Making Orks Competitive- Gather the Council, Prepare to Waaagh!

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Frozocrone**

Yeah, my term-time GW allows FW. I think my home-time does too, but only in the club that the manager runs. In store, it's a case of 'it's not stocked, so can't allow it'.

**General_K**

I'd run a fir sized (5) deffkopta unit, but I don't think I'd replace the bikes with the koptas. They serve different purposes in the game (and you may not have had luck, but the bikers are the better combat unit, and can be upgraded to nobz).

My local GW store manager has even allowed me to bring my potato head stompa - and in a game, no less.

**Glitcha**

So I've played the the new tactical format with the new cards. These is not an easy format and is even harder for us. During my game I draw 4 cards that where shoot a unit off the table

This has prompted me to rebuild my list to something new. What is Orks greatest strengts/advantages? Cheap CQB units, cheap HQs, and massive amount of dice

Here is what i'm thinking:
Double CAD (Just going to list it all together)

HQ
Mad Doc
Pain boy
Pain boy
Pain boy

Troops
6x 10 'ard boyz with a Nob with BP and PK in a Trukk with boarding plank and ram.

Fast attack
Dakka jet

Heavy support
10 lootas
2 zzap kannons

If you managed to get all the trukk boy squads into combat at once, you are looking at 240 Str 4 attacks and 28 str 9 ap 2 attacks. You also have 4 units with FNP and 1 unit with Rampage also. Thoughts?

**Lord Corellia**

Glitcha wrote:
There is no restrictions on the number of 'ard boyz you want to have now.

So are 'Ard Boyz worth the extra points? Seems extremely unlikely to me. In most of my lists that's an extra 300-400 points just on the 'Ard Boyz upgrade. Seems an awful lot.

**Glitcha**

Its actually more potent then you think, because it means in close combat you have a 4+ save and a FNP, instead of 6+.

**gungo**

While it's more errata than faq and thus might not even be answered. I did ask in the faq thread on GW Facebook page if we can take ghazskull instead of warboss grukk or a warboss in a Goff kill mob or ork waagh band formation core choice in a great waaagh band detachment from the waaagh ghazskull supplement.

I doubt they would change it but if they do it will make the ork decorian a lot more competitive.

**Frozocrone**

Might as well for Slugga Boyz. Makes them more survivable in combat.

I don't bother for Shootas.

**Glitcha**

Yeah they are all sluga chopa boyz. If I take shootas, they don't get 'ard armor.

**General_K**

Glitcha wrote:
Its actually more potent then you think, because it means in close combat you have a 4+ save and a FNP, instead of 6+.

This is basically what I've been doing for a while now (a few months) with a good deal of success (your dual CAD with painboyz in boyz units).

I've gotten into the habit of only taking my slugga/choppa boyz with eavy armour. I won't take them any other way. I've heard a lot of "the point of Orks is numbers...300-400 points is another 60-80 boyz, and thus 240-360 attacks!" And, well, yes, that's right. But how many of those boys will GET to where they need to go? What's their staying power once IN combat? Sure, by paying this extra I'm sacrificing a good number of extra boyz, but I've found that taking eavy armour and painboyz makes the (still substantial) number of boyz I DO have far more resiliant - and in ways my opponent isn't anticipating. They're used to Orks dying by the handful...and I'm removing 1-3 models. Eavy armour is also an effective way to mitigate Mob Rule: the odd time I fail a test, and get bashin' 'eads or squabble, I'll generally roll a 2-4 for hits, 1-2 for wounds, and the eavy armour will make short work of that (and FNP can cover any that get through). I absolutely believe spending more for fewer but more resilient Orks is the better choice than cheaper, more but dainty Orks.

**Lord Corellia**

General_K wrote:
This is basically what I've been doing for a while now (a few months) with a good deal of success (your dual CAD with painboyz in boyz units).

I've gotten into the habit of only taking my slugga/choppa boyz with eavy armour. I won't take them any other way. I've heard a lot of "the point of Orks is numbers...300-400 points is another 60-80 boyz, and thus 240-360 attacks!" And, well, yes, that's right. But how many of those boys will GET to where they need to go? What's their staying power once IN combat? Sure, by paying this extra I'm sacrificing a good number of extra boyz, but I've found that taking eavy armour and painboyz makes the (still substantial) number of boyz I DO have far more resiliant - and in ways my opponent isn't anticipating. They're used to Orks dying by the handful...and I'm removing 1-3 models. Eavy armour is also an effective way to mitigate Mob Rule: the odd time I fail a test, and get bashin' 'eads or squabble, I'll generally roll a 2-4 for hits, 1-2 for wounds, and the eavy armour will make short work of that (and FNP can cover any that get through). I absolutely believe spending more for fewer but more resilient Orks is the better choice than cheaper, more but dainty Orks.

