The Imperial Guard - We Die Standing.....and not much else

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**BaronIveagh**

morganfreeman wrote:

Imperial Guard were never "Astra Militarum" until the codex was released. That name never showed up. Ever. Until this codex. And hilariously enough, it's barely present in the codex outside of the title.

It's there because they got their assess handed to them in the Chapterhouse Case. Seems that 'Imperial Guard' is too generic to copyright. So they're renaming everything to try and create copyrightable material.

**MajorStoffer**

BaronIveagh wrote:
morganfreeman wrote:

Imperial Guard were never "Astra Militarum" until the codex was released. That name never showed up. Ever. Until this codex. And hilariously enough, it's barely present in the codex outside of the title.

It's there because they got their assess handed to them in the Chapterhouse Case. Seems that 'Imperial Guard' is too generic to copyright. So they're renaming everything to try and create copyrightable material.

Which is itself an asinine decision. Imperial Guard isn't something you can copyright, but GW had brand recognition. If you google "Imperial Guard," you're going to get Cadians, Napoleon's Old Guard Grenadiers and a few references to Imperial Japan.

Sure, Astra Militarum will only get one result, but GW had recognition in common parlance, especially within the "nerd" community. Mention Imperial Guard in a sci-fi conversations, and you stand more than even chances of the other person thinking of 40k Imperial Guard, mention Astra Militarum and they'll say "bless you."

It's annoyed the veterans, confused people on the fringe and added nothing. Especially since even with renames, the CH case spelled it out that other companies can say what GW kit things are compatible with, designed in equal scale with or are equivalent to in wargear/aesthetic, etc. Renames really do nothing for them.

**hotsauceman1**

When you add forge world to imperial guard they become ungodly good. And all you need really is a single blob squad onot a skyshield landing pad.

**BaronIveagh**

hotsauceman1 wrote:
When you add forge world to imperial guard they become ungodly good. And all you need really is a single blob squad onot a skyshield landing pad.

Stormblade. a wide variety of good fliers. maybe a macharius. An allied Castigator. more stormblade.

Armored company list....

Automatically Appended Next Post:

MajorStoffer wrote:

It's annoyed the veterans, confused people on the fringe and added nothing. Especially since even with renames, the CH case spelled it out that other companies can say what GW kit things are compatible with, designed in equal scale with or are equivalent to in wargear/aesthetic, etc. Renames really do nothing for them.

But, as you may know, GW is all about trying to claim ownership of all of history and all of the future as their exclusive intellectual property. So they asked a lawyer if there was anything they could do at all when told they could not do that, and he said to rename gak.

**hotsauceman1**

Heavy mortars, artillery carriages, vultures, avdngers, sabres, hades, tons of great stuff for ig.

**God In Action**

hotsauceman1 wrote:
When you add forge world to imperial guard they become ungodly good. And all you need really is a single blob squad onot a skyshield landing pad.

As a player of the Siege Army DKoK list, I haven't got a clue what you base 'ungodly good' on. All the individually good units, Avenger, artillery batteries, etc., are good and effective for the points, but entirely comparable in power to the good units of standard codex units.

And Hades, good? It was god awful in the old rules, and the updated rules make it passable. Not used Sabres, but sure, my understanding is that they are amazing.

**MajorStoffer**

hotsauceman1 wrote:
Heavy mortars, artillery carriages, vultures, avdngers, sabres, hades, tons of great stuff for ig.

FW keeps my love for the Guard alive, but what they produce is ultimately limited to support units; even their alternate lists are predicated upon the core rules and GW conception of Guard, and that FW doesn't want to offer a flatly superior choice, hence the Korps, Elysians and D-99 being very, very specific armies, good at one thing and that's about it with lots of weaknesses built-in.

Ultimately, you can build a better guard list by relying to a heavier degree on Forgeworld, but with so many support units and the extreme weakness of your core "line" units, anything which can close will annihilate you all the same, and still leaves you totally unable to compete on objectives in Maelstrom.

**hotsauceman1**

well, let's see, str 10 ap1 with ignores cover is pretty good if you ask me, 5 more points and armourbane.

**God In Action**

hotsauceman1 wrote:
well, let's see, str 10 ap1 with ignores cover is pretty good if you ask me, 5 more points and armourbane.

Oh yes there is that, I must have deliberately repressed that thought, because with the changes to new Krieg orders I lost use of Fire on My Target

my anti-tank was based on this exact trick.

