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Note: Edited title for clarity.

If you haven't seen the new Eldar codex, go check the rumors thread. I can wait.

Now that your eyes have returned to their sockets and your jaw is off the floor, I can concretely state that the new Eldar codex will break 7th edition 40k. Ranged D, Scatbikes, the list goes on.
However, this is actually bad news for us Eldar players. Anyone seen in possession of this book will instantly be referred to as TFG without so much as setting a model on the tabletop. Our opponents will carefully scrutinize our army lists to find an excuse to refuse to play us. In short, this book has ruined whatever little reputation the Eldar had left.

But all is not lost! We will simply have to take the path of 5th edition Grey Knights: intentionally handicap and gimp our lists so that people will actually want to play against us. Note that this is only in the context of casual/friendly games. If you're planning on winning tournaments, cheese your way to victory! Yours is the easiest path of them all!

With that in mind, we should first look at the various general playstyles and how they will be affected.

Saim-Hann: Scatriders are now one of the most unbalanced units in all of 40k. Shuriken are even worse if taken in the Warhost. Only model one cannon per three jetbikes if you intend to get games.
Iyanden: Even more screwed. Even if the ITC doesn't rule it out, expect plenty of "No ranged D" house rules. If you can, play using the 6th edition Distort rules. Your opponent will thank you.
Biel-Tan: Actually in a good position. The Aspect Host is quite reasonable and flexible, depending on what units you like to use.
Ulthwe: Also not too bad. Guardians aren't a tax, and the Seer council is excellent. Dominate the psychic phase like you're playing Daemons.
Serpent Spam: Now no longer viable due to Serpent shield nerf. Not like you didn't deserve it for 6th edition

There are definitely some units and formations we should avoid:

Wraithknights: Unbelievably undercosted. If you insist, only take as a Lord of War in a CAD.
Jetbikes: Whole threads are dedicated to their ridiculousness. Like I said, only take one cannon for every three bikes if you want to run them.
Wraithguard: More ranged D madness. Fortunately, Fire Dragons fulfill much the same role, but with melta.
D-Cannons: Ranged D in artillery form. Opt for Shadow Weaver/Vibro Cannon instead.
Dire Avenger Shrine: Assault 3 Bladestorm at BS5 and BS2 overwatch is too much. The Aspect Host is much more reasonable.

If you close your eyes and pretend the unbalanced units simply aren't options, we have a variety of tools to compete with in a more sportsmanlike fashion. I personally view this as a challenge to prove that a good player can win without using ludicrously written rules.

I welcome any feedback from both Eldar veterans and non-Eldar players as to how to play Eldar with the new codex in a balanced, reasonable way.

Missed the Hemlock on the first pass. Fixing that.
Hemlock Wraithfighter: A smaller. psychic version of the Vampire Hunter. Like the Vampire Hunter, use only in Apocalypse games against people you hate.

Links:
Thread Title and Disclaimer: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/90/645031.page#7768700
Goatboy article: http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2015/04/goatboy-hello-metagame-shift-eldar-edition.html
NOVA Open update: http://whiskey40k.blogspot.com/2015/04/dealing-with-el-d-ar-pre-codex-thoughts.html

Your trying to start a tactics thread bases on almost no information. Why not wait til you have actual screenshots from early books etc, rather than just the WD.

In the rumor thread we have significant info from a source that has posted pictures of the book, and has accurately spoiled Khorne Daemonkin in the past -- they're highly likely to be reliable. These are NOT WD rumors.

i think your approach is quite reasonable, but honestly, nobody should support this book. If you must have it in hand I'd suggest pooling funds and purchasing one for the club/store. Crap like this needs to be refused by responsible consumers or it won't stop. Even with a FAQ/Errata there is no way I am buying it, redo your work GW

 Red Corsair wrote:

Spoiler:

 TheNewBlood wrote:
If you haven't seen the new Eldar codex, go check the rumors thread. I can wait.

