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I have created plenty of armies during my time. I mostly sold them off or did them as a commission. However, I have yet to create a personal army. I have attempted it several times and abandoned it half way through. Now I am trying it again, but I have once again hit the same road block. The Space Marine.
You see, I love them as a group. PA armies are my favourite to play. I enjoy the Primarchs a lot and the 30k era is my favourite in the entire Warhammer lore. I would not play any other army besides my SW and occasionally DA or SM.

My problem lies with the Space Marine as an individual. I am having trouble relating to him. I am having trouble imagining myself as one of them. I can not feel immersed. This really hurts my fluff writing ability and kills my creative spark.
The thing is, to me a SM seems like a tool. Something that the Imperium has build and now owns. They feel like machines to me. No life except war, the thing they were created for. The humanity in them has died in favour of efficiency. Can they feel any other emotions? Can they appreciate beauty? Can they be compassionate? Are they still human?
Is it still valor to stand against the horrors of darkness even if you were bred to do it? Is it still strength to dominate a superior foe if you have been artificially enhanced?
The other thing that ruins it for me is their creation and what they are. You basically take a child and take his life away in order to weaponize him (Wolves notwithstanding seeing as they recruit adults, but the point still stands). And their 're-creation' makes them something else entirely. I would even go so far as to call them abhuman.
I could go on an hour long rant about the individual Space Marine but in short, I can not connect to them. They feel alien to me, which is a bit of problem when I am trying to create a force that is basically me.

And here is why it is a problem. I love how few stand against many. I love their dedication. I love the brotherhood they build. They remind me of heroes of old. The ones that went out and slew a dragon or beat back the tides of darkness, the ones that fought against all odds and won. The old legends, I see them in the Astartes. They are strong, yet wise. They are warriors. There is a reason why I like the Fantasy Norsemen. They are those warriors, but they do it with their own strength without having to become a machine (unless already helped by the gods, but even that is something different).

Anyway, I am planning massive project, to build the 11th Legion (been inspired by the 2nd Legion project over on B&C). It would basically be my dream project. Create your own Primarch (as in building or commission an actual model of my own design), write a long epic about them. Build your very own Legion of heroes of old. But, I can not be at peace with them being augmented, weaponized tools of war. And not humans. Not the heroes that fought with nought but their own strength and will. But tools of war, bred to perform those things, rather than choose to do it.
An alternate way would to be create a human army that relies on minor modification, 'herbs' and exo-skeletons. While this kills the 'hero' vibe a bit, it would still be an awesome force without having me worry about the SM. But I would not be able to link it to the Primarchs and the 30k era all that well, and that pains me.

I know that I rambled a bit, but it is pretty tough to put it into words. Still, I hope you can help me.

Cheers

The issue is that Space Marines are utterly inhuman. To the point where Tau and Eldar, even as inscrutable aliens, make more empathetic characters. The Eldar especially fit a large portion of the bill. They use powered armor, fight against a numerically superior foe almost every time, are replete with an extensive mythology, and have an arguably noble cause. They appreciate beauty, art, philosophy, and life. They often have lives outside of their martial duties and a home-front with loved ones to protect.

I think that part of the grim-dark setting is humanity's inhumanity. Human beings are awful and wretched creatures to the point where the alien looks like an attractive alternative.

That said, the more humane Space Marine chapters are the Salamanders and (arguably) the Space Wolves. Both are good places to find some inspiration.

Humanize a Space Marine all you want.

Then comes the mindwipe, and he goes back to being Dour and Stern.

Immersturm wrote:


My problem lies with the Space Marine as an individual. I am having trouble relating to him. I am having trouble imagining myself as one of them.

- go to the gym 6 hours a day 7 days a week
- do exzessive Training with diffrent Kind of firearms for 5 hours a day
- go Beat up groups of roid raging bodybuilders who are wielding hammers knives and small firearms before you allow yourself to Begin with training
- join a military Force like the German KSK, the American Navy seals or British SAS
-Stay there for Several years and Fake part in at least 400 battles
- get mentaly conditioned by military experts
- learn everything about the wars from past times from the Last 1000 years
- exercise close Combat 9 hours a day
- in the Last 4 hours pray to god, maybe sleep 30 minutes
-when someone says your god doesnt exist kill him without further Diskussion



Congratulations

You now feel like a space marine

I'm gonna be honest with you, I don't think you've read enough fluff.

