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 Paradigm wrote:
Ah, Tag and Bink. There's a piece of the EU I want as a film!

(I'm only half joking, I would genuinely watch it!)

I'm glad someone got it!

 d-usa wrote:
Now this may be an interesting turn of phrase. We have had a few mentions that the line was from the old movie, but Mark could be teasing a little bit here:

Hamill was "cleared" to tell the packed house that he did record a voiceover specifically for the new teaser trailer, which debuted on Thursday during the Celebration kick-off panel.

In the teaser, we hear Luke's voice saying a familiar, but slightly altered line from "Return of the Jedi": "The force is strong in my family. My father has it. I have it. My sister has it. You have that power too."

He laughed and said that he kept messing up and saying: "My father had it."

https://www.yahoo.com/movies/news/mark-hamill-said-suspicious-j-j-abrams-035442948.html

I saw this article last night right before I left work and I had planned on posting it when I got home but I got distracted.

Definitely an interesting bit of trivia...

 Sturmtruppen wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Sturmtruppen wrote:
On Tatooine, not Jakku.

Yeah, although they certainly weren't making any attempts to say the planet is somewhere else with the trailer. You see a desert planet in a Star Wars movie you're going to assume its Tatooine.

Actually, I may have to eat my words. Similarly, I believed the desert planet shown in the Battlefront trailer was Tatooine, but see the image below:

Spoiler:

Notice the crashing Star Destroyer to the right? This may be Jakku. So if the Sandcrawler is anything to go by, there may be Jawas on Jakku after all.

And Boba Fett is still alive!

It should be Jakku. Part of the benefits of preordering the game is that you get to play on the Jakku map before the unwashed masses do. It's supposed to be take place just before the movie, IIRC.
Also, at least in the EU, sand crawlers were not a Jawa invention, but simply reused/recycled by them after they were left behind by others.

It makes sense that a tracked vehicle like a Sand Crawler could be useful on any desert planet.

There could be jawas on more than one planet though, nothing says they are only on tatooine, AFAIK.

Also, I like the add

 Hordini wrote:
It makes sense that a tracked vehicle like a Sand Crawler could be useful on any desert planet.

It makes sense that a Sand Crawler would be on more than one planet.... IIRC, in a couple of the EU writings, they talk about the "original" owners of the Crawlers were actually a galactic mining company that, when the mines of Tatooine dried up, it was cheaper for them to ditch the equipment than to relocate it to another planet.

I am very much liking the sith lightsaber. Very home made vibe going on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 Hordini wrote:
It makes sense that a tracked vehicle like a Sand Crawler could be useful on any desert planet.

It makes sense that a Sand Crawler would be on more than one planet.... IIRC, in a couple of the EU writings, they talk about the "original" owners of the Crawlers were actually a galactic mining company that, when the mines of Tatooine dried up, it was cheaper for them to ditch the equipment than to relocate it to another planet.

Might be Czerka. They were trying to mine Tatooine in Knights of the Old Republic and used vehicles quite similar to the sandcrawlers seen in the original.

Yeah there is a strong possibility Kyle Ren is a Seth wannabe, in which case that lightsaber really suits him.

 Manchu wrote:
Yeah there is a strong possibility Kyle Ren is a Seth wannabe, in which case that lightsaber really suits him.

I was doing some thinking about it and came to the conclusion that Sith don't really need instruction, at least nowhere near as much as a Jedi does.

Since they draw their power from emotion, a force adept could unknowingly draw upon the dark side of the force and gain its benefits. They may not know how they are doing it but it would be possible. They just learn that if they channel their fear or anger or hatred, then it makes them stronger and gives them abilities beyond a normal man, without needing to fully understand why or how.

Compare that to a Jedi, who draws power from being in balance, without emotion. Much harder to do as you're very unlikely to be in that state without trying to be, hence the need for more instruction and training in order to be able to use the force via the light side.

Fits with the lore, too, where the dark side is typically a faster route to power and so very seductive.

A fully trained Sith has much more command over the Dark Side (and vice versa) then someone just tapping into it. The Sith also have a code as well. Still, both are pretty dangerous.

I think you both make very strong points. As Yoda said, the dark side is a relatively quick and easy path to power. But there is a big difference between being Sith and being a frustrated, impatient, wrathful Force-sensitive being. My guess is Kylo Rene fits more into the latter category and is trying to play for political power in a splintered Empire by claiming to be the heir to the Sith.

