Humanizing a Space Marine

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**Phyrekzhogos**

Wyzilla wrote:
Well for one, part of the problem likely results with authors not really getting the indoctrination right. Astartes are effectively born twice with little memory of their past life. First they crawl out of their mother's birth canal, and the second time is after the psycho-therapy of a Chaplain screwing with their heads and brainwashing them so hard they turn into a completely different person who only has shreds of memories as to who they previously were.

But the way people write them certainly is off, as they're wholly different from humans. Even their basic memories work differently, as Astartes have eidetic memories that are more or less flawless. Were you to go up to an Astartes and ask them what happened on June seventh, they would quite likely be able to recite every single little thing they did on that date, even if it was several years ago. Having a conversation with one of these things would not be normal, and its way of thinking would be completely alien.

I would agree with this. I didn't know about the eidetic thing, but the indoctrination is a major factor. Vet Sarge earlier mentioned they have belief systems still though, so that begs the question of whether being able to "believe" in something is an inherently humanizing or humanborn faculty as well.

From a writing perspective, you could also look up some details on autism. From what I understand, they have the same full range of emotions other people do, and yet relate in completely different ways, often having extreme narrow perspectives and being brilliant in whatever area they tend to focus on. If a marines point of view has been narrowed down like that in terms of brainwashing and gene adjustments, you could easily get a handle on writing your characters from that perspective. Just an idea.

**Ezra Tyrius**

Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Ezra Tyrius wrote:
As far as I remember, the Salamanders (and the Raven Guard and Iron Hands) don't have all that many successors because they got hit pretty hard at Isstvan. However, I wouldn't be surprised if the High Lords of Terra turned out to have taken such measures, loyalty's hard to come by in the grim darkness of the far future...
Istvaan was why they didn't have 2nd Founding successors. But there have been 24 Foundings since then.

Remember, the Ultramarines were "just over half" the Space Marines after the Scouring. By M41 they are two thirds. There's a very intentional process at work in making new Space Marines. The 6th Edition DA codex suggests the last time the Imperium made new Dark Angels was the 6th or 7th Founding because of worries they were trying to recreate their Legion in secret. The Blood Angels fluff seems to suggest the Blood Angels hadn't been used for a while because of the Black Rage until the 21st Founding, when the Lamenters were created in an effort to "fix" their geneseed.

So the Imperium has been shown to be pretty deliberate in how they choose new Space Marines by geneseed. Clearly the reliability of the Ultramarines has made them the default (at least 667 of 1000 Chapters are Ultramarines), but subsequent uses of Iron Hands, Raven Guard, and Imperial Fists have not been completely uncommon. Dark Angels, Salamanders and Blood Angels are comparatively rare, and in the case of the two Angels chapters, most of the successors that exist in M41 are ones that were created in the early Foundings as opposed to more recent ones. And it makes sense. I mean, after all, if you were going to go to the time and expense of creating a Space Marine Chapter, outfitting it with an entire fleet and setting it loose in the galaxy with little supervision, you're going to want to make sure it's as failure-proofed as possible. Using defective geneseed like the Blood Angels, or entrusting it to shady characters like the Dark Angels isn't a good idea.

Also, I don't think the Astartes fully 'destroy the personality' of all their recruits, as that would be counter-productive, wouldn't it?
Their original personality is being destroyed. But it's being replaced by something new and calculated.

If everyone always follows the rules (or the Codex Astartes for that matter), then the enemy can predict your strategy and use it against you.
This is a silly Graham McNeillism. Before his crappy Ultramarines novels, the Codex Astartes was always described as an authoritative guide to waging war in "any number of ways on thousands of different kinds of worlds." It's not an instruction manual for dummies. It is supposed to be the reason why Space Marines are so good, not why they're so stupid they proscribe the use of improvised explosives and instruct recon teams engage with the enemy whenever possible. That's how somebody who doesn't know anything about fighting wars writes about fighting wars.