You think Space Marines don't recognize beauty or are incapable of creating it? The Blood angels actually spend more time on the artistry and craftsmanship of their wargear than most, creating "veritable works of art" using their many many long years of life to hone their abilities. (Page 22 of their current codex talks about their gear, and earlier it talks about the craftsman of Baal whom many are descended from before Baal got glassed in an ancient war)

The Ultramarines didn't create the beauty of Ultramar themselves, and yet their romanesque spralling cities and fortresses were inspired and built in a definite stylized form reminiscent of the styles that the chapter itself surrounds itself with, and I'm sure the chapter itself would have had a lot of say and influence in the constructions on their worlds.

Even the Dark Angels can recognize artistry, using the very features of their gothic cathedral monasteries as form for their arms and armor.

There are plenty of examples out there, the many different chapters often recognizing different versions of beauty or art. I think it likely that a space marine is fully capable of realizing emotion as well.

The Space Wolves would not have been moved to anger at the Grey Knights in the aftermath of Armageddon had they not felt something about the GK and Inquisition decision to sterilize the population. In many of the novels, they're all perfectly capable of feeling anger, so I don't think other emotions are inherently off the table. Every chapter is different, and react differently to different situations, not unlike people of any other stripe. Some will uncaring and duty bound sure, but not all, and it still by no means precludes other feelings.

All that being said however, I do think they've been changed substantially from a normal human being. Certain emotions absolutely must be supressed or at least overcome in some way even if recognized, fear being one of them. But I tend to think if any compassion were lacking in all the marines, then they'd care far less for their fellows, their chapter, the people of the imperium and they'd be more like necrons.

I prefer to think of them as strong duty bound warriors who have had their major emotions tamped down so that they can do their work, but each is as different as normal human beings in scope, just on another level that we normal humans don't readily identify with. Halo and many other works of science fiction like Heinleins classic, Starship Troopers all tackle the ways a super soldier could be represented well from the points of view of normal people turned soldier all the way to children taken and tampered with. Heck watch the movie Soldier, with Kurt Russell in it. Theres a decent depiction of a future soldier basically brainwashed from childhood to be exactly what a military group wants them to be.

Hopefully some of that gives you some new ideas to write from.

The lines between Space Marines and normal humans, what differentiates them and what makes them alike and how Astartes might reflect on that (especially those more given to reflection, like Salamanders) is one of the most interesting things about Marines IMO.

You don't become a demigod of war like a Marine without getting a whole different perspective on things.

Space Marines make terrible protagonists. That's really the long and the short of it. Any book you've ever read where the Space Marines did make good protagonists was actually the author writing poor Space Marines, lol.

They're incable of personal growth or change.

Honestly, I understand your position. I don't like fluff for Space Marines. The only thing I can identify with them on is the marital tradition stuff from my own time in the US Marines. But the reality is that 90% of the stuff I did in the Marines is incompatible with Space Marines. The endless BSing and discussions about topics that would make a sensitive Tumblrista faint... Space Marines don't do that. Well except Space Wolves. But they make terrible Space Marines too, because they break all the rules. Basically, Space Marines are nothing like you, I, nor anybody else who isn't a deranged sociopath.

Basically, you don't want to write about Space Marines. They're big, and powerful, and functionally immortal, and uncaring. They don't have doubts, or fears. They don't gain understanding, or come to grand realizations.

Space Marines are great characters if you want to write stories of ruthless, relentless, morally questionable square-jaws doing epic stuff. If you're looking for heroes who will complete some kind of narrative arc, there are none to be found here.

