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If you play smart with them they can be difficult to remove.

Do you have a particular formula for keeping them alive? I mean, really, they're W2 Carapace vets for twice the points of a Carapace vet. There's nothing about them that's extremely inherently survivable on a 7E table. I've been using them for almost two years with the Assault Brigade list, and I'm happy if they even just live to get off a charge..

Ruins typically with the officer giving the dig in order.
but their point isn't to get a charge off, it's to hold ogjectives.you use artillery to kill of their main threats. Lots of los terrain too, like any good tournament table should have.

That'll give them a 3+ cover save, sure, which under some circumstances isn't bad, I'll grant, but relies a whole lot on having ruins where you need it to be, having an officer unit nearby, and getting off the order on Ld8. That's very situational and not at all impossible to work around, and if anything gets into combat with them, they're probably going to fold quickly.

There's also a grip of relatively common weapons/methods that will still wound them on 2's, inflict ID on them, and ignore their armor, cover, and FNP.

True, buts it's also msu spam, you cantake just one them with a single unit. Take like four and just run them around.
it's difficult, but I kinda made it work for an itc game

The Death Riders are better than Carapace Veterans for holding objectives and equivalent in points. 85 points for 10 wounds with 4+/6++, versus 75 points for 10 wounds with 4+. You get a lot for that extra 10 points, in fact about the only advantage footslogging Vets have over Death Riders is that Vets can take 3 special weapons. Don't forget the Death Rider Command Squad, which for an extra 15 points becomes a Junior Officers (for that Dig In! +1 cover save order). Of course as I allude to by specifying 'footslogging' Vets, the Vets are in my opinion worse in themselves, but can play in different ways which can make them usefully adaptable between games.

The good thing is that the Death Rider Squadron detachment which gives them Objective Secured has no compulsory Troops tax.

Keep in mind that the Carapace Vets aren't losing 2 wounds to every failed save against an S6+ weapon (what the DR's also don't get their 6+FNP against). Honestly, the biggest thing is the DKoK morale special rules, far more than anything else.

That said, neither unit is exactly particularly spectacular at holding objectives

So, as it is with most great thoughts, I remembered something while in the shower as a good comparison between standard guardsmen and a guard-equivalent: The Solar Auxilia; the semi-elite equivalent in the Horus Heresy spinoff by Forgeworld. Veterans have their uses, and the problem lies less in themselves than the army around them, but few can argue standard guardsmen really aren't worth it anymore, especially "improved" variants from FW which are more expensive.

The Solar Auxilia, however, in particular the standard Lasrifle Section is excellent fodder for comparison, as they are the same ppm and fill a similar niche; basic line troops who form the "base" of your army, whether mechanised, gunline or whatever.

So, what do these dudes do to the uninitiated?

BS/WS3 S3 T3 W1 Sv 4+ Ld 8. Carapace armoured guardsmen, in effect.

BUT, unlike guardsmen they have rules and wargear which reflect their role, but DO NOT have orders.

BS2 Snapshots, WS4 when in base-to-base, can re-roll failed leadership when within 6'' of members of the same "Tercio" (platoons with three different unit types; the lasrifles, a 10-man flamer unit and pseudo-veterans, no "PCS" equivalent, single sergeant upgraded to Troop Master with better stats, extra wound). Their "Lasrifles" have two fire modes by default: Rapid Fire 30'', Heavy 2 36'', can not buy special weapons of any kind, but can for 25 points for the squad gain an extra firemode which is basically a single-shot 18'' multilaser shot with a small chance of "burning out" and being unusable, and can not be fired every turn.

So, then, what do these guys offer? Slightly more durable guardsmen with better leadership, especially when deployed as full tercios who offer long-range but individually weak firepower, with an "oh gak" firemode for MCs and big nasties for a notable price (the upgrade is 25% of the unit's original price), with their other platoon options offering real, viable choices (unlike HWTs, for instance, and SWS are a pale shadow of Veterans). Oh, and their dedicated transport is a Malcador-chassis vehicle which can be almost as hard to kill as a wave serpent, and can opt to half its capacity to 10 for a demolisher cannon (!) as its primary armament, or instead buy an Aegis Defense Line as its "dedicated transport"

Now these guys are clearly balanced around the HH environment, but they offer a clear example how with a few tweaks you could make an attractive basic infantry. The Skitarii "Everything has its own special rule" approach isn't what I'm angling for here, but a few examples of mechanical "uniqueness" would go a long way to making Guardsmen a lot more viable.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Keep in mind that the Carapace Vets aren't losing 2 wounds to every failed save against an S6+ weapon (what the DR's also don't get their 6+FNP against). Honestly, the biggest thing is the DKoK morale special rules, far more than anything else.

