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Hey Dakka!

I had this question sort of browsing 30k and HH related threads - Is there a general dislike of Black Library's Horus Heresy Series and what it has done to the fluff?

Every so often, when people talk about fluff, someone brings up "the mess the series has made of the 30k history", but I'm not quite sure what that means? Granted, I've only been around since 5th ed started, and I gather there was a lot more fluff around the RT days, but I always found the HH series to be an amazing exploration of a time that was only really referenced and shrouded in mystery .

Has the HH series messed with the pre-heresy fluff or whatever continuity was previously established? And are people taking this as the new 30k history, or as something contradictory to what is already established?

Cheers,
Jpog

I'm confused too. Never heard anyone saying anything about this series contradicting previous 30k fluff or anything like that [even though I don't read the 40k background section much]

Not an impression I've got as a majority view. Certainly some people find the exposure of what had always been something of a half-true, mythical part of the 40K universe distasteful.

As a vet of 2nd Ed as a player (and RT as a fan) I find the stories of what happened generally more interesting, personally.

What is far more common is criticism of the patchy writing quality and the way that BL has eased up on pushing the core narrative forward (I don't think Horus has got closer to Terra in about 3 years now) and started publishing fundamentally irrelevant stories which don't actually add anything to the story of the Heresy and simply take place against the backdrop of it, and the fractured way those stories are told (e books, LE Novellas, audio books, LE Audio Novellas etc.)

Then you take the dissatisfaction the switch from MMPB to Hardback generated (myself included) and you have a lot of jaded people where once there were many enthusiastic fans.

For me, the switch to HB and my desire to keep all my books in the same format was what did it for me. I had initially been mad keen on the whole series, had the signed versions of the first couple of Novellas etc etc. Equally, I was essentially reading exclusively BL books, I was exploring other titles in between HH releases. The long gap between titles after the switch meant I sought out other books and writers, and now I only buy the core HH books when they release in MMPB and nothing else to speak of.

Indeed what A13 said, the writing quality is all over the place, plus the immense amount of padding taking place has effectively killed off most interest I had for this series. Add in the long wait for a paperback to be released and you've got a winner...

 Azreal13 wrote:
Not an impression I've got as a majority view. Certainly some people find the exposure of what had always been something of a half-true, mythical part of the 40K universe distasteful.

This.

I hate the fact they've pulled back far too much of the curtain.

It generally seems pretty popular as they keep making them and people keep buying them. If they would do away with the whole "Special Editions" release structure they would have more that were on the NYT Best Sellers list.

Obviously some are stronger than others - but in general they seem fairly well received.

Absolutely loved it for a few years, but lost the connection with it when the switch to HB came. Although some of the stories are excellent, I liked the more 'pulpy' feel with the softbacks and think it suited the material better. These aren't the kind of books you should be paying so much for, and the change to ltd edition and special covers struck me as rather pretentious, compounded by the sheer volume of material that I think has probably overwhelmed all but the most ardent followers.

In terms of the stories, as a core component, I did think they had a real opportunity to make the fall of Horus something along of the lines of Game of Thrones/I, Claudius/House of Cards etc (even Paradise Lost, which funnily enough I had heard the idea behind Horus' rebellion had initially been based on) of Machiavellian manoeuvring by Horus and the other Primarchs playing the power game to take control of the greatest empire humanity has ever known. I think that would have worked wonderfully with the setting. But, there doesn't ever seem to have been a discourse about this central tenet of the storyline, and what we were left with seems rather unfocused and incomplete. Horus being stabbed by a magic sword and then turning evil; essentially, "A wizard did it". While that was fine line for an episode of Xena: Warrior Princess, it's remarkably lightweight considering we're dealing with a book series lasting dozens of novels, most likely over a decade or more, and actually the foundation of the entire 40k background..

There is some criticism of the HH series (some of it well founded), but overall, I think it's pretty well regarded, especially for media tie in work. They have generally done very well in sales, as well. Overall, I have really enjoyed them, with rare exceptions.

From the standpoint of a new reader, or a reviewer, few of the HH novels work very well as a standalone work. I'm not sure that many people who aren't familiar with the setting would get them, and I KNOW that you can get a lot more enjoyment out of them if you have read more of the series, as it adds more depth that isn't present in one book.

The biggest problem with them is the whole game that BL plays in releasing them. You have super-rare event only stuff. You have limited edition hardcovers. You have hardcovers. You have trade paperbacks. You have mass markets. You have print editions hitting GW stores a month before bookstores (and if you live the swathes of the US without a GW store, suck it up). You have ebook (and e-novella, and e-shorts). You have anthologies, which collect stories that were previously only available at events, but also stick in stories that were available elsewhere. You have audio 'dramas' covering prime material (which I hate, because I don't like that format personally, but I would still like to buy the story from BL).

