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 Toofast wrote:
Reduced revenue during a time of increased release pace, rising prices and an overall market showing an upward trend is a fairly good indicator that less people are buying GW product. I guess in your alternate reality, its more likely that there's more people buying now, they're just buying a couple pots of paint a year. It's not like this is all guesswork. GW's financial reports are public and organizations like ICV2 track how much of each product line is being sold by contacting retailers. No, we don't know exactly how many people bought GW product this year compared to last. What we do know is that GW sold far less product. At the end of the day, does it really matter whether you have more, less or the same amount of customers when your revenue is tanking? If 1 person bought £100mil of GW product or 100,000,000 people each bought £1 of GW product the end result is the same. If that amount isn't enough to cover your costs, your business is failing. As with most things in life, the first step to solving the problem is admitting you have one. GW refuses to do this, which is why their revenue will continue to fall (despite your predictions otherwise or your proclamations that "there are more players than ever"). I've said this before, I believe to you; repeating that snow is black, the sky is green, grass is blue and water freezes at 47F loud enough and long enough does not in any way make it fact, no matter how badly you wish it were.

Yeah, officially GW refuses admitting that there is a problem. I hope you don't seriously think they haven't admitted it internally despite some chairmans preamble propaganda directed at investors and other bits written in order to give a positive, firm image of the company ( which is what companies do ) because then it's you who is in an alternate dimension where official statements are the all encompassing truth.

I find it hilarious with some of you how paradoxical you are: You believe GW's official statements and data when it coincides with your personal bias and agenda, but should they officially state something positive or something you don't like, you deem it a lie. It's even more hilarious how you can't see it yourselves.

GW says they do no market research, are all about teenagers and miniatures. X believes them and uses it as a tool in arguments.

GW says they have no issues, that the downfall is only temporary, or anything relatively similiar. X doesn't believe them and uses it as a tool in arguments.

X is therefore a paradoxical idiot and there is no squirming away from it from a logical point of view, period.

I somehow have a feeling that in your argument regarding the "upward trend" be that measured however, it has not been taken into account that the smaller a company is the easier it is to grow, both in profit and size. GW's competitors and their revenue are but a fraction of theirs. Regarding your snow is black, the same goes for wishing to believe that reduced sales means people quitting. It doesn't, wishing wont make it so. And that's what I pointed out. Do you now register this? If not, here goes for the fourth time:

 Toofast wrote:

At the end of the day, does it really matter whether you have more, less or the same amount of customers when your revenue is tanking?

It matters when someone claims their revenue is tanking because of people quitting a game and nothing else, which is what I responded to. On a general level, no, it does not matter.

If after this you do not grasp that I was responding to this one specific claim, then I guess tough gak.

Yoyoyo wrote:
The IP will outlive GW. Guaranteed.

It might just be a broken and beaten cancerous mess that no one cares about

With no backing it's pretty hard to say how credible it is. It also doesn't take into account changes in the last 2 years.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
It might just be a broken and beaten cancerous mess that no one cares about

lol! Probably true for a while, then again XCOM took a 20 year break and it was glorious on the return. So I never get too negative

Yoyoyo wrote:
With no backing it's pretty hard to say how credible it is. It also doesn't take into account changes in the last 2 years.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
It might just be a broken and beaten cancerous mess that no one cares about

lol! Probably true for a while, then again XCOM took a 20 year break and it was glorious on the return. So I never get too negative

I came back to say this: I loved the new XCOM game that came out for 360.

