Is there a general dislike of the HH novels?

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**VictorVonTzeentch**

jorny wrote:There is a simple rule to predict how good a HH book is. If it is written by Dan Abnett and contains as little space marines as possible it is probably one of the better.

I beg to differ, Prospero Burns was the worst of the ones I've read so far (That includes Decent of Angels) for me and Abnett wrote that. While it had some interesting insights into the Wolves (though not many as only a couple things are ever out right mentioned), I found the main character to be incredibly tiresome, I literally could not care less about him. I also didn't like that at first it seemed like the Fenrisian Tribesman was introduced to be a POV character only for him to vanish for two thirds of the book as if he was completely forgotten. It had some moments to it, but ultimately garbage.

Legion was hardly any better.

**Veteran Sergeant**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
It's the padding and the fact that they seem hell bent in putting out more and more limited edition and event only things rather than just getting on with the story they started telling.

It's why I live in perpetual fear that the FW HH series is going to head down the same path, releasing very expensive books to cover minor boarding actions rather than big events like Prospero and the Siege of Terra.

Pretty much this.

Though I'll add that a lot of the novels are just... subpar. So it's not just that they are padding and fluff, it's that they're pretty mediocre at the same time. Even the better authors of the series are putting out duds (Unremembered Empire, Betrayer) at this point, and the lower tier authors are just putting out garbage (Vengeful Spirit, Vulkan Lives).

Honestly, in a novel series of around 30 books, there are about seven or eight that are worth reading. It's not a very good ratio, lol.

**Jehan-reznor**

First heretic is one of my favorites, as are the first few books in the series, The fall of the thousands sons is also interesting, Liked Fulgrim also, i wish they focused more on the other chapters not much known on the reason of some chapters why they sided with Horus. Like the whole spy aspect of the Alpha legion don't like the idea of the cabal, which should have a big influence in the whole heresy but are only sprinkled in there for some plot twists.

**ChazSexington**

I know there's a few people who dislike the Alpha Legion fluff, where they've gone from prideful SMs who wage war against the IoM out of spite and bitterness to being Scooby Doo-marines.

**Veteran Sergeant**

ChazSexington wrote:
I know there's a few people who dislike the Alpha Legion fluff, where they've gone from prideful SMs who wage war against the IoM out of spite and bitterness to being Scooby Doo-marines.

Let's see just who you really are mister!

**AndrewGPaul**

VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
jorny wrote:There is a simple rule to predict how good a HH book is. If it is written by Dan Abnett and contains as little space marines as possible it is probably one of the better.

I beg to differ, Prospero Burns was the worst of the ones I've read so far (That includes Decent of Angels) for me and Abnett wrote that. While it had some interesting insights into the Wolves (though not many as only a couple things are ever out right mentioned), I found the main character to be incredibly tiresome, I literally could not care less about him. I also didn't like that at first it seemed like the Fenrisian Tribesman was introduced to be a POV character only for him to vanish for two thirds of the book as if he was completely forgotten. It had some moments to it, but ultimately garbage.

Legion was hardly any better.

Dan Abnett's novels are usually well-written. However, he's quite prone to going his own way when it comes to elements of the setting (as evidenced by the Gaunt's Ghosts and Ravenor series). I thought that worked with those books when he was the only author telling stories in those areas, but it's a bit odd in a shared setting like the Heresy; various authorts' ideas may not get followed up by other authors.

**Manchu**

Pilau Rice wrote:
The best Heresy stuff is Blighs or anything which was written pre - Horus Rising

Very true! Makes me wish (1) FW books were more affordable and (2) BL would reprint or even PoD Index Astartes.

**Nicky J**

VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
jorny wrote:There is a simple rule to predict how good a HH book is. If it is written by Dan Abnett and contains as little space marines as possible it is probably one of the better.