It makes it really hard for people who DO like the HH period, and who would just like to read the damn stuff (without paying through the nose or waiting a year after release) to actually get the stuff. I'm not asking for it for free, but $5 short stories in ebook format is just ridiculous, especially when they are often released later in a collected format for about $1 each.

I think a lot of the criticism of the series would go away if all the super-rare, super-deluxe, super-expensive stuff would be presented as an option, and people could also just buy everything in dead tree format for $10 a book or something. Movie popcorn isn't bad--but the prices for it are stupid.

My tastes are a bit odd. I adored Ciaphas Cain's series, and I'm pretty happy with the Space Marine series, especially the BT/Third War of Armageddon and CF/Rynn's World books, but I found the first Horus Heresy book to be... dull. It started well enough, but for someone supposedly charismatic prior to his corruption, Horus came off as an overenthusiastic fourteen year old who's been made J-Var captain. I was honestly more often entertained by the asides with the civies, especially the one developing into an early stage Sororitas/Ministorum. But it was too broken, and criminy, while I understand you can't always show as much as the show, not tell saying goes, when you slather things on as heavily as 'seeing Horus through the eyes of his men' please, for the love of the Emperor, don't make me start thinking that the viewpoint characters are scribbling on their peechee folders.

So as a result, I've never really read much of the rest. I've heard some good things about the Loyalist side, like making Guilliman into a believable logistics-and-big-picture general-philosopher rather than a fanboy's Marine Jesus to the Big E's The Father, and that when we look at some of the Traitors who DIDN'T want to go down the rosethorned path, they're made more sympathetic and less cartoon villain a la Magnus at the Fenris geneseed banks, but I just really was turned off by that first book. I keep meaning to go back; as a Dresden Files Fan, I know I recommend people start with Summer Knight and go back later, so I -should- be more forgiving, but...

 Pacific wrote:
Absolutely loved it for a few years, but lost the connection with it when the switch to HB came. Although some of the stories are excellent, I liked the more 'pulpy' feel with the softbacks and think it suited the material better. These aren't the kind of books you should be paying so much for, and the change to ltd edition and special covers struck me as rather pretentious, compounded by the sheer volume of material that I think has probably overwhelmed all but the most ardent followers.

That's my issue with the books too. Their a fun books to read dureing long trips on public transport. It's easy to put the book down and come back to it, and read over the course of a a few weeks. But I'd rather buy a cheap paper back I won't feel guilty if it gets beat up in my book bag, then a expensive hard back.

I've rather enjoyed the HH series so far; I like the paperback appeal, and as said above the pulpy-ness of the books. They are a very approachable and vast series of stories in a near limitless universe. So many stories to tell of a galaxy spanning civil war; from the short story collections to chapter/primarch specific books, they are on the whole excellent.

If one wants to read Proust or "War and Peace" then do so. If you want a fun sci-fi book that is easy to digest and pro-hobby, the HH books are perfect.

It's the padding and the fact that they seem hell bent in putting out more and more limited edition and event only things rather than just getting on with the story they started telling.

It's why I live in perpetual fear that the FW HH series is going to head down the same path, releasing very expensive books to cover minor boarding actions rather than big events like Prospero and the Siege of Terra.

I enjoyed the first 3 or 4 books quite well. But once it became clear they were never going to make it to the end-game (or at least not without 100 books in-between), I lost interest.

Liking the series, some interesting side characters but azreal13 is right some of these writers have only certain things they are good at while doing other things that makes the mind boggle.

Similar to everyone else, really. I think they've been very well received and followed, and the majority of the books are very good. in fact, the best ones are probably the best BL novels out there - the way the early novels deal with the 'regular' humans, and the way the cultures of the different space marine legions are made believable (Space Wolves, Thousand Sons, Alpha Legion) is brilliant.

However, there are also a fair few '40k adventure stories' that have literally nothing to do with the 30k setting and seem a bit crowbarred in, and these largely irrelevant stories are becoming more and more common as main novels (whereas before they were mostly confined to the LE books and novellas). Endless bands of superheroes getting together to chase anither bit of priceless yet never before mentioned technology, or convoluted plots so that five Primarchs can get tinge her and have a fight.

I read them all the same, but here's my suggestions:

- The first four novels (and Fulgrim) are brilliant and worth a read - they're sequential.
- Everything with the Space Wolves, White Scars, Ultramarines, World Eaters, Word Bearers, Thousand Sons and Luna Wolves in is pretty good.
- Battle for the Abyss is the worst thing ever written.
- The first Dark Angels and Alpha Legion novels are great, but later they turn into campy boys-own adventures split across a million ebooks.
- Everything with the Salamanders, Raven Guard, Night Lords and Iron Hands in might as well be 40k Space Marine Battles novels and are basically irrelevant.
- The first few Anthologies and a decent amount of the novellas are really interesting looks as the world of the 30th millennium, but the later anthologies just basically keep you caught up with the mini plot lines.