 RunicFIN wrote:

 Toofast wrote:
Reduced revenue during a time of increased release pace, rising prices and an overall market showing an upward trend is a fairly good indicator that less people are buying GW product. I guess in your alternate reality, its more likely that there's more people buying now, they're just buying a couple pots of paint a year. It's not like this is all guesswork. GW's financial reports are public and organizations like ICV2 track how much of each product line is being sold by contacting retailers. No, we don't know exactly how many people bought GW product this year compared to last. What we do know is that GW sold far less product. At the end of the day, does it really matter whether you have more, less or the same amount of customers when your revenue is tanking? If 1 person bought £100mil of GW product or 100,000,000 people each bought £1 of GW product the end result is the same. If that amount isn't enough to cover your costs, your business is failing. As with most things in life, the first step to solving the problem is admitting you have one. GW refuses to do this, which is why their revenue will continue to fall (despite your predictions otherwise or your proclamations that "there are more players than ever"). I've said this before, I believe to you; repeating that snow is black, the sky is green, grass is blue and water freezes at 47F loud enough and long enough does not in any way make it fact, no matter how badly you wish it were.

Yeah, officially GW refuses admitting that there is a problem. I hope you don't seriously think they haven't admitted it internally despite some chairmans preamble propaganda directed at investors and other bits written in order to give a positive, firm image of the company ( which is what companies do ) because then it's you who is in an alternate dimension where official statements are the all encompassing truth.

I find it hilarious with some of you how paradoxical you are: You believe GW's official statements and data when it coincides with your personal bias and agenda, but should they officially state something positive or something you don't like, you deem it a lie. It's even more hilarious how you can't see it yourselves.

GW says they do no market research, are all about teenagers and miniatures. X believes them and uses it as a tool in arguments.

GW says they have no issues, that the downfall is only temporary, or anything relatively similiar. X doesn't believe them and uses it as a tool in arguments.

X is therefore a paradoxical idiot and there is no squirming away from it from a logical point of view, period.

I somehow have a feeling that in your argument regarding the "upward trend" be that measured however, it has not been taken into account that the smaller a company is the easier it is to grow, both in profit and size. GW's competitors and their revenue are but a fraction of theirs. Regarding your snow is black, the same goes for wishing to believe that reduced sales means people quitting. It doesn't, wishing wont make it so. And that's what I pointed out. Do you now register this? If not, here goes for the fourth time:

 Toofast wrote:

At the end of the day, does it really matter whether you have more, less or the same amount of customers when your revenue is tanking?

It matters when someone claims their revenue is tanking because of people quitting a game and nothing else, which is what I responded to. On a general level, no, it does not matter.

If after this you do not grasp that I was responding to this one specific claim, then I guess tough gak.

Except I NEVER MADE THAT CLAIM. I claimed it's a good indicator, not a black and white fact or the only reason. YOU claimed that there are more people buying/playing than ever before. I asked for your data. You provided none, put words in my mouth and then argued against a point I never claimed (which seems to be par for the course when trying to have a debate with you). Say again, show me your data that more people are playing. If you can't do that (which we all know you can't, or you would've just done that instead of typing pages about a statement I never made), then I have nothing else to say.

Still waiting to hear his evidence that there are more players.
Fact: GW is losing sales.
Not a fact: GW is gaining players.

But we've all been down this road. RunicFin makes outlandish claims that he can't back up. Resorts to attacks such as "morons" and "Four Horsemen." And then he sidetracks the conversation to something else when people call him on it.

For the sake of getting back on track, let's skip to the end and say, GW is NOT gaining more players and they are losing sales. The argument here is: Are rubbish rules causing the loss of revenue?

 Toofast wrote:

Except I NEVER MADE THAT CLAIM.

No, you did not. Another user did, I didn't say it was you. I responded to his statement about "reduced sales = people quitting" only, and you then asked what does it matter what causes reduced sales. I then responded it matters when you respond to the specific statement of "reduced sales = people quitting" - which is quite obvious.

And I didn't put words in your mouth, you got the idea I said you made that very claim from your own head, don't blame me for your reading comprehension issues. Copypaste me the bit where I said it was you who claimed that "reduced sales = quitting the game" or shut up about it.

There are more players because wargaming is in an upward trend. Or do you believe that the reality is that the best selling tabletop wargame on the planet has less players than before in a time of an upward trend of wargaming, whereas the less popular games have more? Laughable.