Now that your eyes have returned to their sockets and your jaw is off the floor, I can concretely state that the new Eldar codex will break 7th edition 40k. Ranged D, Scatbikes, the list goes on.
However, this is actually bad news for us Eldar players. Anyone seen in possession of this book will instantly be referred to as TFG without so much as setting a model on the tabletop. Our opponents will carefully scrutinize our army lists to find an excuse to refuse to play us. In short, this book has ruined whatever little reputation the Eldar had left.

But all is not lost! We will simply have to take the path of 5th edition Grey Knights: intentionally handicap and gimp our lists so that people will actually want to play against us. Note that this is only in the context of casual/friendly games. If you're planning on winning tournaments, cheese your way to victory! Yours is the easiest path of them all!

With that in mind, we should first look at the various general playstyles and how they will be affected.

Saim-Hann: Scatriders are now one of the most unbalanced units in all of 40k. Shuriken are even worse if taken in the Warhost. Only model one cannon per three jetbikes if you intend to get games.
Iyanden: Even more screwed. Even if the ITC doesn't rule it out, expect plenty of "No ranged D" house rules. If you can, play using the 6th edition Distort rules. Your opponent will thank you.
Biel-Tan: Actually in a good position. The Aspect Host is quite reasonable and flexible, depending on what units you like to use.
Ulthwe: Also not too bad. Guardians aren't a tax, and the Seer council is excellent. Dominate the psychic phase like you're playing Daemons.
Serpent Spam: Now no longer viable due to Serpent shield nerf. Not like you didn't deserve it for 6th edition

There are definitely some units and formations we should avoid:

Wraithknights: Unbelievably undercosted. If you insist, only take as a Lord of War in a CAD.
Jetbikes: Whole threads are dedicated to their ridiculousness. Like I said, only take one cannon for every three bikes if you want to run them.
Wraithguard: More ranged D madness. Fortunately, Fire Dragons fulfill much the same role, but with melta.
D-Cannons: Ranged D in artillery form. Opt for Shadow Weaver/Vibro Cannon instead.
Dire Avenger Shrine: Assault 3 Bladestorm at BS5 and BS2 overwatch is too much. The Aspect Host is much more reasonable.

If you close your eyes and pretend the unbalanced units simply aren't options, we have a variety of tools to compete with in a more sportsmanlike fashion. I personally view this as a challenge to prove that a good player can win without using ludicrously written rules.

I welcome any feedback from both Eldar veterans and non-Eldar players as to how to play Eldar with the new codex in a balanced, reasonable way.

i think your approach is quite reasonable, but honestly, nobody should support this book. If you must have it in hand I'd suggest pooling funds and purchasing one for the club/store. Crap like this needs to be refused by responsible consumers or it won't stop. Even with a FAQ/Errata there is no way I am buying it, redo your work GW

I was tempted by this idea, but I'm not a very good painter and I figured a guide could help me out. That, and I love the Eldar lore. I also wanted to get the new psychic power cards before they ran out.

I hate this new codex so much, I pre-ordered the limited edition!

The ranged D is rumoured to have a -1 modifier and counts as S4 for ID purposes so it's not as bad as one might think. Heck, theres a 33% chance of it not doing anything.

Bikes look to be strong, if squishy.
Wraithknight makes me sad, but I will adapt. As DE, all my AT goes in another direction now.

 Frozocrone wrote:
The ranged D is rumoured to have a -1 modifier and counts as S4 for ID purposes so it's not as bad as one might think. Heck, theres a 33% chance of it not doing anything.

Bikes look to be strong, if squishy.
Wraithknight makes me sad, but I will adapt. As DE, all my AT goes in another direction now.

That only applies to the flamers. Everything else has full-power D.

Bikes are squishy, sure, but full units of Scatbikers will shoot down your DE transports without needing to jink. The Wraithknight is a lot faster that anyone realizes.

 TheNewBlood wrote:

 Frozocrone wrote:
The ranged D is rumoured to have a -1 modifier and counts as S4 for ID purposes so it's not as bad as one might think. Heck, theres a 33% chance of it not doing anything.

Bikes look to be strong, if squishy.
Wraithknight makes me sad, but I will adapt. As DE, all my AT goes in another direction now.

That only applies to the flamers. Everything else has full-power D.

