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I'm confused about the Fire Raptor rules. This unit basically doesn't need Power of the machine spirit due to the independant turrents, but the Chaos version is significantly cheaper. Why? The Chaos autocannons are almost identical to the Imperial version apart from shooting twice as many shots. Since when does Chaos have superior technology to the Imperium? Why doesn't the Imperial version have assault cannons when that is the astartes version of autocannons (according to a friend of mine)? Why can the Chaos version buy ceramite plating when the Imperial version cannot? The emperimental rules version could. Again, since when does Chaos have superior technology to the Imperium. Why does the Chaos version have default missiles that are ordnance weapons making it impossible to use more than one single weapon a turn. That makes no sense. What did the rules authors smoke when writing these rules?

Perhaps it indicates that the Chaos forces are willing to modify this particular vehicle more substantially than loyalist forces?

Who knows - but more importantly - why does it matter so much? Why MUST they be identical? PoTMS is typically equated in GW material at about 25 points (though arguably it is worth a lot more). So the base difference between the two reflects that (Loyalist = 225, Chaos = 200)

For Gods sake man - it's not as if the Chaos Codex is overpowered or anything. Let them have this...

well keep in mind that the main weapon system (avenger bolt cannon) and the 4 rockets must fire at the same target. So power of the machine spirit would allow you to use the rockets on a different target than the avenger bolt cannon.

The Chaos version also has Ordnance on it's missiles, making the missiles kind of useless.

 cvtuttle wrote:
Perhaps it indicates that the Chaos forces are willing to modify this particular vehicle more substantially than loyalist forces?

Who knows - but more importantly - why does it matter so much? Why MUST they be identical? PoTMS is typically equated in GW material at about 25 points (though arguably it is worth a lot more). So the base difference between the two reflects that (Loyalist = 225, Chaos = 200)

For Gods sake man - it's not as if the Chaos Codex is overpowered or anything. Let them have this...

Hehe, no they don't have to be identical. I was just expecting the Chaos version to be slightly worse than the Imperial one but cheaper instead, not better and cheaper. A twin linked reaper auto cannon is effectively a quad gun. Yes normally POTMS is well worth 25 points but not with indipendant turrents, I think. CSM and Renegades together can pack a punch.

Is the Chaos version BS3 or BS4?

The Chaos version is BS4. Also don't forget, both versions have Strafing Run, which makes them BS5 against a lot of targets.

Also, in regards to the missiles, the ITC FAQ (which a lot of gaming groups, especially on the west coast, use) allows you to fire all of the Ordnance missiles at once at full BS, while snapshotting everything else. This makes it a lot more reasonable, and not a complete waste. All together, the chaos one is definitely the superior option- it seems like Forgeworld forgot to place the upgrade portion of the rules in their loyalist book, and only really FAQ'd the autocannons because the model comes with them. Unfortunately for us Chaos players, the rest of the chaos book is significantly worse than everything else the loyalists have...

PotMS lets the loyalist version come onto the board and fire 2 turrets, the avenger bolt cannon, and 4 missiles. These are fired at full BS and can be fired at different targets. The loyalist version has a massive punch when it comes on from reserves.

The Chaos version really could have used PotMS to compensate for the ordnance missiles. As it is the large blast missiles have to be fired at the same target as the avenger bolt cannon. Not entirely ideal.

I think the ordnance missiles make no sense but I don't think the Chaos version needs a FAQ boost. If I played Chaos I would just upgrade the missiles to the blast version and fire away whenever shooting at ground targets.

So the Chaos Version has to be worse but cheaper? Is that what's expected nowadays...?

Chaos does have some better stuff then the Imperium!

bugsy wrote:
I think the ordnance missiles make no sense but I don't think the Chaos version needs a FAQ boost. If I played Chaos I would just upgrade the missiles to the blast version and fire away whenever shooting at ground targets.

This is what people do. Usually to the tone of making it's points back the turn it comes in from reserve. It's okay though cause chaos is a terrible base army. So broken FW units is okay to balance it out.

Something uncharacteristically good for a weak army, must be broken. Gotcha.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
So the Chaos Version has to be worse but cheaper? Is that what's expected nowadays...?

Chaos does have some better stuff then the Imperium!

I was expecting the Chaos version to be slightly worse off technology wise but not necessarily worse in total. It could have some kind of daemonic possession, a daemonic invo save or a mark of Chaos making certain aspects of the unit better. Maybe if the Chaos reaper autocannon is a posessed warp weapon it would make sense.

Overall I think the Fire Raptor is very good in both versions. I only have a problem with the funny differences. I think both should come with heavy bolters as standard with the potential of upgrading the Chaos version with reaper autocannons, for let's say 10 p, and the Imperial version with assault cannons, for about 20 p. Both should have the option of ceramite. Missiles could be different, especially since they are one use and would be replaced anyway. The Imperial version could be a Little more expensive due to POTMS but not much considering independant turrets. I also think that both versions are maybe a little cheap. The Fire Raptor is much better than the Stormraven for only a few points more. Only the additional hull point is worth 25 points.

The Fire Raptor is much better than the Stormraven for only a few points more. Only the additional hull point is worth 25 points.

It's also one per list, unless you take a specific unit for each army for it.

Generally though it's pretty fine.