 MWHistorian wrote:
But we've all been down this road. RunicFin makes outlandish claims that he can't back up. Resorts to attacks such as "morons" and "Four Horsemen." And then he sidetracks the conversation to something else when people call him on it.

Firstly, I didn't attack anyone first here, period. The conversation was sidetracked after 2 pages, fact. So how about you stop talking out of your arse. You're the master of intentional misinterpretation and sidetracking things from there - it's oxymoronic for you to to blame others for it. If you read the thread you wouldn't be making these claims that aren't even true.

 Accolade wrote:
I came back to say this: I loved the new XCOM game that came out for 360.

well at least in this epic thread, at least two of us ended up getting along

I need to find some minis with baseball caps to do a proper conversion!

 MWHistorian wrote:
GW is NOT gaining more players

Did you just state that no new people started playing Warhammer 40,000 this year for example ( seeing as someone starting the game 2 seconds ago means there are now more players than there were 3 seconds ago, unless someone quit inbetween ) or what might your timeframe for your claim be? What is your evidence for this outlandish claim?

Will you sidetrack the conversation instead of providing this evidence? If you don't provide said evidence, did you just do what you accuse me of, make an outlandish claim and then not back it up, therefore ending up completely paradoxical on all 3 accounts?

Guess I got you by the balls, huh.

 MWHistorian wrote:
Still waiting to hear his evidence that there are more players.
Fact: GW is losing sales.
Not a fact: GW is gaining players.

But we've all been down this road. RunicFin makes outlandish claims that he can't back up. Resorts to attacks such as "morons" and "Four Horsemen." And then he sidetracks the conversation to something else when people call him on it.

For the sake of getting back on track, let's skip to the end and say, GW is NOT gaining more players and they are losing sales. The argument here is: Are rubbish rules causing the loss of revenue?

It is a fact that GW has lower revenues. It actually isn't a fact that there are fewer players for 40k. It might be. But we don't know, just like we don't actually know if there are more or less P3 or Infinitylayers either because sales != players. We don't even know the WHFB vs 40k split.

It IS a fact that there are WAY more people that want to play at my home than I would ever allow, and way more people who would like to play 40k with me than I would ever have time for. Two other facts: GW also produces models I like at a faster clip than I can paint (maybe if I quit my day job, lol), and I am pretty happy playing the game and modelling.

Oh yes, and my wife says I am not allowed to concert any more of the house into gaming purposes

So from a practical perspective and being totally self centered, the hobby is all good.

 Talys wrote:
It IS a fact that there are WAY more people that want to play at my home than I would ever allow, and way more people who would like to play 40k with me than I would ever have time for. Two other facts: GW also produces models I like at a faster clip than I can paint (maybe if I quit my day job, lol), and I am pretty happy playing the game and modelling.

Oh yes, and my wife says I am not allowed to concert any more of the house into gaming purposes

So from a practical perspective and being totally self centered, the hobby is all good.

I've noticed the same. The game still has flaws like it always has, it still requires cooperation with people to make more sensible, like it always has. There are also more fresh players in the areas I play than ever before. The tournaments and their coverages are also getting bigger and better each year, especially in terms of presentation and the "show" aspect of it all. Don't think they used to stream the top tables 6 years ago ( possible I missed it though. ) There are more releases than before, and counterintuitively to the "just teenagers are our customers" they are also publishing armies generally more in the interest of the more mature audience which is what Forgeworld usually does ( Adeptus Mechanicus. ) 7th edition is, afaic, better than 6th, the miniatures are still some of the best you can find and the universe too. The new codices aside from the wraiths mistake are actually fairly balanced against eachother. I get to play many times a week and participate in tournaments monthly if I so wish. Can't complain.