That said, neither unit is exactly particularly spectacular at holding objectives

Yeah, I'm certainly not claiming that Death Riders are excellent objective holders over multiple turns, but I think that with their frag grenades, lances, ObjSec and 12" movement you can certainly expect a couple of turns of objective scoring with them. Where they shine most is steal an objective from an enemy unit already holding it. Then they get targeted and die. I don't use mine with the expectation of lasting the whole game (although you might be surprised by the number of times they do), but I expect them to grab a couple of objectives early on, counter charge to buy my artillery an extra turn of shooting, and neuter any units like drop-podding Sternguard or 3+ save monstrous creatures which thought it would be a good idea to get close.

 God In Action wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Keep in mind that the Carapace Vets aren't losing 2 wounds to every failed save against an S6+ weapon (what the DR's also don't get their 6+FNP against). Honestly, the biggest thing is the DKoK morale special rules, far more than anything else.

That said, neither unit is exactly particularly spectacular at holding objectives

Yeah, I'm certainly not claiming that Death Riders are excellent objective holders over multiple turns, but I think that with their frag grenades, lances, ObjSec and 12" movement you can certainly expect a couple of turns of objective scoring with them. Where they shine most is steal an objective from an enemy unit already holding it. Then they get targeted and die. I don't use mine with the expectation of lasting the whole game (although you might be surprised by the number of times they do), but I expect them to grab a couple of objectives early on, counter charge to buy my artillery an extra turn of shooting, and neuter any units like drop-podding Sternguard or 3+ save monstrous creatures which thought it would be a good idea to get close.

I think they are just too expensive for their utility. They aren't bad, but they aren't particularly good either. The issue is anyone who knows what Death Riders are knows that they should just neuter them at a distance. And it isn't hard to do so.

They should really get Scout and a point or two off their price. Like 75 base 90 command. We are the only guys who doesn't get a bonus T for being mounted and it is BS, but if we were cheaper I would be okay with just the two wound thing. Scout would really help them not only get into position, but also get to cover to avoid a first turn alpha strike. They could also utilize outflank as well.

Regular Rough Riders should get 2W and the same. Turning them into a platoon with a command squad would be nice as well. It would really turn the unit around into something useful instead of being a joke.

I played an 1850 point list recently, with the strategy of using many vehicles, surrounded by infantry to provide cover saves to the tanks, prevent them from being assaulted, but also able to roll as one big blob towards the centre before splitting apart to chase down other objectives. Admittedly, my infantry were exposed and apt to die in droves, but because my opponent was using such an elite list, he didn't want to focus his units' firepower on the infantry that had such little damage output. Their very crappiness kept them alive!

I actively placed my objectives near the centre of the board and ground forward for 3 turns until I was on top. Since all of the Vehicles had intervening models for cover saves, and I lead with a pair of Russ, things survived pretty well. I focused on trying to have as many High Strength weapons with 36" + range as I could, so that once I got to the middle, I could reach out and touch anything that I needed to.

It worked very well! I had my first victory against "White Scars with a Knight", which was pretty exciting. It's a departure from the way I used to play, and runs contrary to the traditional wisdom of keeping as much distance between yourself and your opponent as possible... but with all of your firepower able to support each other, my opponent remarked that he was afraid to approach! With the space of my infantry surrounding my tanks, the bikes weren't able to get close enough for melta shots to be as effective as he'd like, and assaulting an infantry squad simply led to my "netting" them by surrounding them with a different infantry squad, pinning them in place and allowing me to gain LOS with many units.

Once I reached the centre, I had a unit of Vets in Chimera continue forward to support some Scions I had dropped in, as well as a Vendetta with PCS to secure a "deep" objective. The central bulk held an objective, and provided fire support.

The infantry continued to "net" a SM Biker Librarian [Invisibility] with a Biker Chapter Master Smash-face, preventing them from making meaningful progress towards the central objective.

On the whole, it worked very well. Keep your eyes open for an updated list in the forum!