You need to play Space Marines, and write stories about IGuard. Or, do what I have done from time to time when I've felt like writing something about Space Marines. Write about the Marines from the perspective of regular humans. Heck, the best of the Horus Heresy novels were some of the early ones with a good portion of the narrative being about regular humans interacting with the Great Crusade. Then you can have your emotion, and a protagonist that has human emotions, and still gets to talk about Space Marines. But you're never going to be able to depict a believable Space Marine who will act the way you want them to.

Immersturm wrote:
PA armies are my favourite to play.

[snip]

And here is why it is a problem. I love how few stand against many. I love their dedication. I love the brotherhood they build. They remind me of heroes of old. The ones that went out and slew a dragon or beat back the tides of darkness, the ones that fought against all odds and won. The old legends, I see them in the Astartes. They are strong, yet wise. They are warriors. There is a reason why I like the Fantasy Norsemen. They are those warriors, but they do it with their own strength without having to become a machine (unless already helped by the gods, but even that is something different).

[snip]

An alternate way would to be create a human army that relies on minor modification, 'herbs' and exo-skeletons. While this kills the 'hero' vibe a bit, it would still be an awesome force without having me worry about the SM. But I would not be able to link it to the Primarchs and the 30k era all that well, and that pains me.

I cut quite a bit, but you do realize that you've described one existing army right? They're called the Adeptus Sororitas, the Sisters of Battle.

PA? Check.
Dedication? Check.
Brotherhood? Sort of. It's really a sisterhood.
Slew a dragon? Do Tyranids count?
Beat back the tides of darkness? They bring the light of the Emperor to his subjects.
Fought against all odds and won? Really depends on the story you're reading. The phrase "Pyrrhic victory" comes to mind a lot.
Strong? Check.
Wise? Check.
Warriors? Check.
Do things with their own strength? Check. As they don't have the black carapace, so cannot fully integrate with their PA.

You don't get a Primarch, but you do get a Saint.
30K? The Sisters of Silence, though they may no longer be canon.

I think that some of the better 40K writers have understood this, and one of the ways that they handle it is to acknowledge it.

Space Marines know that they aren't fully human in the way that normal humans are. They are aware that some of the things that make us 'human' have been removed from them. Some of them can even remember being a person like that once, even though they aren't any longer.

I really liked the moment in one of the Gaunt's Ghosts novels where one of the few Space Marines that shows up to help them comments on how he has trouble recognizing human micro-expressions, and takes pride in doing so successfully. Abnett's Iron Snakes novel does some good work with this as well, as there is a good bit of interaction between the SM protagonist and one of the human governors of the planet, extending over a long period of time (to her, at least).

I think there are several ways of humanizing them. One is to allow them to acknowledge their separation from humanity. Another is to recognize that, even on the battlefields of 40K, a Space Marine sees a LOT more dehumanizing conflict than even the most grizzled Guardsmen. Another is to realize that while the Guardsman sometimes fights to defend his family, his home, his people, or his planet, the Space Marine fights despite not really having any of those things (YMMV, as some Marines, like the Salamanders, do live among the people). In addition, the Guard often can call upon their religious faith, but many Marines do not venerate the Emperor as a god and may not have that belief to comfort them.

The Salamanders thing has alwys been a bit overplayed. How much time would a Space Marine, traveling the galaxy looking for fights, really spend on his Chapter Planet?

Dude, have you read Horus Heresy novels?

Many of them go through fascinating, philosophical aspects through the lense of an Astartes, and they have many interesting marine characters to boot. Back in the glorious day of the Great Crusade, they were more human than many would think, since it was also before the time when the intensive indoctrination and brainwashing was in fashion.

In a lot of ways, this has been a major failing of some of the Heresy novels. They place way too much humanism in the Space Marines, when that wasn't the cause of the Heresy at all. In fact, it was the exact opposite. The Heresy happened because the Primarchs were too human, and subject to human failings, and they were in charge of giant armies of superhuman warriors who were fanatically loyal to them and didn't ask questions. One of the major reforms of the Codex Astartes that often gets overlooked is that it placed the fanatical loyalty in the Emperor rather than the cult of personality which had evolved around the Primarchs. It's why 50% of Space Marine Legions fell during the Heresy, and only something like 2% of Space Marine Chapters have fallen since the Heresy. 40K Space Marines believe in the Emperor, who is effectively an idea. 30K Space Marines believed in their Primarch, who was an actual person who could issue them orders. Approaching the 30K Marines as having more human traits is ultimately a flawed perspective, because it gives them way too much agency, which the Heresy story was never supposed to have. The reason it creeps into the novels is that it's really hard to write an entire novel about ruthless, relentless, morally questionable square jaws that doesn't end up as simple bolter porn.