 ArbitorIan wrote:
- The first few Anthologies and a decent amount of the novellas are really interesting looks as the world of the 30th millennium, but the later anthologies just basically keep you caught up with the mini plot lines.

This. Especially with the smaller three page "quick reads" that not only provide more padding, but also these stupid references or tie-ins to future stuff or things left unmentioned elsewhere..

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
and the fact that they seem hell bent in putting out more and more limited edition and event only things

This and the HC-based price/release structuring broke the camel's back for me. IMO, the quality of HH novels is generally reasonable at 9 USD. As the price goes up, so do my standards and the HH novels have not kept up.

What HH series? I haven't bothered putting very much money on Black Library books to begin with and 30K is so far down the list that I'll buy backflipping terminators before it.

There is a simple rule to predict how good a HH book is. If it is written by Dan Abnett and contains as little space marines as possible it is probably one of the better.

The worst one is the one where the salamanders fight dinosaurs. It is like it is written by a 7-year old.

 jorny wrote:
There is a simple rule to predict how good a HH book is. If it is written by Dan Abnett and contains as little space marines as possible it is probably one of the better.

The worst one is the one where the salamanders fight dinosaurs. It is like it is written by a 7-year old.

Totally agree. The more normal humans, the better the book.

that said plenty of people enjoy the HH series so don't think it's universally panned. unless a book's just released people are rarely gonna comment on a passage they thought was GOOD. but consider the number of discusssions on the primarchs etc. those are essentially Horus Heresy discussions

I really love the stories, but the 'dead end' stories do bug me. I don't mind the short story collections as long as you can skip them. I do get hacked off with the limited edition stuff and novellas. The fact that the 'core book' for Tallarn - one of the big named battles - was a limited edition really burned me a bit.

That said, some of the books are truly brilliant.

At the same time, the Horus Heresy was supposed to last less than a decade. Given that Horus Rising came out in 2006, the book series is going to go on for significantly longer than the war it's about....

I enjoyed it immensely at the start and was really happy that we were getting insight into the biggest most mythical story ever told in WH40K. Then the stories kept being churned out and the filler got more and more and worse and worse and I eventually felt that I wished that they had kept it as it was previously, a few stories here and there with the vast majority of it lost to the ages, a true time of legend. Something about it being fleshed out has made it seem less awesome and it made it seem smaller and over a shorter time period than it actually was. I, at times, also don't like the way in which they rewrite some of the established stuff to fit in with the new vision of it.

The quality of the books fluctuates too dramatically and there have been some that shouldn't perhaps be part of the series or shouldn't exist at all. And then you have the consistency of the books that seems to be all over the place. For a series set on events in the same period you would hope that they would follow on from each other and keep established details the same throughout.

I did attempt to keep up with the series, buying the CDs, limited editions and the mmpbs, but now I only buy the mmpbs. The reason for this is because the limited editions get released later on, not just in the anthologies which I was already aware of and happy about, but as actual hardbacks. The CDs also get released in anthologies now to. So I don't really want to own a couple of different versions of the same thing. Then you have all the .ebooks etc and it's just all over the place.

The best Heresy stuff is Blighs or anything which was written pre - Horus Rising

I don't dislike them I just dislike things about them.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Not an impression I've got as a majority view. Certainly some people find the exposure of what had always been something of a half-true, mythical part of the 40K universe distasteful.

This.

I hate the fact they've pulled back far too much of the curtain.

I'm very much in this camp. It was a mythic time, with little concrete info, and so much room for theories and possibilities. I would have preferred it to remain so. However, as someone (rightly) pointed out to me at the time, arguing that it should be the way I want it, is to argue that that the people who do enjoy it, shouldn't get to.

So, yeah, unhappy: but accepting.

I enjoyed the first several books - I think I got 6 or 7 in? Don't recall off the top of my head. My interest waned, however, as the incredible amount of padding came to the forefront and it seemed dubious at best that they'll ever finish the damned series.

I have more confidence that FW's Horus Heresy line will actually reach the Siege of Terra than the Black Library books - and maybe that need to continue the game product will get Black Library to start moving things forwards again, but as they say 'round these parts: hope is the first step along the road to disappointment. (I still hear that phrase in my head in Isador Akios' voice from DoW1)

The series really faltered as it lost direction - Descent of Angels is where I really noticed it, which while not an awful book on its own and a good look into the origin of the Dark Angels, it contributes nothing to the overall narrative which was reaching some pretty interesting places when I had last left Loken on Istvaan III and the crew of the Eisenstein had reached their destination (though I can't say I like the character of Garro all that much, less a criticism of the writing, more "all duty all the time" has never been someone I can relate to) and jolting back to early Crusade, and leaving the book with no real connection to everything the Loken and Garro arc, along with Fulgrim, had moved towards was jarring as all hell. Especially when looking through the product line it'd be a very, very long time before we got back there.

