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The Icestorm book very kindly shows viable purchases to expand our starter forces.

I like the Jotum on paper, but the Cutter, Squalos and Dragoe (?!) look miles better imo.

There's not too much in it points wise between them all, but do they play that differently?

I like the idea of a big hefty TAG terrifying the enemy whilst I have some drop troop/sniper types dropping them from front and rear!

Dragao = so firepower, much pew-pew, many bang
Cutter = TO Tag ... 'nuff said (no CQB weapons though)
Squalo = HGL (If you take the HFT, might as well take the Dragao)
Jotum = ARM 13 in cover and BTS 9

The combination of drop troops + (expensive) TAG doesn't work really well as they're both order-intensive
Having TR HMG remotes and snipers to cover the flanks of your TAG are an excellent idea though !

 TanKoL wrote:

Dragao = so firepower, much pew-pew, many bang
Cutter = TO Tag ... 'nuff said (no CQB weapons though)
Squalo = HGL (If you take the HFT, might as well take the Dragao)
Jotum = ARM 13 in cover and BTS 9

The combination of drop troops + (expensive) TAG doesn't work really well as they're both order-intensive
Having TR HMG remotes and snipers to cover the flanks of your TAG are an excellent idea though !

That's a great summary, thanks TanKoL.

But I'm not seeing the part where I have my cake AND get to eat it?!

I was considering getting the Auxilia box but I hate the dodgy human poses. The Peacemaker and Auxbot set looks good. Heavy FT and a Spit Fire.

I might go down the remote route first, then work up to a TAG. I hope to eventually have enough options to keep my lists fresh.

 monders wrote:
But I'm not seeing the part where I have my cake AND get to eat it?!

Hard to in Infinity. Really expensive things like TAGs and Joan fireteams are a massive portion of your list, a normal 300pt game is actually too small to do multiple big expensive things effectively (two-TAG lists are theoretically possible but it'd be one-dimensional, lacking in support, and it'd have one point of failure that'd get wrecked the instant a twenty-point hacker grabs one of your TAGs and blows the other up with it).

Big thing to remember when using TAGs is that they're not tanks, they're really big overarmed HI and they should be played like it. If you get one in a firefight with a lot of well-armed targets it will die. You usually build your army around the TAG; if you're going to dump eighty or a hundred points into one model you need to make sure you're going to get the most out of it, you don't want it to get hacked and kill all your stuff. If you try to use the TAG to remove anti-tank weapons you're giving the anti-tank weapons a free shot at the TAG, if you have infantry to kill the missile launchers they don't. Your infantry should be clearing the flanks and running about removing threats to the big guy, preventing hackers and repeaters from getting in close, dropping the monofilament Oniwaban before he one-shots it, et cetera. In objective-based missions you also have the problem that the TAG is a hundred points of not specialists, regular folks also need to compensate for that.

That is some excellent TAG 101 information, thanks for taking the time to be so comprehensive. I really didn't think hackers were THAT good. I won't be buying any for my wife's Nomads...

As I mention above, I'll probably build up to a TAG via remotes once I've had a few more games.

I keep forgetting about specialists too, so I'll need to keep swatting up on the rules. Thank you CB for the free pdf download!

 monders wrote:
That is some excellent TAG 101 information, thanks for taking the time to be so comprehensive. I really didn't think hackers were THAT good. I won't be buying any for my wife's Nomads...

All it takes is one Alguacil and some good rolls. My opponent was careless with a Szalamandra my last game, I grabbed it with an Order Sergeant hacker I had on hand to Fairy Dust my HI and killed a lot with it.

Do you make your opponent move the hacked model too, and roll the dice?!

"Would you mind awfully, Old Chap, just shifting that TAG in to a better firing position facing your Specialists? Thanks. And now - FIRE AT THEM".

The Jotum is the most versatile model: It's huge armor and BTS makes it the toughest model in the game to kill once hit, with only the Avatar in general harder to beat in a shoot-out.

Squalo is only really useful vs the alternatives if you need the HGL for fire support.

Dragao is the other general purpose model: It's main advantage is long range firepower on the active turn.

Cutter is the most devastating model if employed correctly. TO Camoflage on a heavy TAG is an unprecedentedly powerful ability, but it requires some backup to engage enemies that get under it's closer range bands.

 monders wrote:

 TanKoL wrote:

Dragao = so firepower, much pew-pew, many bang
Cutter = TO Tag ... 'nuff said (no CQB weapons though)
Squalo = HGL (If you take the HFT, might as well take the Dragao)
Jotum = ARM 13 in cover and BTS 9

The combination of drop troops + (expensive) TAG doesn't work really well as they're both order-intensive
Having TR HMG remotes and snipers to cover the flanks of your TAG are an excellent idea though !

That's a great summary, thanks TanKoL.

But I'm not seeing the part where I have my cake AND get to eat it?!

I was considering getting the Auxilia box but I hate the dodgy human poses. The Peacemaker and Auxbot set looks good. Heavy FT and a Spit Fire.

I might go down the remote route first, then work up to a TAG. I hope to eventually have enough options to keep my lists fresh.

As a bonus, if you get the Peacemaker/Auxbot set?

You can run them as Bulleteer Armbots instead of Peacemakers and use the Auxbot and an Indigo SpecOps to make an Auxilia.