Vet Sarge, while I understand your point, I really can not help but thinking you have some beef with SM

Some really good comments here guys. Been a blast to read.

Don't. A Space Marine doesn't have to become a human to be a relatable character. This is the trap Star Trek fell into too much, they presented the ideals of humanity and then forced every alien into that mould regardless of his home culture and identity. Don't think about a Space Marine like a human, think about him like a Space Marine.

Once you can do that you should see that there are still personal struggles and conflicts to deal with as a Space Marine without trying to shove them into a human framework.

that says there is NOTHING that says space marines cannot have some humanizing factors. especially as every chapter is differnt. whose to say there's not some chapter that prizes the ability to describe their battleplans as Haiku or something.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Don't. A Space Marine doesn't have to become a human to be a relatable character. This is the trap Star Trek fell into too much, they presented the ideals of humanity and then forced every alien into that mould regardless of his home culture and identity. Don't think about a Space Marine like a human, think about him like a Space Marine.

Once you can do that you should see that there are still personal struggles and conflicts to deal with as a Space Marine without trying to shove them into a human framework.

Mind elaborating on that one? Sounds like you might have a plan

---------

By the way, I think I have more or less deduced the problem I have. I always need to go back to those legendary tales of old. Of courage, nobility and fearlessness. But, in case of a Marine, is it still courage when you have been bred to fight? Is it still nobility to sacrifice yourself if that is all you know? Is it still fearlessness if you have no concept of fear?
I guess it boils down to one thing: making the right choice. A hero had the choice to run for it, he had the chance to escape and safe himself, but he chose to fight and safe the others. It is not so much the actions that he did, but rather the choice he made that makes him so admirable in my eyes. This is what I am lacking the SM, because their choice has been made for them, which isn't heroic at all.
I guess very few people have the luxury of choice in the grim darkness of M41, but the point still stands.

I can personally recommend reading Deliverance Lost about the Raven Guard post-Isstvan. It's a very interesting look behind the mask of the glorious, invincible Space Marine, because it shows that they aren't as invincible or doubtless as everyone likes to think.

For example, take Commander Branne. He feels isolated from everyone who went to Isstvan, as he drew the short straw and had to stay on Deliverance. His brothers have become distant, bound together by the horrors they endured - and he wasn't part of. Throughout the book, he desperately seeks to show his worth, especially to his fellow commander and brother Agapito, who is clearly traumatized by the events but refuses to talk about it.
Even Corax himself shows more than enough emotions; be it anger towards the traitors, frustration when his plans are thwarted by the Alpha Legion or even doubt over his own abilities.

I feel that it shows that the Space Marines are more human than they themselves believe. They're stalwart defenders of the Imperium first and foremost, yes; but they can still feel emotions, if not in the way regular humans do.

Space Marines can be corrupted by Chaos. They have emotions, feelings, doubts, and flaws. The difference is that they are mentally conditioned and superbly disciplined in order to resist falling into the temptation of Chaos. As far as their augmentation, is it anymore than a hero of old wielding a magical ax or piece of armor? The Norse, Greek, Roman, etc. myths are full of gifts provided by the gods, power armor, the sacred bolter, and their biological/cyborg enhancements are the gifts of their god (s) - the emperor and the machine god. It is just a different setting and perspective.

That is a very interesting perspective to look at it. Very interesting indeed.

Grumblewartz wrote:
The Norse, Greek, Roman, etc. myths are full of gifts provided by the gods - power armor, the sacred bolter, and their biological/cyborg enhancements are the gifts of their god (s) - the emperor and the machine god. It is just a different setting and perspective.

That's a very good point.