I beg to differ, Prospero Burns was the worst of the ones I've read so far (That includes Decent of Angels) for me and Abnett wrote that. While it had some interesting insights into the Wolves (though not many as only a couple things are ever out right mentioned), I found the main character to be incredibly tiresome, I literally could not care less about him. I also didn't like that at first it seemed like the Fenrisian Tribesman was introduced to be a POV character only for him to vanish for two thirds of the book as if he was completely forgotten. It had some moments to it, but ultimately garbage.

Legion was hardly any better.

my main problem with Prospero Burns, was that despite the title, only a couple of chapters at the end actually have anything to do with Prospero lol

**changemod**

Grimtuff wrote:
Azreal13 wrote:
Not an impression I've got as a majority view. Certainly some people find the exposure of what had always been something of a half-true, mythical part of the 40K universe distasteful.

This.

I hate the fact they've pulled back far too much of the curtain.

I have the opposite issue. I wouldn't have minded them pulling back the curtain at all... But what they've done instead is write up the legends of that time as if they're historical fact.

Presented with the question "What really happened back then, before the ten thousand years of religious dogma warped it beyond recognition?" The answer they went with is "Nope, pretty much accurate."

**Harriticus**

The series has dragged on far, far too long. It should have been 6-7 books tops, now we have just an endless stream of anthologies and audio dramas with no end in sight.

**kronk**

Jpogfreak886 wrote:
Hey Dakka!

I had this question sort of browsing 30k and HH related threads - Is there a general dislike of Black Library's Horus Heresy Series and what it has done to the fluff?

Every so often, when people talk about fluff, someone brings up "the mess the series has made of the 30k history", but I'm not quite sure what that means? Granted, I've only been around since 5th ed started, and I gather there was a lot more fluff around the RT days, but I always found the HH series to be an amazing exploration of a time that was only really referenced and shrouded in mystery .

Has the HH series messed with the pre-heresy fluff or whatever continuity was previously established? And are people taking this as the new 30k history, or as something contradictory to what is already established?

Cheers,
Jpog

I enjoy the HH books. I've read all of them through The Vengeful Spirit. A few of them aren't wonderful (both of the Dark Angels books, Legion, and the assassins one). But several of them are excellent: The First Heretic, the first 3 books, Fulgrim. I've been very entertained with the series and can't wait for the next book.

I think the people in this thread have keyed on the real reason people are getting frustrated. Slow to advance the plot, Hard Cover books (with Hard Cover Prices), and stupid LE books. I agree with these sentiments and wait impatiently for each soft cover book.

Most of the people spouting out "the mess the series has made of the 30k history" are nutters that have had their special snow flake legion(s) tarnished in some insignificant way. It's not so much that they are retconning the old fluff as they are cleaning it out. This universe started with a bunch of 1980s tokers with history degrees and C grades in Latin that wanted their own miniatures and world. "Huh, huh. We'll name the Legion Iron Hands. Hey, their leader should be Ferrus Manus!" "Huh, good one! Pass me another beer!" People complaining are wearing rose tinted glasses that are 2" thick. Honestly, do people want the HH to be anything like Rick Priestley's Rogue Trader? Do we really want:

Obiwan Sherlock Clousseau

http://www.warseer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=114733&d=1311320394

**Veteran Sergeant**

Eh, at least the old fluff is bad in a fun way.

A lot of the new stuff is just bad in a bad way.

**Melissia**

30k bores me in general. It's best left as a mythical setup for the more interesting 40k.

**Ashiraya**

Melissia wrote:
30k bores me in general. It's best left as a mythical setup for the more interesting 40k.

Does it have anything to do with the reduced role of the Imperial Guard (then Army), absence of SoB, much greater role of Astartes and much lower in-universe winrate for the Orks? C:

I love 30k!

**Scrabb**

Ashiraya wrote:
Does it have anything to do with the reduced role of the Imperial Guard (then Army), absence of SoB, much greater role of Astartes and much lower in-universe winrate for the Orks? C: .....

Let it be.

**BrianDavion**

Ashiraya wrote:
Melissia wrote:
30k bores me in general. It's best left as a mythical setup for the more interesting 40k.

