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 Grey Templar wrote:

 Theophony wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Meh, if you don't like the sculpts thats fair, but really the sculpts are amazing. The detail will let you do a lot, and they're quite posable.

The guns themselves are really impressive. They lose a lot of the blockyness in person.

Paint also can cover some of the issues. I think the stock paint jobs aren't showing the true impressiveness of the miniatures.

They're way better than Guardsmen, thats for sure.

Your post really leaves a sour taste in my mouth.

REALLY

You call these stock paint jobs, but they are the paint jobs from some of Dakkadakkas best painters, and painters used massively by kickstarters. To try and say that the "problem" some of us are having with the figures is due to poor paint jobs is a slap in their faces.

Just my opinion, which I've kept quiet on so far. I hope the game does well as I love dakkadakka and the team, but so far there haven't been any models that I even remotely am interested in. If I can substitute other figures and play a decent rules set then I'll be happy, but so far I'm just not overly impressed.

I don't mean to say they're bad paint jobs. They're not. They just might be causing some exaggeration of the blockyness to some people. The camera adds 10 pounds as the saying goes, especially if it combines with other factors.

By ''stock'' I really just mean that paint job they're using as the examples. Its not to say they are bad. I mean, even GW had good paint jobs on their stock box art models(till recently). Calling them stock isn't an insult.

You really need to see the models in person.


A suggestion for the SaS people. You should post a video of you actually handling the sprues. The static pictures aren't quite doing them justice, it would help to see some actual fingers next to them.

No it's still boils down to you saying the paint jobs are the reason people are not liking these. And that's not the case here. I've seen multiple paint jobs and different angles, the style is not my liking, so I've tried to leave it at that. The creators have even acknowledged the blockiness and the poor wrist pose, and tried to sloth us savage beasts with "they'll look better when you see the robots with them". I've seen the robots with them and between the angles and the chaps they are not my thing.

I've never seen figure look better with a finger in the picture, so I have no idea how that would change my mind.

I don't want to derail anymore with my personal feelings towards the models. They are way better than what I could do, and still have redeeming qualities.

As for the slow trickle of info coming out. I would rather have everything in front of me to make my choices. That's why I've set my reminder for the final 48hours.

Meh, no pleasing some people.

This just really drives home my point, you really need to see them in person. And you know the wrist problems are pretty minor and easily fixed during assembly.

Mymearan wrote:


Honestly I don't understand the "you should see them irl" thing that many people are saying. I've never had to see models in real life before to know if I liked them or not. Photos are always enough in my experience. Don't know why this would be different.

There are dozens of models I didn't care for in seeing photos but liked once I saw them in person. I am part of the same game group as Grey Templar and I too got to see the sprues last night. Honestly, I wasn't overly fond of the Epirian Contractors from the pictures (and was planning on using GW IG for them in my games). Holding the sprues in my hands, seeing the crisp detail, the lack of mold lines, and the general aesthetic (those guns look a lot less blocky in person) and my opinion of these jumped quite a bit. I'm still not sold on the heads, just because of the hats, but that's just my opinion, man, and it isn't like there aren't a million companies producing heads for 28 mm models.

I took a couple pics of the sprue, I'll see if I can get them uploaded today.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Theophony wrote:


No it's still boils down to you saying the paint jobs are the reason people are not liking these. And that's not the case here. I've seen multiple paint jobs and different angles, the style is not my liking, so I've tried to leave it at that. The creators have even acknowledged the blockiness and the poor wrist pose, and tried to sloth us savage beasts with "they'll look better when you see the robots with them". I've seen the robots with them and between the angles and the chaps they are not my thing.

I've never seen figure look better with a finger in the picture, so I have no idea how that would change my mind.

I don't want to derail anymore with my personal feelings towards the models. They are way better than what I could do, and still have redeeming qualities.

As for the slow trickle of info coming out. I would rather have everything in front of me to make my choices. That's why I've set my reminder for the final 48hours.

That's not really what he's saying, I think you're reading a little too much in to his comment.

 Grey Templar wrote:

This just really drives home my point, you really need to see them in person.

Which is meaningless when we are talking about a product being offered through Kickstarter. Most people won't see these in person before the campaign ends, so what you are saying is wait until retail? Probably not, but making a purchase on blind faith isn't a lot of peoples' cup of tea.

 Ozymandias wrote:

Mymearan wrote:


Honestly I don't understand the "you should see them irl" thing that many people are saying. I've never had to see models in real life before to know if I liked them or not. Photos are always enough in my experience. Don't know why this would be different.