What are you running them in? I just did a draft list that I had to scrap because especially with dual CAD there was no way I was fitting in everything I wanted. I did 4 of each slot and ended up at something like 2400 points and that was without running 'Ard Boyz. I was looking to use a Bika Boss, Pain Boy on bike with 2 units of ~8 Warbikers, 2 units of Trukk Boyz, 2 units of MAN Missiles, 2 7-strong Tankbustas in Trukks, some Koptas, Warbuggies, a Warboss and Painboy legging it with some shoota Boyz, another 20-strong shoota Boyz, 2 Wagons and a couple units of Mek Gunz.

**General_K**

Lord Corellia wrote:
General_K wrote:
This is basically what I've been doing for a while now (a few months) with a good deal of success (your dual CAD with painboyz in boyz units).

I've gotten into the habit of only taking my slugga/choppa boyz with eavy armour. I won't take them any other way. I've heard a lot of "the point of Orks is numbers...300-400 points is another 60-80 boyz, and thus 240-360 attacks!" And, well, yes, that's right. But how many of those boys will GET to where they need to go? What's their staying power once IN combat? Sure, by paying this extra I'm sacrificing a good number of extra boyz, but I've found that taking eavy armour and painboyz makes the (still substantial) number of boyz I DO have far more resiliant - and in ways my opponent isn't anticipating. They're used to Orks dying by the handful...and I'm removing 1-3 models. Eavy armour is also an effective way to mitigate Mob Rule: the odd time I fail a test, and get bashin' 'eads or squabble, I'll generally roll a 2-4 for hits, 1-2 for wounds, and the eavy armour will make short work of that (and FNP can cover any that get through). I absolutely believe spending more for fewer but more resilient Orks is the better choice than cheaper, more but dainty Orks.

What are you running them in? I just did a draft list that I had to scrap because especially with dual CAD there was no way I was fitting in everything I wanted. I did 4 of each slot and ended up at something like 2400 points and that was without running 'Ard Boyz. I was looking to use a Bika Boss, Pain Boy on bike with 2 units of ~8 Warbikers, 2 units of Trukk Boyz, 2 units of MAN Missiles, 2 7-strong Tankbustas in Trukks, some Koptas, Warbuggies, a Warboss and Painboy legging it with some shoota Boyz, another 20-strong shoota Boyz, 2 Wagons and a couple units of Mek Gunz.

oh god, you can't do all that in a low point game, no. I dont' have mek guns or wagons, myself, and don't have enough warbikers for something like that.

In addition to 4 painboyz and 4-6 units of boyz (with at least two being 20 strong), I run a Warboss w/ DLS and eavy armour (or mega armour if I'm feeling cheeky), and either 1 unit of 3 MaNz or 1 unit of 5-10 Nobz w/eavy armour and a few PKs. I take 7 lootas, 1-2 units of 3 deffkoptas. That's about it. Everything walks. I think it's usually around 2000-2400 points?

**Lord Corellia**

Everything footslogs? That's awfully ballsy isn't it?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
And for Warbikers I'm not sure which is the best way to run them; 2 units of 6-8 each or one massive blob.

**General_K**

Well, it's not like I"m just eschewing vehicles. I just haven't had the money to buy them

I've got a single trukk, and I just scratch built 2 battlewagons, though, so we'll see how that goes. (both my own gaming group and my local GW store will permit me to use these scratch builds).

But generally, as long as there's cover to be had, my footsloggers haven't really had that big a problem. I'm not getting turn 2 charges, sure - but I can dart between cover to play a long game that works just fine. I mean, with a 4" table, you've only got 24" between your units....I cut down half that distance in one turn between moving and running (well, almost half, on average)...so I can reliably get into combat by turn 3, and once I"m there, I'm good. Admittedly, though, it helps that in my meta, my necron player never moves...

**Moolet**

But generally, as long as there's cover to be had, my footsloggers haven't really had that big a problem. I'm not getting turn 2 charges, sure - but I can dart between cover to play a long game that works just fine. I mean, with a 4" table, you've only got 24" between your units....I cut down half that distance in one turn between moving and running (well, almost half, on average)...so I can reliably get into combat by turn 3, and once I"m there, I'm good. Admittedly, though, it helps that in my meta, my necron player never moves...

