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Rumor has it the next two boxes (Aces style) will feature the titled four ships.

If you were at FFG, what would you release to fix any one (or more) of the listed ships?

Missiles need to be utterly reworked. They're borked.

X-Wings need to be 19 points base. Or perhaps 1 more hull.
E-Wing Generics just aren't worth taking. E-Wing needs 1 more hull, or some form of discount.
Defender isn't awful, but it needs to be more survivable of a jouster. Perhaps a skill that buffs 'head to head' shooting?
Bomber needs ordinance worth a damn.

I think that the X-wing needs to be able to use the R4 Agromech. And probably a small discount.

E-wing (except for Corran) needs to be a couple points cheaper.

TIE Defender needs something to make it a bit less predictable. As it is, it is really easy to tell where it's going. Maybe a green bank maneuver? And Boost Action?

TIE Bomber of course needs ordinance to not blow. This would probably help all the other ships on this list as well.

Well, if we're to work on this as FFG would, we can't alter ship stats or points values, as they don't reprint cards.

Consequently, any changes need to be done via upgrades or pilot abilities.

Bombers suffer from the poor utility vs points cost of most secondary weapons, as do X Wings to a degree, and consequently over paying for a slot that people seldom wish to fill (in the Bombers case, essentially rendering the whole ship pointless.) Therefore, more, better costed, secondaries or a means to obtain a discount for an unused slot a là Chaardan Refit would help, although discounts wouldn't really incentivise me to play the Bomber unless they were excessive.

The X is also paying for the Astromech slot, which only really sees specific use (I can't recall, either online or IRL, ever seeing a Rookie Pilot equipped with one for instance) so a variety of droids with decent utility may well help the X appear better value without actually reducing the cost.

I've not flown the E or Defender enough to have a strong idea, but I find the Defender predictable to fly against, so something with greater action efficiency that allowed for more off-dial movement would make it a harder target for me, E Wing wise, I think it just needs either greater durability or evasiveness.

The X-Wing needs some kind of card that trades the versatility of the Torpedo and Astromech slots for either more durability or a points reduction like the A-wing refit

The E-wing and Defender are most likely okay, not every ship needs to be cutting edge dogfight killers, the named pilots are decent enough as, especially if the recent changes
mean middling PS values might mean something rather than the current 1,2,9,lots spread

The Bomber needs to be able to take at least 1 missle/torp/bomb for free or a sizeable (ie -4) discount and maybe get 2 uses out of each item

I think that the bomber could really benefit from a "Heavy Ordinance Load" title or modification (Bomber only). Basically, make them just not discard an ordinance card after use (think Munitions failsafe on steroids). I think that for two or three points this would be a Useful upgrade. Now, a bomber with proton torps works like a poor mans Heavy Laser Cannon (lets say 23 points for a generic, so you can run 4). Running Flechette Torps/Ion Pulse Missiles would give you a reasonable control ship (24pt). Major Rhymer with APT and PTL would be kinda scary (38pt).

X-wing I'm thinking giving a "Rogue Squadron" titles, which gives it another EPT slot.

TIE bomber: nothing right now. Any TIE bomber fix is dependent on a fix to missiles and torps, and that fix has to be carefully balanced around more than just the TIE bomber. So I wouldn't do anything specifically for the TIE bomber until after its weapons are fixed and we have some experience with them.

TIE defender: adding advanced sensors or FCS would have been an option, but now that the TIE advanced got that upgrade I don't know if it would be appropriate for the defender. Same with firing its cannons and its primary weapon like the y-wing. Maybe give it a discount on cannons so that you can take a free ion cannon or upgrade to a HLC for relatively cheap? I'd probably wait just a bit though to see how the PS 6 pilot works now that mid-PS pilots are more viable. If I can add new pilots without a full expansion I'd see if giving the defender a defense-focused pilot would help justify spending that many points on one ship.