Bikes are squishy, sure, but full units of Scatbikers will shoot down your DE transports without needing to jink. The Wraithknight is a lot faster that anyone realizes.

Fair comment. But you can still Jink from Destroyer Weapons (aside the 6 but eh)
True about the bikes. That's why I'm thinking about Razorwings. Can't be shot before I use them and Large Blasts to get lots of wounds.
Wraithknight is as fast as it was before, being Jump MC, so no change there. It became more durable though.

Time will tell whether we've got 7th ed Daemons again. I'm being optimistic having no experience against them...yet.

Well another book, another "sky is falling" pre-book, and how GW is terrible, or hates or whatever...

Play the book as it sits, units look good. Combos are no better than whats obtainable in other books.

Big Str 6 guns on the bikes is fine, whats the ap? do they ignore cover....

The nerf to serpents is nice, but decent tourney players dealt with them before.

Honestly, just like the Tau, Daemon, Space marine, bugs, necrons threads. Wait for the book to be in hand before the "OP" or "Broken" conversations...

I'm thinking about using Eldar as allies for my Tau. With Scorpions getting Stealth and Shrouded (until getting in combat or firing at someone), I'm very much tempted to use them as my melee fellas.

Another good unit to use are Jetbikes. They'll do what my FWs can't: capture objectives, dispatch people to kingdom come and let me save markerlights for Crisis/tanks. Probably fielding the Windrider warhost, for the tasty Shred (with Shred, Shuriken Cannons become better than Scatter Lasers in any scenario - except AVs 10/11)

Not interested in Wraithstuff - the moment I'll utter 'D-strenght' they'll get banned.

Tsilber wrote:
Well another book, another "sky is falling" pre-book, and how GW is terrible, or hates or whatever...

Play the book as it sits, units look good. Combos are no better than whats obtainable in other books.

Big Str 6 guns on the bikes is fine, whats the ap? do they ignore cover....

The nerf to serpents is nice, but decent tourney players dealt with them before.

Honestly, just like the Tau, Daemon, Space marine, bugs, necrons threads. Wait for the book to be in hand before the "OP" or "Broken" conversations...

Thank you. Nothing kills my enthusiasm to play or even freaking talk about the game than complaining nonstop. Same thing happened with the Necron book.

Tsilber wrote:
Well another book, another "sky is falling" pre-book, and how GW is terrible, or hates or whatever...

Play the book as it sits, units look good. Combos are no better than whats obtainable in other books.

Big Str 6 guns on the bikes is fine, whats the ap? do they ignore cover....

The nerf to serpents is nice, but decent tourney players dealt with them before.

Honestly, just like the Tau, Daemon, Space marine, bugs, necrons threads. Wait for the book to be in hand before the "OP" or "Broken" conversations...

The problem is that we already have the biggest issues spoilered to us via confirmed, reliable sources.

It's not the AP on the Scatbikers, it's volume of fire. And yes, Eldar can ignore cover via Divination.

If you don't see a problem with massively undercosted ranged D, I don't know what to tell you.

There's a reason Scatbikers and ranged D are on my avoid list in the OP.

This isn't a "the sky is falling OMGWTFLOLGWsux" thread. The sky has fallen for Eldar players, and I'm trying to find a way to pick up the pieces.

 TheNewBlood wrote:

Tsilber wrote:
Well another book, another "sky is falling" pre-book, and how GW is terrible, or hates or whatever...

Play the book as it sits, units look good. Combos are no better than whats obtainable in other books.

Big Str 6 guns on the bikes is fine, whats the ap? do they ignore cover....

The nerf to serpents is nice, but decent tourney players dealt with them before.

Honestly, just like the Tau, Daemon, Space marine, bugs, necrons threads. Wait for the book to be in hand before the "OP" or "Broken" conversations...

The problem is that we already have the biggest issues spoilered to us via confirmed, reliable sources.

It's not the AP on the Scatbikers, it's volume of fire. And yes, Eldar can ignore cover via Divination.

If you don't see a problem with massively undercosted ranged D, I don't know what to tell you.

There's a reason Scatbikers and ranged D are on my avoid list in the OP.