And marines aren't (usually) emotionless robots, you actually need emotions in order to make decisions. People that have damage to certain areas of the brain dealing with emotions will be almost paralyzed even by the simple choices of everyday life, like what to wear and what to eat. A marine has been psycho-indoctrinated to keep his emotions on a tight leash but he does have some. They wouldn't take any pride in Chapter history or honor if they had no emotions, but pride is all to often what Chaos uses to bring a marine down.

Space marines are individuals, be them loyalist or traitor marines. Each has their ambitions, likes, dislikes, and personality quirks. They are definitely not mindless automatons just blindly following orders. Remember most were taken as teenagers so they had a few years to develop their personalities before getting taken in by the chapters. Some of the best writers are ADB at developing good characters and evolving them. His Night Lord books are easily the best books written for 40k as far as showing marines as marines.

Immersturm wrote:
Vet Sarge, while I understand your point, I really can not help but thinking you have some beef with SM

I've been accused of bias more than once by people who don't like my answers because it paints their faction in a negative light, but against Space Marines? Now I've been accused of everything, lol.

Nah. This is 40K. It's not a heroic license. It's a universe where even the good guys are actually bad guys, and the main human faction is an oppressive near-theocracy that features a commissar-driven army, a sinister Inquisition, and a brainwashed superhuman Marine Corps that's been conditioned from when they were children to be unquestioning sociopaths. I mean, this is a universe where entire planetary populations are put to the torch through Exterminatus, and it's seen as being the right thing to do.

But, let's be clear. While I'd never want to write a novel about Space Marine protagonists because, written properly, they'd be extremely dull as individuals, I am actually quite okay with the fact that they are morally-questionable sociopaths with a perverted set of ideals. They're still capable of great feats. Just for entirely different reasons than regular people are. For you, the Space Marines lacking heroic personality traits is a bad thing. For me, that's not a problem at all.

If I have any "beef" with Space Marines, it's just how they are occasionally portrayed in the fluff by authors who don't seem to have stopped to think "What would a person be like if they were abducted as a child, had their personality destroyed by years of conditioning psycho-therapy, were trained to be killers, and then surrounded entirely with other people who thought the exact same way?" I think about these things, and it's why I don't write about Space Marines. And when I do, they're usually doing something that is, at best, amoral, and often sketchy like killing other Space Marines over honor debts or murdering Inquisitorial investigators after breaking rules they've decided shouldn't apply to them. A Space Marine is a warrior who is designed to be resillient against all the forms of emotional and mental trauma that ruin perfectly good soldiers, and they are supposed to do it for hundreds of years. They're going to lose a lot of their humanity in the process.

I mean, really, think about the way the Imperium chooses its new Space Marine Chapters. 2/3rds of all Space Marines are from Ultramarines geneseed. Why is that? Because the Ultramarines chapter cult still involves veneration of Guilliman, and if a new chapter is going to revere their lineal primarch, it might as well be the one who did everything the "right" way. The same reason why Imperial Fists seems to be the second most common despite having flawed geneseed, and the Dark Angels are never used anymore even though their geneseed is apparently undamaged, because nobody trusts the Dark Angels to not have their own agenda. It costs a vast amount of time and resources to make a chapter of Space Marines, so the Imperium wants the best possible chance of getting ones that are reliable and will do what they are told. Notice that the Salamanders are fairly humanist, but have almost no Successors? It's probably not by accident.

Col. Dash wrote:
Remember most were taken as teenagers so they had a few years to develop their personalities before getting taken in by the chapters. .

Except the first implant has to be done before the Marine turns 12, so they're being taken when they're like 8-10 years old.

As far as I remember, the Salamanders (and the Raven Guard and Iron Hands) don't have all that many successors because they got hit pretty hard at Isstvan. However, I wouldn't be surprised if the High Lords of Terra turned out to have taken such measures, loyalty's hard to come by in the grim darkness of the far future...

