Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Giuard are far from weak. They suffer in tournament play due to high model counts, and not having any real deathstar style units to themselves. Also guard are just expensive to buy, so there's that too.There's a couple of good IG players here, but if you schedule a game with them, you better set aside 4 hours or so, and even more if your opponent is not a fast player. It's pretty insane having someone field 1850 of foot slogging guard. IG don't really have a large, easy to use unit. I guarantee you that you'll see the guard returning as more of the big tournaments get more flexible about army compositions. Super cheap infantry and really big guns are a nice addition to any force.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and veterans with plasma have given me a bloody lip several times. Don't underestimate humans!

Weak?

I don't know much about them, but they are far from weak.

The IG can pull a few fancy tricks, like gaking out more than a hundred infantry and covering half the board in bodies, and having loads of AV14 on the board, but it only takes a player with a few fancy tricks of his own and a decent rounded list and the whole IG army falls apart. Drop pods, Riptides, melee sponges that can win any fight with a ratio of models to Guardsmen against them. Effective anti-heavy-tank weaponry, cover save abuse (try Venom Thropes), flying monstrous creatures, the list goes on.

You can tailor a list that cope with most or perhaps all of the things I just listed but that's besides the point. If you're just going down the FLGS, its not sporting to tailor your list in the first place and secondly your all comers list can just be rock-paper-scissors as to whether it'll work.

Not bragging, but I never, ever worry about them in competitive scenarios. Even the better builds I've been able to nearly or completely table with 4 tyrants w/electro shock (never leave home without it) with ease. They dont fair well against bugs at least.

Start playing with drop pods and reserve manipulations.
Ally in BA with 6 fast attack pods, and 2 small troops in pods. 4 pods come down turn 1, 4 pods you have some control over.
It's a ton of land on objective mobility that guard has never seen before, for far cheaper than it should be.
You're able to pair the very cheap marine transport with all the advantages of the very cheap guard units.

I've found Melta/Plasma Vets in Chimeras to be very underwhelming. They require very little to pop open and killing the 10 guardsmen inside is terribly easy. Since the game revolves around objectives, and guard are very poor at moving up the board to capture objectives, they seem like a very weak army atm.

Personally I think Guard are pretty terrible this edition but it doesn't mean we can't win.

The most effective list I've found for maelstrom missions is;

Platoon blob with Commissars in them
50 man conscript blob with Priests and Commissars
Valkyries and Vendettas full of Vets and SWSs and/or Platoon command squads
Wyverns and/or Russes for Heavy support


Idea is to have the Platoon blob hold down your deployment zone while your conscripts move up midfield to tarpit/capture objectives
The Vets and other squads riding in Valks and Vendettas drop out to hold objectives (hopefully in cover) when the mission parameters justify hopping them out.

Am I missing something, or Fast vehicle isn't faster than a regular one, but only can fire more weapons at full BS? How does that add to mobility?

Firepower of the chimera's aren't awesome (though 3 S5, and 3 S6 shots aren't negligible either), so if I want to get somewhere, I'll move 12" then flat out, that's 18". Fast won't make that better.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hoyt wrote:
I've found Melta/Plasma Vets in Chimeras to be very underwhelming. They require very little to pop open and killing the 10 guardsmen inside is terribly easy. Since the game revolves around objectives, and guard are very poor at moving up the board to capture objectives, they seem like a very weak army atm.

Personally I think Guard are pretty terrible this edition but it doesn't mean we can't win.

The most effective list I've found for maelstrom missions is;

Platoon blob with Commissars in them
50 man conscript blob with Priests and Commissars
Valkyries and Vendettas full of Vets and SWSs and/or Platoon command squads
Wyverns and/or Russes for Heavy support


Idea is to have the Platoon blob hold down your deployment zone while your conscripts move up midfield to tarpit/capture objectives
The Vets and other squads riding in Valks and Vendettas drop out to hold objectives (hopefully in cover) when the mission parameters justify hopping them out.

