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Gurus:
I'm running my first tourney. We have a growing group in our little town(s) and Im trying to build a community. The LOS blocking terrain will be there but it will be sparse. Looking like: White sheet Ice table, FAT mat wasteland w GW craters, GW mat w forests.

I was thinking LVO scenerios.
The rules Ive set:
-1250 GW Codicies + Supps
- Battle Forged
- No FW (only 2 of us have them)
- No LoW
- No Super Heavies (1plyr has IKs)

Think we'll have 6-8 players
We'll have the following: Eldar, AM/MT, GK, CSM, Tau, Orks(me), Necrons, then maybe DE/Eld, Nids or IH.

Couple of questions.
Prize Support? Thinking of $25 gift cert to FLGS (60miles away LOL).
How to treat my army IF they play and win?
Any suggestions?
How do I pair? Random? Then... 1st vs 2nd? 3rd vs 4th? Etc.

Other problems youve had that I could learn from? 50% are nOObs.

a. Pre-printed score sheets with:

Scoring Sheet already set up. You write their names in, where players just circle what they achieved, FB, WL, LB and they points they earned for W/L/D.

If you are going to have Best Paint & Sportmanship, then at the bottom, have places for players to write in their favs.

b. Preprint the missions and have a hand out for every player.

LVO scenarios are good, but I continue to dislike scoring at Turn's End, too skewing in favor of going second.

However, if your players are unfamiliar with LVO, you can't go wrong with Crusade (always 5 objectives) & Big Guns. Throw in one Maelstrom if they are good about playing those. Cards aren't needed. Maybe include spaces for those Objectives to be written in, Turns 1 - 7.

c.Number your tables (index card/felt) and for each round, you can post on whiteboard or call out, as 6 to 8 ain't so many.

d. Announce end times and get / use a timer. 1250 point games sound like 1:45 to 2 comfy hours.

e. pairing: random for Round 1, then use the Swiss system. Look it up for a better explanation than I could give you.

f.

doctor_g wrote:How to treat my army IF they play and win?

You are the TO, you get nothing, even if you table the guy getting a 'buy'. He gets full points. It keeps the integrity of the event (and you) beyond question.

Thanks Brother. I think keeping it simple might be a better choice, I just like the option of secondary for horde armies.

Thanks for the pre-printed scoresheet reminder. I would've forgotten that. I doubt every player has their own deck for maelstrom objectives

Of course I wouldn't take the prize... especially since I paid for it. That'd be lame. PLUS orks... so no chance anyway. But the bye player gets full points?

 doktor_g wrote:
Thanks Brother. I think keeping it simple might be a better choice, I just like the option of secondary for horde armies.

You're right to keep it in mind. Having secondary missions is a good choice for variety. To include it you should go with you gut as you know your peeps, you know if they can handle it or not.

- - - - - - - - - - -

What's your planned points spread?

17 - 8 - 4
w - l - d?

BAO/LVO? 10 points earned in the battle to win the game, then 1000 - 500 - 0 for each the tourney? So full points would be 3030 points?

 doktor_g wrote:
Of course I wouldn't take the prize... especially since I paid for it. That'd be lame. PLUS orks... so no chance anyway. But the bye player gets full points?

Sorry if I construed, implied that you would. That was not meant in tone of my text. The 'Net does have a loss of nicity (we're good, man. ).

And, well, of course, orks.

But, my regular TO does that; giving full points. It sucks having shown up and then being told, "Sorry, you're benched for 2 hours." A full pass keeps salt out of the wound for that unlucky guy. I think anything less would *really* cause rabblerabblerablegrumblegrumble. And, yeah, the player getting the buy does have an easier time to taking top spot.

How about if the bye player gets 85% of the points instead of full? That way the other player who worked hard to defeat 3 opponents, getting *his* full points, can still have his slight edge over the guy who only beat two opponents? 90%?

Buy is usually an average of the amount of points the winners recieved during the round,

So say One person who won got 20 points, another winner got 15, and another got 10.

The buy would get 15 points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You also usually give a buy to last place.

Always play as the ringer (byes suck when rounds are 2+ hours) or have a ringer available if odd numbers.

As for who to play with the bye and bye scoring.

Typically play a player near the bottom tables (often the bottom, but if 2 players have a closer score in last and second to last, than they do to the guy in 3rd to last, let them play each other and play the guy in 3rd to last.)