Also, I don't think the Astartes fully 'destroy the personality' of all their recruits, as that would be counter-productive, wouldn't it? If everyone always follows the rules (or the Codex Astartes for that matter), then the enemy can predict your strategy and use it against you. It just seems a bit off to claim the Astartes are complete automatons, capable only of killing; if they were, some of the richest cultures of the Imperium (like Prospero or the White Scars' homeworld), wouldn't have floruished as much as they did.

(I'm no expert on any of this, it's just my understanding of the universe)

You are not technically supposed to humanize them, as they are supposed to be gods of war, no emotions, yadda yadda. If I were you, and wanted to better relate, I would look for black library stuff. I mean Pedro Cantor is cool, but he is a thousand times more awesome and relatable after he carries a women and her kids to saftey, after not even wanting them to tag along, because he is a cool guy who doesn't afraid of anything. Space Wolves and Salamanders also have a lot of stuff about them outside of battle, Like how they go above and beyond to save citizens. Blood Ravens are magpies, Blood Angels are artsy, and spend free time not training usually painting or the like. If you dig for a bit, you can almost always find ways of humanizing a chapter, excluding Ultramanaties (Excluding Titus cause he is awesome)

Even if they were completely indoctrinated as children, they would still develop individual personalities over the decades. The problem is though that unless they spend a significant amount of time with "normal" humans, these personalities would be very inhuman. SM value honour and brotherhood, they would have difficulty understanding the moral backgrounds of normal citizens.

It's like trying to humanise orks, it just doesn't quite work. You can find motivations and reasons they act like they do, but if you're doing it right, these certainly aren't humanistic.

 Ezra Tyrius wrote:
As far as I remember, the Salamanders (and the Raven Guard and Iron Hands) don't have all that many successors because they got hit pretty hard at Isstvan. However, I wouldn't be surprised if the High Lords of Terra turned out to have taken such measures, loyalty's hard to come by in the grim darkness of the far future...

Istvaan was why they didn't have 2nd Founding successors. But there have been 24 Foundings since then.

Remember, the Ultramarines were "just over half" the Space Marines after the Scouring. By M41 they are two thirds. There's a very intentional process at work in making new Space Marines. The 6th Edition DA codex suggests the last time the Imperium made new Dark Angels was the 6th or 7th Founding because of worries they were trying to recreate their Legion in secret. The Blood Angels fluff seems to suggest the Blood Angels hadn't been used for a while because of the Black Rage until the 21st Founding, when the Lamenters were created in an effort to "fix" their geneseed.

So the Imperium has been shown to be pretty deliberate in how they choose new Space Marines by geneseed. Clearly the reliability of the Ultramarines has made them the default (at least 667 of 1000 Chapters are Ultramarines), but subsequent uses of Iron Hands, Raven Guard, and Imperial Fists have not been completely uncommon. Dark Angels, Salamanders and Blood Angels are comparatively rare, and in the case of the two Angels chapters, most of the successors that exist in M41 are ones that were created in the early Foundings as opposed to more recent ones. And it makes sense. I mean, after all, if you were going to go to the time and expense of creating a Space Marine Chapter, outfitting it with an entire fleet and setting it loose in the galaxy with little supervision, you're going to want to make sure it's as failure-proofed as possible. Using defective geneseed like the Blood Angels, or entrusting it to shady characters like the Dark Angels isn't a good idea.

Also, I don't think the Astartes fully 'destroy the personality' of all their recruits, as that would be counter-productive, wouldn't it?

Their original personality is being destroyed. But it's being replaced by something new and calculated.

If everyone always follows the rules (or the Codex Astartes for that matter), then the enemy can predict your strategy and use it against you.

This is a silly Graham McNeillism. Before his crappy Ultramarines novels, the Codex Astartes was always described as an authoritative guide to waging war in "any number of ways on thousands of different kinds of worlds." It's not an instruction manual for dummies. It is supposed to be the reason why Space Marines are so good, not why they're so stupid they proscribe the use of improvised explosives and instruct recon teams engage with the enemy whenever possible. That's how somebody who doesn't know anything about fighting wars writes about fighting wars.