I agree against super cheese matches vs Tau or Eldar it can fall on its face a bit, and it can struggle against slightly weaker cheese but thats the same for the rest of our builds. I often play 3-4 squads of 25-30 all with painboyz. It takes up a little over or under half your points kitted correctly (BP+PK) and it gives the opponent a ticking time bomb to defuse. Anything super mobile I use deffkoptas to tie in CC until a trukk of boyz/meganobz/horde of boyz arrive.

Add in 5 lobbas with 3 ammo runts (99pts). They've made their points back every game so far, I don't leave home without them (buy the plastic empire mortars second hand, you often find them pretty cheap).

I've found footslogging with 120 FnP boyz functions pretty well in all lists up to and including mild cheddar levels of power.

**Lord Corellia**

Moolet wrote:
Add in 5 lobbas with 3 ammo runts (99pts). They've made their points back every game so far, I don't leave home without them (buy the plastic empire mortars second hand, you often find them pretty cheap).

Interesting, since I wasn't planning on shelling out $35 a pop for an 18-point unit. The one Lobba I have now is a converted Leman Russ part. I don't remember which variant uses the giant barrel, but it comes in the Punisher kit and rarely gets used... An IG player might have a couple lying around.

Moolet wrote:
I've found footslogging with 120 FnP boyz functions pretty well in all lists up to and including mild cheddar levels of power.

How about Grotsnik? Is he usable in place of a Painboy and a Nob? I ask mainly because I have the model and can't seem to find too many different Painboy minis. I have the older resin one and I should probably shell out for the new plastic one, but aside from that are there any other poses? One of the cardinal sins of an Ork army, imo, would be to have 2 identical HQs.

**Frozocrone**

Lord Corellia wrote:
Everything footslogs? That's awfully ballsy isn't it?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
And for Warbikers I'm not sure which is the best way to run them; 2 units of 6-8 each or one massive blob.

I find blobs better, but smaller units (like 6) work fine.

Adding onto 'eavy armour or not, it's nice to not have to remove models to Bolters, but it's even better when you're not removing models by the dozen to Wyverns, SMS and other Ignore Cover garbage that I usually have to deal with. Downside is being more susceptible to Grav, but if you're firing your Grav-Cannons at my Boyz, then you're not firing at my Manz.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lord Corellia wrote:
How about Grotsnik? Is he usable in place of a Painboy and a Nob? I ask mainly because I have the model and can't seem to find too many different Painboy minis. I have the older resin one and I should probably shell out for the new plastic one, but aside from that are there any other poses? One of the cardinal sins of an Ork army, imo, would be to have 2 identical HQs.

Grotsnik is amazing. I like to use him with non-Bullyboyz Manz to give them Fearless and Rampage. For larger units, I think a Painboy would do.

One upside of Grotsnik is that you can just take the 10pt Nob for challenges, without having to buy the 15pt Mek.

**gungo**

Grotsnik just makes a small group of man missles so much better. Rampage, fearless, fnp and another claw makes those model so much more of a threat. Rampage alone can add 50% more damage output. He just costs a bit to much.

**Moolet**

Interesting, since I wasn't planning on shelling out $35 a pop for an 18-point unit. The one Lobba I have now is a converted Leman Russ part. I don't remember which variant uses the giant barrel, but it comes in the Punisher kit and rarely gets used... An IG player might have a couple lying around.

I've never had an opponent get weird about using slightly different models. Try out, 1 or a few. A was sold on them when I first fielded them and over the course of 3 turns killed 3 reapers (2 in one turn). Not bad for 18pts.

How about Grotsnik? Is he usable in place of a Painboy and a Nob?

I've not used him extensively but he performed ok when I did, not exceptionally. If you're rolling nob + painboy together into grotsnik then its an eggs into one basket case, something I avoid with orks. It does give fearless though which is nice but if I'm taking 4 painboyz and 4 mobs of boyz then I take 2 ork horde detachments giving me 6 of each slot to play with. That means I can easily add a warboss with eavy armour and PK or bigchoppa if you want to skimp on points. Gives the mob ld 9 and a bit more bite. I personally prefer this but I'm sure you will get some decent milage out of grotsnik.

I ask mainly because I have the model and can't seem to find too many different Painboy minis. I have the older resin one and I should probably shell out for the new plastic one, but aside from that are there any other poses? One of the cardinal sins of an Ork army, imo, would be to have 2 identical HQs.