Does it have anything to do with the reduced role of the Imperial Guard (then Army), absence of SoB, much greater role of Astartes and much lower in-universe winrate for the Orks? C:

I love 30k!

I suppose if you don't care much for space marine fiction the HH series WOULD be kinda dull

**jakejackjake**

Azreal13 wrote:
Not an impression I've got as a majority view. Certainly some people find the exposure of what had always been something of a half-true, mythical part of the 40K universe distasteful.

As a vet of 2nd Ed as a player (and RT as a fan) I find the stories of what happened generally more interesting, personally.

What is far more common is criticism of the patchy writing quality and the way that BL has eased up on pushing the core narrative forward (I don't think Horus has got closer to Terra in about 3 years now) and started publishing fundamentally irrelevant stories which don't actually add anything to the story of the Heresy and simply take place against the backdrop of it, and the fractured way those stories are told (e books, LE Novellas, audio books, LE Audio Novellas etc.)

Then you take the dissatisfaction the switch from MMPB to Hardback generated (myself included) and you have a lot of jaded people where once there were many enthusiastic fans.

For me, the switch to HB and my desire to keep all my books in the same format was what did it for me. I had initially been mad keen on the whole series, had the signed versions of the first couple of Novellas etc etc. Equally, I was essentially reading exclusively BL books, I was exploring other titles in between HH releases. The long gap between titles after the switch meant I sought out other books and writers, and now I only buy the core HH books when they release in MMPB and nothing else to speak of.

To be fair the biggest problem with the stories that haven't driven the narrative forward is they haven't been good. Besides False Gods everything that ADB, Abnett, and McNeil have written have been really good. Well Unremembered Empire was so so

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ashiraya wrote:
Melissia wrote:
30k bores me in general. It's best left as a mythical setup for the more interesting 40k.

Does it have anything to do with the reduced role of the Imperial Guard (then Army), absence of SoB, much greater role of Astartes and much lower in-universe winrate for the Orks? C:

I love 30k!

The amount of Astartes they brought to fights back then would give anyone a low winrate

I find the HH the most interesting part of the story, and it's still happening just without Horus. Quite a few Primarch Daemon princes exist though. I'd like to see them kill someone in 40k besides one shitt Angron story

**Melissia**

BrianDavion wrote:
I suppose if you don't care much for space marine fiction the HH series WOULD be kinda dull

Some of it's okay. I liked the Prospero Burns and A Thousand Sons pairing for the way it demonstrated the same battle from different perspectives, for example.

Most of it's boring tripe though. Even compared to most 40k fiction.

**jakejackjake**

VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
jorny wrote:There is a simple rule to predict how good a HH book is. If it is written by Dan Abnett and contains as little space marines as possible it is probably one of the better.

I beg to differ, Prospero Burns was the worst of the ones I've read so far (That includes Decent of Angels) for me and Abnett wrote that. While it had some interesting insights into the Wolves (though not many as only a couple things are ever out right mentioned), I found the main character to be incredibly tiresome, I literally could not care less about him. I also didn't like that at first it seemed like the Fenrisian Tribesman was introduced to be a POV character only for him to vanish for two thirds of the book as if he was completely forgotten. It had some moments to it, but ultimately garbage.

Legion was hardly any better.

DoA was way worse. Prospero wasn't awesome but light years ahead of anything by Gav, James, or Chris. You're right though Abnett's Unremembered Empire, and Prospero Burns could be skipped. You won't miss anything and they aren't great. Unfortunately Legion is kind of important

The ADB stuff and some of McNeill's like Angel Exterminatus are some of the best 40k books written and I've read a vast majority of 40k fiction. I just ignore everything by Guy, James, Gav, Chris, Ben, and all other Black Library writes now because their tone, pace, and general writing is just always not up to par.

**Veteran Sergeant**

If you skip Unremembered Novel, suddenly Legion isn't important anymore, lol.