**BaronIveagh**

MajorStoffer wrote:
FW keeps my love for the Guard alive, but what they produce is ultimately limited to support units; even their alternate lists are predicated upon the core rules and GW conception of Guard, and that FW doesn't want to offer a flatly superior choice, hence the Korps, Elysians and D-99 being very, very specific armies, good at one thing and that's about it with lots of weaknesses built-in.

I'll see your Kreig and raise you an AC list. Cheap Russess as a troops choice, armored IG Orders, and vets all get tank hunter with cheap vendettas.

And did I mention STORMBLADE?

I love me a 96" no minimum distance str 10 AP 2 ten inch blast that for fairly cheap gives itself 4bs. With 9Hp. That can also switch firing modes as needed. Not quite shadowsword, but will make a mess of ye enemy units each turn.

**MajorStoffer**

BaronIveagh wrote:
MajorStoffer wrote:
FW keeps my love for the Guard alive, but what they produce is ultimately limited to support units; even their alternate lists are predicated upon the core rules and GW conception of Guard, and that FW doesn't want to offer a flatly superior choice, hence the Korps, Elysians and D-99 being very, very specific armies, good at one thing and that's about it with lots of weaknesses built-in.

I'll see your Kreig and raise you an AC list. Cheap Russess as a troops choice, armored IG Orders, and vets all get tank hunter with cheap vendettas.

And did I mention STORMBLADE?

I love me a 96" no minimum distance str 10 AP 2 ten inch blast that for fairly cheap gives itself 4bs. With 9Hp. That can also switch firing modes as needed. Not quite shadowsword, but will make a mess of ye enemy units each turn.

I ordered IA1 2nd Edition within 3 hours of it being available on the FW webstore. I'm intimately familiar with the Armoured Battlegroup, but the problem with that one is it either wins big or loses big, and isn't fun for a lot of people's armies to fight against. It's the one genuine cheesy thing the Guard can do while still being fluffy, but I only use it when someone is getting a little too full of themselves, and again, will almost auto-lose maelstrom due to no mobility.

**dark_red**

While I was gutted about the latest codex I still have a lot of fun and success playing guard

I feel all the imperial armies almost need allies to bring balance to an army these days where as crons, eldar and tau don't really need allies.

My main points of success with guard these days.
Blobs are crap, lots will disagree but imo they slow games down and don't do what much I can't achieve with other units

Mech vets work well in numbers if supported by a ccs and vets in cover with some ignore cover lascanons

Vultures are awsome

Agis with quad for some ignore cover abuse vs flyers

Wyverns, cheap and effective. Now with a fearsome rep so excellent for a cheap unit to pull drop pods away from other units.

Priests with allies can be borderline broken, dragio buffed to a 2++ that rerolls saves and hits on the charge for example

Vets in drop pods are funny

Scion cs with hotshot volley guns and coatez for awsome pod protection of vital assets. Potentially with ignores cover and prescience if powers and orders work out.

Also being smart with reserves, I see so many guard players just load the table vs pod armies and I never know why, limit there options, make them go for the target you want then crush them

Also night fighting can be very effective, we have ignore cover lascanons but that +1 save vs pods can be excellent when twinned with a well placed Agis

**BaronIveagh**

MajorStoffer wrote:

I ordered IA1 2nd Edition within 3 hours of it being available on the FW webstore. I'm intimately familiar with the Armoured Battlegroup, but the problem with that one is it either wins big or loses big, and isn't fun for a lot of people's armies to fight against. It's the one genuine cheesy thing the Guard can do while still being fluffy, but I only use it when someone is getting a little too full of themselves, and again, will almost auto-lose maelstrom due to no mobility.

I usually take some valks/vendettas and vets for that.

**God In Action**

MajorStoffer wrote:
BaronIveagh wrote:
MajorStoffer wrote:
FW keeps my love for the Guard alive, but what they produce is ultimately limited to support units; even their alternate lists are predicated upon the core rules and GW conception of Guard, and that FW doesn't want to offer a flatly superior choice, hence the Korps, Elysians and D-99 being very, very specific armies, good at one thing and that's about it with lots of weaknesses built-in.

I'll see your Kreig and raise you an AC list. Cheap Russess as a troops choice, armored IG Orders, and vets all get tank hunter with cheap vendettas.

And did I mention STORMBLADE?

I love me a 96" no minimum distance str 10 AP 2 ten inch blast that for fairly cheap gives itself 4bs. With 9Hp. That can also switch firing modes as needed. Not quite shadowsword, but will make a mess of ye enemy units each turn.

I ordered IA1 2nd Edition within 3 hours of it being available on the FW webstore. I'm intimately familiar with the Armoured Battlegroup, but the problem with that one is it either wins big or loses big, and isn't fun for a lot of people's armies to fight against. It's the one genuine cheesy thing the Guard can do while still being fluffy, but I only use it when someone is getting a little too full of themselves, and again, will almost auto-lose maelstrom due to no mobility.