Why commissar instead of a priest in the blob? If the blob has any heavy/special/melee weapon, you have a nice chance to execute it.

Fast vehicles get a longer Flat Out move of 12" instead of 6".

Fast Skimmers get an even better Flat Out of 18".

Both can fire all weapons at full BS when moving at Combat Speed, and fire up to 2 weapons at full-BS when moving at Cruising Speed.

Zsolt wrote:
Am I missing something, or Fast vehicle isn't faster than a regular one, but only can fire more weapons at full BS? How does that add to mobility?

Firepower of the chimera's aren't awesome (though 3 S5, and 3 S6 shots aren't negligible either), so if I want to get somewhere, I'll move 12" then flat out, that's 18". Fast won't make that better.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hoyt wrote:

Spoiler:

I've found Melta/Plasma Vets in Chimeras to be very underwhelming. They require very little to pop open and killing the 10 guardsmen inside is terribly easy. Since the game revolves around objectives, and guard are very poor at moving up the board to capture objectives, they seem like a very weak army atm.

Personally I think Guard are pretty terrible this edition but it doesn't mean we can't win.

The most effective list I've found for maelstrom missions is;

Platoon blob with Commissars in them
50 man conscript blob with Priests and Commissars
Valkyries and Vendettas full of Vets and SWSs and/or Platoon command squads
Wyverns and/or Russes for Heavy support


Idea is to have the Platoon blob hold down your deployment zone while your conscripts move up midfield to tarpit/capture objectives
The Vets and other squads riding in Valks and Vendettas drop out to hold objectives (hopefully in cover) when the mission parameters justify hopping them out.

Why commissar instead of a priest in the blob? If the blob has any heavy/special/melee weapon, you have a nice chance to execute it.

Yes, you're right, forgot about that rule. It should be Priests & commissars in the conscript blob and just priests in the Platoon

I see there are some people who say that IG can create good TAC lists, while there are others who say they aren't even competitive (reliably tabling them counts as that imo, even if we consider it as a rock-paper-scissors effect, that's a big ass rock). Would some of you guys care to share those TAC lists? Maybe with some explanation?

 Hoyt wrote:
Yes, you're right, forgot about that rule. It should be Priests & commissars in the conscript blob and just priests in the Platoon

And why the comissar among the conscripts? Fearless + re-roll to hit in first round of cc along with the hymns is way better than whatever a commissar can give.

Commissars buff leadership for orders (FRFSRF affects lasguns which every conscript carries) they also allow GTG and if they execute someone well, they're all identical conscripts.

MarsNZ wrote:
Commissars buff leadership for orders (FRFSRF affects lasguns which every conscript carries) they also allow GTG and if they execute someone well, they're all identical conscripts.

I think hatred + hymns are better than gtg. You can add an Inquisitor with rad grenades, for the LD10 (costs the same as a commissar without the grenades, can cost quite a lot if you put too much wargear on him).

Inquisitor can still fail LD and his ld doesn't count for orders, so your conscripts will have to pass ld5 to make a further run, an extra shot, etc.

Zsolt wrote:
I see there are some people who say that IG can create good TAC lists, while there are others who say they aren't even competitive (reliably tabling them counts as that imo, even if we consider it as a rock-paper-scissors effect, that's a big ass rock). Would some of you guys care to share those TAC lists? Maybe with some explanation?

 Hoyt wrote:
Yes, you're right, forgot about that rule. It should be Priests & commissars in the conscript blob and just priests in the Platoon

And why the comissar among the conscripts? Fearless + re-roll to hit in first round of cc along with the hymns is way better than whatever a commissar can give.

I think the issue with IG is that they can field a few TAC units, but those units are generally very expensive and easy to single out.