There are dozens of models I didn't care for in seeing photos but liked once I saw them in person. I am part of the same game group as Grey Templar and I too got to see the sprues last night. Honestly, I wasn't overly fond of the Epirian Contractors from the pictures (and was planning on using GW IG for them in my games). Holding the sprues in my hands, seeing the crisp detail, the lack of mold lines, and the general aesthetic (those guns look a lot less blocky in person) and my opinion of these jumped quite a bit. I'm still not sold on the heads, just because of the hats, but that's just my opinion, man, and it isn't like there aren't a million companies producing heads for 28 mm models.

I took a couple pics of the sprue, I'll see if I can get them uploaded today.

Don't we already have an image of the Epirian sprue?


This one?


Still just seeing Bob Dole style clenched fists, and stubby, fat arms.

The flat background doesn't do the sprue any favors.

A video examination by an actual person will give you a better idea.

And that picture does the sprue absolutely no justice. The details seem really soft in that pic when they are anything but.

And the arms most remind me of cadian arms, just with more angular shoulder pads.



The only thing I can keep saying is that having seen the actual sprues, my opinion of the epirians went up dramatically (as I said, I wasn't a huge fan before seeing the sprue).

The lack of hands being integrated into the gun itself is also really nice. Putting the gun into the palm will be a little extra work, but I think it results in a much cooler assembly and more options too.

I'm really happy with the quality. I saw them at Salute and it was after that that I decided I'd be pledging for sure.

And man I'm happy I did!

Ok so back on track... the dice are in. Ok so I'm guessing I won't be the only one here thinking that that stretch goal was a bit meh! But heh ho, more dice. I would have preferred custom ones with symbols on (the 6 side, not the 1... dumbass GW) but I am really looking forward to the extra Suppression Markers!

But let's face it, the boxset itself is pretty bang on already!

Still plenty of time to go!

My main issue with the contractors is that they don't appear to be carrying any spare ammunition. I hope they come with some add on ammo pouches because to go into battle with only one magazine even if the rounds are small due to being ceaseless is absurd.

As much as I like the contractor models, I have plenty of conversion ideas anyway.

Because that's the best thing about plastic, right? Ease of conversions.

If you don't like the contractors as standard, change them.

Tibbsy wrote:
As much as I like the contractor models, I have plenty of conversion ideas anyway.

Because that's the best thing about plastic, right? Ease of conversions.

If you don't like the contractors as standard, change them.

Oh I agree completely, 28mm magazine pouches are readily available, but any combat effective troops should have pouches and some sort of webbing to carry them all, they're just not believable without such details and such details should have been included from the initial concept sketches.

I'm in for 2 boxes, but I will be swapping out the contractor models in my force for some of anvil industries unity council marines because they look badass and actually combat effective.

 legoburner wrote:

Mymearan wrote:

Honestly I don't understand the "you should see them irl" thing that many people are saying. I've never had to see models in real life before to know if I liked them or not. Photos are always enough in my experience. Don't know why this would be different.

You've never experienced that? I thought flames of war's WW2 stuff looked horrifyingly bad based on photos online, but when I finally saw the 15mm scale models in the flesh I was sold on their aesthetic, bought some there and then, and now have three full FoW armies (LW Brits, LW SS and LW Soviet).

Yeah, I've found similar things with any number of models.

Macro photography does tend to distort proportions somewhat. Even just looking at the close up photos compared to the further-away shots from the Salute stand, they look quite different.

Mike712 wrote:
My main issue with the contractors is that they don't appear to be carrying any spare ammunition. I hope they come with some add on ammo pouches because to go into battle with only one magazine even if the rounds are small due to being ceaseless is absurd.

I am not worried about that, I have buckets of them in my bits box.

Mike712 wrote:
... because to go into battle with only one magazine even if the rounds are small due to being ceaseless is absurd.

Surely that would depend on how many rounds that magazine holds, no?

If they have sufficient ammunition in one mag for a standard engagement, then carrying extra mags is just carrying extra stuff for no good reason.

 insaniak wrote:

Mike712 wrote:
... because to go into battle with only one magazine even if the rounds are small due to being ceaseless is absurd.

Surely that would depend on how many rounds that magazine holds, no?

If they have sufficient ammunition in one mag for a standard engagement, then carrying extra mags is just carrying extra stuff for no good reason.

The Contractors also aren't actual soldiers. They're mechanics and maintenance men who have access to weaponry in case they get attacked. In which case they may not have enough time to grab extra mags before they're attacked most of the time. And they're certainly not intended to pursue or press the advantage into enemy territory.

 insaniak wrote:

Mike712 wrote:
... because to go into battle with only one magazine even if the rounds are small due to being ceaseless is absurd.

Surely that would depend on how many rounds that magazine holds, no?

