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After looking at the Chaos Spawn profile in the CSM dex I realized just how costly Ogryns are. For 10 points more than a Chaos Spawn, sure you get a gun with relatively good strength and below average AP, but it's only got 12" range and is fired at mediocre BS. You get terrible leadership, a forgettable armor save, a decent weapon skill, HoW the turn he charges, and terrible initiative.

Now what does the Chaos Spawn have? 10 points cheaper, no armor save (not like it matters), 1 worse WS (okay), no ballistic skill as it has no weapons, causes fear, is fearless, has rage and between 1 and 6 attacks compared to the Ogryn's 3. Furthermore, they get a bonus effect in close combat determined by a D3 - either improved roll for attacks, a 4+ armor save, or poisoned 4+ attacks.

Most importantly though, Chaos Spawn are beasts meaning they can move 12" each turn and have access to chaos marks that make them even better and still cheaper than an Ogryn.

So yes, Ogryns really do suck.

If Ogryns were 30 points instead, then they'd be more comparable to Chaos Spawn - maybe they should be reduced further to 25 points?

No, it should be either 29 or 31 points.

I think a key difference is that you can't attach a priest to chaos spawn. Priests make ogryns much better, but yeah at 40 points each they still suck, especially since you can't transport more than 4 of them in a chimera.

There's no reason to have ogryns and bullgryns as two different units, bullgryns are vastly superior since they basically get 3+ armor for 5 more points. So here's my solution:

Ogryns - 35 points per model with ripper guns, frag grenades, and carapace armor
- may take slab shields or brute shields for 5 points per model
- may take power weapons for 15 points per model
- may take power fists for 25 points per model

Now base ogryns have 4+ save, are slightly cheaper, and now you can kit them with slab shields and power weapons, instead of paying 15 points to lose your 3+ save with the brute shield.

Yes they should be 30 points, but the thing is man is chaos needs something actually better than at least someone. Also, as stated above. Priests.

Chaos orgryns are even more expensive!

And they are worse

 TheSilo wrote:
I think a key difference is that you can't attach a priest to chaos spawn. Priests make ogryns much better, but yeah at 40 points each they still suck, especially since you can't transport more than 4 of them in a chimera.

There's no reason to have ogryns and bullgryns as two different units, bullgryns are vastly superior since they basically get 3+ armor for 5 more points. So here's my solution:

Ogryns - 35 points per model with ripper guns, frag grenades, and carapace armor
- may take slab shields or brute shields for 5 points per model
- may take power weapons for 15 points per model
- may take power fists for 25 points per model

Now base ogryns have 4+ save, are slightly cheaper, and now you can kit them with slab shields and power weapons, instead of paying 15 points to lose your 3+ save with the brute shield.

Allowing ogryns.... OGRYNS..... to take such valuable weaponry as power swords and power fists? You actually think we should allow abhumans to use something that an astartes should wield? You're lucky we even give those beasts the guns and armor they already have.

Speak like this again and I will inform the Inquisition of your heretical suggestions. In the meantime, purge this thread of the heresy you have wrought.

When people compare units from one codex to another, they often forget about the context. Ogryns are designed to be a tough counter-charge for your squishy gunline. Spawns are designed to be a tough fast threat in an army that, strictly speaking, lacks real weight of powerful shooting.

In other words, spawns in csm dex are fine. Spawns in IG dex are a bit too good. Don't try to turn ogryns into spawns.

Now back to ogryn's problems. They should be and are a decent counter-charge that can tarpit most stuff long enough. The problem is mostly with gunline playstyle and guards themselves. Gunlines are not nearly as powerful as before with maelstorm missions and sitting there in a cosy trench waiting to get rushed is not a winning tactix no more. Another problem is that conscripts and guards with priests are even better tarpits than ogryns and guards can even stomp face provided they're equipped with a couple axes and/or rad grenade inquisitors.

Making ogryns 30 pt...will it really change much? What's their exact purpose in the list? They'll still be slow and only good at counter-charging. They'd probably soak some fire moving on an objective but not like they're too resilient still. While making them any cheaper would be very questionable.

I think ogryns should be cheaper, but again what koooael said, its not fair to compare codex to codex like that, what I usually say is "can you take that unit as Imperial guard?" for example "can you take chaos spawn as Imperial guard" basically no (well, Come the apocalypse allies I guess) so really, whats the point?

 kingbobbito wrote:

 TheSilo wrote:
I think a key difference is that you can't attach a priest to chaos spawn. Priests make ogryns much better, but yeah at 40 points each they still suck, especially since you can't transport more than 4 of them in a chimera.

There's no reason to have ogryns and bullgryns as two different units, bullgryns are vastly superior since they basically get 3+ armor for 5 more points. So here's my solution:

Ogryns - 35 points per model with ripper guns, frag grenades, and carapace armor
- may take slab shields or brute shields for 5 points per model
- may take power weapons for 15 points per model
- may take power fists for 25 points per model

Now base ogryns have 4+ save, are slightly cheaper, and now you can kit them with slab shields and power weapons, instead of paying 15 points to lose your 3+ save with the brute shield.

Allowing ogryns.... OGRYNS..... to take such valuable weaponry as power swords and power fists? You actually think we should allow abhumans to use something that an astartes should wield? You're lucky we even give those beasts the guns and armor they already have.

Speak like this again and I will inform the Inquisition of your heretical suggestions. In the meantime, purge this thread of the heresy you have wrought.

They already get power mauls.

For the record, back in 4th ogryns only cost 25 points at S6 T4 A2 Ld8. So they seem to be the only unit in the entire game that has actually gone up in points since then, now they're 40 points. I think they're clearly better at S5 T5 A3, but the bone 'ead and ogryns have lost 2 points of ld, which makes a 25 point priest tax non-negotiable. Not sure that the changes justified a 15 ppm bump.

were they also 3 wounds back then?

 Sir Arun wrote:
were they also 3 wounds back then?

Yes. Also initiative 3.

Wraiths have gone up in price too. Technically. And possessed iirc.