On the mobility note: the latest incarnation of Conqueror variants sees them as Fast type Leman Russes, for 5 points cheaper even than an Eradicator. Can't a Fast AV14/13 vehicle solve some mobility problems? I'm thinking to give one Camo-netting, extra armour and a dozer blade, maybe Lascannon, and use one or two for racing between objectives taking pot shots in the meantime.

**BrianDavion**

MajorStoffer wrote:
BaronIveagh wrote:
morganfreeman wrote:

Imperial Guard were never "Astra Militarum" until the codex was released. That name never showed up. Ever. Until this codex. And hilariously enough, it's barely present in the codex outside of the title.

It's there because they got their assess handed to them in the Chapterhouse Case. Seems that 'Imperial Guard' is too generic to copyright. So they're renaming everything to try and create copyrightable material.

Which is itself an asinine decision. Imperial Guard isn't something you can copyright, but GW had brand recognition. If you google "Imperial Guard," you're going to get Cadians, Napoleon's Old Guard Grenadiers and a few references to Imperial Japan.

Sure, Astra Militarum will only get one result, but GW had recognition in common parlance, especially within the "nerd" community. Mention Imperial Guard in a sci-fi conversations, and you stand more than even chances of the other person thinking of 40k Imperial Guard, mention Astra Militarum and they'll say "bless you."

Maybe in the context of mini wargaming. but a lotta people are gonna think the Imperial guard from star wars too

**Vaktathi**

MajorStoffer wrote:
Soldiers of the Imperium hear me!

So, I am wondering about the general consensus about the health of the Imperial Guard these days - it appears to me the overall health and viability of the Guard is, well, rather low. I'm drawing this conclusion from how most, if not all of the Imperial Guard's niches/specialties have been severely out-done by other codexes, coupled with cripplingly bad internal balance in the 'dex.

A few observations:

Footguard. Dead as a doornail. Increase in anti-infantry firepower through 6th and 7th edition means that even blob squads don't last long. Ignore cover AP5, templates and other super-high volume of fire is so commonplace as to make guardsmen on foot free kills for the opponent. Necrons do a similar playstyle much better with super-high durability which is easily buffed to obscene levels. Skitarii look to offer an Imperial alternative in much the same way, being less durable but much more mobile and with higher firepower.

This has been my preferred playstyle for some time, and it really is just an exercise of removing models.

Mechguard. Traditional powerhouse of the Guard, still most powerful option but acutely out-done by other codexes. Eldar mech is faster, more durable with more reliable, longer-range shooting. Tau are also much more mobile with comparable firepower-per-point (if Devilfish were cheaper, it wouldn't be much of a competition). Chimera suffer from strong rules bias towards skimmers. Still viable against certain armies, but only Marines offer an arguably worse mechanized build in terms of mobility, durability and firepower, aside from those few armies where it is actually impossible.

Armoured. A good gunline, but in an edition where gunlines aren't quite as good as in the past, with a crippling weakness to melee, high mobility armies and Necrons. Leman Russes are cheap AV14 firepower platforms with good guns, but again, the skimmer bias is strong, and the lack of good infantry support means anything which can close will kill a gunline of tanks, and the 6'' max movement means mobility is virtually nil.

No other army has access to as much AV14 as Guard, and could be considered the one real unique capacity, but will lose to objectives quite often, and to a proper competitive build almost every time.

Aircav. the "TFG" tactic of 6th. Guard still has good access to fliers, but as most armies have AA options these days, and with the Vendetta nerfed as a transport leaves the Valkyrie as the only viable transport option. The relative increase in anti-infantry firepower also means veterans when dropped are less likely to accomplish anything of note, and their airborne fire support is greatly reduced against hard targets and other fliers. Still, however, the most viable build for Guard these days, and by far the most mobile, but has a lot of weaknesses which armies are much more capable of defeating than during its heydey in the early stages of 6th.

Aside from the main "builds" being less effective across the board, some have been completely removed or remain non-viable due to horrid internal balance. Stormtroopers, Ogryns/Bullgryns, all the SC's getting axed/nerfed, Ratlings (I actually liked them in 5th, but the heavy sniper nerfs? not anymore), Taurox, Hydra, Platoons, Commissar Lords, Commisars vs Priests. The book's a mess, awash with useless units and only a handful of decent ones; Pask Punisher, Vets in transports, non-ordnance Russes, Wyverns and...well that's kind of it.

