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yakface wrote:

... then for the most part the owning player gets to choose which model in the unit gets removed as a casaulty (representing other models in the unit being able to pick up special weapons, etc, dropped by their dying compatriats).

Haha, huzzah for a game where dead people don't get dibs.

Solider: *checking the pulse of a fellow soldier* "Jim's dead. Damn... he had the special weapon. Should I grab it? We're being torn to pieces out here"

Unit leader: "No Ivan, why would you even ask that? Jim called dibs. He had line of sight to the weapon at the time, he called it within the 10 minute window of its expected use. We respect dibs. What is our unit motto? Say it."

Soldier: *hesitation*

Unit leader: "SAY IT. That's an order, private!"

Soldier *sighs*: "Dibs unto death... and beyond."



On the matter of Epirians, I really didn't like them, they were just generic guys, and I mean, that's what guard are for, right?

Then I saw them the next day. They were kind of okay, I guess. Still nothing particularly special.

Then I saw them the next day. This was the day we were shown the picture of them in a group. These guys were really not special, I mean really not special. I started to find that special.

Then I saw them the next day. I started to love them. They were spectacularly not special. So distinctly not special that I came to truly admire that.

So many times I've been playing a game wanting that more human touch. I've always wanted to play a game set in a city where you have civilians and police fighting off an unexpected invasion, while the military desperately tries to push back the enemy long enough to send some reinforcements to help evacuate.
These guys are just that. They are so basic, so human, that they look the perfect part of canon fodder. They look how I imagine a poorly outfitted security force would look. Painted up a little differently, I think they could look the part of the police.

Now I just need some models of fleeing civilians...

I really liked the novel excerpt from the first book, when I get some money, I will buy them. Also love the Karist basic troop's helmet. Not too fussed on the Karist heavy guys.
I also think that showing your Epirians in some run-down terrain would really highlight their contractor nature. As a final note, seeing your models in natural light and next to other figures from other ranges has done wonders for me. When you're looking a studio shots, you kind of expect brilliance and are a little desensitised to just how crisp and nice they are. Having your models in natural light makes me feel like they've not been touched up after the fact (not that I'm implying you guys would do that!), it highlights the wonderful job winterdyne has done and just makes them seem real. When I see well painted figures in real life I can't help but admire them, even Orks and Space Marines, and I hate Orks and Space Marines.

Showing us some 'combat shots' of your models pitted against each other on a nicely done table would be brilliant in my opinion, but I also appreciate that this might already be on the cards, but with your strategic release schedule that these shots might not have come around yet

All the best,
Ak

Edited to remove typo that do not befit a native English speaker


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Example of Police scheme that I believe would look good on Epirians:

Love the scale comparison. Gives a nice idea of their size. They're actually a little smaller than I was imagining.

 Ozymandias wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
The one with the Lego guy

Man, that Lego faction is completely overpowered!!

Teamwork rule = OP

 jhe90 wrote:
Yay, humans more in proportion! Chaps may take longer to get used too. I guess the concept is a hevey over layer? Ballistic cloth? But then it does not guard the crown jewels though .

I don't know if there's been an 'official' explanation of the chaps, but my take on it was that they weren't supposed to be combat armour, but simply an extra layer of protection against the sorts of environmental conditions that these guys are generally working in.

Remember that they're not hardcore military units. They're essentially tradesmen with military training, operating on some fairly ugly planets. The planet the starter set (and the first novel) focuses on is a fairly barren world that's slowly being terraformed. So the chaps and jackets would just be a little extra protection against the elements.

the contractors are really not my thing, but as they said in the thread as a whole force they will "blend in". Hope we see concepts for other armies spoiled through the kick starter also. anxious to see what else is in store.

 judgedoug wrote:
Nothing remarkable other than the blatant design influence, but, a solid effort.

What's the "blatant design influence"?

Doug was referencing WarZone Bauhaus. I'd link a pic but it's been made clear that doing so would not be welcome, so you'll have to google it.

I actually like those particular figures (Karist Troopers) the best of the three and could even see buying some of them.

The Karist Tempests don't do much for me, entirely aside from the wrist issue. They just look like too much like WH Chaos Warriors (especially the pauldrons, knees, etc) to me. I do like the touches on the rear, but the front/side don't do much for me.