This isn't a "the sky is falling OMGWTFLOLGWsux" thread. The sky has fallen for Eldar players, and I'm trying to find a way to pick up the pieces.

Just play the game. If you don't run spammy cheesy lists you'll be fine. If your opponents are like, "oh you took two squads of Jetbikes, not happening bro," then you will probably be better off finding an opponent who isn't so childish.

I for one can't wait to have troops that will serve a function in my lists. Paying a troop tax in order to get Farseers into my DE lists was irritating when they served no function outside of tactical objective games.

Refusing to play against xyz list is not a option if your a tournament player.

When a person willing to travel far to a tourney, pay the often high entry fee and plus possible hotel stays and etc they definitely will bring the most cutthroat Waac list they could think of.

Not staying jet bike spam armies will win tourneys for sure since it's not a full Tac list. Considering wk is LoW and also a lot tourneys banned range D, eldar still needs to bring other options against av12+ and flyers. In the end I think it's who goes first will determine who wins against eldar bike spam.

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
Refusing to play against xyz list is not a option if your a tournament player.

When a person willing to travel far to a tourney, pay the often high entry fee and plus possible hotel stays and etc they definitely will bring the most cutthroat Waac list they could think of.

Not staying jet bike spam armies will win tourneys for sure since it's not a full Tac list. Considering wk is LoW and also a lot tourneys banned range D, eldar still needs to bring other options against av12+ and flyers. In the end I think it's who goes first will determine who wins against eldar bike spam.

Right, and that applies to the competitive tournament scene. I really do feel for the very competitive players out there; I hope you have accepted your new pointy-eared overlords.

My comments in the OP are aimed at the casual/FLGS/whatever scene, where people can turn down opponents. I'm trying to create ways for Eldar players in these scenes to get games and avoid being stigmatized simply because of how ludicrously overpowered our upcoming codex is.

Jetbikes slaughter the majority of flyers in the game. The primary threat is AV13+, which WWP fire dragons deal with pretty well.


- - - - - -

I think the easiest way to make a "friendly" Eldar list is to just not spam. If you have to spam (like a Saim-Han themed list), then don't max out on the best weapons. I've played a lot of games with Eldar since 7th started and I've avoided most of the dirty looks by having a strong but non-spammy list. One Wave Serpent holding fire dragons, two jet bike squads, jetseer, trolltarch, one warp-spider squad, two war-walker squads and a wraithlord. It's competitive in my meta without being overbearing.

Yeah but you specifically have to play the army with a handicap. As it is you got a possible Aspect Warrior host which can apparently get BS 5 Dark Reapers possibly or at least BS5 Fire Dragons.

You specifically have to handicap yourself if the rumours are true.

Hollismason wrote:
Yeah but you specifically have to play the army with a handicap. As it is you got a possible Aspect Warrior host which can apparently get BS 5 Dark Reapers possibly or at least BS5 Fire Dragons.

You specifically have to handicap yourself if the rumours are true.

This thread is about the sort of handicaps Eldar players will have to use in order to get people to avoid playing them.

Personally, I don't think BS5 Dark Reapers or Fire Dragons are OP, as in order to get them the Eldar player must use a very restrictive formation setup with a decently expensive core. Fire Dragons lack mobility unless given a thankfully toned-down Wave Serpent, and Dark Reapers are lacking in survivability.

It also fits with the fluff; if you personally spent hundreds of years perfecting the use of a single weapon, I would imagine BS5 would be the end result.

Scatbikes aren't that scary. Warwalkers can take a better loadout for fewer points, and both can be tar-pitted in close combat.
We haven't seen this codex in action, by any means. People are afraid, mostly due to hype and because of how Decurion effected the metagame. The sky is not falling.
Have we seen point costs on any of the changed units yet? I haven't seen screen caps on any rumor threads.

You mean the formation and detachment that just includes all the best units with no hidden draw backs.

I think all armies have a built in handicap. Because each codex has one supremely strong unit. Riptide, Centurion, T-wolves, etc. The balance is not overloading on that unit so that the game is fun for both sides.