 Manchu wrote:
I think you both make very strong points. As Yoda said, the dark side is a relatively quick and easy path to power. But there is a big difference between being Sith and being a frustrated, impatient, wrathful Force-sensitive being. My guess is Kylo Rene fits more into the latter category and is trying to play for political power in a splintered Empire by claiming to be the heir to the Sith.

Maybe a more sane version of C'baoth?

Sane being a relative term.

Thing is, Kylo Ren seems to be a name rather than a title. But he also wears a mask. A good writer doesn't put any main character in a mask unless their true identity is an important point.

I don't know. On at least two occasions I know of, Doctor Who had masked baddies and the only reason they wore masks was because they were feth ugly.

But I'm talking about good writing.

We've seen that the Sith have full on training academies at various points throughout the EU, and even when few Sith remain, their training system seems, perhaps even more intimate than the Jedi. A single master, a single apprentice, even if that apprentice is a master of the force in his own right, like Darth Vader.

I believe that when Yoda says the Dark Side is an easier access to more power, he's talking about several factors and in several different ways.

Please consider the following thoughts.

1. As mentioned force users emotions play a great deal in their use of the force. Consider our own emotions, when you're angry, you tend to select more forceful options, more quickly, and can likely be more effective when applying those violent options.

2. Wrath/Anger/Hate are the main focus we think of for Sith emotions, but Yoda applies hot headed behavior, impulsiveness as well. Being quick to anger and to courses of action can be very quickly successful in many situations, be it personal relationships or a military campaign, but it will also likely undermine or do damage to those same situations, by forcing a result without laying the foundation for that result. Ergo capturing large amounts of Russia without supplying your troops with winter combat gear and establishing supply solutions for an Army operating that far over land.

3. Consider professional martial artists and fighters, the Jedi are very closely modeled after these individuals in many regards, especially the Japanese Samurai, and you can find some Zen influences in much of Jedi teaching. The Jedi spend decades honing themselves into a master. The Sith, even fully trained, are more of a brawler in the street. Crude, brutal and effective. The former's resolve and fighting spirit comes from a calm steely discipline, and will not drain nearly as quickly as the latter's anger, and the former will not be nearly as incapacitated when the tank runs out.

That is not to say martial artists or Jedi can't get angry, or even use anger to their advantage. It's when you let your anger control and dominate your actions that it becomes a threat to individual in question.

 Manchu wrote:
Sane being a relative term.

Thing is, Kylo Ren seems to be a name rather than a title. But he also wears a mask. A good writer doesn't put any main character in a mask unless their true identity is an important point.

The mask creates a lot of possibilities. Most have assumed that it's Adam Driver behind the mask, but what if it's Domhnall Gleeson (and he is who most assume he is)? What if it's Hamill?

Then again, his identity may be hidden because it's a misdirection in the film. We may at first be led to believe that it's Luke under the mask, before he's revealed to be Driver. And even then, what if Driver's surname isn't Ren but something more familiar?

I wouldn't describe Palpatine as crude or a street brawler. He seems to be incredibly patient and cunning. He was driven by hatred that he mastered and channeled into decades of covert manipulation. Vader, by contrast, is shown from ANH on as at a constant simmer which often boils over: Remember how he screams questions at that Rebel officer at the beginning while breaking his neck? Pretty counter-productive. But then again, Vader may never have received formal Sith training.

Well, Vader's psyke does seem a big strained. Probably comes from thinking you killed the one person you loved.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Well, Vader's psyke does seem a big strained. Probably comes from thinking you killed the one person you loved.

Pffft. Don't bring that silliness into my original trilogy! Especially considering that from Empire onwards he knows that he didn't kill Padme as she must have survived to give birth to Luke and Leia.

I'd say that the number of times that Vader seems to act purely out of losing control of his emotions is very small. Rather the times that he does strike at others (such as his rampage through the upper command of the Imperial fleet in Empire ) is more of a calculated message to others that he will not tolerate failure.

Each person he kills increases his infamy among their subordinates, increasing their fear of him and allows him basically complete authority over the whole fleet, no questions asked.

In fact, I'm struggling to think of a time when Vader shouted which wasn't that bit at the beginning of a new hope where he tells the men to tear the ship apart to find the plans.