The Epirians (I keep reading it as "Epicurians") just look awful to my eye. Doug broke it down very well - and shoulder pads but no helmets doesn't make any kind of sense for military or construction - but beyond that they're just poorly designed. I'm sure that all of those bothersome elements could be made to look like a good model (rule of cool and all that), but it just hasn't happened here.

Funny.. just writing this opinion/design feedback post that I'd have no problem posting anywhere else on Dakka makes me wonder if I'll be getting piled on or even moderated away for a couple of days.

 Ozymandias wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
The one with the Lego guy

Man, that Lego faction is completely overpowered!!

I hate to say this, but I think I need to make a Lego based Space Marine Army.

Probably about the same price to buy all the figs.

Only two major problems with the design so far. Both of which I can fix with a little green stuff.
The tempest's wrist. *shudders*
and the act the contractors' shoulder pads and nee pads are, as has been pointed out, held up by the same magic that orks guns use. unless they're glued to the fabric, which would be ridiculously stupid.
Now, I'm being blunt with that. And in saying all of that, I have high hopes for this and the tempest is my favourite model you've shown.
Peace.

 insaniak wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:
Yay, humans more in proportion! Chaps may take longer to get used too. I guess the concept is a hevey over layer? Ballistic cloth? But then it does not guard the crown jewels though .

I don't know if there's been an 'official' explanation of the chaps, but my take on it was that they weren't supposed to be combat armour, but simply an extra layer of protection against the sorts of environmental conditions that these guys are generally working in.

Remember that they're not hardcore military units. They're essentially tradesmen with military training, operating on some fairly ugly planets. The planet the starter set (and the first novel) focuses on is a fairly barren world that's slowly being terraformed. So the chaps and jackets would just be a little extra protection against the elements.

That's right - the Contractors are not the elite fighters of the Epirian Foundation - heavy fighting is done by the robots and the trained soldiers from SecDef, the Foundation's military arm. Obviously models are a very subjective thing and we know that not everyone's going to like everything we've done (and you're perfectly entitled to voice that opinion!) Hopefully the text below from the fluff section on Contractors from the rulebook will give people a better idea of the thinking behind the way we designed the models.

Although the Foundation is famous for its robotic units, Contractors are a common sight in nearly all military and security endeavours and typically make up around half of an expeditionary force or security team. In addition to their value as fighters, Contractors are also expected to contribute to the maintenance of Epirian robots and facilities, and the lines between engineer and soldier are frequently blurred. It is just as common to see a Contractor with a spanner in their hand as it is to see them crouched behind a barricade with a rifle.

Contractors consist of wide range of personalities and origins, from rugged individuals eager to seek adventure, to average colonists seeking steady work. Whatever their backstories, enlisting as a Contractor means a life isolated from the masses and lacking access to all the comforts and technologies the Epirian Foundation has to offer. The Foundation is generous to those who volunteer to join its ranks and Contractors and their families get first priority for the colonization of new worlds or, increasingly in these troubled times, berths on evacuation ships.

Originally devised as a militarised security group for protection of Epirian interests, Contractors used to be viewed as little more than simple security and maintenance teams. However, as the Maelstrom has forced a new reality for all living things, Contractors are often found doing some of the hardest work the spiral arm has to offer - front-line military service on worlds which are often about to be destroyed by the Maelstrom, leading attacks on occupied positions with valuable resources, and braving the harsh conditions of space and newly discovered planets. Just as often, they are defending Epirian assets like giant terraforming industrial rigs, orbiting cybel refineries or local civilian populations from vicious and desperate attacks by both sworn enemies and desperate refugees.

In peaceful times, Contractors are also expected to run the giant machines that terraform barren worlds, and even in war they possess more technical expertise than a traditional soldier. The Epirian army relies on its robotic army for heavy fighting, and as well as supporting the drones in combat, Contractors are also trained in battlefield repair, patching up robots damaged by enemy fire.

Most Contractors are equipped with Maglock assault rifles, ruggedly built guns that are easily repaired and still able to fire in the harshest of conditions. Vacuum, desert, swamp or snow, the trooper knows that their rifle will remain functional when it is needed most. Their armour is often makeshift and frequently little more than the safety clothing they wear for maintenance work. Contractors also carry basic computer packs and repair kits enabling them to interact with the Foundation’s robots.

There are visible straps on the model on the back of the leg and under the arm for the kneepads and shoulderpads so they are at least partially functional

 the shrouded lord wrote:
and the act the contractors' shoulder pads and nee pads are, as has been pointed out, held up by the same magic that orks guns use. unless they're glued to the fabric, which would be ridiculously stupid. .