That whole Cabal storyline is awful. The transformation of my favorite Chaos Legion from hubristic, arrogant jerkbags to gullible Scooby Doo Marines has been perhaps the most disappointing part of the series. The Alpha Legion are a complete joke now, and their appearances in the novels being limited to a bizarre game of one-upsmanship where the Black Library authors compete to see which one of them can write the worst, least believable Alpha Legion story arc.

**Alpharius**

LEGION gave the Legion a lot of interesting potential which has since been squandered and wasted by every subsequent author's use of them - a real shame.

I guess it is down to Abnett's inability to follow up on the story he started.

**epronovost**

Beside the first three novels, exellent novels even if you are not a 40K/30K fan, and First Heretic, I thought most of the Horus Heresy books to be rather boring (I haven't read Prospero burn, but it seems to have a good reputation). They have few emotionnal grip, have relatively bland characters, ennemies that serves only has sandbags and incredibly incompetent. To me, one of the worst one would be Fulgrim. It's like a Micheal Bay movie. When you read it, it's rather intertaining and fast pace. It's graphic and mves the story a bit foward, but when you start to think about it, you realise it's pretty stupid. Then, when you read it again, you realise how atrocious it truly his. Fulgrim his a moron; Eidolon the worst commander immaginable; the remembrancer are useless; Fabius Bile has almost no role; Lucius was more uninterresting in that book, but great in the others; the meeting and battle against Eldrad and his army was a joke; the Laer were sandbags; the death of Ferrus Manus was kind of boring; the ending was so confused and strange that the author made a new short story just to adress it and finally contradict the most believable (and maybe intersting) explanation for all this.

**BobtheInquisitor**

Alpharius wrote:
LEGION gave the Legion a lot of interesting potential which has since been squandered and wasted by every subsequent author's use of them - a real shame.

I guess it is down to Abnett's inability to follow up on the story he started.

To be fair, his follow ups are usually pretty bad.

**jakejackjake**

Whoops how do ya delete these things

**blazinpsycho&typhooni**

Melissia wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
I suppose if you don't care much for space marine fiction the HH series WOULD be kinda dull
Some of it's okay. I liked the Prospero Burns and A Thousand Sons pairing for the way it demonstrated the same battle from different perspectives, for example.

Most of it's boring tripe though. Even compared to most 40k fiction.

I have to agree. I enjoy my 40k fiction, it's a guilty pleasure kind of like really bad junk food. But the 30k stuff... I feel there's a lot of wasted potential here.

I would like to hear your reasoning why it's boring? Just curious.

**Pilau Rice**

I was in GW on Saturday, picked up Damnation of Pythos, I had it in my hands, then put it back on the shelf.

I've never questioned buying a book in the series before.

**BrianDavion**

Pilau Rice wrote:
I was in GW on Saturday, picked up Damnation of Pythos, I had it in my hands, then put it back on the shelf.

I've never questioned buying a book in the series before.

yeah that book just doesn't draw me...

**Metaljunx**

Problem with Horus heresy series is that every 40k player know what will happen in the ending

**Pilau Rice**

Metaljunx wrote:
Problem with Horus heresy series is that every 40k player know what will happen in the ending

But that's not why we are buying them though. I think we are our own worst enemies really. Myself, I want to find out about what happened from Horus fall up to the Siege of the Palace. The problem is I am starting to wish that they hadn't and that they had kept it as a legend lost to time. The illusion of the scale and how such a terrible time it must have been has been shattered.

**Venerate1**

The same format was followed in the 80s with the Dragonlance/Forgotten Realms books; a couple of trilogies that spawned dozens and dozens of spin-offs adding nothing to the overall narrative. I really don't care about that one time Corax scratched his ar$e, or the battle when faceless marine X shot faceless captain Y.

However Black Library seem to have fallen into the true GW way of doing things; quick, money grabbing LE content designed to make a quick buck. I now just read the blurbs up front and if the novel hasn't advanced the timline (or worse, gone BACK to something covered 8 books ago), then it just straight back on the shelf.