocracy?
How much do you know about the Iranian regime, exactly? You seem way off the mark.

Iran’s theocracy adheres to Islam’s apocalyptic return of the “Mahdi”... It is believed his return will lead to Islam’s establishment as THE world’s religion. However, his return will only be triggered by global chaos. And, the mullahs are on public record saying man can be the catalyst in causing it. Is this not the ultimate purpose for which Tehran seeks nuclear weapons?

Exactly. This is not Khruschev aiming for hegemonic advantage. These are guys who want to start the rapture A Bomb style.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/03 15:17:23


-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in fr
Hallowed Canoness





 whembly wrote:
Iran’s theocracy adheres to Islam’s apocalyptic return of the “Mahdi”...

You do realize that they base their politics on this belief about as much as the U.S. would base their politics in their belief for the return of the Antichrist and the apocalypse ?
How familiar are you with the actual history of the Islamic Republic, and how their institutions work?
 Frazzled wrote:
You're right. I mispoke. They are an enlightened democracy. They haven't stoned anyone to death in at least 48 minutes.

Sarcasm and hyperbole will get you nowhere. There is a whole lot of possibilities in between apocalyptic theocracy and enlightened democracy.
The Islamic Republic is a theocratic, non-democratic republic that I would trust any day over the Pakistani government. At least the IRI has control over its own territory, and both the government and the opposition are way more reasonable than a bunch of Pakistani factions.

"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1 
   
Made in fi
Confessor Of Sins




 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Apocalyptic theocracy?
How much do you know about the Iranian regime, exactly? You seem way off the mark.


How much do people know about Iran to begin with? Scary "Axis of Evil" and everything but they're weaker than the other big players in the Middle East, with a military budget surpassed by such powerhouses as Australia and Greece. There's nothing they can do against Israel except give money to others that don't like Israel. An open attack would be a disaster for Iran.
   
Made in us
Esteemed Veteran Space Marine




My secret fortress at the base of the volcano!

A nuclear armed Iran would go a long way to stabilizing the Middle East. Of course, full stability would require each of the stable nation states (Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait) gets nuclear weapons, too. That way, everybody has the bomb, and everybody is participating in Mutually Assured Destruction. Israel can't nuke Iran without Iran nuking Israel. Iran can't nuke Israel without Israel nuking Iran. Iran can't nuke SA without SA nuking Iran. Israel can't nuke Kuwait without...

You get the idea.

Frankly, nuclear weapons are powerful tools for peace, as long as *both* sides in a conflict have them. Once mutual annihilation is on the table as a consequence of war, wars start to happen less. India and Pakistan used to go to war so often you could literally set your watch by it. Then they both got the bomb. They started a shooting war that came thiiiiiiiis close to going nuclear, but then somebody pointed out that neither country would win that scenario, so the shooting stopped. Now, they may fire off a few rounds over the border to remind the otehr guy that they still hate them, but nobody's heart is in it much. They haven't gone to war in over a decade.

Once the big players in the Middle East all have nukes, war gets taken off the table as a viable tool of statecraft. Sure, you don't want them falling into the hands of certified lunatics like ISIS (which is why I specified stable countries getting nukes, rather than everybody getting them) but the stable countries in the Middle East are run by sane people. They may not like the US much, and they may be super-duper conservative, but they aren't crazy. They don't want to vanish in a ball of atomic fire.

And no, if Iran gets the bomb they will not give it to Hezbollah (or Hamas) so that a terrorist nuke can be detonated in Tel Aviv. They won't. How do I know this with 100% certainty? Because, if a nuke is ever detonated in Tel Aviv, Mossad will know who put it there (as there is a very short list of possible suspects) and Tehran (and probably two other Iranian cities) will disappear in a mushroom cloud.

And the Council of Clerics knows this. They aren't nearly stupid enough to think that giving the bomb to Hezbollah would fool Israel for a second, and they know exactly how brutal and absolute Israel's response would be. They prefer to antagonize Israel through low-key terrorist attacks (a few rockets over the border, a few tunnels under the West Bank...), rather than full-scale wars, because Israel would retaliate in a way they would not survive.

A nuclear weapon would not make Iran more aggressive. It might make Israel less aggressive, though.