The reality is that the Codex Astartes is a massive tome with thousands of examples on how to fight wars. To outthink somebody who is a master of the Codex, you'd have to be... a master of the Codex. The Codex doesn't give rules on how to fight. It gives Space Marines a philosophical text on how to fight wars. Like my signature says, if Marneus Calgar is "one of the Imperium's greatest tacticians" and he treats the Codex like it is the War Bible, and the Ultramarines are the "Greatest of all Space Marine Chapters" and they adhere to its tenets, how bad is everyone else? I mean, Calgar is one of the greatest, and the Ultramarines are the greatest and they follow the Codex. That means every other Space Marine chapter is worse than them. If the Ultramarines are actually really good, then being "not as good as the Ultramarines" isn't a bad thing. If the Codex was a bad thing, and everybody else isn't as good as the Ultramarines, it means everyone else absolutely sucks, lol. I don't know about you, but that doesn't sound like a very fun universe to play in, where it's a giant genocidal episode of the Three Stooges. It's best left at "Graham McNeill isn't a very good writer of military fiction".

It just seems a bit off to claim the Astartes are complete automatons, capable only of killing; if they were, some of the richest cultures of the Imperium (like Prospero or the White Scars' homeworld), wouldn't have floruished as much as they did.
You need to remember that those planets were shaped by Primarchs, who were imbued with human qualities by virtue of having been raised among those cultures. They were not created by Space Marines.

Your arguments, sir, make complete and utter sense. Which kind of sucks because now I feel like a gakker

About that last point though, I remember some SM Chapters organizing some sort of festivities or activities on their recruitment planet as part of the initiation rites. Would you count that as being more of a cultural thing or something that's merely there for its practical use in selecting worthy recruits? I mean, some Chapters just stuff a bunch of crazies in a cage and let the Emperor sort them out, while others at least try to integrate it into the planet's culture; which means they're sort of capable of understanding the need for such trivial things

**Veteran Sergeant**

It's nothing worth feeling bad about. I have a unique combination of experience in that I'm both a former professional writer (now the most I write is blurb copy, lol) and a former Marine. So I've seen the inside of military indoctrination first-hand and how it works, but I have also spent a lot of time considering motivation and character. Also, one of the projects I worked on at one point involved a lot of research into the state of central/east Africa, and naturally led research on child soldier programs.

And that's what a Space Marine is. The most ridiculously grimdark combination of hardcore military indoctrination and child soldiery. Someone mentioned Soldier with Kurt Russell. I don't recommend watching the whole thing, but the opening sequence where it tracks his development from a small child to an adult is about as Space Mariney as you'll get in an unrelated sci-fi universe.

Ultimately, Space Marine indoctrination rites are usually just "Rule of Cool" dominated. I mean, some of the things they do sound really cool until you realize it's a bunch of tweens trying to do it. As much as I dog on McNeill's Ultramarines series for its numerous faults, I'm pretty sure his was the book that presented the most reasonable idea of Space Marine indoctrination with a bunch of 6 and 7 years olds competing to get into an academy on Ultramar. Personally I would assume the most important qualifications for a Space Marine aspirant would be biological compatibility with the implants, and mental acuity/mental endurance. After all, it wouldn't matter whether or not you recruit the chubby kid or the skinny kid. After all, Space Marines aren't born. They're made. No matter how big or small, they're going to end up pumped full of growth hormones and extra organs and end up sevenish feet tall.

But at the same time, while the Ultramarines way of doing it is the most "reasonable", 40K isn't always reasonable and shouldn't have to be. It's entirely possible some Chapters would have less efficient ways of doing it, which they continue out of superstition, or because that's the way they've always done it.

So when some chapters are described as having these complicated initiation rituals, it's not necessarily the best, or even a good way of doing it. It's just the way they do it. After all, no matter how you choose an aspirant, you're going to end up subjecting him to endless mental conditioning for the rest of his life.

**Wyzilla**

Also, Astartes aspirants need to have a brave, almost already fearless mentality. The Dark Angels will kill any aspirant who balks at getting the implants.

**BrianDavion**

Iron_Captain wrote:
When we compare Space Marines to heroes of ancient legends, there is not all that much difference. In most legends the hero is trained to fight from the moment he was born, is capable of superhuman feats, does not show fear/doubt, receives help from the gods or magic objects, and has no choice in what he does because it is his destiny/the will of the gods.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Col. Dash wrote:
Remember most were taken as teenagers so they had a few years to develop their personalities before getting taken in by the chapters. .
Except the first implant has to be done before the Marine turns 12, so they're being taken when they're like 8-10 years old.
Not really. Space Wolves only take adult recruits, so it can be done later as well. The age of recruits likely depends on the Chapter.

an "adult" on Fenris is 13 or 14 or so.