Now, I understand, background is important; the only reason I cared about Galaxy in Flames and such is Horus Rising did such a good job setting the stage (putting abnett in charge of the tone setter made perfect sense; say what you will, man can set a scene and tone extremely well), but people are interested in The Horus Heresy not various sideplots of little consequence. When introducing another legion of set of characters, it needs to go somewhere meaningful - Legion did this quite well despite being decades earlier as it all leads to why the Alpha Legion chose the side they did, quite explicitly covering their "betrayal" years before everything else and clearly defines their character in a well developed way. Descent of angels makes tiny little implications at the end of the book to Luther being slighted slightly while we follow another cast around of little to no real significance. Nothing is really accomplished in terms of the whole narrative that couldn't have been done in a fraction of the space.

I didn't dislike the book, but when I finished I said to myself, "Why was this written? What was the point?" There's no shortage of books with the same sin in the series now, and don't contribute much to the setting as a whole - at least DoA explained, sort of, the origin of "Cypher" and the monastic roots of the Dark Angels. What, exactly, does Battle for the Abyss do again?

locarno24 wrote:
I really love the stories, but the 'dead end' stories do bug me. I don't mind the short story collections as long as you can skip them. I do get hacked off with the limited edition stuff and novellas. The fact that the 'core book' for Tallarn - one of the big named battles - was a limited edition really burned me a bit.

That said, some of the books are truly brilliant.

At the same time, the Horus Heresy was supposed to last less than a decade. Given that Horus Rising came out in 2006, the book series is going to go on for significantly longer than the war it's about....

yeah as an iron warriors fan I wasn't too happy about them making the Talleran novel a LE. honestly, I think LE novels are just idiotic anyway, as I suspect the end result is people just pirate the damned thing.

I like those written by Graham McNeill. (Iron warriors (not HH) was good too, but I ended to dislike Iron Warriors)

A general dislike? I don't think so. I love them, and so do many others. Of course there are people who dislike them for a variety of reasons, but I don't think there is a general dislike. The biggest issue I have with them is their price.

At first, I wasn't bothered; in a way I like the idea of the huge setting-defining event only being told in hushed whispers and half-forgotten rumours. I liked the first couple of books, but when it took three novels to get to Istvaan (Isstvan?), I realised they were going to milk this for all it was worth. I carried on anyway, despite Battle for the Abyss (I could have dealt with the story being entirely self-contained, if it weren't for the terrible writing). I eventually gave up halfway through Nemesis; again, a plot that we know isn't going anywhere, and why did we get the special Mary Sue Eversor who was totally in control of his mind, and could hold a rational conversation with the others? I like the idea of Vanus temple, though; social networking Assassins. Excellent idea for Dark heresy or something.

I decided at that point that if I'm only reading these things for the information, I'd be better off letting some other poor fanboy do it and I'll read the summary on Lexicanum; I'll stick to reading sci-fi novels that are good, not just any old rubbish with a logo. That's why I'm not bothered by the assorted limited editions, audio dramas, etc. I'm not obsessively trying to get every last scrap of information.

I'm not as much of a fan of Dan Abnett as some others; Horus Rising is pretty good, although the amount of character establishment and worldbuilding required means it's a long way short of the quality of any of the Eisenhorn novels for example, but I found Legion tiresome. As did Forge World, it seems; no mention of Omegon in their books yet.

Mind you, I started GW gaming with 1st edition Space Marine in 1990. That was set during the Heresy, so I already had a pretty clear image of how it was "supposed" to look, and then Black Library came along and covered the whole thing with a thick coat of "gothic", which I didn't like. The Primarchs were blown up into monstrous caricatures, the armour was distorted into something medieval, and even the terminology changed; computers and cyborgs became cogitators and servitors, and even Space Marine power armour became Astartes battle plate. Partly that's because at the time of that 1st edition Epic, even 40k didn't use so much "gothic" terminology, but to me, I liked the difference in style between the optimism of the Great Crusade and the debased "present".

I'm a little apprehensive about the ending, too; Bill King's stories about the Emperor confronting Horus, and of the Siege of Terra in general, are excellent and don't really need replacing.

Forge World's year old HH line is much better, leaves stuff vague, has better pacing.


Honestly the only HH books I enjoyed were Betrayer and First Heretic.


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Also the HH was 7 years long in the fluff.