X-wing: a point cost reduction (probably by removing a slot refit-style) seems obvious, in hindsight making the x-wing 21 points to avoid a 5X list probably wasn't necessary and at 20 points its math looks a lot better. Alternatively, a cost reduction on droids would be a nice little boost but not overpowered. The proposals I've seen for a firepower upgrade to restore it to its original glass cannon role (the only ship on release day with a 3-dice gun) sound interesting but IMO have a bit too much potential to make the x-wing overpowered if they aren't done perfectly. And "rogue squadron" EPT option doesn't really solve the cost issue since you still have to pay points to use the EPT slot.

E-wing: I really have no idea. The problem is that Corran is great while the other e-wings are mediocre at best. So how do you buff the weaker e-wings without making one of the best pilots in the game blatantly overpowered? And without some awkward and anti-fluffy solution like adding a "may not be equipped to Corran" rule on the buff? Or do you just accept that, kind of like the TIE advanced fix, the buff that makes most of the pilots decent is going to make the best one borderline overpowered?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Azreal13 wrote:
E Wing wise, I think it just needs either greater durability or evasiveness.

The danger here is that Corran is already one of the toughest ships in the game and virtually unbeatable in a 1v1 endgame situation against pretty much anything without a 4-dice gun. If you make Corran more durable, whether it's through green dice or more HP, you significantly increase the risk of making him impossible to kill in the endgame and incredibly difficult to kill before he gets to the endgame. And if by "evasiveness" you mean maneuvering instead of green dice then you're dangerously close to removing the one thing keeping Corran even remotely balanced: the fact that his maneuverability isn't as good as the other elite endgame threats.

Honestly, Munitions Failure is an awful 'fix' for ordinance.
It should have been

Extra Ammo (or expanded launchers or whatever)
1 pt (0 pts?!), Modification
Instead of discarding a secondary weapon after using it, discard this card instead.

Have another thought for the X-wing- a T-65AC4 title (According to Wookiepedia, this was an X-wing built to compete with stuff like the E-wing, but competing with the B-wing would be more important to us ). Better Firepower, Speed, Shields, etc. I'm thinking that it should be like the TIE-Advanced A1, but targeting modifications instead of sensors. I think making it "The modification is 3 points cheaper" , so hull upgrade is still a point cheaper than shields. Free experimental interface, hull upgrade or stealth device, and 1-point engine or shield upgrades. I would probably throw in a 5pt 'Augmented Cannons" upgrade which allows the X-wing to roll an extra attack die when using it's primary weapons. I'm not sure if this would be enough to get the generics chosen over the B-wing though. Would probably need some cheap, effective astromech card to do that. We still need generic R3 and R4 astromechs, so make a card for one of them with something good.

I think that the solution to the E-wing, would be an "Early Model" Title (remember, the E-wing had huge reliability issues to begin with). Make it restricted to guys with PS 5 or less, and make it give a point drop. Not sure what the drawback would be, but maybe make it so that if you have any face-up damage cards, you roll one dice less when attacking (not a big issue, as any E-wing that takes a crit is probably dead anyways) to represent the main guns tendency to lose power over time. This gives a decent excuse for excluding Corran (he didn't start flying an E-wing until after the teething issues were solved). The trick would be to cost the other aces you release appropriatly (so PS 5 or less costs more than PS 6+).

EDIT:

Thinking that it would be funny if the R4 Astromech's ability was "Spend Target lock, gain focus". While this may seem stronger than the Agromech (because you can re-roll blanks, then convert focuses), I think that it would still work. 1) Two of the ships that it affects need a buff anyways. 2) It would be usable for torpedoes, which need a buff anyways. 3) Getting a target lock would be redundant with FCS for the E-wing.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Well, if we're to work on this as FFG would, we can't alter ship stats or points values, as they don't reprint cards.

QFE.

That was kind of the idea behind the discussion I wanted to have.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
E Wing wise, I think it just needs either greater durability or evasiveness.