I use the new plastic one, GW do 2 more models I think. I went with spellcrow and got their one and the painboy upgrade sprue converting a nob as another. For the fourth I use my brotehrs. He has converted 30 'nurgle orks' which look awesome. I use his nurgle PB with is a plaguebringer conversion but I'll probably grab one of the other GW models at some point.

I like to keep Manz missiles, trukk with ram and 3 barebones meganobz. For me they are a distraction, one that often actually does well though. If they can soak a turn of shooting and die, they've completed their purpose, never lost them all in one turn though (only played 5-6 games with them so far)

**Frozocrone**

Another thing to note about Grotsnik is that he comes with 'eavy armour as standard, which is nothing to write home about, but also T5, which means he gets the FnP against Melta and the like (fantastic, has to be said).

I face Relic Whirlwind Scorpius' against every Marine opponent I face against, bar one, which was list-tailored Crimson Fists. Having a Painboy have a save against the S8 Ap3 Barrage Ignore Cover without relying on Look Out Sir is awesome.

**Ashkayel**

Vitali Advenil wrote:
Quick question that's been bothering me recently.

So I'm about to (finally) finish up a squad of deffkotpas. Running three of them solo has done decent work, but they're not quite as tough as I'd like to be running them on their own, so I'm probably going to try running them in squads of five to avoid morale issues, at least for the first death. I'm aware I can plop an HQ on a bike with them, though that gets rid of their delicious 24'' turbo-boost. After some thinking, though, would it not be a bad idea to replace my squad of 9 bikers with a squad of 5 deffkoptas?

The deffkotpas are cheaper (I run them naked with TL rokkits), go faster, and have the same number of wounds as the 9 bikers (+1 for the nob). The deffkoptas ignore terrain and have a better weapon, at least in my opinion. They're also a smaller unit, which makes it easier to maneuver them while still staying effective. The bikers, on the other hand, character and BP, giving them a decent chance (2/3 chance if my math is correct) of not running from a failed morale check. They're also better in melee (though I've never had great success with my bikers in CC). Granted, I could take both, but if it comes down to one or the other, wouldn't deffkoptas be a slightly better option, regardless of their morale issues?

Then again, it could just be me- my bikers seem to be cursed. They always die to shooting in the first turn since they're huge targets, do horrid with their shooting, or get hunted down by better bike units. Honestly, the best work they've ever done was getting eaten by a pack of wulfen that put those furry feths in perfect range for my lootas to smash.

Personally I've tried a Big Mek on the relic warbike to join the 5 koptas, it worked well. He gives them a character, bosspole, Ld8, he still can turbo-boost 18" (instead of 12" for a normal bike), and having AP3 dakkablastas shots goes well with the rokkits. You could also do that with a warboss, but it gets more expensive. A painboy would be nice also but he can't have a bosspole, so. Personnally I would never run a squad of koptas without a character, and the big mek is the cheapest for the job.

**Vitali Advenil**

The problem with the relic warbike is, iirc, that means I can't take DLS on my warboss. I mainly use DLS to give my boyz WS 5, which means I'm hitting most things on a 3- plus, the rerolls for attack on my warboss are nice.

**Grimskul**

Vitali Advenil wrote:
The problem with the relic warbike is, iirc, that means I can't take DLS on my warboss. I mainly use DLS to give my boyz WS 5, which means I'm hitting most things on a 3- plus, the rerolls for attack on my warboss are nice.

Indeed, I think there's a lot of potential synergy for the Ork relics if we were able to take more than one IMO. It honestly looks like Eadwompa's Kill Choppa was made to be used in conjunction with DLS, since being able to reroll hits and wounds with it would make it worth considering over a PK. And given that we aren't allowed invulns. in CC for whatever reason, there's not much abuse available besides mega armour which many things ignore anyways.

**Vineheart01**

Yeah, thats my main beef with the ork relics.

The few other races that are limited to 1 of an army-wide armory is usually either 1) ALL really damn good with one or two baddies or 2) mostly weapons anyway so its by default only one each.
Orks.... the bike is cool, the killchoppa is fun, the rest are just gimicky toys that CAN be useful. Problem is Da Lucky Stikk is just way WAY too powerful in comparison, and for some reason we cant put PKs or Relics on Painboyz either.

**Vitali Advenil**

Honestly since the only wargear option the painboy has is a grot orderly (I think), it feels like he's literally only there for the FNP, since who gives a crap about 4+ poison when we're usually hitting on 4's in the charge anyway. It would be nice if he had some versatility like Big Meks or Warbosses.