For scoring I always go with. If they beat me they get what ever score they actually earn. If they lose it counts as a draw at worst. Giving an auto-win (average or max points) screws more with overall standings. So say you are playing the last place player who presumably lost horribly in round 1. If he auto gets a high points win...he ends up playing a player in the next round who has a ton of points.

Which can lead to someone....playing a strong player getting tabled, getting tabled by the ringer (scoring max points), then playing an upper middle tier player and getting tabled again. Which is no fun for that player.

Worse than that is a bye. The player gets a first round bye (sucks as he doesn't get to play), and gets say max points (what if he is really bad) now he plays the top player in round 2 and gets stomped....just bad overall, as he is now probably in the middle and may get stomped again.

Byes are bad...always have a ringer even if it is you.

Breng77 wrote:
If they beat me they get what ever score they actually earn. If they lose it counts as a draw at worst. Giving an auto-win (average or max points) screws more with overall standings. So say you are playing the last place player who presumably lost horribly in round 1. If he auto gets a high points win...he ends up playing a player in the next round who has a ton of points..

I like this and will pass it along to my TO.

Doc:
How'd it go?

next week. Will update. Trying to coordinate with everyones jobs.
G

1) Stick with the Book Scenarios. I'd recommend running EW over Mael for simplicity sake, just don't try and mix them. Don't use the LVO scenarios (or any of them for that matter).

2) Scorecards ready to go makes it easier to keep track and provides a way to find mistakes, which can easily happen at your first event.

3) Ringers for odd number of players. Depending on how you score it, I've always counted a win against the ringer as a full win, or a loss as a draw. Your odd man out will often be the lowest ranked player, so don't make it a super competitive list.

4) POST RESULTS. Let players see their results, especially if you keep the categories separate, so those that want to improve know where they can.

In the case of an odd number of players with an event of 6-8 participants, you have to give the Bye full points for the round, or you're hosing the guy who gets the Bye in R1; he should just go home, he can't win. if the Bye receives less than full points for the round then, numerically, they can never achieve enough points to beat a player who played all of his games and won them with max points.

To put it another way, in a tournament with 20 points potential per round, if you give the R1 Bye say, 17 points, then he's done, he can't beat the guy who plays three games and gets 20 each round. One the one hand, the dude who kicked ass and got those points definitely deserves his win, on the other hand you're giving the Bye out randomly in R1 then you're effectively picking someone who can't win.

That being said, in an event with soft scores there's some modification of the results. Regardless, it's better to just give the Bye max points than trying to figure out a different number and create potential problems at the end of the event. It really only matters to the guy who gets the R1 Bye, since he could presumably win the event. Swiss tournament formats take a couple rounds to kick into gear and as of R2 the Bye is going to a guy who lost and is therefore out of the running anyway. So, you give out max points because it guarantees you don't screw the guy who gets it in R1 and it's effectively irrelevant from that point on.

As the TO, though it's easy to solve the problem. If you get 7 players, then you play. If you get 8, then you just judge the event and that way one of the group doesn't have to sit around playing watchhammer for two hours. And you can take lots of pictures, live tweet results, etc.

I run the event at Game Empire every month (http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/629731.page), feel free to PM me with questions.

 disdainful wrote:
In the case of an odd number of players with an event of 6-8 participants, you have to give the Bye full points for the round, or you're hosing the guy who gets the Bye in R1; he should just go home, he can't win. if the Bye receives less than full points for the round then, numerically, they can never achieve enough points to beat a player who played all of his games and won them with max points.

To put it another way, in a tournament with 20 points potential per round, if you give the R1 Bye say, 17 points, then he's done, he can't beat the guy who plays three games and gets 20 each round. One the one hand, the dude who kicked ass and got those points definitely deserves his win, on the other hand you're giving the Bye out randomly in R1 then you're effectively picking someone who can't win.

That being said, in an event with soft scores there's some modification of the results. Regardless, it's better to just give the Bye max points than trying to figure out a different number and create potential problems at the end of the event. It really only matters to the guy who gets the R1 Bye, since he could presumably win the event. Swiss tournament formats take a couple rounds to kick into gear and as of R2 the Bye is going to a guy who lost and is therefore out of the running anyway. So, you give out max points because it guarantees you don't screw the guy who gets it in R1 and it's effectively irrelevant from that point on.