If they have sufficient ammunition in one mag for a standard engagement, then carrying extra mags is just carrying extra stuff for no good reason.

Being as around 5mm is probably the smallest effective caliber, regardless of the velocity the round travels, plus it's roughly the smallest round that would be effected by magnetic induction and to be combat effective while putting out sustained suppression fire over the course of a skirmish firefight you're looking at somewhere in the region of 300 rounds(what actual troops tend to carry) this seems unlikely. Basic maths tells us that the volume of a 5x10mm projectile is 196.35 mm3 (ignoring the tapered point) times this by 300, gives us a necessary magazine volume of 58905mm3 or 5890.5cm3, the cube rout of which is 18.05, so you're looking at a single magazine of 18cm by 18cm by 18cm before you even factor in feed mechanism, I guess their guns have been accused of being blocky.... but really? That's a pretty chunky and impractical magazine and certainly not depicted on the models.

Can we just accept that some people might have different tastes to you.

Your wrong about not liking them you have to see then next to the drones
your wrong about not liking them you have to see them unpainted
your wrong about not liking them you have to see the in person

Some people just don't like the designs guys and that's ok. Not everyone likes the same thing

Mike712 wrote:
...what actual troops tend to carry...

Well, there's the thing... They're not actual troops.


But who knows? Maybe their ammo is some sort of space-saving, expanding polymer. Maybe they're resupplied as necessary by aerial drone. Maybe their rifles are actually energy weapons, and what looks like a magazine is actually the trooper's water bottle...

Not saying extra gubbins wouldn't be nice. Just not something I see as a big deal, particularly on scifi models.

 insaniak wrote:

Mike712 wrote:
...what actual troops tend to carry...

Well, there's the thing... They're not actual troops.


But who knows? Maybe their ammo is some sort of space-saving, expanding polymer. Maybe they're resupplied as necessary by aerial drone. Maybe their rifles are actually energy weapons, and what looks like a magazine is actually the trooper's water bottle...

Not saying extra gubbins wouldn't be nice. Just not something I see as a big deal, particularly on scifi models.

No not actual troops, but suppression fire is a key feature of the game, suppression fire demands high volumes of continuous fire output, for suppression fire you need LOTS of ammo.

Well their guns are not energy weapons that is for certain, as it has already been stated that they are magnetic induction type weapons, hence the term maglock.

Expanding polymers are out, the round has to be of ferrous nature due to the magnetic technology used.

Resupply drones are semi plausible I guess, but realistically would never be practical.

Remember this is supposed to be hard sifi so this sort of stuff needs proper scientific explanation, or it becomes pure sifi fantasy.

The bullets are metal, otherwise they wouldn't work with the magnetic acceleration rifles.

No aerial resupply drones were mentioned.

They aren't energy weapons, the books say they aren't.

Unless you'd have us dismiss the much touted books that seem to have been purpose developed to help sell people on the setting (and they do, at least me).


But I think your maybes and whatifs are kind of silly when they specifically developed the fluff books ahead of time and in which the contractors live on a barracks and seem like they'd have fairly uniform gear. I mean sure they seem to do a lot of mechanic work on the side... but still.

Just because you love a thing... it doesn't necessitate that any and all criticism of that thing is bad/wrong/etc.

Contractors could probably use some kit. Space marines don't have it either though so its not exactly like the MEdge models would be the first guilty parties. Some people don't like painting busy models and leaving off the kit leaves those people free to leave it, and people like me to pile on the gubbins.

But the sentiment that SAS/MEdge can Do No Wrong that seems supported both by the studio and its vocal supporters here is just... really... offputting. I have a 90 dollar pledge in but the sentiments hereabouts are just driving me away.

 Grey Templar wrote:
This just really drives home my point, you really need to see them in person.

I've only commented once on the models as they aren't to my taste but I can't leave this uncontested. Whilst I know there are those that like the miniatures, I saw these in the flesh at Salute and was even more disappointed with them than previously. Whilst the shoulder pads aren't as bad as the photos make out, the photos don't do justice to how awful the hats, blocky arms and ridiculous guns are.
Some people like these miniatures and think they are good. But for some of us even seeing them in person is not enough to convince us they are worth the money and that is a perfectly valid opinion to hold.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

This just really drives home my point, you really need to see them in person.

Which is meaningless when we are talking about a product being offered through Kickstarter. Most people won't see these in person before the campaign ends, so what you are saying is wait until retail? Probably not, but making a purchase on blind faith isn't a lot of peoples' cup of tea.

Then what are those people (the ones without blind faith) even doing on Kickstarter?