A good TAC unit I usually run is Pask in a Punisher with Multimeltas, and an Executioner buddy with Multimeltas. It's good at splatting hordes, heavy infantry, and in a pinch, it can take on armor. If you want to split fire, Pask can usually unzip armor fairly easily.

That said, it's over 400 points and it's one GravCent unit's shooting phase away from being obliterated. And once that unit's gone, it's game over basically.



Manticores used to be pretty good in TAC lists but the post-5th changes to the Vehicle Damage Table mean that you're stuck stripping one hull point at a time. They're also competing for slots with Russes and Wyverns.

Vendettas with demo vets in them used to be pretty good TAC units, specializing in armor and heavy infantry. Now the Vets won't even fit in the Vendetta and they've removed the thing's alpha strike capability and replaced it with a 40 point increase.


My theory for why IG doesn't perform in the tournament scene at all is that competitive IG armies now require large blobs and a bunch of Russes, both of which are totally unwieldy to transport on airplanes, and are completely different than the armies that everyone built back when IG were good (i.e., 5th edition Mech Vets). The lack of portability and difficulty of playing in time-constrained environments, coupled with the fact that everyone who wants to play IG competitively is stuck rebuilding their army from the ground up purchasing a bunch of Russes, infantry, Wyverns, etc. - things that weren't all that great before.

 koooaei wrote:
Inquisitor can still fail LD and his ld doesn't count for orders, so your conscripts will have to pass ld5 to make a further run, an extra shot, etc.

Why? Units in the IG codex can be ordered, and Conscripts is such a unit. The unit needs to take a LD test, using the highest LD in the unit, that happens to be the LD of the Inquisitor. I don't see why the Inqs LD wouldn't count.

If you add a priest and a Inquisitor you have both fearless and high LD for your orders, along with the fancy stuff an Inquisitor can bring. If you bring a priest and a commissar, you only get the higher LD of the commissar (which is still lower than the Inq's), no gtg, no fancy wargear.

IIRC there's something about units not being able to use allie's ld for orders.

Zsolt wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Inquisitor can still fail LD and his ld doesn't count for orders, so your conscripts will have to pass ld5 to make a further run, an extra shot, etc.

If you add a priest and a Inquisitor you have both fearless and high LD for your orders, along with the fancy stuff an Inquisitor can bring. If you bring a priest and a commissar, you only get the higher LD of the commissar (which is still lower than the Inq's), no gtg, no fancy wargear.

Priest+inq and wargear means you're dropping what, 75? 100? points into a conscript squad for... what exactly? Trying to make a melee deathstar here?

Why bring a priest and a commissar in the same unit? Makes as much sense as buddying commissars up with psykers.

At the end of the day I've run priests with conscripts and I've run commissars with conscripts, and I preferred commissars. YMMV.

If I had more guard models I would totally take guard to any tournament(that allowed two sources). I am just short about 30 kriegers and I am not going to be able to get them any time soon.....

Also, conscripts are no longer worth it in 7th IMO, you need melta bombs, you need weapons, etc.

I think buffing guard blobs and taking advantage of their size and ability to tie up multiple units is the way to go. Don't hesitate to charge with guard, they can kill anything(especially with 1-2 priests)

However model placement is one of the most important things in a guard blob and frequently gets overlooked when I watch guard players.

I haven't fielded it yet, but I plan to run the Steel Host formation in my next game. PE on an executioner without having to pay for Pask? Yes please. Yea there's a Hydra tax but there's also no troop tax or pask tax, and PE goes from a squad buff to an AOE buff.

Zsolt wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Inquisitor can still fail LD and his ld doesn't count for orders, so your conscripts will have to pass ld5 to make a further run, an extra shot, etc.

Why? Units in the IG codex can be ordered, and Conscripts is such a unit. The unit needs to take a LD test, using the highest LD in the unit, that happens to be the LD of the Inquisitor. I don't see why the Inqs LD wouldn't count.