As the TO, though it's easy to solve the problem. If you get 7 players, then you play. If you get 8, then you just judge the event and that way one of the group doesn't have to sit around playing watchhammer for two hours. And you can take lots of pictures, live tweet results, etc.

I run the event at Game Empire every month (http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/629731.page), feel free to PM me with questions.

My stance on Byes notwithstanding (don't have them they are bad.) This is also not true at all for tournaments with 8 or fewer players but rather only with larger events. In a 3 round event with 8 or fewer players you will only have one undefeated player so giving the bye (which you shouldn't have) player say 15 out of 20 points simply means that if he wins his second game and loses to the guy that got 20 all 3 rounds on the final table he is hosed. Which he would be even if he had 20 in the first round (as he got beat 20-0). The issue slightly creeps in if the player with two 20 point games loses a close match on the final table and still wins (say he starts up by 5 points and you win by 4) Which is why for best general I always count win loss record first then battle points.


I also disagree that it is irrelevant after round 1. That is only true if we only care about the tournament experience for the player winning the event. As I pointed out above giving out max points often leads to lesser players getting paired with strong players later in the event and not finding their level (guy gets beat 20 -0 round one, gets a bye round 2, so now he is sitting at 20 points and is potentially forced to play a player that max pointed one of his rounds which can lead to uneven match-ups.)

What you can do of byes if you really want is onlys score them at the end of the event and count them as the average of that players other games. So if he wins 20-0 in 2 games he gets 20 points, if he gets a draw and a win he gets say 15.

So as you said, always ring...byes suck for everyone.

So I think I'll work the bye as follows. If there's an odd number of players I will play as Orks. I'll play hard... if they lose they get the points they get. If I win, I am awarded zero points and play the next last place guy/gal.

Here's the PRELIMINARY sheet. Feedback would be appreciated. It will be played like the LVO. Scoring at the end of the turn. The oly thing I'm not too sure on is Before Every Game #9. It's RAW, I think, but too much of an advantage?



Here's all the terrain I have. Might be light for 4 tables. We're getting another FAT Mat. I have a GW green one and one of the tables is painted already.

Cheap Area Terrain ... which, yeah, I know doesn't exist in 7e ... or was that 6e? 4e for certain ....

Anyway, cheaply purchased felt, green, and a few 'plants' for aquarium fish tanks. The 'plants' are movable for models entering and you gain some more features for you tables.

Where's your tourney gonna happen? I'd be interested to follow up if you have other places you'll post things.

That is too much terrain for one table, imo. Not everyone plays footslogging or skimmers. I always use the 25% rule for 40K

 Bahkara wrote:
That is too much terrain for one table, imo. Not everyone plays footslogging or skimmers. I always use the 25% rule for 40K

Bah. Kara.

That is *all* the terrain he has. For four tables. That is, distributed between four tables.

At least, as I understood the post.

Then it's perfect

One of my soapboxes is Terrain. Please consider all of the below as suggestion and use it, or ignore it, as you will.

Some cheap mesas (3" high or so) will help with blocking line of sight. A pair of them, maybe a square foot each (or thereabouts) per table. Play them as open-topped, requiring 3" of DT movement to climb/drive up and down. Random link to how to make them: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkjGrDPQdog <-- The Terrain Tutor. I like his stuff.

I don't know where 25% terrain comes from. I understand, in large tournaments (where 'large' = more than 8 tables), that it incredibly difficult, if not logistically impossible, to get a good amount of terrain. In the guidelines for terrain (From 6th, as I remember it. I haven't bothered to look them back up.), each 2' by 2' square was supposed to have a D3 rolled to indicate the number of pieces of terrain. The average of 6D3 is 12...which is a lot of terrain, and certainly more than I've ever played with. Tournaments often provide only 6 pieces. That is woefully inadequate. Try for 8 meaningful pieces if you can.

Terrain is a significant balancing factor, both in the amount/type of terrain and in its placement. Player-placed terrain (dicing off for it and placing it before determining Deployment Zones and with a 4" restriction from table edge and other pieces of terrain) gives assault based armies better chances to deny their opponents wide-open firing lanes, which is always the direct result of the default-to-symmetry approach of TOs (and of players when made to 'agree' on terrain). It foils parking lots. It also allows armies facing off against the dreaded Ranged D (and, in my case, the despised Imperial Knight) to create choke points and overlapping pieces of LoS terrain, denying (again) easy shots and at least forcing Super Heavies to roll those DTs.