Emperor's Eagles (undergoing Chapter reorganization)
Caledonian 95th (undergoing regimental reorganization)
Thousands Sons (undergoing Warband re--- wait, are any of my 40K armies playable?) 
   
Made in us
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Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

Hybrid... are you familiar with the term “taqiyya”?

It's a practice of deceiving an enemy as to its true intentions. This practice is sanctioned in the Koran to further Islam’s goals and has often been used successfully against the West. gak man, the current President admits to deceiving the West(from a smuggled vid):



So no... Tehran is far more dangerous than Pakistan.

They're a shia-ISIS as far as I'm concerned, and they both want the same thing. (ISIS=sunni Caliphate / Tehran= shia Caliphate)

Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!


 
   
Made in fr
Hallowed Canoness





squidhills wrote:
And the Council of Clerics knows this.

The problem is that you know them well enough to know they are not suicidal fools. But Whembly and Frazzled have seen too much propaganda to realize this.
 whembly wrote:
Hybrid... are you familiar with the term “taqiyya”?

Yeah, I am, actually. Certainly better than you do. It is about being allowed to pretend false stuff about your religion to avoid persecution. Tons of Shia will be forced to do it when they have to come to Saudi Arabia for their foolish pilgrimage of nonsense, lol. Serves them well for having such silly ideas.

But you did not answer me. How much do you know about the history and inner workings of the IRI?
For your interest, I know the big picture about the institutions in IRI (it is analogous with the French republic, but where the Constitutional council and the leader they elect, currently Ali Khamenei, get some extra powers that makes it completely undemocratic. For instance, the members of the equivalent of the Constitutional Council can only be religious people, and, worse, the Supreme Leader gets to put veto on candidate for the Presidential election. They also have control of the paramilitary organization called the Pasdaran. The army is much closer to the people than the Pasdaran, because they have all the young men doing military service there and because they do not share the ideological roots of the Pasdaran.
I also happen to have been in Iran. Twice. I have family there, and some of my best friends been born there and lived there for more than 20 years. In case you think that would make me too sympathetic of the IRI, none of them backs the regime, they are all apostates, I personally hates religion in general and Islam in particular (you can easily find proof for that here on Dakka), I have family in Israel too, and my grand-mother was even a German Jew.
So, I believe I have much better hindsights about the IRI, and no reason to paint them in a good light. What do you have going for you?

"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
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Made in us
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The Great State of Texas

Yeah, I am, actually. Certainly better than you do.

How do you brain boy?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/03 16:47:37


-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

Hybrid, I truly believe 95% of Iranians just want to be left the feth alone.

I'm good friends with a co-worker who's Iranian (emigrated here before the Shah fell). Lived in Shiraz and still visits there every year (he won't bring his daughter).

Granted, it's anecdotal, but he (and his family) absolutely despises the ruling class (hence, my careful distinction between Tehran vs Iran).

They don't even understand what Tehran's up to... but, alas, that's what it's like living under a theocracy.

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My secret fortress at the base of the volcano!

 Frazzled wrote:
How do you brain boy?


What?

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United States

 Frazzled wrote:

South Africa.


Gave its weapons to Israel.

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Pleasant Valley, Iowa

 Frazzled wrote:
Pakistan is not run by an apocalyptic theocracy.


Neither is Iran in anything but the most neocon of fantasies.

To put it differently, they're pretty interested in getting long term influence in several spheres and have been for a long time. You'd agree this is true, wouldn't you?

Someone planning on a school shooting ending in suicide probably doesn't spend much time beforehand setting up a 401k.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/03 21:54:50


 lord_blackfang wrote:
Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.

 Flinty wrote:
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Pleasant Valley, Iowa

Here's a (fairly long) opinion piece on why the current Iran deal is pretty solid.

(Also, as a side note, when you copy and paste an article into Dakka and it keeps all the formatting, anyone else like mmmmmmmmmmmmmm yeah that feels good)


This is an astonishingly good Iran deal
Updated by Max Fisher on April 2, 2015, 8:48 p.m. ET @Max_Fisher max@vox.com

When Aaron Stein was studying nuclear non-proliferation at Middlebury College's Monterey graduate program, the students would sometimes construct what they thought would be the best possible nuclear inspection and monitoring regimes.