I'm still quite fond of foot guard, I run a blob of 50 guardsmen with 5 power axes on the seargents, a priest and an inquisitor with servo skulls and rad grenades. It's pretty tough and only rocks in around 400 or so points. The obligatory PCS can be given flamers and ride in a vendetta.

I like to take a couple of eradicators (sooo cheap) to ride with pask for cleaning out lines of fire warriors etc.

My group is neither power-game central nor fluff all-stars, and my IG seem to do just fine, except against Eldar.

Same here, I haven't been having many problems w/ my IG. We're probably middle of the road as far as competitiveness goes. I usually have pask pun w/ exec, 2 chimeras of vets, 2 vendettas, and a wyvern (buying a second soon, I've been loving this thing) as my go to units, when I run my guard lists.

I just wish they didn't cut so many special characters.

 Ol'Dirty wrote:
Same here, I haven't been having many problems w/ my IG. We're probably middle of the road as far as competitiveness goes. I usually have pask pun w/ exec, 2 chimeras of vets, 2 vendettas, and a wyvern (buying a second soon, I've been loving this thing) as my go to units, when I run my guard lists.

I just wish they didn't cut so many special characters.

Guard very much were in the 5th edition mold of "variation through emblamatic characters." Al-Rahem and Creed had unique orders and means of getting troops up the field, Chenkov had "Men, I need more men!" Harker made for one expensive but powerful veteran squad and so on. Several of these characters still exist, but have lost their trademark abilities (Harker is now a 55 point heavy bolter, for instance). While other codexes have lost the dependence on characters, they have gained some other means of customization or flexibility. Chaos can use marked generic HQs for Cult troops, Marines have chapter tactics, BA, Tyranids, Necrons, Space Wolves and, to a lesser extent, Orks, have formations or alternate FOC to build in different ways.

Guard? Nothing. Horrid internal balance, no real strategy-altering capacity, no alternate FOC, 2 mostly worthless formations and no promise of any sort of shakeup in the forseeable future. Tyranids got a gak book, but at least they got plenty of post-release support (ignoring the cost of said post release support.....).

By the way a lot of the codex got formations or supplements is there a plan for an IG one ?

http://bloodofkittens.com/formation-compendium/

The reality is that the IG/AM codex got hit by the legal bat. Everything uncopyrightable was removed.

It is a codex designed to be taken as Allies to another codex.

No dataslates, two pathetic formations.

Acres and acres of history ignored.

We lost so much, and gained so little.

Don't forget that they neglected to fix almost any of the poor internal balance issues, nerfed a grip of stuff just weeks before 7th because of performance in 5th, and pretty much all the new stuff was superfluous and not what anyone was really looking for

I'm not sure that all o this is fair. Sure, we may not have the most OP codex out tere, but that doesn't mean you are doomed to boring games where your opponent wipes the floor with you. The blobs are still very good at outlasting your opponent's troops, ad if you give a first rank fore order to a blob of fifty, you that's at least 100 shots, of which on average 50 will hit. A unit of 12 fire warriors (I'm using that example as everyone seems to think tau are a big competitor) will than have to make 25 saves. At 4 up saves, that's 12.5 failed saves, and one dead unit. And if you want a more long lasting unit, with increased firepower and mobility, go for vets in chimeras. One build you coukd use is having a HB on the vets, and two HBs on the chimera. That will shred eldar or tau infantry. Or take plasma or melta vets. Yes its more expensive, but very effective. Onky a week ago, the one melta I took in a unit of vets blew up a land raide on its first shot. The unit died to the assault terminators who got out, but they were stranded in the middle of the board at turn four. With no ranged capability and most of my army on the far side of the board, they were then useless. And tahts just two things you could do. There is still the artillery, Wyverns and Basilisks are both amazing at killing light infanty and MEQs respectiveley. Then there are the tanks, the eradicator being ridiculously cheap and having the ultimate light infantry killing gun. Then there is the basic russ for MEQs or just the executioner, which will kill almost anything out there. The elites section is, ill admit, pretty bad except for the slabshield bullgryns that can be combined with an ADL to give super cover saves. Or just as a extra cover save for an an avancing horde of infantry and tanks, with the tanks getting the most out of it. The vendetta is very good at killing tanks, and can drop a PCS that has been decked out with 4 flamers, meltas or some other alternative taht works well at killing things. Then there are all the cool extra HQ choices that aren't actually HQ slot fillers. And dont forget the power of orders that the CCS brings.
Basically, what im trying to say is that we may not have OP lists or cool formations and FOCs, but we arent bad, not by a long shot.