I have played against a number of Lords of War (and against Imperial Knights numerous times), both with my tournament Eldar AND with my CSM (Noise Marines 4 Life!). At the Renegade Open (a decent sized tournament), I faced a Lynx on a Skyshield Landing Pad in my first game, and won. I won because I was able to pick the biggest hill, place it where I wanted it, and hide a Wave Serpent and a Venom behind it (AND because my opponent didn't want to leave the landing pad). I destroyed the Lynx on Turn 2 when everything came in from reserves. While my record with my CSM isn't great, I did steal a win from a guy fielding a Stormlord? Banelord? Stormbane? the one with the S10 AP1 Ignores Cover cannon. I won in part because it was his first time playing it, whereas I had 6+ games vs. Super Heavies, but also because I created a ridge-line of hills down the middle of the table (Vanguard deployment), giving me an extra turn to position units.

TLDR: Terrain density & type, and player-placed terrain, is a key part of the game that should not be ignored.

Tomorrow's the big day. I'll update the thread on how I think it went over. Here are the tables. I think we will actually have 3 fat mats that will replace the ugly GW WFB one.

Thanks for all your help. I will consider player placed terrain when everyone has more experience. I didn't want the inexperienced folks to place poorly. And I wanted it to be quick.

 doktor_g wrote:
Tomorrow's the big day. I'll update the thread on how I think it went over. Here are the tables. I think we will actually have 3 fat mats that will replace the ugly GW WFB one.

Thanks for all your help. I will consider player placed terrain when everyone has more experience. I didn't want the inexperienced folks to place poorly. And I wanted it to be quick.

Those look good. I'd have no problem playing on those tables.

 OverwatchCNC wrote:
Those look good. I'd have no problem playing on those tables.

Ditto. Looks good.

Well everyone I apologize but I think I must have deleted EVERY picture from the tournament. Brothererekose PM'd me yesterday asking how it went.

It went great!

The participants were as follows:

Ben - Militarum Tempestus with lots of the Stalin's organs. Also had a plasmacutioner I think along with some deepstriking scions.

Carrie - Decurion Necrons. She had Two ghost arcs. Two Night scythes. One Doom Scythe and some tomb blades.

Eli - Farsight Enclaves. Crisis team with maxed markers. Two Riptides if I recall correctly and LOTS of firewarriors.

Josh - Grey Knights. Termies and Dreadknights (two I think)

Lucas - CSM. His list was basically what he gets cheap on EBay. Fortunately he has a Daemon Prince and two helldrakes forming the backbone of his army.

Matt - Eldar. Surprisingly he didnt' take Craftworld. What a guy! He's the favored player in the tourney and limitations placed were intentionally to handicap him. He opted for iyanden and serpents.

ROUND ONE: Randomized by first name

CSM v Eldar: Not surprisingly the least experienced player, Lucas, succumed to coriscating Eldar energy weapons by T2.

MT v Decuri'crons: Some tactical mistakes by Carrie allowed lots deepstriking scions to hamstring her by turn two with regards to mobility and taking objectives. Her reserve rolls were pretty dismal getting her air superiority on the table two. MT victory.

Grey Knights v Tau: A surprisingly good showing from the tau. Josh is new to the Knights and struggled under whithering Tau ranged fire.

ROUND TWO:

I was drinking by this point... that's why I took pictures.... (sorry)


ROUND THREE:
MT v Decuri'crons: Rematch. Although I tried to keep this from happening, I just couldn't do it without really messing up the rankings. Better decisions this time by Carrie, but MT was going for the throat MT victory.

Eldar v Tau: A good match up. Traditional foes in our group. Eldar victory.

Grey Knights v CSM: Ouch. Hard on our new guy. Grey Knights came out on top.


Final Rankings:
6. CSM - 2 Drakes
5. Decuri'crons - Air superiority list.
4. Grey Knights - Strong Showing for J-dog
3. Tau - barely lost by points to
2. MT - eked out 2nd place by 2 or 3 points
1. Iyanden - Not surprisingly. Shrewd player. Mediocre list. Lots of handicaps. Well deserved.

Glad it went well. You're going to turn it into an on-going thing, yes?

Probably! Everyone had fun. For a town of 3000 having 6-8 players is pretty amazing.