EDIT: Oh, thought of one. Leia on the blockade runner. Apart from that I still can't think of anything.

I don't think Vader ever loses control of his emotions in the OT. Rather, he unleashes them. He uses his anger. He is definitely the Emperor's pupil.

You make a good point about getting rid of Ozzel. In that scene, Ozzel was already sassing Vader. Killing him and brevet promoting Piett does seem like a calculated power move. But there are other instances where Vader seems to lash out for its own sake: Captain Needa in no way challenged Vader's authority. By taking a shuttle to the Executor to personally apologize, Needa was probably trying to overtly demonstrate his subservience to Vader's command. Here is a man who understood Ozzel's mistake and was trying to avoid his fate. But Vader just murders him all the same, and with a sarcastic quip (echoing his assault on Motti in ANH). These scenes set up a contrast that gives Vader depth as a villain. He sometimes uses shocking violence in a coldly calculating manner. Other times, he seems purely sadistic.

Interesting conversation.

See, I always thought that the greatest flaw of the prequel trilogy was its failing to make Anakin's fall sensical and believable. So he's a generally good kid with some emotional control issues...fine. His actions against the Sandpeople -- while terrible -- generally make sense in that context. But then what about his actions in the Jedi temple in ROTS? That was calculated, efficient murdering done out of breathtaking selfishness. Perhaps his execution of Dooku shows a step toward the sadistic or psychopathic, and his actions against Windu show his increasing selfishness too. But IMO there's still about 14 missing steps between there and slaying rooms full of younglings.

So maybe the answer here is that Vader's character has actually been all over the place from the beginning (of the film series). And perhaps his issues went much deeper than emotional control -- he may have had the psychopathic gene in him, just waiting to be flipped. Although then I think you're creating questions about the possibility of his "redemption" at the end of ROTJ.

A lot depends on how you interpret the scene at the end of RotJ with the Force "ghosts" where Anakin is present. Are they in Jedi heaven? If so, does that mean all the terrible things Vader did (like torturing Leia twice FFS) are washed away because he sacrificed himself to save his son? Vader himself tells Luke he has saved him. From what? Jedi hell? When I was a kid, this is how I looked at all of that -- yay Anakin went to heaven.

When Lucas photoshopped Hayden Christiansen over Sebastian Shaw for the Super Special Edition release, I found myself rethinking this. This replacement really bothered me and not just because Christiansen is awful. The issue is, we are seeing the Force ghosts from Luke's perspective. We see Obi-Wan and Yoda as Luke knew them. Lucas didn't photoshop Ewan McGregor over Alec Guiness after all. Significantly (as a matter of the freaking script even), father and son have only seen each other face-to-face in one moment, in which Anakin is portrayed by Shaw.

If they are in Jedi heaven, then I guess Anakin can look like whoever and Luke just recognizes him because ... reasons. But it really doesn't make sense to me, as an adult at least, that becoming a Force ghost is the same thing has being in Jedi heaven. Look at it this way: Suppose Vader had survived his assassination of the Emperor. Saving Luke would not clear his name of all the atrocities he had committed over the years. Imagine a conversation between him and Leia. Yikes. I would guess that, maybe he could have survived but he definitely did not want to. He knew he could not undo all the evil he had wrought. All that was left for him was a quiet moment with his son, who somehow loved him despite everything.

"You were right about me, tell your sister, you were right."

Vader does not redeem himself, through his own sacrifice. That is simply too little, too late. He is redeemed by his son's unconditional love for him. And redemption here does not mean, okay all is forgiven. It means Vader got something he absolutely did not deserve: a moment of peace.

I think that there are certain books, whether people like them or not, bring certain aspects of the Dark Side out in such a way that simply make sense.

For instance, if you follow Darth Bane's logic, having only 2 Sith at any given time makes perfect sense. If you view the Force as a sort of living being, it makes sense that the side that sees ambition and power-seeking actions to be a good thing would manifest itself in greater power in a smaller number of beings, as opposed to the "other side" which values teamwork, harmony and "The Greater Good" (did I just violate Tau copyright?)

IMO, using this logic, is why Obi Wan was entirely correct when he says Anakin was to bring balance to the force; there weren't enough Sith at the time, and Sidious needed a new apprentice to keep the balance.