(Sorry if this is horribly spelled)

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
I'm not sure that all o this is fair.

Is pretending that "overpowered cheese" and "dog gak weak" are the only metrics on the scale any more fair?

A bunch of russes with preferred enemy is a good formation imo.

Creeeeed has a point, my vets with the right orders have taken out some big targets. Massed firepower from two squads of veterans combined with bring it down and first rank fire still can do wonders.

Honestly, Sergeants in Veteran Squads need to be able to issue the basic orders.

Aside from Vendettas and Valks, what kind of air power can Guard muster?
Vultures- what are people finding works this edition? Quad MRPs? Twin punishers? Gearing it up for AT?

Avengers- Decent?

What Lightning chassis are available? I know the HH Voss pattern is deadly for both AT and AA work.

How are Hydras?

I never had problems with playing Guard. I think combined arms is the key.
I usually run a list composed mostly of LR Tanks, protected by a small screening force of infantry and backed up by plenty of air support from Vultures and Vendettas. When I have the points to spare, I also add a few assault squads in Valkyries, they can really be amazing as they are sometimes able to easily take out the most powerful units of the enemy.

Also, Deathstrike missiles make for awesome distractions, and if they get to fire they are even more awesome.

Overall, I think that IG infantry sucks, but their weakness is made up for by the amount of heavy armour and powerful flyers you can bring to the battlefield. IG don't have it so bad compared to some other factions *cough*Orks*cough*

 Iron_Captain wrote:
I never had problems with playing Guard. I think combined arms is the key.
I usually run a list composed mostly of LR Tanks, protected by a small screening force of infantry and backed up by plenty of air support from Vultures and Vendettas. When I have the points to spare, I also add a few assault squads in Valkyries, they can really be amazing as they are sometimes able to easily take out the most powerful units of the enemy.

Also, Deathstrike missiles make for awesome distractions, and if they get to fire they are even more awesome.

Overall, I think that IG infantry sucks, but their weakness is made up for by the amount of heavy armour and powerful flyers you can bring to the battlefield. IG don't have it so bad compared to some other factions *cough*Orks*cough*

Honestly, I feel Orks got by better with the new dex more than IG. Ork infantry is still pretty good for the most part. People may rag on Mob Rule but it does its job well, short of Fear tests. Plus we got a whole bunch of formations that help us either blob up even better than guard (Green Tide) or go zoom zoom in your face by T2 (Battlewagon Blitz Brigade). Plus with Painboyz in our units we're even more resilient as a whole than our last book. Internal balance isn't that bad either comparatively, since the only few duds we have are Nobz and Killa Kanz (and even in the case of Killa Kanz its mitigated by Dread Mob) compared to the entire elites slot and the fast attack slot only having the flyers and maybe Armoured Sentinels being the decent choices.

My IG are comfy lately, and I feel like we have way too many options to really complain about them. I can run mech vet lists, a blob lists, several different MSU platoon lists, air cav lists, leman russ heavy lists, reserve heavy lists, superheavy centric lists, and more. Add in IG orders and maybe also MT orders and you can almost never get bored with them. Well, at least I can't. But I'll admit, I'm quite the IG fanboy.

How are Hydras?

Horrible. They got nerfed and no one knows why.

Interestingly, despite people saying the infantry sucks, it's the infantry that kill things in my lists. I can bring russes, but then the good ol serpents just jink and that's that. The fearless lascannon blobs drop a serpent a turn. The vets pressuring elite infantry. I have tried every russ, and they offer more of a support firepower compared to my direct damage from guard blobs/vets. Pask is pretty good, but my main opponent is eldar/de, and webway fire dragons have made me realize how expensive pask really is. But it goes both ways. He barely uses hornets any more since they are one ignores cover order away from death. Add an inquisitor and a priest to a 40 man blob and suddenly wraiths have to consider if it's worth the charge.

Mobility is somewhat an issue. I do use valks and vendettas to drop in units along with scions. I can usually start fights all over the board if I want however.

The only thing I feel guard lack, is support from GW. They took many of the characters, and there is a lack of formations. No new supporting material, just stuff we can ally.