 Gamerely wrote:
I think all armies have a built in handicap. Because each codex has one supremely strong unit. Riptide, Centurion, T-wolves, etc. The balance is not overloading on that unit so that the game is fun for both sides.

I agree, but with the new Eldar codex it's a case of the supremely strong units being flat-out better that other armies' supreme units. Scatbikers are the best 27 point infantry in the game. Wraithknights are an enormous anti-deathstar unit that is utter death both at range and up close.

 Squidmanlolz wrote:
Scatbikes aren't that scary. Warwalkers can take a better loadout for fewer points, and both can be tar-pitted in close combat.
We haven't seen this codex in action, by any means. People are afraid, mostly due to hype and because of how Decurion effected the metagame. The sky is not falling.
Have we seen point costs on any of the changed units yet? I haven't seen screen caps on any rumor threads.

What unit catches the bikes in CC to tarpit them?? O.o
I love close combat, how have I not heard about a unit that can catch bikes that can zip 48" away in a turn?

Sad thing is, like the Necrons, I could really get behind the Codex because I appreciate how fluffy it is. (Barring the bikes, a heavy weapon on a super fast light chassis feels odd) but like the Exarch's and D-Cannons and etc. if only they cost 20-30% more given the unit in question.

 TheNewBlood wrote:
Wraithknights are an enormous anti-deathstar unit that is utter death both at range and up close.

Up close yeah with Stomp and Initative 5 D attacks (as well as HoW S10). Range output is eh. 2 Str. D shots would only kill two models a turn, and that's if you hit.

Bikes is a valid point though.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

niv-mizzet wrote:

 Squidmanlolz wrote:
Scatbikes aren't that scary. Warwalkers can take a better loadout for fewer points, and both can be tar-pitted in close combat.
We haven't seen this codex in action, by any means. People are afraid, mostly due to hype and because of how Decurion effected the metagame. The sky is not falling.
Have we seen point costs on any of the changed units yet? I haven't seen screen caps on any rumor threads.

What unit catches the bikes in CC to tarpit them?? O.o
I love close combat, how have I not heard about a unit that can catch bikes that can zip 48" away in a turn?

Zhardsnark could

12" Scout, 12" movement, turbo boost 24" and then Tankshock with his rule. Trust the Orks to have an answer for Eldar trickery!

On the bright side, I if I do end up lobbing S7 AP2 ignores cover massive blasts from across the table at BS7, it won't feel cheesy or over the top against the Eldar

 TheNewBlood wrote:

Tsilber wrote:
Well another book, another "sky is falling" pre-book, and how GW is terrible, or hates or whatever...

Play the book as it sits, units look good. Combos are no better than whats obtainable in other books.

Big Str 6 guns on the bikes is fine, whats the ap? do they ignore cover....

The nerf to serpents is nice, but decent tourney players dealt with them before.

Honestly, just like the Tau, Daemon, Space marine, bugs, necrons threads. Wait for the book to be in hand before the "OP" or "Broken" conversations...

The problem is that we already have the biggest issues spoilered to us via confirmed, reliable sources.

It's not the AP on the Scatbikers, it's volume of fire. And yes, Eldar can ignore cover via Divination.

If you don't see a problem with massively undercosted ranged D, I don't know what to tell you.

There's a reason Scatbikers and ranged D are on my avoid list in the OP.

This isn't a "the sky is falling OMGWTFLOLGWsux" thread. The sky has fallen for Eldar players, and I'm trying to find a way to pick up the pieces.

No it is exactly what it is.. "omg sky is falling"..

The book is not even out yet... And all the internet pros are already writing doomsday post to indulge their self righteous opinion.

Oh no range D... woopie, how many shots? ignore cover and saves on a what? Guess is you are smart you know what to go for first?

Oh no volume of fire of str 6 on bikes.. And as you say they have DIV for ignores cover. First off if they are rolling for ignores cover with their eldar, then fear not... Second umm current wave serpents, str 6 and str 7, twin linked, and half the shots auto ignore cover, no need for div spell. So the new bikes are not much of a problem compared to before... Shoot them with pillow guns. Or run em down with a beast pack cover hopping.
.
Or as i said, wait for the book. Honestly, the good or even decent players could careless what a book says, let alone what everyone may think of a book prior to release and prior to anyone with any credentials even playing it. Every book has its strong units and volume of fire or whatever.