**Immersturm**

If you read Prospero Burns, one of the guys recruited to be a SW (and actually makes it) was a seasoned warrior. You do not become a seasoned warrior with 14.
If you also read up the story of how the first Fenrisian SW were made, you will find that they were the Warriors Leman Russ fought alongside and the ones closest to him during his reign as the king of Fenris. Even the Emperor said they were too old (and some of them had grey hair and beards) and yet they made it, surprising even big E.
But I also need to add that the transformation into an SM is a bit different with the SW with their Canis Helix and all that jazz.

**Bishop F Gantry**

Immersturm wrote:
I have created plenty of armies during my time. I mostly sold them off or did them as a commission. However, I have yet to create a personal army. I have attempted it several times and abandoned it half way through. Now I am trying it again, but I have once again hit the same road block. The Space Marine.
You see, I love them as a group. PA armies are my favourite to play. I enjoy the Primarchs a lot and the 30k era is my favourite in the entire Warhammer lore. I would not play any other army besides my SW and occasionally DA or SM.

My problem lies with the Space Marine as an individual. I am having trouble relating to him. I am having trouble imagining myself as one of them. I can not feel immersed. This really hurts my fluff writing ability and kills my creative spark.
The thing is, to me a SM seems like a tool. Something that the Imperium has build and now owns. They feel like machines to me. No life except war, the thing they were created for. The humanity in them has died in favour of efficiency. Can they feel any other emotions? Can they appreciate beauty? Can they be compassionate? Are they still human?
Is it still valor to stand against the horrors of darkness even if you were bred to do it? Is it still strength to dominate a superior foe if you have been artificially enhanced?
The other thing that ruins it for me is their creation and what they are. You basically take a child and take his life away in order to weaponize him (Wolves notwithstanding seeing as they recruit adults, but the point still stands). And their 're-creation' makes them something else entirely. I would even go so far as to call them abhuman.
I could go on an hour long rant about the individual Space Marine but in short, I can not connect to them. They feel alien to me, which is a bit of problem when I am trying to create a force that is basically me.

And here is why it is a problem. I love how few stand against many. I love their dedication. I love the brotherhood they build. They remind me of heroes of old. The ones that went out and slew a dragon or beat back the tides of darkness, the ones that fought against all odds and won. The old legends, I see them in the Astartes. They are strong, yet wise. They are warriors. There is a reason why I like the Fantasy Norsemen. They are those warriors, but they do it with their own strength without having to become a machine (unless already helped by the gods, but even that is something different).

Anyway, I am planning massive project, to build the 11th Legion (been inspired by the 2nd Legion project over on B&C). It would basically be my dream project. Create your own Primarch (as in building or commission an actual model of my own design), write a long epic about them. Build your very own Legion of heroes of old. But, I can not be at peace with them being augmented, weaponized tools of war. And not humans. Not the heroes that fought with nought but their own strength and will. But tools of war, bred to perform those things, rather than choose to do it.
An alternate way would to be create a human army that relies on minor modification, 'herbs' and exo-skeletons. While this kills the 'hero' vibe a bit, it would still be an awesome force without having me worry about the SM. But I would not be able to link it to the Primarchs and the 30k era all that well, and that pains me.

I know that I rambled a bit, but it is pretty tough to put it into words. Still, I hope you can help me.

Cheers

Perhaps your looking at it from the wrong angle, Space marines do not find their humanity they are slowly loosing their humanity.

**Veteran Sergeant**

BrianDavion wrote:
Iron_Captain wrote:
When we compare Space Marines to heroes of ancient legends, there is not all that much difference. In most legends the hero is trained to fight from the moment he was born, is capable of superhuman feats, does not show fear/doubt, receives help from the gods or magic objects, and has no choice in what he does because it is his destiny/the will of the gods.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Col. Dash wrote:
Remember most were taken as teenagers so they had a few years to develop their personalities before getting taken in by the chapters. .
Except the first implant has to be done before the Marine turns 12, so they're being taken when they're like 8-10 years old.
Not really. Space Wolves only take adult recruits, so it can be done later as well. The age of recruits likely depends on the Chapter.

an "adult" on Fenris is 13 or 14 or so.

It's also because Space Wolves fluff is silly, and written so that Space Wolves get to be extra cool and drink beer and sex with girls and vikings and wolfy wolfy wolf wolf.