What I would like to hear is what people have found to "work" with the Imperial Guard these days? With so few buffs, plenty of nerfs and no formation love from GW, the Guard barely function in a friendly environment anymore, nevermind against more competitive players. Almost everything they can do is done better by someone else, leaving only semi-effective, but exceptionally boring gunlines with will be out-gunlined by most other armies.

The combo of exceptionally bad fluff-builds, and only one, maybe two viable strong builds with huge weaknesses just makes it exceptionally disheartening to play the Imperial Guard these days, and considering the complete vanishing of Guard armies locally, I know I'm not alone.

I've been trying to run IG in 7th, but they're really not very good.

Tournament results bear this out fairly well. They make good "niche fillers" as allies for other armies, but as an army of their own they simply don't function very well.

The core game mechanics heavily favor skimmers over non-skimmer vehicles, and IG are largely reliant on exactly the type of vehicle that the core game rules make easiest to remove, medium AV11/12 non-skimmer vehicles. Meanwhile, the basic Guardsmen is only useful on a table if blobbed in a unit of 30-50 with a Fearless priest and a ton of upgrades. IG heavy weapons units largely remain as bad as they've ever been since the 3E reboot, being amongst the most expensive and least cost effective heavy weapons units in the game, while also largely being the easiest to kill and remove, especially with the increasing amount of Ignores Cover weaponry and multi-shot high BS and twin linked S6/7 guns (or, in the case of Eldar, all of these with the Wave Serpent).

IG have very little in the way of speed to deal with Maelstrom missions or some of the more absurdly fast units like Flyers, FMC's and Eldar Jetbikes.

Meanwhile, damage reduction in many other armies has dramatically increased (Jink, RP, Shrouded, increased T, etc) and IG firepower hasn't changed since 2009.

The AM book wasn't really much of an update. it just took out a grip of character and artillery, lowered costs on some Leman Russ tanks and upped costs on other units (Chimeras, Hellhound variants, flyers, infantry platoons and command squads) and largely left the big holes right where they were.

Really, the only thing IG have going for them is Wyverns, and even those usually only shine in dual-CAD lists.

BaronIveagh wrote:
MajorStoffer wrote:
FW keeps my love for the Guard alive, but what they produce is ultimately limited to support units; even their alternate lists are predicated upon the core rules and GW conception of Guard, and that FW doesn't want to offer a flatly superior choice, hence the Korps, Elysians and D-99 being very, very specific armies, good at one thing and that's about it with lots of weaknesses built-in.

I'll see your Kreig and raise you an AC list. Cheap Russess as a troops choice, armored IG Orders, and vets all get tank hunter with cheap vendettas.

The Armoured Battlegroup lists still uses the old 2009 points costs for all the Leman Russ tanks. I've run the army several times, but it's honestly not really all that good, particularly with just how vulnerable the army as a whole is to some of the very common CC units the game has now that can make base contact reliably turn 2 and effectively auto-kill anything they make base contact with, like Wraiths, TWC's, Bikers, etc.

hotsauceman1 wrote:
When you add forge world to imperial guard they become ungodly good. And all you need really is a single blob squad onot a skyshield landing pad.

There's some good stuff, but nothing that puts them on par with anything like Necrons, Daemons, or Eldar.

The name of the game in 7th is Skimmers, T5, FMC's, and Speed, of which IG largely has none.

**morganfreeman**

BrianDavion wrote:

Maybe in the context of mini wargaming. but a lotta people are gonna think the Imperial guard from star wars too

Honestly, as something of an avid nerd, I've never ever equated imperial guard to Starwars. Stormtroopers? Absolutely, but Imperial Guard? Never.

I mean I know there are guys with that name in the Starwards franchise.. But I actually had forgotten about them until you just mentioned them (at which point it came swimming back to me).

**fallinq**

Yeah, I don't think the Empire's forces in Star Wars are ever called Imperial Guard. Overall, GW's obsession with changing the easily recognized names for awkward sounding psuedo-latin, purely so they can copyright it, is just really dumb and makes the game seem more inaccessible to newcomers. I think the fact that everyone still calls stuff Imperial Guard almost nobody uses the new names is a pretty good indicator of how dumb it is.

**Lythrandire Biehrellian**

In regards to guard and maelstrom, place one of your objectives close to two long edges in opposite corners, one in the center outside of any area terrain. This will give you at least one home objective, one to unload on if someone claims it, and one to lob long range ordinance at. From there, board control. Move forward as fast as possible (mech vets, and blobs with "move, move, move!" Or "Forward, for the emperor!")