In all honesty I find the squalo to not be as good as one would think. At any point I would take a cutter over a squalo because of the To camo. The last time I took a squalo it got to meet the autocannon and was just blown apart

 ShatteredBlade wrote:
In all honesty I find the squalo to not be as good as one would think. At any point I would take a cutter over a squalo because of the To camo. The last time I took a squalo it got to meet the autocannon and was just blown apart

Neoterra can't take Cutters.
Military Orders can't take Cutters.
ASA can't take Cutters.

The Squalo, Dragoes, etc are fine when played within their Sectorials. The fact that the Cutter is still TO and available to Vanilla is when it shines compared to the others.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 ShatteredBlade wrote:
In all honesty I find the squalo to not be as good as one would think. At any point I would take a cutter over a squalo because of the To camo. The last time I took a squalo it got to meet the autocannon and was just blown apart

Neoterra can't take Cutters.
Military Orders can't take Cutters.
ASA can't take Cutters.

The Squalo, Dragoes, etc are fine when played within their Sectorials. The fact that the Cutter is still TO and available to Vanilla is when it shines compared to the others.

I play both Neoterra and regular pan o. I find that even in Neo terra the squalo still isn't as good as an uhlan (I proxy it). however, as always, YMMV

There is also a ~20 point difference.

In NCA I think I'd prefer an Uhlan over the Squalo. I think the Squalo's trick is its HGL, which requires a bit of investement in forward observers to make devastating (and more orders to get the required statuses on targets).

 Riquende wrote:
There is also a ~20 point difference.

In NCA I think I'd prefer an Uhlan over the Squalo. I think the Squalo's trick is its HGL, which requires a bit of investement in forward observers to make devastating (and more orders to get the required statuses on targets).

Lets not kid ourselves though, when it comes to NCA we're just going to take two swiss guard over any T.A.G anyways

Between the Uhlan and the Squalo? The Uhlan is a more specialized tool and a better fire support platform, the Squalo is a bigger threat after the other guy gets close because of the pistol and increased CC capability. I haven't done all the math but I'm not convinced a Feuerbach is actually better than a MULTI HMG against a single armoured target (though the Camo making it easier to win firefights might tip it), the Squalo's MULTI HMG is a bigger threat to multiple lighter targets than the Uhlan's plain HMG because of AP/Shock, and the Squalo has a larger silhouette and more armour.

They're different tools, not sure I'd call one strictly better (as in always take the one over the other in every situation better) than the other.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ShatteredBlade wrote:

 Riquende wrote:
There is also a ~20 point difference.

In NCA I think I'd prefer an Uhlan over the Squalo. I think the Squalo's trick is its HGL, which requires a bit of investement in forward observers to make devastating (and more orders to get the required statuses on targets).

Lets not kid ourselves though, when it comes to NCA we're just going to take two swiss guard over any T.A.G anyways

You do get fifty points of other stuff with the TAG, though, Swiss Guard are expensive.

I prefer to think the Swiss is amazingly cheap compared to a TAG and use the 20-30 pts 'saved' on other shinies.

As for TS: the Dragoe does not compare all that favourably to a Jotum, IMO. The added survivability of the Jotum, especially in cover, makes up for the 4 shots instead of 5 and keep in mind the Jotum gets to fire DA in ARO, while the Drâgao only gets to fire AP. 9 times out of 10 (actually more than that, but I digress) EXP beats AP (and usually, vastly so) in lethality.
...And it's still more survivable.
Not to mention the D.E.P.: never quite got around to using it, but AP+EXP makes for an even more interesting ARO shot, if only once.

The one thing the Drâgao really does (much) better than the Jotum is hunting other TAGs, and even that only in it's active round (5 shots DAM 14 AP vs 4 shots DAM 15 vanilla).
IMO, that's not what you bring a ~100pt model for. (And honestly, if I were to go TAG hunting I'd bring my Cutter already. Seriously, that TO will ruin anyone's day).

Oh, and keep in mind that bringing both a TAG and drop troops (you seem to be using the plural form there...) will play serious havoc either on your total no of orders or your ability to bring pretty much any other shiny. Only so much you can do in 300pts and TAGs tend to take a rather fearsome bite out of that budget already, I'm afraid. We also rather lack the very cheap drop troops some other factions can bring to bear (or to tiger, as the case might be).

You're playing MULTI HMGs wrong mate (or just confused while writing and mixing things up)
It's:
- 4 DMG15 AP/Shock shots in the active turn
- 1 DMG 15 EXP shot in the reactive turn

 TanKoL wrote:
You're playing MULTI HMGs wrong mate (or just confused while writing and mixing things up)
It's:
- 4 DMG15 AP/Shock shots in the active turn
- 1 DMG 15 EXP shot in the reactive turn

The Dragao has an HRMC (5 DMG 15 AP/Shock shots or one DMG 15 DA shot), not a MULTI HMG.

(Also the MULTI HMG's anti-material mode shot is DA, not EXP).

Was that errata'd? The pdf and printed copy have it listed as EXP.

xera32 wrote:
Was that errata'd? The pdf and printed copy have it listed as EXP.

I just double checked and I have two sources saying different things, book says EXP so I'm going to go with that for now.

The Dragao still has an HRMC, though, not a MULTI HMG.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
(Also the HRMC has an anti-material mode that uses, you guessed it, DA ammo)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nope, I was actually reading something else. MULTI HMG, four AP/Shock shots or one EXP shot, HRMC, five AP/Shock shots or one DA shot, same damage values, the HRMC is +0 at 32-48 instead of -3, otherwise they're identical.

Sorry guys, was still talking from n2 'muscle memory' a bit.
(MHMG is still better in ARO, though not as much anymore now).

I know the Dragao doesn't have an MHMG, was talking about the Jotum