The danger here is that Corran is already one of the toughest ships in the game and virtually unbeatable in a 1v1 endgame situation against pretty much anything without a 4-dice gun. If you make Corran more durable, whether it's through green dice or more HP, you significantly increase the risk of making him impossible to kill in the endgame and incredibly difficult to kill before he gets to the endgame. And if by "evasiveness" you mean maneuvering instead of green dice then you're dangerously close to removing the one thing keeping Corran even remotely balanced: the fact that his maneuverability isn't as good as the other elite endgame threats.

I'm not fond of it as a concept, as it doesn't really work from a "narrative" standpoint (I hate that term, thanks GW!) but we have precedent for min PS for certain upgrades, perhaps there could be some way of incorporating an upgrade with a max PS requirement that wasn't dumb?

 EmpNortonII wrote:
Rumor has it

Source?

For the TIE Bomber, how about a Title Card that gives it basically 2 for 1 on weapon upgrades. "When you equip a Missile / Torpedo / (Bomb? - might be too good....) icon, you may equip a second weapon of that type which costs the same or less points, for the cost of 0 (or Minus X?) points.

Combine that with your Munitions failsafe modification, and it'd be pretty fair, no?

X-Wings, I still think aren't too awful. There's a few ideas I have. One is making an R2-D5, that has the exact same rules as R2-D6, but is also unique, so you can't spam pilot talents, but still have a couple of the basic X-Wings with EPT's.

This might be a bit OP, but, if you have modifications / titles to reduce the points of astromech upgrades by 1 point (to a minimum of zero) and add in a couple more of the R2 astromechs to the box, that kinda solves the 'lack of greens' issue.

TIE Defenders? Title to make modifications cheaper, add Engine Upgrade cards to the set.

E-Wing, I dunno, something that that works contrary to what Corran wants. - Maybe a System upgrade of some sort?

X Wings need a Rogue Sqdn generic pilot with an EPT too.

 Crazy_Carnifex wrote:
I would probably throw in a 5pt 'Augmented Cannons" upgrade which allows the X-wing to roll an extra attack die when using it's primary weapons. I'm not sure if this would be enough to get the generics chosen over the B-wing though.

This is what I mean about improving the x-wing's firepower being dangerous. An x-wing with a 4-dice gun would make the b-wing (along with most other rebel ships) entirely obsolete. A b-wing with a HLC is generally considered to be a decent ship at 29 points, and your x-wing proposal matches its firepower (slightly worse at range 3, much better at range 4) with a little less durability for only 23 points.

I think that the solution to the E-wing, would be an "Early Model" Title (remember, the E-wing had huge reliability issues to begin with). Make it restricted to guys with PS 5 or less, and make it give a point drop. Not sure what the drawback would be, but maybe make it so that if you have any face-up damage cards, you roll one dice less when attacking (not a big issue, as any E-wing that takes a crit is probably dead anyways) to represent the main guns tendency to lose power over time. This gives a decent excuse for excluding Corran (he didn't start flying an E-wing until after the teething issues were solved). The trick would be to cost the other aces you release appropriatly (so PS 5 or less costs more than PS 6+).

That might be ok for balance purposes, but I don't like it for fluff/theme reasons. The e-wing is supposed to fill the "supership" role and be the ultimate fighter with a point cost to match. Making it cheaper but weaker IMO loses some of that concept. If it's possible I'd much rather buff the e-wing to match its point cost and the expectation that it's the best.

Thinking that it would be funny if the R4 Astromech's ability was "Spend Target lock, gain focus". While this may seem stronger than the Agromech (because you can re-roll blanks, then convert focuses), I think that it would still work. 1) Two of the ships that it affects need a buff anyways. 2) It would be usable for torpedoes, which need a buff anyways. 3) Getting a target lock would be redundant with FCS for the E-wing.

This would be kind of interesting. It doesn't help proton torpedoes much since you get the automatic "focus" effect but it's a decent buff to ion and flechette torps and a huge buff to advanced torps. Now as long as you can get to range 1 with a TL you almost automatically get the full five hits. But that's a lot of points to invest...

 Compel wrote:
For the TIE Bomber, how about a Title Card that gives it basically 2 for 1 on weapon upgrades. "When you equip a Missile / Torpedo / (Bomb? - might be too good....) icon, you may equip a second weapon of that type which costs the same or less points, for the cost of 0 (or Minus X?) points.