The reality is that the Codex Astartes is a massive tome with thousands of examples on how to fight wars. To outthink somebody who is a master of the Codex, you'd have to be... a master of the Codex. The Codex doesn't give rules on how to fight. It gives Space Marines a philosophical text on how to fight wars. Like my signature says, if Marneus Calgar is "one of the Imperium's greatest tacticians" and he treats the Codex like it is the War Bible, and the Ultramarines are the "Greatest of all Space Marine Chapters" and they adhere to its tenets, how bad is everyone else? I mean, Calgar is one of the greatest, and the Ultramarines are the greatest and they follow the Codex. That means every other Space Marine chapter is worse than them. If the Ultramarines are actually really good, then being "not as good as the Ultramarines" isn't a bad thing. If the Codex was a bad thing, and everybody else isn't as good as the Ultramarines, it means everyone else absolutely sucks, lol. I don't know about you, but that doesn't sound like a very fun universe to play in, where it's a giant genocidal episode of the Three Stooges. It's best left at "Graham McNeill isn't a very good writer of military fiction".

It just seems a bit off to claim the Astartes are complete automatons, capable only of killing; if they were, some of the richest cultures of the Imperium (like Prospero or the White Scars' homeworld), wouldn't have floruished as much as they did.

You need to remember that those planets were shaped by Primarchs, who were imbued with human qualities by virtue of having been raised among those cultures. They were not created by Space Marines.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
I don't like fluff for Space Marines. The only thing I can identify with them on is the marital tradition stuff from my own time in the US Marines.

Not sure how to interpret that

Back to topic, some of the issues the OP is addressing here are actually what made me choose Chaos Space Marines over loyalists.

It's true, to a degree, that you can field a space marine army with a "renegade" fluff of sorts. I.e. a chapter, or the fraction of a chapter, recently turned renegade for whatever reasons, but still "fresh" enough to keep most battle gear and equipment intact while at the same time having a bit more room for creating your own imagery. That said, the fluff pretty much states all renegade marines end up turning to Chaos sooner or later, conciously or not, willingly or not. So I was a bit torn between using the loyalist codex to represent renegades with no attachment to Chaos (yet) or a fully chaosy warband. I ended up jumping to the spiky naughty bandwagon, although for now I have stuck mostly to non-mutated marines with relatively loyal-like equipment.

You know, marital traditions in the Marines. Where your wife is banging some other dude (Jodie) while you're deployed and spending all your money, so you get back at them by posting their nudes to the Internet.

Hence why I was never married.

Chaos Marines definitely have a lot more leeway, because they're not Space Marines anymore (part of why they lose ATSKNF). Once that focal point (the Emperor) is gone, the conditioning begins to unravel. Of course, that doesn't really solve the OPs problem, because in order to survive, renegades have to resort to all kinds of sketchy, un-heroic stuff like piracy, where being amoral superhumans typically leads to them crossing even darker lines.

When we compare Space Marines to heroes of ancient legends, there is not all that much difference. In most legends the hero is trained to fight from the moment he was born, is capable of superhuman feats, does not show fear/doubt, receives help from the gods or magic objects, and has no choice in what he does because it is his destiny/the will of the gods.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Col. Dash wrote:
Remember most were taken as teenagers so they had a few years to develop their personalities before getting taken in by the chapters. .

Except the first implant has to be done before the Marine turns 12, so they're being taken when they're like 8-10 years old.

Not really. Space Wolves only take adult recruits, so it can be done later as well. The age of recruits likely depends on the Chapter.

Well for one, part of the problem likely results with authors not really getting the indoctrination right. Astartes are effectively born twice with little memory of their past life. First they crawl out of their mother's birth canal, and the second time is after the psycho-therapy of a Chaplain screwing with their heads and brainwashing them so hard they turn into a completely different person who only has shreds of memories as to who they previously were.

But the way people write them certainly is off, as they're wholly different from humans. Even their basic memories work differently, as Astartes have eidetic memories that are more or less flawless. Were you to go up to an Astartes and ask them what happened on June seventh, they would quite likely be able to recite every single little thing they did on that date, even if it was several years ago. Having a conversation with one of these things would not be normal, and its way of thinking would be completely alien.