Years later, Stein is now a Middle East and nuclear proliferation expert with the Royal United Services Institute. And he says the Iran nuclear framework agreement, announced on Thursday, look an awful lot like those ideal hypotheticals he'd put together in grad school.

"When I was doing my non-proliferation training at Monterey, this is the type of inspection regime that we would dream up in our heads," he said. "We would hope that this would be the way to actually verify all enrichment programs, but thought that would never be feasible.

"If these are the parameters by which the [final agreement] will be signed, then this is an excellent deal," Stein concluded.

The framework nuclear deal establishes only the very basics; negotiators will continue to meet to try to turn them into a complete, detailed agreement by the end of June. Still, the terms in the framework, unveiled to the world after a series of late- and all-night sessions, are remarkably detailed and almost astoundingly favorable to the United States.

Like many observers, I doubted in recent months that Iran and world powers would ever reach this stage; the setbacks and delays had simply been too many. Now, here we are, and the terms are far better than expected. There are a number of details still to be worked out, including one very big unresolved issue that could potentially sink everything. This is not over. But if this framework does indeed become a full nuclear deal in July, it would be a huge success and a great deal.

Iran gives up the bulk of its nuclear program in these terms

The framework deal requires Iran to surrender some crucial components of its nuclear program, in part or even in whole. Here are the highlights:

Iran will give up about 14,000 of its 20,000 centrifuges.

Iran will give up all but its most rudimentary, outdated centrifuges: its first-generation IR-1s, knockoffs of 1970s European models, are all it gets to keep. It will not be allowed to build or develop newer models.

Iran will give up 97 percent of its enriched uranium; it will hold on to only 300 kilograms of its 10,000-kilogram stockpile in its current form.

Iran will destroy or export the core of its plutonium plant at Arak, and replace it with a new core that cannot produce weapons-grade plutonium. It will ship out all spent nuclear fuel.

Iran would simply not have much of its nuclear program left after all this.

A shorthand people sometimes use to evaluate the size of Iran's nuclear program is its "breakout time." If Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei woke up tomorrow morning and decided to kick out all of the inspectors and set his entire nuclear program toward building a nuclear warhead — to "break out" to a bomb — right now it would take him two or three months. Under the terms of the framework, his program would be so much smaller that it would take him an entire year to build a single nuclear warhead.

These terms are not abject surrender. Iran is allowed to keep a small nuclear program, and it won some concessions of its own. For example, what little uranium enrichment is allowed will be done at Iran's facility at Natanz — a hardened, reinforced-concrete structure that was once used for covert enrichment and that the US had hoped to close.

Iran will also be allowed to do some research at Fordow, another hardened facility the US had wanted to close, though the research is restricted and will be barred from using fissile material. These are not big concessions, and they matter mostly for their symbolic value, but it's something.

Still, when you look at many of the specifics laid out in the framework, the hard numbers and timetables and the detailed proscriptions, those all tend to be quite favorable to the United States.

The core issue that the framework really nails


Even though the agreement is only a framework, the summary released on Thursday goes into striking detail on an issue that was always going to be among the most crucial: inspections.

Whatever number of centrifuges Iran has or doesn't have, whatever amount of uranium it's allowed to keep or forced to give up, none of it matters unless inspectors have enough authority to hold Tehran to its end of the deal — and to convince the Iranians that they could never get away with cheating. To say the US got favorable terms here would be quite an understatement; the Iranians, when it comes to inspections, practically gave away the farm.

"I would give it an A," Stein said of the framework. When I asked why: "Because of the inspections and transparency."

There are two reasons inspections are so important. The first is that super-stringent inspections are a deterrent: if the Iranians know that any deviation is going to be quickly caught, they have much less incentive to try to cheat, and much more incentive to uphold their side of the deal.

The second is that if Iran were to try a build a nuclear weapon now, it likely wouldn't use the material that's already known to the world and being monitored. Rather, the Iranians would secretly manufacture some off-the-books centrifuges, secretly mine some off-the-books uranium, and squirrel it all away to a new, secret underground facility somewhere. That would be the only way for Iran to build up enough of an arsenal such that by the time the world found out, it would be too late to do anything about it.