The enemy will only be able to place their objectives in similar places, giving you the opportunity to hold multiple objectives in your deployment zone. The guard should be able to utilize the vastly disparate ranges available to them, and if you are holding 3-4, objectives with 10- 20 man fearless objective secured units, statistically you should win the game.

The main thing going against the guard is the amount of str7 multi shot weapons on the competitive scene right now, with the eldar on the horizon, we can all hope the serpent shield gets a kick in the teeth.

**morganfreeman**

fallinq wrote:
Yeah, I don't think the Empire's forces in Star Wars are ever called Imperial Guard. Overall, GW's obsession with changing the easily recognized names for awkward sounding psuedo-latin, purely so they can copyright it, is just really dumb and makes the game seem more inaccessible to newcomers. I think the fact that everyone still calls stuff Imperial Guard almost nobody uses the new names is a pretty good indicator of how dumb it is.

It's not their forces at large. You know those kind-of-but-not-really Stormtroopers you only ever see near the emperor? The ones who are in red and have those robes?

Pretty sure those guys are called Imperial Guard in the SW universe.

**fallinq**

morganfreeman wrote:
fallinq wrote:
Yeah, I don't think the Empire's forces in Star Wars are ever called Imperial Guard. Overall, GW's obsession with changing the easily recognized names for awkward sounding psuedo-latin, purely so they can copyright it, is just really dumb and makes the game seem more inaccessible to newcomers. I think the fact that everyone still calls stuff Imperial Guard almost nobody uses the new names is a pretty good indicator of how dumb it is.

It's not their forces at large. You know those kind-of-but-not-really Stormtroopers you only ever see near the emperor? The ones who are in red and have those robes?

Pretty sure those guys are called Imperial Guard in the SW universe.

Oh yeah, those guys. I actually forgot about them.

Given that they're a rather minor part of the Star Wars universe, I wouldn't say they have more name recognition that 40k IG.

**BaronIveagh**

fallinq wrote:

Oh yeah, those guys. I actually forgot about them. Given that they're a rather minor part of the Star Wars universe, I wouldn't say they have more name recognition that 40k IG.

Not a fan of the EU are you?

**BlaxicanX**

I've read/watched/played at least 95% of the EU, and I can comfortably say that the Imperial Guard are an extremely small and niche part of the universe. There's like, one single comic line and a Timothy Zahn duology focused on them.

**ZebioLizard2**

BlaxicanX wrote:
I've read/watched/played at least 95% of the EU, and I can comfortably say that the Imperial Guard are an extremely small and niche part of the universe. There's like, one single comic line and a Timothy Zahn duology focused on them.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Emperor%27s_Royal_Guard

Might want to read up then, there's a bit more about them then that.

Either way it seems IG is pretty much in the case with CSM, everyone else is getting special rules.

**Vaktathi**

Yep, lots more new special rules/abilities, while at the same time the units and weapon types that the IG are really built around are the type of thing that the current set of core rules do not reward.

**ZebioLizard2**

Sadly for IG's various style's quite a bit would need to be changed to make it in line with others I mean even the basic and the elite are kinda poor and would need various things.

You've got a cruddence codex, you've got poor abhumans (ratlings, what are those again?), poor elites (Stormtroopers! Wait no), Poor fast attack (Pfft Horses!), and your various things are pretty much your old staples of 5th but worse. (Tanks tanks chimera's hope for the best).

They are supposed to represent the "base" medium of the setting, but the problem is they aren't cheap enough for it, and overall aren't really worth it. It's like the CSM codex except they were released two years after the fact.

At least kick hot-shot lasguns up to S4

**BlaxicanX**

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
BlaxicanX wrote:
I've read/watched/played at least 95% of the EU, and I can comfortably say that the Imperial Guard are an extremely small and niche part of the universe. There's like, one single comic line and a Timothy Zahn duology focused on them.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Emperor%27s_Royal_Guard

Might want to read up then, there's a bit more about them then that.

Either way it seems IG is pretty much in the case with CSM, everyone else is getting special rules.

Nothing in that article clashes with what I said. And for the record, I own every game, comic and novel listed in the source section of it.

**BaronIveagh**

I'll admit that the first time someone told me 'Imperial Guard' I pictured these guys, as opposed to Star Wars.

**hotsauceman1**

Also, if have a new good list. The horse list. Observatory death riders back by allied ig. They had and take objectives, and are pretty cheap.

**Vaktathi**

Eh, DKoK Death Riders aren't really good at holding anything, they're really "fire and forget" units more than anything else. Good against some things, but very easily removed and worthless after their initial charge. They are better than codex Rough Riders though.