The kneepads have a strap running around the back of the knee. Not the best design, but then corporate uniform decisions aren't always based on what's best when what it costs might potentially be a factor...

As for the shoulder pads, they could conceivably be attached on the inside top edge to the webbing harness running up over the shoulder.


Edit - Also, what Lego said I haven't seen the Epirians in the 'flesh', but I'm happy to take his word for it that there are straps on the shoulders as well that just aren't visible in the pics shown so far.

Again, I'm still loving the designs. They look absolutely fantastic.

Thanks, have some more

I claim credit for forcing legoburner to post those.
Also I need to change my underwear becuause the awesomeness caused me to soil myself.

Imo, the shoulder/knee pads look infinitely better in that green than they do in the metal colouring. It made a huge difference to my eye, and took them from looking a little goofy to looking fine.

To me it's the square cap that really put the Contractors over the top. Aside from the fact that they should be wearing helmets, the cap really reinforces the blockyness of their silhouette and makes them look so LEGO-ish. Look at the sergeant without the cap, he looks much better than the rest of them, but still has the same shoulderpads people have been lamenting. I really think rounded helmets would make them much more appealing.

Definitely agree that the Contractors look better with the alternative paint-scheme, and the Karists just look awesome all around!

I will say that, in this day and age with the levels of digital photography, in some what we are seeing on screen is not a 'true' representation of how most people will see them - at arms length for painting, or further on a tabletop. This is why stuff like IG Cadians and even the classic plastic Space Marine look gak when you see them full-screen in 1280x1040 resolution - in reality you aren't holding the miniature 2cm from your eye and able to view them with crystal definition, and I don't think its a fair measure of the miniature. Not everything needs (or can be) Mierce/Corvus Belli/Dark Age in terms of level of details, and arguably it's wasted anyway when it gets to tabletop play and the painting ability of a majority of players.

I haven't seen these miniatures in person yet, but I'm sure my thoughts are going to be confirmed when I (hopefully!) see them in a week's time at Salute.

I dont care you must make some sort of Ork alien or mutant in the game !!!! or its not DAkka Dakka enough

I don't think anyone thus far has been unfair in their criticisms of the models. A little blunt, mayhaps, but Spiral Arm's people have been around the Internet long enough to know that you need to have your big boy/girl pants on when you present something to the world because not everyone is going to like it.

I'm also not sure that the thread is being heavily censored even if it's being heavily moderated. That increased moderation is not an attempt at mind-control by the mods, it's just an outgrowth of how many are here for obvious reasons. Stereotypically put, it's kind of like if you get pulled for speeding near a Dunkin Donuts; it's not because those roads are monitored as known traffic hazards that they're trying to control, it's more that the police just happened to be there to see it. So...welcome to Dakka Donuts.

Back on the topic proper, those new pictures look very nice. The Karists, wrists aside, look quite good and I like the color schemes the artist(s) chose which really show how varied the look can get while being the same models. I'd be interested to see the Contractors in a more varied color scheme as well; the two shown really aren't THAT dramatically different to my eye, or perhaps the models force anything but extreme contrast to look same-y.

One thing I don't particularly like on the Contractor models is the fist hand and how it's kind of a "blah" part that dominates a good quarter of the model. I understand the tooling requirements and when they were designed is probably the main factor there, but those parts leap out as being identical and reminds me of the old 2nd Ed. Space Marines. I know you guys said they were among the first models and you've gotten better since then, and the Karists certainly say you're correct, but I think the Contractors are a bit jarring in comparison as a result. When I see the group together those arms jump out because it's an easily recognized pattern while the Karists, also assembled from parts that are clearly identical between the pictures, do not because of the subtle differences in posing. Fist arm is going to be fist arm though, or at leas that's how it appears in the pictures thus far.

Hopefully when the KS launches the Epirians will have more dynamic models shown, because those Enclave troopers do look nice.

The kneepads are fine imo but I just can't see any reason for them to have shoulder pads other than, "look, it's a sci-fi model and all sci-fi models must has the shoulder pads" because apparently sci-fi never advanced beyond the 80's in a fashion sense. Naw, none of these guys will ever need to reach the top shelf to get something. Of the models, only the Karist Elites have the segmented shoulder pads that could, could allow for more mobility and range of motion.