I like the general idea if you're limited to fixing just the TIE bomber, but missile and torpedo weapons need a buff in general. If you just fix the TIE bomber you make one ship better but the general rule of "missiles and torps suck" still applies and nobody else uses them. And if/when the weapons themselves get a buff giving a two for one deal might end up being too powerful.

Also, IMO this is a better solution:

Extra Weapons
Title
Tie Bomber and y-wing only
Your {missile} and {torpedo} upgrade cost zero points.

And then you set the cost to an appropriate level for a full load of weapons, giving the dedicated "bomber" ships the ability to fill all of their slots without worrying about how much it costs. Then the choice is "which mix of weapons do I want for my intended role", not "can I afford to arm my ships".

E-Wing, I dunno, something that that works contrary to what Corran wants. - Maybe a System upgrade of some sort?

I think the problem with this idea is that "what Corran wants" is the same thing that every e-wing wants. Corran just happens to be the highest-PS pilot and have a good ability, and R2-D2 is unique so you can't take the second-best e-wing as well as Corran. If you make a system upgrade that is better than AS/FCS on e-wings in general (a very dangerous plan since AS/FCS are so powerful) then Corran will probably make good use of it as well. The only thing I can think of that Corran wouldn't want is the suggested "make it worse for a point reduction" title, since Corran would rather have the power instead of a mostly-irrelevant point drop. But, as I mentioned, that's bad for fluff reasons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Azreal13 wrote:
X Wings need a Rogue Sqdn generic pilot with an EPT too.

I don't think this would actually help all that much balance-wise (fluff-wise it's great, obviously). The x-wing's problem is its cost, not its lack of options, and adding another upgrade slot to fill just increases its point cost. Unless you find an EPT option that is too powerful for its point cost to use it with the end result is still a ship that costs too many points. Just look at how little use Porkins sees despite being a very good deal on paper (point cost of a PS 6 generic but with PS 7 and an EPT slot) even if you never use his ability.

Here we go, just a few quick ideas

X wing: upgrade card for swapping a torp slot for a shield for no points

E wing: all except corran are too pricey, I think maybe just sucking it up or making it at the cost of the astromechs slot, drop 2-3 points, lose the astromechs? (Will prevent corran taking it as he wants r2 usually)

The ties are trickier, bomber maybe free bombs at the expense of torp slot and vice versca, player choice? Or can use all munitions twice?

Defender: honestly don't know, cannon price drop? Or straight up price drop a wing style as none of the ships for the defender would become op with a 2-3 point drop.

Thinking about Corran/The E-wing, I think what we would need would be to have some upgrade which provides a strong, cheap buff to the first attack, but is phrased so as not to work for Corrans second attack. It would need to be either a sensor or droid, both of which Corran likes to have. So Corran may pass over it for something which helps both attacks, but generic E-wings will snap it up.

 Crazy_Carnifex wrote:
Thinking about Corran/The E-wing, I think what we would need would be to have some upgrade which provides a strong, cheap buff to the first attack, but is phrased so as not to work for Corrans second attack. It would need to be either a sensor or droid, both of which Corran likes to have. So Corran may pass over it for something which helps both attacks, but generic E-wings will snap it up.

Maybe. The problem is that Corran's double tap isn't actually that important. It's certainly a good ability, but what really makes Corran work is PS 8 arc dodging combined with the R2-D2 + PTL combo. You could give him a different pilot ability and as long as it's the same power level he would still be a top-tier endgame ship. So having a buff that doesn't apply to the double tap isn't a big deal, Corran will just shoot you with the buffed first shot and continue to use the double tap in situations where you don't expect to shoot next turn anyway. Meanwhile AS/FCS and R2-D2 are still amazing upgrades on non-Corran e-wings and the only reason you don't see them is that once you buy an e-wing at all you might as well take Corran. If you make a firepower buff that's better than AS/FCS then Corran will take it as well, and it would be very dangerous to even attempt to compete with R2-D2.