Really robust inspections would be the best way stop that from happening. They would prevent Iran from sneaking off centrifuges or siphoning away uranium that could be used to build an off-the-grid nuclear weapons program, without the world finding out.

The inspections issue has not gotten much political attention. When I spoke to Jeffrey Lewis, the director of the East Asia Nonproliferation Program at Middlebury's Monterey Institute of International Studies, on Tuesday before the framework was announced, he seemed worried that negotiators would not focus on it much. Rather, overwhelming political focus in Washington and Tehran on issues like Iran's number of allowed centrifuges seemed likely to push inspections from the top priorities.

Lewis suggested that a top item on his wish list would be inspections so robust that inspectors don't just get to visit enrichment sites like Natanz and Fordow, but also centrifuge factories. That, he said, "would be a big achievement."

Sure enough, come Thursday, Lewis got his wish and then some: centrifuge factory inspections is one of the terms in the framework, and it's pretty robust. For the next 20 years, inspectors would have "continuous surveillance at Iran's centrifuge rotors and bellows production and storage facilities."

"I was shocked to read that they got them to agree to let us walk around their centrifuge production facilities. That's amazing," Stein said.

It's not just centrifuge factories. Inspectors will have access to all parts of Iran's nuclear supply chain, including its uranium mines and the mills where it processes uranium ore. Inspectors will also not just monitor but be required to pre-approve all sales to Iran of nuclear-related equipment. This provision also applies to something called "dual-use" materials, which means any equipment that could be used toward a nuclear program.

"The inspections and transparency on the rotors, and the bellows, and the uranium mines is more than I ever thought would be in this agreement," Stein added.

Other favorable items buried in the terms

Stein pointed out two details in the framework that I'd missed, both of which appeared to be pretty significant concessions by the Iranians.

First, Iran has finally agreed to comply by a rule known as Modified Code 3.1 of the Subsidiary Arrangements General Part to Iran's Safeguards Agreement, shorthanded as Modified Code 3.1. It says that Iran has to notify inspectors immediately on its decision to build any new facility where it plans to do nuclear work — long before construction starts.

Iran in the past has either rejected this rule or stated that it would only notify inspectors a few months before introducing nuclear material at a facility — a "cover your ass" move in case the world caught them building a new nuclear site. Tehran's promise to comply may signal that it intends to stop building such covert facilities.

Second, Stein reads the framework as including Iran's ballistic missile program — something that critics of the deal warned would be left out. Indeed, even many supporters of the negotiations have said that it would be unlikely that American negotiators could get the deal to cover ballistic missiles or other conventional weapons programs; it would simply be asking for too much in one agreement.

"It looks like they were able to expand the scope beyond just nuclear issues," Stein said. He pointed to a line in the section that explains the UN Security Council would replace its old resolutions imposing sanctions on the nuclear program with a new resolution that incorporated the finalized deal.

The line reads, "Important restrictions on conventional arms and ballistic missiles, as well as provisions that allow for related cargo inspections and asset freezes, will also be incorporated by this new resolution."

"The way I read that is that they address the ballistic missile issue, that that will remain in the new UN Security Council resolution," Stein said. "So you're going to keep the restrictions on ballistic missiles that are already present."

The giant gaping hole in the framework terms


Still, this is just a framework deal on the basic terms; it covers a lot, but not everything. And there is one really important topic that is referenced only vaguely: how and when the world will lift its economic sanctions on Iran.

This has been a major sticking point throughout negotiations. The Iranians demand that all sanctions be lifted right away; their country needs a functioning economy, they say, and if they're complying with all of the restrictions as of day one then they shouldn't have to endure crippling sanctions on day two. But the US and others worry, with good reason, that if they lift all sanctions immediately then Iran will have far less incentive to follow through on its commitments, as it would be very difficult to re-impose those sanctions. And Iran has cheated on such agreements before.

This is a really difficult issue; each side has to trust, to some degree, that the other side will uphold its end of the deal. And someone has to go first. After decades of enmity, that's hard.