The fluff is pretty clear about recruits having to be kids, even including Luther and Kor Phaeron.

Again, unless you're Space Wolves who don't follow rules arooooooo.

**Desubot**

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

It's also because Space Wolves fluff is silly, and written so that Space Wolves get to be extra cool and drink beer and sex with girls and vikings and wolfy wolfy wolf wolf.

The fluff is pretty clear about recruits having to be kids, even including Luther and Kor Phaeron.

Again, unless you're Space Wolves who don't follow rules arooooooo.

Quite frankly GW fluff is never really consistent is it.

I think you really can humanize them considering that they have feels. otherwise they would literally be incorruptible by chaos.
They clearly show anger ambition and such and such but it just doesn't show because of how disciplined most are until they crack and gak starts getting real.

**Iron_Captain**

Veteran Sergeant wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Iron_Captain wrote:
When we compare Space Marines to heroes of ancient legends, there is not all that much difference. In most legends the hero is trained to fight from the moment he was born, is capable of superhuman feats, does not show fear/doubt, receives help from the gods or magic objects, and has no choice in what he does because it is his destiny/the will of the gods.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Col. Dash wrote:
Remember most were taken as teenagers so they had a few years to develop their personalities before getting taken in by the chapters. .
Except the first implant has to be done before the Marine turns 12, so they're being taken when they're like 8-10 years old.
Not really. Space Wolves only take adult recruits, so it can be done later as well. The age of recruits likely depends on the Chapter.

an "adult" on Fenris is 13 or 14 or so.
It's also because Space Wolves fluff is silly, and written so that Space Wolves get to be extra cool and drink beer and sex with girls and vikings and wolfy wolfy wolf wolf.

The fluff is pretty clear about recruits having to be kids, even including Luther and Kor Phaeron.

Again, unless you're Space Wolves who don't follow rules arooooooo.

That is just your opinion.

Also, fluff is not at all clear about recruits having to be children. For example, when the Emperor came to Caliban, most of the members of the Order could still undergo the transformation process. Only the older members such as Luther could not. From that I would guess the process works on young adults too.
On the other hand, the fluff is pretty clear about not all Chapters taking their recruits as young children. As mentioned already, the SW take adults (you can think it is silly as much as you want, but it is as canon as could be), the White Scars recruit in the same manner as the Space Wolves and the Blood Angels take recruits in their adolescence.

**Squidmanlolz**

It's hard to humanize something so utterly inhuman. I mean, Astartes are creatures who have had their organs rearranged, their rib-cage replaced with a sheet of metal. They do not feel pain or any human emotion. They have only one purpose, and that is to kill without mercy. It's difficult to relate to that.

**Col. Dash**

RT fluff has extensive information on this. While some like the DA will take promising kids, others like the SW want to see them in action first and take promising warriors from raids and such. Obviously they still have to be young. I haven't seen anything that says pre-12 since many chapters take them in their teens. I think across the board though, the implants will not work post-puberty so even the SW aspiring marines must be in their early to mid teens. While uncommon in our current times, it was not uncommon in ancient times to have mid teenaged warriors. Afterall, in many cultures, children were wed as early as 12(some still are). Knights would have squires in their early to mid teens as well who fought along side them in battle.

Remember old fluff had marines in bars drinking in their off time.

**AnomanderRake**

Immersturm wrote:
AnomanderRake wrote:
Don't. A Space Marine doesn't have to become a human to be a relatable character. This is the trap Star Trek fell into too much, they presented the ideals of humanity and then forced every alien into that mould regardless of his home culture and identity. Don't think about a Space Marine like a human, think about him like a Space Marine.

Once you can do that you should see that there are still personal struggles and conflicts to deal with as a Space Marine without trying to shove them into a human framework.

Mind elaborating on that one? Sounds like you might have a plan

Not so much of a plan as a disorganized jumble of ideas. Go find the DoWII Chaos Rising campaign and listen to all iterations of The Wages of Sin, solid selection of things Space Marines might struggle with. Also goes to show that there are idiots and psychopaths even amongst the ranks of the Defenders of Humanity.