 Manchu wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:
Rumor has it

Source?

A guy I know heard it from a guy he knows... I think.

It might just be someone overheard someone's wishful thinking and forgot to ask a source.

I'm a big fan of giving the X-Wing an extra attack dice for 2-3 point cost, right now they are stuck being a jack off all trades and thus not being quite good enough when you need them to excel. 4 attack dice would set them as high attack, Tie-Fighter butchering queen of the skies without all the bells and whistles that other Rebel ships have. If that turns out badly during play testing a 0 cost title that gives the extra attack dice but only at Range Band 1 might just do the trick.

E-Wing is one that vexes me. Lorewise its meant to be designed to merge the best qualities of the A-wing and X-Wing to make a superfighter that turned out to be a bit of a lemon and so never fully replaced either. So I can't draw any inspirations from the EU material to help me. The most obvious fix is a Chardaan refit style downgrade option to reign the points cost in my guestimate is that it would be quite a respectable little ship for 24 points. The easiest slot to take off for the -3 points is a torpedo slot, but the modification slot might be a good choice if one of our design goals is not overpowering Corran.

Tie-Bomber give it expanded payload that fills a torp/missile slot "Action:restore expended torp/missile" for 0 points and I'm convinced you'll be onto a winner. It becomes a ship with a slow methodical attack rhythm as opposed to a device for throwing away points that might achieve something.

Tie Defender my only idea for this would be the discount systems slot title, but that's been done with the Tie Advanced. So scraping the barrel I guess we are into adding in a tractor beam modification or maybe an IG-88B type effect for the secondary weapons.

Corran already has a better firepower upgrade than FCS. The new Advanced Targeting computer. 2 free crits, plus whatever dice he rolls on 6 dice, and he gets to keep his Target Lock. I've been playing with the new upgrade and the Droid that gives you boost+target lock in list builders. Damage output could be good, especially if you fly a Green Squadron with Decoy and give Corran VI (double crit someone thats on their last 3-4 hull before they can shoot or decoy and let the rest of your list remove shields before double tapping for the kill) But arc-dodging/stacking defensive actions and regenerating shield is just too dang good.

Or just take Predator

I've been thinking... a crew slot on the bomber could make it absolutely deadly.

 bocatt wrote:
Corran already has a better firepower upgrade than FCS. The new Advanced Targeting computer...

The TIE Advanced only Advanced Targeting Computer?

winterdyne wrote:
I've been thinking... a crew slot on the bomber could make it absolutely deadly.

Seems a logical choice. So would something that gives a TL after expending a TL... though that scum Y-Wing pilot already has that as a pilot ability.

So, a free title that gives the Bomber a System Upgrade slot meaning it can equip FCS? (Or any other SU card.)

 Azreal13 wrote:
So, a free title that gives the Bomber a System Upgrade slot meaning it can equip FCS? (Or any other SU card.)

I'm not sure that this would be enough to account for the fact that missiles and torps are severely overpriced.

No, but as has already been discussed, disposable secondaries have an issue that reaches beyond the Bomber, and assuming that issue is addressed, anything too strong my ultimately cause the Bomber to become too strong.

 Azreal13 wrote:
No, but as has already been discussed, disposable secondaries have an issue that reaches beyond the Bomber, and assuming that issue is addressed, anything too strong my ultimately cause the Bomber to become too strong.

What about a discount for missiles/torps/bombs past the first? The dial on a bomber is always going to be awful.

The dial on the Bomber, much like the Y Wing, is about right for what it is suppoosed to represent, on the few occasions I've flown them, I've never felt they were unduly bad.

Also, firing secondary weapons seldom requires you to engage in the sort of close quarters dog fighting where you really need a strong dial. It is much easier to keep a ship in arc at the sort of range that many torps or missiles require.

How about a rogue squadron title (0) that benefits formation flying - kinda like an inverted lone wolf? It feels thematic at the very least. Formation flying x-wings should be a thing in a game called x-wing!