If you add a priest and a Inquisitor you have both fearless and high LD for your orders, along with the fancy stuff an Inquisitor can bring. If you bring a priest and a commissar, you only get the higher LD of the commissar (which is still lower than the Inq's), no gtg, no fancy wargear.

koooaei wrote:IIRC there's something about units not being able to use allie's ld for orders.

The orders only affect friendly Astra Militarum units, so an Inquisitor's Ld can't be used as he is not a unit from the codex.

Of course, that means you can just put a 25 pts priest into, let's say, a friendly devastator squad, have a commander give the Priest an order, and have him give ignore cover or tank/monster hunter to said Devastator squad.

 Jancoran wrote:
Its not. almost all the flyers went up in price or started higher than that. The vendetta is a boss.

yeah take a look at the Vendetta compared to the DE Void Raven, which while having a much better model is total crap in comparison.

The vendetta gets 50% more firepower, has a better effective BS, has higher armor on 3 sides, can transport troops, can be squadroned, can hover, and is in a less competitive slot.

The Void Raven has the Lance USR, Nigh Vision, and costs 15 points less.

Inquisitor Jex wrote:

Zsolt wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Inquisitor can still fail LD and his ld doesn't count for orders, so your conscripts will have to pass ld5 to make a further run, an extra shot, etc.

Why? Units in the IG codex can be ordered, and Conscripts is such a unit. The unit needs to take a LD test, using the highest LD in the unit, that happens to be the LD of the Inquisitor. I don't see why the Inqs LD wouldn't count.

If you add a priest and a Inquisitor you have both fearless and high LD for your orders, along with the fancy stuff an Inquisitor can bring. If you bring a priest and a commissar, you only get the higher LD of the commissar (which is still lower than the Inq's), no gtg, no fancy wargear.

koooaei wrote:IIRC there's something about units not being able to use allie's ld for orders.

The orders only affect friendly Astra Militarum units, so an Inquisitor's Ld can't be used as he is not a unit from the codex.

Of course, that means you can just put a 25 pts priest into, let's say, a friendly devastator squad, have a commander give the Priest an order, and have him give ignore cover or tank/monster hunter to said Devastator squad.

When an IC joins a unit, he'll become part of that unit. The order isn't affecting the inquisitor, it affects the conscript squad. The conscript squad happens to contain the inquisitor.

 Exergy wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Its not. almost all the flyers went up in price or started higher than that. The vendetta is a boss.

yeah take a look at the Vendetta compared to the DE Void Raven, which while having a much better model is total crap in comparison.

The vendetta gets 50% more firepower, has a better effective BS, has higher armor on 3 sides, can transport troops, can be squadroned, can hover, and is in a less competitive slot.

The Void Raven has the Lance USR, Nigh Vision, and costs 15 points less.

Vendetta is indeed a boss. A Real work horse.

I've been doing OK with mine, but the main issue is that the worst match-ups are Tau and Eldar, who are pretty high up there on the competitive scene.

As mentioned, Pask and his buddies are a solid unit (Pask with Punisher, Lascannon and 2x Plasma, with a King Plasma squad mate is my favorite right now).

I won't leave home without at least 2 Vendettas (stick SWS in there for your mobile scoring) and min 2 Wyverns.

Another thing I have not seen yet is people taking advantage of the best IG units and their squadron rules. For example, 9 Wyverns is 585 points. That is a steal where you often see Deathstar units that easily hit that point level. 36 TL S4 blasts with Shred will put the hurt on anything that isn't armored basically.

Also, conscripts are super under-rated (or maybe just not really taken because no one wants to move a 50 man unit?). This unit is super effective bubble wrap that keeps the big scary CC units off your tanks. Basically just throw in a Commissar and they aren't going to budge.

Overall though IG are best used with allies, or as allies with armies like SW, Knights, SM etc, they give these armies much needed bodies and firepower, while allowing the heavy hitters to focus on getting into grips with the enemy.