 RunicFIN wrote:

The game not being tailored to suit the needs of people who don't have friends, can't make any, can't join a group for god knows what reason and on a general level can't interact with strangers in a way that doesn't cause a hostile enviroment during a match is nothing odd. Most people are just fine, and when you do meet that rotten apple abusing the game, either bite your teeth, try to find a way to make him stop, don't play him, or my personal favorite, become better than him and crush him with his own tricks. Alternatively if you can't do any of those, quit the game. If you don't want to quit the game nor try any of the options mentioned above and instead choose to cause yourself suffering and complain about these very things on the internet without doing anything of the above, then all I can do is wonder what is wrong with you.

You had me until this part. That loaded first statement means you're actively a major detractor in the gaming hobby and you absolutely do not even fathom the depth of hobby outside of the narrow margin that will be 40k in the coming years. I hope you get out more and experience the wide variety of new and upcoming wonderful games.

The only thing rotten is how you're presenting yourself, from what I've seen.

 TheKbob wrote:

You had me until this part. That loaded first statement means you're actively a major detractor in the gaming hobby and you absolutely do not even fathom the depth of hobby outside of the narrow margin that will be 40k in the coming years. I hope you get out more and experience the wide variety of new and upcoming wonderful games.

How does some people being unable to make their 40K hobby into a functioning entirety ( while others can, and with ease ) and then blaming the game for it make me a detractor? I'm sorry, that doesn't make any sense to me. I have more players willing to play almost daily that I can possibly spare the time to play with, and like I mentioned before I haven't had any issues even remotely similiar to some you read from here. Next to that, with that final condescending remark about going out more and experiencing the wide variety of new and upcoming games, how do you know what games I play? Have we met?

Aside from Warmachine/Hordes ofcourse, which I mentioned earlier. How do you know I don't fathom the hobby outside of 40K? You just presumed.

About presentation, this is the internet, and more specifically, DakkaDakka. It's rare a thread where it pays off to be all mushy.

 RunicFIN wrote:

 Toofast wrote:

Except I NEVER MADE THAT CLAIM.

No, you did not. Another user did, I didn't say it was you. I responded to his statement about "reduced sales = people quitting" only, and you then asked what does it matter what causes reduced sales. I then responded it matters when you respond to the specific statement of "reduced sales = people quitting" - which is quite obvious.

And I didn't put words in your mouth, you got the idea I said you made that very claim from your own head, don't blame me for your reading comprehension issues. Copypaste me the bit where I said it was you who claimed that "reduced sales = quitting the game" or shut up about it.

There are more players because wargaming is in an upward trend. Or do you believe that the reality is that the best selling tabletop wargame on the planet has less players than before in a time of an upward trend of wargaming, whereas the less popular games have more? Laughable.

 MWHistorian wrote:
But we've all been down this road. RunicFin makes outlandish claims that he can't back up. Resorts to attacks such as "morons" and "Four Horsemen." And then he sidetracks the conversation to something else when people call him on it.

Firstly, I didn't attack anyone first here, period. The conversation was sidetracked after 2 pages, fact. So how about you stop talking out of your arse. You're the master of intentional misinterpretation and sidetracking things from there - it's oxymoronic for you to to blame others for it. If you read the thread you wouldn't be making these claims that aren't even true.

Just because wargaming is in an upward trend doesn't mean GW is. Guns are in an upward trend too. Remington, one of the largest gun manufacturers in existence, has been closing down production facilities and subsidiaries because they're losing business to the other brands responsible for the growth in the overall market. To say that "wargaming is going up, so GW must be going up too" is just asinine and a much greater leap than saying "GW's revenue and profit are down, that probably means less people are buying their products".


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, yes I do believe that the less popular wargames have more players relative to several years ago. The ICV2 numbers back this up. Warhammer 40k and fantasy were always #1 and 2 respectively on the ICV2 quarterly sales report. Now WFB has dropped out of the top 5 and 40k is quickly losing ground to WMH and X wing.

I think we've had about enough of this thread.