I mean, really. "Here's my money. Come back in a year, or two years, and give me something resembling what you're talking about right now."

 GrimDork wrote:
.

Just because you love a thing... it doesn't necessitate that any and all criticism of that thing is bad/wrong/etc..

I never said, or in any way implied, that the criticism was bad or wrong. Just stated an opinion that it wasn't a big deal.

 solkan wrote:

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

This just really drives home my point, you really need to see them in person.

Which is meaningless when we are talking about a product being offered through Kickstarter. Most people won't see these in person before the campaign ends, so what you are saying is wait until retail? Probably not, but making a purchase on blind faith isn't a lot of peoples' cup of tea.

Then what are those people (the ones without blind faith) even doing on Kickstarter?

I mean, really. "Here's my money. Come back in a year, or two years, and give me something resembling what you're talking about right now."

Presumably people on Kickstarter are backing items they like (without needing to hold the item to be certain).

Ozy and Grey Templar are speaking to the folks who don't like what they see, and aren't backing, and you are trying to win us over with claims of, "trust us, guys these minis are cool." Sorry. I don't trust you. I don't believe you. And I am not going to part with money because you changed your mind after seeing the sprues in person. That is a leap of faith that seems absurd to make.


*edit sorry solkan, got you mixed up with Ozy.

Insaniak, I didn't mean that as a personal attack against you, more for the thread at large. Just seems to me like people can't offer negative criticism without someone coming around and dismissing it. That's all. Probably too grumpy today to be constructively posting so I'll head out.

We love the depth of thought over the Epirian ammo storage situation

The Epirians have two pouches, one on each leg. The magazine which slots into the bottom of the rifle is the combined energy source and caseless ammo container. The caseless ammo is driven by the Maglock mechanism, not conventional explosives, so a lot more can fit into a smaller space, and even nuts and bolts and other ferrous metal junk will fire somewhat functionally through the gun in a pinch (but with next to no accuracy of course).

Note this from the rifle description posted in the KS updates a while ago:

The caseless rounds used in the assault rifle are designed to be interchangeable with many other weapons systems including those mounted on drone units

As such, the actual reloadable bullet elements are smaller and inserted into the rear of the master magazine. The bullets run out before the energy supply, so rather than carrying more than is needed, the bullet elements of the magazine are ejected and replaced within the larger 'full' magazine itself. Because of this standardisation around a small shape, contractors and drones can resupply each other without having to reload full magazines.

 GrimDork wrote:
. Just seems to me like people can't offer negative criticism without someone coming around and dismissing it.

Yup, that will happen. Just as people who offer positive feedback are dismissed by those who disagree. That's pretty much how discussion works.

Someone disagreeing with your opinion isn't a statement that your opinion is invalid. It's just a statement that they disagree with you.

The fact that the spruces at salute had no mold likes really doesn't mean anything about quality. Remember these are the first runs of the spruces off the machine. Give them 1000 shots and then take a look, or 10000 shots, look at GW models in comparison, the first models that are produced look great, but I've gotten tactical and assault spruces which have terrible mood lines from wear. What needs to be judged is overall design and some

 Theophony wrote:
Give them 1000 shots and then take a look, or 10000 shots

Our contracts guarantee our tools for 100,000 shots, and if there is any notable decay including mould lines and flash, we get it retooled at our supplier's expense. Low mould lines are something we can promise for sure!

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

 solkan wrote:

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

This just really drives home my point, you really need to see them in person.

Which is meaningless when we are talking about a product being offered through Kickstarter. Most people won't see these in person before the campaign ends, so what you are saying is wait until retail? Probably not, but making a purchase on blind faith isn't a lot of peoples' cup of tea.

Then what are those people (the ones without blind faith) even doing on Kickstarter?

I mean, really. "Here's my money. Come back in a year, or two years, and give me something resembling what you're talking about right now."

Presumably people on Kickstarter are backing items they like (without needing to hold the item to be certain).

Ozy and Grey Templar are speaking to the folks who don't like what they see, and aren't backing, and you are trying to win us over with claims of, "trust us, guys these minis are cool." Sorry. I don't trust you. I don't believe you. And I am not going to part with money because you changed your mind after seeing the sprues in person. That is a leap of faith that seems absurd to make.


*edit sorry solkan, got you mixed up with Ozy.

Look, I'm someone who didn't like the Epirian contractors based on the photos I saw. Then I was lucky enough to see the sprues in person, and all my misgivings about them (save the heads, but like I said, there is a plethora of alt heads out there so I'm not really bothered) went away. I'm not saying everyone who dislikes the models is wrong, just that my dislike of the models changed once I got to hold them and yours might too. I don't get why that is such a hard concept.