The contractors guns are just too blocky and big to be useful unless they're made from some super light alloy. I can't imagine actually using one and with no straps in evidence, how the heck do they carry them around all day? The sight is so wide/tall it would actually block your view of what you're aiming at.

I agree with Judgedoug's take on the wrist issue but since it's a HIPS kit, I'm sure 5 seconds with a file will sort it out; a favor that a Mantic kit never bestowed upon me.

-All that said, I do like the models overall and I'm not getting a Bauhaus vibe. I think that Winterdyne's done a usual fantastic job on the paint and extreme kudos for providing hi-res photos of actual production models; something established companies like Mantic (heh. Judgedoug!) seem completely incapable/unwilling to do, ever.

I should chime in to say that winterdyne is not the only painter - we've used three different studios and the most recent images show work from all three. Lil'legend and Golem are the other two. All the painting services have been really good.

Mymearan wrote:
To me it's the square cap that really put the Contractors over the top. Aside from the fact that they should be wearing helmets, the cap really reinforces the blockyness of their silhouette and makes them look so LEGO-ish. Look at the sergeant without the cap, he looks much better than the rest of them, but still has the same shoulderpads people have been lamenting. I really think rounded helmets would make them much more appealing.

You'll see why we went with the square hats when you put the Contractors up with the rest of the army, it makes them fit in really well.

 legoburner wrote:
Thanks, have some more

Man, that guy looks killer! Not sure if I could pull off this scheme, but I really love it. Makes them look a bit sinister, which given their background I think is a very good thing.

Edit: Do the gun barrels come "pre drilled" like that? That would seemingly imply a sliding pin in the mold, if so...

 RiTides wrote:

 legoburner wrote:
Thanks, have some more

Man, that guy looks killer! Not sure if I could pull off this scheme, but I really love it. Makes them look a bit sinister, which given their background I think is a very good thing.

Does this model shout "Deadpool Army" to anyone other then myself?

Edit: or Deathstroke, whichever your fancy takes you.

As I thought, the contractors look a lot better with matte coloring pads instead of eye-drawing metallics.

The Enclave fellas look excellent in that red. Perhaps an entire army of Deadpools is in the offing...

Stormphoenix wrote:
You'll see why we went with the square hats when you put the Contractors up with the rest of the army, it makes them fit in really well.

Why do people keep saying things like this as if it's a good thing? "You know those square hats you hate? Well expect to see a whole lot more like them in the rest of the army!"

 AlexHolker wrote:

Stormphoenix wrote:
You'll see why we went with the square hats when you put the Contractors up with the rest of the army, it makes them fit in really well.

Why do people keep saying things like this as if it's a good thing? "You know those square hats you hate? Well expect to see a whole lot more like them in the rest of the army!"

Also, as has been mentioned more then once, these guys aren't soldiers. They're workers who've been taught how to shoot straight.

They're not supposed to be fully armed and armoured.


"Here's a gun. Go join your shift crew and defend this factory from those religious nutters. You might get hazard pay if you survive."

 AlexHolker wrote:

Why do people keep saying things like this as if it's a good thing? "You know those square hats you hate? Well expect to see a whole lot more like them in the rest of the army!"

That's not what he said.

 AlexHolker wrote:

Stormphoenix wrote:
You'll see why we went with the square hats when you put the Contractors up with the rest of the army, it makes them fit in really well.

Why do people keep saying things like this as if it's a good thing? "You know those square hats you hate? Well expect to see a whole lot more like them in the rest of the army!"

Or: there will be spider drones, who are blocky robots, and hunter drones, who are blocky robots. All together they will look like one force and you will be able to look at a model that is blocky and know it belongs to that army the same way you can look at a model covered in skulls and know it's imperial.

 legoburner wrote:

Spoiler:

Here are some scale comparison pictures. The first image is Dreamforge Eisenkern, Maelstrom's Edge Epirian Contractor, 40k Imperial Guard, Zombicide survivor, 40k Space Marine, Maelstrom's Edge Karist Tempest, Lego construction worker, Karist Trooper, Mantic Deadzone Orx.









What image do you think would be most appropriate to display on the main kickstarter page as a scale reference?

Thank you so much for including the Lego minifig. This made my day.

I enjoy the appearance of the Epirian contractors en masse. They look like real enough people for my tastes. Also, I like the lower level Karist troopers over the tempests-- they're less broken-wristy like their tempest comrades, but more importantly because the quantity of armor they wear looks more "realistic"-- not a gakton of ceramite like a space marine, but still looking protective.