As to Palpatine/Sidious being patient, I actually like the book "Darth Plagueis" because, IMO it illustrates in some minor detail how a being fueled by the Dark Side would be forced to operate in two spheres of influence and keep both identities separated from each other (until the time is right, of course)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 gorgon wrote:
Interesting conversation.

See, I always thought that the greatest flaw of the prequel trilogy was its failing to make Anakin's fall sensical and believable. So he's a generally good kid with some emotional control issues...fine. His actions against the Sandpeople -- while terrible -- generally make sense in that context. But then what about his actions in the Jedi temple in ROTS? That was calculated, efficient murdering done out of breathtaking selfishness. Perhaps his execution of Dooku shows a step toward the sadistic or psychopathic, and his actions against Windu show his increasing selfishness too. But IMO there's still about 14 missing steps between there and slaying rooms full of younglings.

So maybe the answer here is that Vader's character has actually been all over the place from the beginning (of the film series). And perhaps his issues went much deeper than emotional control -- he may have had the psychopathic gene in him, just waiting to be flipped. Although then I think you're creating questions about the possibility of his "redemption" at the end of ROTJ.

I agree with you in that there seems to be a rather large leap from "angst-ridden teenager who is force sensitive" to "Darth Vader". But, IMHO, that may be something that would be better served in the other media available, like the books and EU. This is especially true if we're to assume that the Clone wars were a lengthy 10-15 year conflict or something to allow time for there to be some kind of war weariness or something that has worn on him over the years, and not just Palpatine/Sidious whispering sweet nothings into his ear periodically.

 gorgon wrote:
Then again, his identity may be hidden because it's a misdirection in the film. We may at first be led to believe that it's Luke under the mask, before he's revealed to be Driver. And even then, what if Driver's surname isn't Ren but something more familiar?

It would be a fairly awesome completing-the-circle sort of twist if the evil villain of the movie turned out to be Luke's son...

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
...Especially considering that from Empire onwards he knows that he didn't kill Padme as she must have survived to give birth to Luke and Leia..

Well, no, all he knows from that point is that the baby survived. Given how close she was (remember, she gave birth almost immediately after leaving Mustafa) it's entirely possible that he just assumed that the baby had been saved despite her death, since he had no reason to doubt Palpatine's word about that.

What about the possibility that Kylo Ren is a non-Sith Dark Jedi? Or some other type of non-Sith darkside force user?

Well, we have been discussing the idea that he is just a Sith wannabe.

 Manchu wrote:
Well, we have been discussing the idea that he is just a Sith wannabe.

Would you consider non-Sith Dark Jedi to be Sith wannabes, or their own thing? (I realize I might be splitting hairs here).

 Hordini wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Well, we have been discussing the idea that he is just a Sith wannabe.

Would you consider non-Sith Dark Jedi to be Sith wannabes, or their own thing? (I realize I might be splitting hairs here).

Isn't the "canon" definition of a Dark Jedi a person/being who once was in the Jedi Temple and later fell off their "vows" and duties toward the darkside?

Also, I suppose there could be some merit to a person being a Sith wannabe, as well as not being a Dark Jedi, if we have something that says that the Sith must a) be a DS user of the force and b) have been trained by a Sith; and this being has not met the second requirement. But then, we could also get into the grey area of what constitutes "training" by the Sith, and, to a Jedi (such as Luke at this point) what does a Sith look like? Is there any real difference to Luke or the Jedi in the appearance, manner, and aims of a Sith or a "Sith" ??

Not to mention that just because he was not trained by Palpatine doesn't mean he wasn't trained by a Sith if you would include "self-taught from a textbook" under the banner of being trained by a Sith. I have no doubt there's still gonna be some Holocrons scattered throughout the galaxy, hidden away...

Well remember that in the original trilogy, the word "Sith" isn't even used, and only Darth Vader has the title of "Darth". Until the prequels, the word Sith only appeared on a trading card referring to Darth Vader as "The Dark Lord of the Sith". Due to the lack of context on the meaning behind this, Timothy Zahn originally planned to have the Noghri be called the Sith. It wasn't until the prequel trilogy that Sith and Darth were used as the dark-side equivalent of Jedi - which means either Kylo Ren ain't a Sith because he ain't a Darth, or Disney are so determined to break connections with the prequels that they've ditched the whole concept of Sith and Darth as titles.