**Vineheart01**

well, to be fair on the charge he's S5 so against most targets he gets reroll to wounds thanks to poison rules in melee (since they made that greater than the toughness instead of greater or equal) but yeah he has nothing going for him to be an IC. He really should be the same thing as the Mekboyz, or given access to crap so we can actually make him do something. He can take a Bosspole i believe but who cares really lol...we cant even give him 'eavy armor...but he can take a bike for some reason?

The new painboy model even looks like he has a poisoned powerklaw. Where the hell is the rule for that? Powerklaw that rerolls to wound against anything. Only T8/T9 things in the game are GMC anyway so anti-poison ftl

**Vitali Advenil**

Oh, wait, I misunderstood the poison rules. So if my painboy's strength is higher than the target's toughness, I get a reroll on to wound? gak, that'll be nice to bring to the table next game.

**Vineheart01**

Yes. Its only in melee but then again just about all poison is melee anyway.
i rarely ever get anything from it but it is at least making him slightly more reliable with his 5 attacks on the charge (remember, he still has a CCW and a slugga with 3 base attacks) than a regular nob.

He still shouldnt be a damn IC as is. There are other races with ICs that dont get many options but it makes no sense that an ork boss guy doesnt have any toyz for killin'

**Grimskul**

Vineheart01 wrote:
Yes. Its only in melee but then again just about all poison is melee anyway.
i rarely ever get anything from it but it is at least making him slightly more reliable with his 5 attacks on the charge (remember, he still has a CCW and a slugga with 3 base attacks) than a regular nob.

He still shouldnt be a damn IC as is. There are other races with ICs that dont get many options but it makes no sense that an ork boss guy doesnt have any toyz for killin'

Pretty much, I feel in general that they should have taken after forgeworld's dred mob since they pretty much have what we're asking with their Painboss, a painboy with Ld8, options for 'eavy armour, big choppas, and PK, the works. Furthermore, I feel that they should upscale some of the Ork HQ's a bit since there's a clear stat progression from boyz to Nobz. (extra wound, strength, initiative, attacks, oddly not leadership but that's another issue) To differentiate the Oddboyz who are leaders vs. those who are merely in support roles. So Mekboyz, Weirdboyz, and Painboyz should be like IG Commissars/Priests in being 0-5 per detachment, which are characters (not IC) that need to be attached to a unit prior to deployment. Painbosses, Big Meks and Warpheads become the next level, singular HQ choices with stats that represent the big 'uns of the Oddboyz, with 3 wounds each, T5 and Ld8 but otherwise the same stats. Buff up warbosses to have 4 wounds instead of 3 (he's a really big guy, should at least be on par with chapter masters) and I feel it shows the progression of Ork hierarchy much more viscerally given that "biggest and da best" is both ideologically and literally the way it works for them.

**tag8833**

Lord Corellia wrote:
So are 'Ard Boyz worth the extra points? Seems extremely unlikely to me. In most of my lists that's an extra 300-400 points just on the 'Ard Boyz upgrade. Seems an awful lot.

I'd say 'ard boyz definitely aren't worth it except in rare situations. The problem is most armies can kill orks with such ease that adding points to units is just a waste. Your best way to go is MSU. The goal is to keep the opponent wasting firepower overkilling units, and still have enough units left to threaten them.

That means no 'eavy armor on trukk boyz. No 'eavy armor on battlewagon boyz. From my point of view the best usage of eavy armor is walking blobs of shoota boyz.

Another good use of 'eavy armor is if you are beating someone consistently, you can always waste points on upgrades to make your army less effective so they can compete.

The argument above about 'eavy armor being useful because it adds survivability in cc isn't going to generally work out for 2 reasons.
1) The game is usually only 5 turns long. That means you don't have a long time to spend in combat.
2) Unless you meta is highly uncompetitive, units are going to be either incredibly deadly in CC (Thunderwolves, Wraiths), or no match for orks at all in CC (Space Marines). So, there just aren't very many situations where the added survivability would make the difference. On the other hand, having 60% more boyz would usually make a difference in most situations.

**Glitcha**

I can't say that I completely agree with you Tag8833, but if that works for you, go for it. I've gone with the rule of thumb that my trukk boyz get 'ard armor and my Shoota boyz get more shoota boyz. Usually somewhere between 20-30 boyz with shootas. Personally, I would think that if you are going to go with the whole MSU, why not spend some points on buffing the ork boyz. Yes have more units means there is something else to shoot at, but lets face, everything the orks have is just a distraction from the boyz units.