**Wyzilla**

Iron_Captain wrote:
Veteran Sergeant wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Iron_Captain wrote:
When we compare Space Marines to heroes of ancient legends, there is not all that much difference. In most legends the hero is trained to fight from the moment he was born, is capable of superhuman feats, does not show fear/doubt, receives help from the gods or magic objects, and has no choice in what he does because it is his destiny/the will of the gods.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Col. Dash wrote:
Remember most were taken as teenagers so they had a few years to develop their personalities before getting taken in by the chapters. .
Except the first implant has to be done before the Marine turns 12, so they're being taken when they're like 8-10 years old.
Not really. Space Wolves only take adult recruits, so it can be done later as well. The age of recruits likely depends on the Chapter.

an "adult" on Fenris is 13 or 14 or so.
It's also because Space Wolves fluff is silly, and written so that Space Wolves get to be extra cool and drink beer and sex with girls and vikings and wolfy wolfy wolf wolf.

The fluff is pretty clear about recruits having to be kids, even including Luther and Kor Phaeron.

Again, unless you're Space Wolves who don't follow rules arooooooo.

That is just your opinion.

Also, fluff is not at all clear about recruits having to be children. For example, when the Emperor came to Caliban, most of the members of the Order could still undergo the transformation process. Only the older members such as Luther could not. From that I would guess the process works on young adults too.
On the other hand, the fluff is pretty clear about not all Chapters taking their recruits as young children. As mentioned already, the SW take adults (you can think it is silly as much as you want, but it is as canon as could be), the White Scars recruit in the same manner as the Space Wolves and the Blood Angels take recruits in their adolescence.

It did work on young adults. Zahariel and Nemiel were in their mid teens when they were inducted, and were noted for being peculiar in how they were older then many of the other recruits.

Although, technology in the Great Crusade was more advanced, so the ability to induct young adults may have simply been lost, or was ditched so they could indoctrinate more impressionable, younger minds of children.

**JinxDragon**

Seconding those that bring up the salamanders.

My distaste for Space Marines is along the same lines as the opening poster, the constant regime of training and devotion to war makes it hard to relate to the end result. Even if an individual Space Marine is capable of being humanized, and that is debatable given the modifications they go through, human psychology does not deal well with such a regime. well, 'does not deal well' is not the best way to describe the mechanisms the mind goes through to protect itself in such an environment, but the end results are predictable. A being that will respond before the brain can react, usually with violence, because that is how you achieve objectives regardless of risk and challenge.

Good for the battlefield, not so good for what little humanity remains.

Salamanders on the other hand have a different regime, one which encourages a family life and social responsibility. This allows us, third party outsiders, to have a little more reliability because we don't honestly don't want to be 'meat-head killers in power armor forever trapped in endless war.' We would want to know that our personas in such a universe can be happy as well, enjoying having a life other then the battlefield which will likely involve be surrounded by people who admire them for their feats of strength. Cause face it... none of us would be happy if we didn't have someone back home to boast to, and if all of the people you are in contact with are identical "near-clones" of yourself it gets a little hard to feel special.

Of coursed Slaanesh will allow you to embrace all the traits which make you human....

**Veteran Sergeant**

Iron_Captain wrote:
Veteran Sergeant wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Iron_Captain wrote:
When we compare Space Marines to heroes of ancient legends, there is not all that much difference. In most legends the hero is trained to fight from the moment he was born, is capable of superhuman feats, does not show fear/doubt, receives help from the gods or magic objects, and has no choice in what he does because it is his destiny/the will of the gods.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Col. Dash wrote:
Remember most were taken as teenagers so they had a few years to develop their personalities before getting taken in by the chapters. .
Except the first implant has to be done before the Marine turns 12, so they're being taken when they're like 8-10 years old.
Not really. Space Wolves only take adult recruits, so it can be done later as well. The age of recruits likely depends on the Chapter.

an "adult" on Fenris is 13 or 14 or so.
It's also because Space Wolves fluff is silly, and written so that Space Wolves get to be extra cool and drink beer and sex with girls and vikings and wolfy wolfy wolf wolf.

The fluff is pretty clear about recruits having to be kids, even including Luther and Kor Phaeron.

Again, unless you're Space Wolves who don't follow rules arooooooo.

That is just your opinion.

Also, fluff is not at all clear about recruits having to be children. For example, when the Emperor came to Caliban, most of the members of the Order could still undergo the transformation process. Only the older members such as Luther could not. From that I would guess the process works on young adults too.
On the other hand, the fluff is pretty clear about not all Chapters taking their recruits as young children. As mentioned already, the SW take adults (you can think it is silly as much as you want, but it is as canon as could be), the White Scars recruit in the same manner as the Space Wolves and the Blood Angels take recruits in their adolescence.