But really, as I said, this happens with every book that is released. Then with book in hand they can make a better case for OP things, or wait for maybe 1 or 2 games/bat reps to make up your mind. But when the smoke clears the book finds its place in the 40k gaming world. And the player of the book or against the book finds his place. *See sig below

It certainly looks strong, but has anyone played with the new necron codex?

I'm just hoping as codexes are updated, they all get a similar power level.

Clearly the introduction of D-weapons is to balance the rise of the robot zombies (hint: they're a 'bit good')

niv-mizzet wrote:

 Squidmanlolz wrote:
Scatbikes aren't that scary. Warwalkers can take a better loadout for fewer points, and both can be tar-pitted in close combat.
We haven't seen this codex in action, by any means. People are afraid, mostly due to hype and because of how Decurion effected the metagame. The sky is not falling.
Have we seen point costs on any of the changed units yet? I haven't seen screen caps on any rumor threads.

What unit catches the bikes in CC to tarpit them?? O.o
I love close combat, how have I not heard about a unit that can catch bikes that can zip 48" away in a turn?

Battle Focus does not allow jetbikes to turbo-boost after shooting. Since they are either getting within 12" to shoot, or turbo-boosting away you can bog them down in CC or force them to turbo-boost (limiting their ability to shoot)

EDIT: forgot that Scatter Lasers have a longer range, my point still stands.

As i already said in another thread things could be less bad than it looks on the competitive side.

After giving this a bit of though i'm no longer so negative about it. At least i no longer deem necessary reverting to Codex: Wave Serpent.

Let's do a bit of an analysis, trying to follow this concept:

What is good to the gameplay and fun factor of a friendly/semicompetitive /competitive game? Those are the vast majority of the games being played after all.
I'll go through perceived problems one by one.

1) D Template Wraithguards: A min unit dropped with DE ally can take out pretty much any model in game. The chance to take out a land raider is close to 100% with 5 guys, but the unit also costs more than a LR. Something bigger can counter an AD Lance with ease, but the cost starts getting high. Contrarily to the Farsight bomb, they have no mobility to get out of there, and no uber commander to increase survivability. Once dropped they are dead. Taking a squad would be betting on the chance that the enemy is bringing a suitable target, I.E. a model/unit where i can apply 300-350 points of damage in a shooting phase, or is using an army that can't shut them down reliably before a second shooting phase comes. This makes them the counter to:

a) Knights and AD Lance in particular
b) Decurion, they negate their resilience and have good chances to get a second round of shooting (wraiths can't assault those guys and survive overwatch)
c) Tank units
d) Nice way to get rid of Thunderfire cannons
e) Thunderwolves
f) Any deathstar if you can negate invisibility (highly possible with eldar)

In conclusion those guys punish cheese choices (with the exception of point C, poor guards). I dont' see a reason why i wouldn't like to see those in my LGS.

2) A similar analysis can be done on the Hemlock. Sure it has scary firepower, but again we are talking about a lot of points for a 10/10/10, and those blasts can miss. High risk/high reward unit. I like it.

3) Vaul's wrath. If the points remain the same then those things have a scary amount of firepower for their cost. Will have to see the details. There again, they have range 24 on an artillery, so they do have some drawbacks.

4) Bikes. No excuses here, they need something to keep them in check.
5) WKs. No counters in the game except for one unit in one codex that is already getting abused. Exceedingly undercoster. Definitely no go.



So in conclusion:

1) No WKs.
2) 1 in 3 weapons for bikes

And nothing else. With those rulings, the eldar look like a really fun army to play against, and at the same time "heal" our competitive meta a bit, by adding counters to the most cheesy lists. Sure they do have counter to anything in the game and always in a cost efficient way, but that's the eldar's way of doing things. It's not like they don't pay a price on model costs and durability for that. They are the faction that can reap nice rewards but heavily punishes any mistake. What's not to like?