The terms in the framework do not come near solving this issue. Iran and the world powers, apparently failing to find a solution, have largely punted.

"I read the fact sheet as confirming that they are still far apart on scheduling sanctions relief," Lewis said in an email. "Still a very large devil — a Great Satan if you will — in the details."

What the terms do say is that the US, Europe, and UN Security Council will remove their sanctions after Iran fulfills its end of the deal. But it is still very unclear how exactly that gets determined, when that happens, or whether it means the sanctions are lifted all at once or over time.

The terms do suggest that the IAEA will have "teeth," as Stein put it, in punishing Iran if it concludes that the Iranians are not upholding their commitments. And if Iran breaks its end of the bargain, the sanctions will in theory "snap back."

Russia, though, opposes putting any sort of automatic enforcement mechanism into UN Security Council sanctions. So it's not clear if "snap back" means that sanctions will automatically trigger back into place (unlikely) or if the US would have to try to corral the necessary votes to bring them back manually (very difficult).

This was always perhaps the hardest issue. It remains the hardest issue. That the negotiators could not find anything more detailed to say is concerning.

This, so far, is about the best we could ask for


"Really, it's a very strong framework," Jeffrey Lewis said when I asked him what he thought.

"As a framework it's very good," tweeted Mark Fitzpatrick, the director of the Non-Proliferation and Disarmament Program at the International Institute for Strategic Studies. He added, "A sharp critic of Iran and skeptic of the talks told me after the announcement that it seemed to be heavily tilted in favour of the West."

The Arms Control Association issued a statement saying that the "historic" agreement "promises to lead to one of the most consequential and far-reaching nuclear nonproliferation achievements in recent decades."

Everyone is very careful to note that this is a provisional framework. It could fall apart before it becomes a full, final deal. The negotiators, between now and the end-of-June deadline, could get bogged down in details like sanctions relief. It will be hard, and it could fail.

But we do have something substantial and important in this framework. The terms in the agreement are just about the best that we could hope for — even better, in some ways, than many had thought possible. The concessions from Iran are painful and many; the concessions by the US minor and few; the details surprisingly robust.

President Obama is framing the deal, somewhat defensively, as the best alternative to war. Indeed it is that. But it is also the start of what could become a substantial and long-term curb to Iran's nuclear program, a major step toward reducing the hostility between Iran and the West, and thus a potentially transformative change for the region.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
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 whembly wrote:
Granted, it's anecdotal, but he (and his family) absolutely despises the ruling class (hence, my careful distinction between Tehran vs Iran).

Tehran? Did you mean the IRI? Because as far as city foes, Tehran is certainly not that bad. Qom is.
I do not like the government either, trust me. I just know this Mahdi stuff is not how they rule the country. They may believe in it, but the same way that Bush or Obama believe in the apocalypse and the coming of the Antichrist. They have a pretty comfortable (for them) situation, and they do not want to risk it. Not for personal reasons (being in power has its advantages) and ideological reasons. An Iran turned into a nuclear wasteland would kind of ruin both.

"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
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 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
 whembly wrote:
Granted, it's anecdotal, but he (and his family) absolutely despises the ruling class (hence, my careful distinction between Tehran vs Iran).

Tehran? Did you mean the IRI? Because as far as city foes, Tehran is certainly not that bad. Qom is.
I do not like the government either, trust me. I just know this Mahdi stuff is not how they rule the country. They may believe in it, but the same way that Bush or Obama believe in the apocalypse and the coming of the Antichrist. They have a pretty comfortable (for them) situation, and they do not want to risk it. Not for personal reasons (being in power has its advantages) and ideological reasons. An Iran turned into a nuclear wasteland would kind of ruin both.

I'm just going by my Iranian co-worker says... he says Tehran to signify the ruling party.

*shrugs*

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Okay. Ask him what he thinks about Qom .

"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
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Question for the American dakka members. What's the reaction to this deal?

Will congress ratify it, or will they tell Obama to stick it where the sun don't shine?

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It's an "agreement"; so does not require ratification the way that a actual treaty would.

They can instead block elements of it, or vote for further sanctions which will scuttle the deal. That seems an unlikely outcome in my opinion; since they'd need a veto-proof majority.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
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