No. This is not an opinion. Unless you mean my opinion that Space Wolves fluff sucks. I mean, that part is kind of subjective, but it's essentially fact too.

The fluff is absolutely ironclad clear. 10-12 years old for the Ossmodula and Biscopea. Which means unless they just toss them right on the operating table without any testing at all, they're being recruited from 8-10 years old, or potentially even younger. But they physically cannot be older than 12.

Do some authors occasionally break these rules because The Black Library's editing team is atrociously bad (possibly nonexistent except for rudimentary copy-editing)? Perhaps. But that is, not joking, the oldest piece of consistent fluff in Warhammer 40K, dating back to the February 1988 issue of White Dwarf. It has not changed, even once, despite being reprinted dozens of times.

**thegreatchimp**

I've only read 2 space marine novels and of the 2 protaganists I found Garviel Loken to be a fairly down to earth bloke, and Ragnar Blackmane came across as someone I'd share a few beers with. Lack of fear and combat frensy/ rage issues aside, they're not so different to a real life warrior-monk. Or should I say "to how a warrior monk is portrayed", as I don't actually know any in real life...unfortunately

**Bafaltin**

To humanize a space marine you have to understand that most imperial citizens never see a space marine in their life. Space Marines are the myth, they are the legend. To see a space karine is to know hope, and absolute fear. A space marine is a human that has been sacrificed on the altar of war so that others may live. Nothing could be greater in a space marines eyes than dying to protect what his Emporor loves most. The normal human beings. That is why they cant be humanized. Just like the Emporor they are beyond human to save those that cannot save themselves. And as for them being order taking machijes thats bull. The space marines have stood toe to toe with the inquisition multiple times because the believe in the imperial truth and not in the imperial cult

**Mecha-Streisand**

Phyrekzhogos wrote:
I'm gonna be honest with you, I don't think you've read enough fluff.

You think Space Marines don't recognize beauty or are incapable of creating it? The Blood angels actually spend more time on the artistry and craftsmanship of their wargear than most, creating "veritable works of art" using their many many long years of life to hone their abilities. (Page 22 of their current codex talks about their gear, and earlier it talks about the craftsman of Baal whom many are descended from before Baal got glassed in an ancient war)

The Ultramarines didn't create the beauty of Ultramar themselves, and yet their romanesque spralling cities and fortresses were inspired and built in a definite stylized form reminiscent of the styles that the chapter itself surrounds itself with, and I'm sure the chapter itself would have had a lot of say and influence in the constructions on their worlds.

Even the Dark Angels can recognize artistry, using the very features of their gothic cathedral monasteries as form for their arms and armor.

There are plenty of examples out there, the many different chapters often recognizing different versions of beauty or art. I think it likely that a space marine is fully capable of realizing emotion as well.

The Space Wolves would not have been moved to anger at the Grey Knights in the aftermath of Armageddon had they not felt something about the GK and Inquisition decision to sterilize the population. In many of the novels, they're all perfectly capable of feeling anger, so I don't think other emotions are inherently off the table. Every chapter is different, and react differently to different situations, not unlike people of any other stripe. Some will uncaring and duty bound sure, but not all, and it still by no means precludes other feelings.

All that being said however, I do think they've been changed substantially from a normal human being. Certain emotions absolutely must be supressed or at least overcome in some way even if recognized, fear being one of them. But I tend to think if any compassion were lacking in all the marines, then they'd care far less for their fellows, their chapter, the people of the imperium and they'd be more like necrons.

I prefer to think of them as strong duty bound warriors who have had their major emotions tamped down so that they can do their work, but each is as different as normal human beings in scope, just on another level that we normal humans don't readily identify with. Halo and many other works of science fiction like Heinleins classic, Starship Troopers all tackle the ways a super soldier could be represented well from the points of view of normal people turned soldier all the way to children taken and tampered with. Heck watch the movie Soldier, with Kurt Russell in it. Theres a decent depiction of a future soldier basically brainwashed from childhood to be exactly what a military group wants them to be.

Hopefully some of that gives you some new ideas to write from.

I've always viewed the Space Marines the exact same way as this

**Filch**

Chaos Space Marines are more human. They are selfish, greedy, angry, prideful, lazy, horny, jealous and homicidal. How much more human can you get?